>> I concede. Once upon a time vaccines wiped out small pox.
>> Vaccines need to be used where there is squalor and filth. NOT in
>> every home in America. Not by a long shot.
>> The majority of the vacc game is a hardcore scam. Like the cholesterol
>> game, designed to make physicians and big Pharma investors rich and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>died from Hib meningitis. Before vaccines, about 50 people died a year
>from chicken pox.
>I don't consider vaccines that save lives and prevent illness barbaric.
On Mar 4, 1:37 pm, b...@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu wrote:
> In article <Gwfzj.8758$1_.2212@trnddc02>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> None of the diseases commonly vaccinated against in North America
> are associated with squalor or filth.
Like tetnus? or hepatitis? I'm going to need a reference.
Not whooping cough, not
> diphtheria, not measles, not rubella, not mumps, not chicken pox,
> not Hib meningitis, not tetanus, not pneumococcus, not influenza.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> >died from Hib meningitis. Before vaccines, about 50 people died a year
> >from chicken pox.
>>>>How many of those children had pre-existing infirmities?
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> unvaccinated and those for whom the vaccine didn't take. (No
> vaccine is effective in 100% of recipients.)
>>>I'd like to see ALL the references on this assertion. Make sure we include those who contracted the disease whether they either previously vaccinated or not at all.
>>>Also consider the native American who was wiped out in droves by influenza during the initial phases of European immigration. They stopped dying becaude they began developing natural immunity which holds true in today's "unimmunized" populations.
> >I don't consider vaccines that save lives and prevent illness barbaric.
>
> Hear, hear. People have forgotten what life was like before vaccines
> were available for many of these illnesses. No matter how clean the
> environment, no matter how careful the parents, children got sick
> and suffered, and some died or became permanently disabled.
>>>...and how many once perfectly healthy children are permanently injured or dead because of today's vaccines?
This case:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/03/05/autism.vaccines.ap/index.html
is very interesting because it emphasizes one major point. Vaccines
can and do make perfectly healthy children very sick or worse. They
may also maje sick children sicker or worse.
It's a crap shoot at best.
I do believe it has it's place but not as a blanket policy.
Elwood - 06 Mar 2008 04:16 GMT
> On Mar 4, 1:37 pm, b...@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 81 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
One other thing. You want to roll the dice with your kids health?
This could just as easily been an MMR lot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg-52mHIjhs
Jeff - 06 Mar 2008 15:57 GMT
> On Mar 4, 1:37 pm, b...@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu wrote:
>> In article <Gwfzj.8758$1_.2212@trnddc02>,
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
>
> I do believe it has it's place but not as a blanket policy.
Actually, it's not exactly a crap shot. Vaccines increase the odds of a
healthy childhood and the odds of getting to adulthood.
Nothing is without risks. But with vaccines, the benefits outweigh the
risks.
jeff
bae@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu - 06 Mar 2008 16:11 GMT
>On Mar 4, 1:37 pm, b...@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu wrote:
>> In article <Gwfzj.8758$1_.2212@trnddc02>,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Like tetnus? or hepatitis? I'm going to need a reference.
Most soils contain tetanus spores, so you are at risk for tetanus
if you garden or do anything outdoors that might involve soil
getting into a wound. Or, since soil finds its way indoors, and
tetanus spores are incredibly hardy, even indoors. Most cases of
tetanus in developed countries result from trivial wounds these
days, since doctors routinely administer tetanus antiserum to
people with serious wounds if they haven't been recently vaccinated.
Hep A is common in countries with poor public sanitation, but healthy
carriers are common. We had a small outbreak here in Toronto traced
to a food handler in a deli. IIRC, Hep A isn't a reportable disease
in the US as it is here, so nobody bothers to trace outbreaks. But
AFAIK, it isn't a target for mass vaccination either.
Hep B is spread by body fluids, including saliva, so people who kiss,
or little kids who put things in their mouths and share toys are at
risk. Hep B is insidious, because only a small fraction of people
who are infected show obvious symptoms, but about a third of those
infected become carriers and over decades the action of the virus
on the liver promotes liver cancer is many of them.
I don't intend to provide you with references. If you actually want
to learn about infectious disease there are many reliable sources on
the web, such as the CDC and the WHO, as well as libraries.
>> >Measles kills about 1 in 2000 people who get measles. And leaves about
>> >the same number with permanent brain injury. Rubella used to be a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>>>>>How many of those children had pre-existing infirmities?
The death rate is higher in people with pre-existing conditions,
but all these diseases can kill or disable people who were perfectly
healthy before they acquired them. Note that immunizing the general
population protects people who aren't or can't be immunized, as long
as there aren't too many of them.
>> Every time a policy of widespread vaccination is let slide, these
>> diseases reemerge and take a toll. A few unvaccinated children
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>include those who contracted the disease whether they either previously
>vaccinated or not at all.
"All" the references would fill a library. Which assertions are you
questioning? That not everyone who is vaccinated acquires immunity?
That's well-known. It's also well known that not all vaccines
provide life long immunity, hence the need to repeat them at intervals.
That lapses in coverage result in outbreaks? You can see that in recent
outbreaks of measles, polio and pertussis in the US, the serious outbreak
of diphtheria in the former Soviet Union that killed one in ten of those
affected, mostly young women who acquired it from their children, and
the resurgence of pertussis in Japan after vaccination was stopped for
a few years, etc.
A few susceptible people in an immune population have no one to acquire
the disease from, and if one does get it somehow, and only contacts
immune people while they are contagious, they can't give it to anyone
else. This works even for vaccines that have a relatively low rate
of effectiveness like pertussis. If you can't see the logic of this,
read up on 'herd immunity'.
>>>>Also consider the native American who was wiped out in droves by
>influenza during the initial phases of European immigration. They
>stopped dying becaude they began developing natural immunity which holds
>true in today's "unimmunized" populations.
Well, no. Native Americans are just as susceptible to influenza as
anybody else. The diseases that wiped them out (current estimates
are that 90% of the native population died from disease brought from
Europe in the first few generations after contact) were mostly
vaccine preventable diseases like smallpox and measles, and others
like cholera, typhoid and bubonic plague. The epidemiology of
influenza is much different, and depends on rapid transportation
to cross oceans. A sailing ship just doesn't hold enough people
to keep an influenza outbreak going for the time it takes to cross
an ocean.
There are a number of reasons that these diseases were so devastating
to American populations. One is that the native people hadn't been
exposed to them for millennia as peoples of the Old World had, which
might have provided some benefit from natural selection, but the main
one was that since no one was immune, everybody got sick at once. In
a population where a disease is endemic, either people get it as
children, or it sweeps through every so often affecting those it didn't
get in its previous sweeps. I.e. adults are mostly immune, victims are
mostly children and teens.
When everyone is sick at once, sick people have to struggle to provide
the necessities of life -- food, water, fuel -- so the sick get sicker
and the sicker die from the lack of basic care. It wasn't uncommon
for entire villages to be wiped out by smallpox or measles or plague,
just as plague killed whole villages in Europe in its first sweep,
and the influenza epidemic after 1918 took an even more devastating
toll when it struck isolated communities than in cities. Note that
the inability of the sick and dying to tend crops or gather provisions
for winter often resulted in starvation for the survivors.
Other contributing factors were that the native peoples of the Americas
had never encountered epidemic disease before so they had not developed
cultural practices like quarantine, and that the diseases hit one after
another, far in advance of the spread of Europeans, hitting people who
hadn't recovered from the previous epidemic, people who were demoralized
by loss of their families and friends, culturally hampered by the loss
of local experts in skills required for long term survival, unable to
understand their fate because the epidemics had no precedent and their
traditional healing practices had no effect.
If you really want to understand these matters, you'll have to do
some reading on epidemiology and the effects of infectious diseases
on history in many parts of the world. There are some non-technical
works you can read. Perhaps a librarian can help you find them.
>>>>...and how many once perfectly healthy children are permanently
>injured or dead because of today's vaccines?
Far fewer than were injured or killed by the diseases themselves
before vaccination.
Note that it's been safe to stop vaccinating for smallpox in
developed countries for about 40 or 50 years now, even in advance
of the eradication of the disease worldwide. Ideally it will be
safe to do so for polio eventually, and possibly measles, but not
yet. And the road to that time leads through mass vaccination.
For diseases that affect only humans, that don't produce carriers,
that can't survive long outside a host, once the disease has no one
to spread to, it's effectively extinct. Few infectious disease
meet all these criteria.
>It's a crap shoot at best.
It's an imperfect world. You can do your best, you can throw up
your hands, or you can close your eyes and pretend it can't happen,
or can't happen to people like you.
Elwood - 06 Mar 2008 19:38 GMT
On Mar 6, 11:11 am, b...@cs.toronto.no-uce.edu wrote:
> In article <555a9a88-9a35-442e-996c-7a91c2250...@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 152 lines]
> your hands, or you can close your eyes and pretend it can't happen,
> or can't happen to people like you.
Thank you for your eloquence