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Medical Forum / General / General / February 2008

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Don't Treat The Old And Unhealthy, Say Progressive British Doctors

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(David P.) - 03 Feb 2008 16:11 GMT
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1960224/posts

UK: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors

The Telegraph, 1/26/08
Laura Donnelly, Health Correspondent

Doctors are calling for NHS treatment to be
withheld from patients who are too old or
who lead unhealthy lives.

Smokers, heavy drinkers, the obese and
the elderly should be barred from receiving
some operations, according to doctors, with
most saying the health service cannot afford
to provide free care to everyone.

Fertility treatment and "social" abortions
are also on the list of procedures that many
doctors say should not be funded by the state.

The findings of a survey conducted by Doctor
magazine sparked a fierce row last night, with
the British Medical Assn & campaign groups
describing the recommendations from family
& hospital doctors as "outrageous" & "disgraceful".

About one in 10 hospitals already deny some
surgery to obese patients and smokers, with
restrictions most common in hospitals battling
debt.

Managers defend the policies because of the
higher risk of complications on the operating
table for unfit patients. But critics believe that
patients are being denied care simply to save money.

The Government announced plans last week
to offer fat people cash incentives to diet and
exercise as part of a desperate strategy to steer
Britain off a course that will otherwise see half
the population dangerously overweight by 2050.

Obesity costs the British taxpayer L7 billion/year.
Overweight people are more likely to contract
diabetes, cancer & heart disease, & to require
replacement joints or stomach-stapling operations.

Meanwhile, L1.7 billion is spent treating diseases
caused by smoking, such as lung cancer, bronchitis
and emphysema, with a similar sum spent by the
NHS on alcohol problems. Cases of cirrhosis have
tripled over the past decade.

Among the survey of 870 family & hospital doctors,
almost 60 per cent said the NHS could not provide
full healthcare to everyone & that some individuals
should pay for services.

One in three said that elderly patients should not
be given free treatment if it were unlikely to do them
good for long. Half thought that smokers should be
denied a heart bypass, while a quarter believed that
the obese should be denied hip replacements.

Tony Calland, chairman of the BMA's ethics
committee, said it would be "outrageous" to limit care
on age grounds. Age Concern called the doctors'
views "disgraceful".

Gordon Brown promised this month that a new NHS
constitution would set out people's "responsibilities"
as well as their rights, a move interpreted as meaning
restrictions on patients who bring health problems on
themselves. The only sanction threatened so far,
however, is to send patients to the bottom of the
waiting list if they miss appointments.

The survey found that medical professionals wanted
to go much further in denying care to patients who
do not look after their bodies.

Ninety-four per cent said that an alcoholic who
refused to stop drinking should not be allowed a
liver transplant, while one in five said taxpayers
should not pay for "social abortions" and fertility
treatment.

Paul Mason, a GP in Portland, Dorset, said there
were good clinical reasons for denying surgery
to some patients. "The issue is: how much
responsibility do people take for their health?" he said.

"If an alcoholic is going to drink himself to death
then that is really sad, but if he gets the liver
transplant that is denied to someone else who
could have got the chance of life then that is a
tragedy." He said the case of George Best, who
drank himself to death in 2005, 3 years after a liver
transplant, had damaged the argument that
drinkers deserved a second chance.

However, Roger Williams, who carried out the
2002 transplant on the former footballer, said
doctors could never be sure if an alcoholic would
return to drinking, although most would expect a
detailed psychological assessment of patients,
who would be required to abstain for 6 months
before surgery.

Prof Williams said: "Less than 5 per cent of
alcoholics who have a transplant return to serious
drinking. George was one of them. It is actually
a pretty successful rate. I think the judgment these
doctors are making is nothing to do with the
clinical reasons for limiting such operations and
purely a moral decision."

Katherine Murphy, from the Patients' Assn, said
it would be wrong to deny treatment because of
a "lifestyle" factor. "The decision taken by the
doctor has to be the best clinical one, and it has
to be taken individually. It is morally wrong to
deny care on any other grounds," she said.

Responding to the survey's findings on the
treatment of the elderly, Dr Calland, of the BMA,
said: "If a patient of 90 needs a hip operation
they should get one. Yes, they might peg out any
time, but it's not our job to play God."
.
.
-
no surrender - 04 Feb 2008 13:26 GMT
> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1960224/posts
>
[quoted text clipped - 126 lines]
> they should get one. Yes, they might peg out any
> time, but it's not our job to play God."
*******
Under a pug-ugly socialist medical system, that is what happens continually
to justify the taxes needed to run it. Yet, there are still misguideds here
who espouse such a montrosity. Someday, hopefully, they learn the free
market and competition are the only ways to achieve truly equal  health
care.

Dennis
> .
> -
(David P.) - 04 Feb 2008 16:53 GMT
> > UK: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> learn the free market and competition are the
> only ways to achieve truly equal health care.

If you want to solve big problems, you
have to look at the big picture!   The
big picture is NOT just the living.  It
includes everybody and everything, past
present & future, as far as you can see!
And if you can't see very far, your
opinion ain't worth much!
.
.
--
no surrender - 04 Feb 2008 21:45 GMT
> > > UK: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> And if you can't see very far, your
> opinion ain't worth much!
*****
That's often the propblem with "big Picture" types...they can't see the
forest for all those damned trees that inconveniently get in the way of
their clear vision for all those around them. I mean, how the hell are they
supposed to see for all the others when they can't see for themselves
because all those damned trees get in the way...God dammit?

Dennis
> .
> .
> --
Jerry Okamura - 04 Feb 2008 17:07 GMT
>> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1960224/posts
>>
[quoted text clipped - 134 lines]
> market and competition are the only ways to achieve truly equal  health
> care.

Yep....  Someday, some of these people will discorver that they will show up
to receive this "free" benefit, and will be turned away.   And in time,
there will be more and more of them.
no surrender - 04 Feb 2008 21:46 GMT
> > "(David P.)" <imbibe@mindspring.com> wrote in message

news:44960611-22e1-4c42-8019-5bdff4f87afe@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> >> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1960224/posts
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 138 lines]
> to receive this "free" benefit, and will be turned away.   And in time,
> there will be more and more of them.
****
Oh yeah, the ultimate in "buyer's remorse."

Dennis
Kris Baker - 07 Feb 2008 02:00 GMT
> Yep....  Someday, some of these people will discorver that they will show
> up to receive this "free" benefit, and will be turned away.   And in time,
> there will be more and more of them.

My FIL sounds like you, and gets mad when he's reminded
that he's alive ONLY due to Medicare.

Just who are you politically against, anyway?

Kris
Jerry Okamura - 07 Feb 2008 18:07 GMT
>> Yep....  Someday, some of these people will discorver that they will show
>> up to receive this "free" benefit, and will be turned away.   And in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Just who are you politically against, anyway?

I believe this third party payment system for medical care, will create more
problems than it solves.  It is not a political thing at all, since no one
in either party shares my concern.
mg - 04 Feb 2008 22:31 GMT
If you read the article, you will see that some doctors are merely
advocating the withholding of some types of surgery. They are not
advocating withholding all treatment.

The title of the article and the title of your post are both
misleading.

> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1960224/posts
>
[quoted text clipped - 126 lines]
> they should get one. Yes, they might peg out any
> time, but it's not our job to play God."
Kris Baker - 04 Feb 2008 22:39 GMT
> If you read the article, you will see that some doctors are merely
> advocating the withholding of some types of surgery. They are not
> advocating withholding all treatment.
>
> The title of the article and the title of your post are both
> misleading.

That was his purpose, since he's trying to make a political
statement.    Kind of like those new versions of the "Barack
Obama is a muslim" hoax emails that link to snopes.com's
rebuttal page , knowing that people who believe that kind
of thing, don't click the link and check for themselves.

But I support some form of treatment withholding, like
with my elderly Alzheimers-ridden MIL a few years
ago, whose husband insisted that she have full treatment
for diabetes, arthritis, and even a lasik surgery after
cataracts treatment.....because, after all, if she could
see better, maybe she'd remember who she was.
Finally she started crying "I want to die, I hurt", she
was put on hospice and meds removed, and she
died within a week.

Kris
mg - 05 Feb 2008 15:48 GMT
> > If you read the article, you will see that some doctors are merely
> > advocating the withholding of some types of surgery. They are not
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Kris

Nobody would want to give a 90-year-old smoker, with a dozen things
wrong with him, a heart-lung transplant, for instance. This is simply
another example of right-wingers setting up a straw man, so they can
get their jollies off by tearing it apart with great indignation.
(David P.) - 05 Feb 2008 16:22 GMT
> > http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1960224/posts
> > UK: Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The title of the article and the title of your post are both
> misleading.

What will the world be like with 9 billion people?
Is it fair to future generations to have to live
under 50% more crowded conditions, and 50% greater
demand for food, fuel, clean air, clean water, and
everything else?
.
.
--
Ken Johnson - 05 Feb 2008 18:54 GMT
> What will the world be like with 9 billion people?
> Is it fair to future generations to have to live
> under 50% more crowded conditions, and 50% greater
> demand for food, fuel, clean air, clean water, and
> everything else?

You can be reasonably certain that the Americans won't suffer anything
like 50% more crowded conditions. Certainly not the white Americans.
The bulk of the overcrowding will be in the poor countries of Asia and
south America, with just enough left over to fill Virgin Trains.

Ken Johnson
(David P.) - 05 Feb 2008 21:08 GMT
> > What will the world be like with 9 billion people?
> > Is it fair to future generations to have to live
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> You can be certain that Americans won't suffer anything
> like 50% more crowded conditions.

You didn't answer the questions!
.
.
--
kirkus vomit - 05 Feb 2008 22:20 GMT
>> > What will the world be like with 9 billion people?
>> > Is it fair to future generations to have to live
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> You didn't answer the questions!

... solution: require everyone to die... oh wait a minute, nevermind

b

> .
> .
> --
California Poppy - 06 Feb 2008 00:20 GMT
Interesting thread.  I agree with the doctors and think that we need
to ration some procedures for some people.  But, I don't agree with
their idea to fail to give abortions for "social reasons".  I would
favor making abortions available to everyone who requested them.  I
see so many old people every day who are living miserable lives.  I
think we should consider the quality of life for the person who is
incapable of choosing for themselves.  I think of those with dementia,
for instance.  We need research to know more about what causes it and
what could cure it.
(David P.) - 06 Feb 2008 03:19 GMT
> we need to ration some procedures for some people.
> I think we should consider the quality of life
> for the person who is...

What about future generations?   Why should
they have to live in more crowded conditions?
.
.
--
Gilchrist - 06 Feb 2008 07:11 GMT
> > we need to ration some procedures for some people.
> > I think we should consider the quality of life
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> .
> --

A nation should be judged on how it treats its poorest citizens.
(David P.) - 09 Feb 2008 23:10 GMT
> > What about future generations?   Why should
> > they have to live in more crowded conditions?
>
> A nation should be judged on
> how it treats its poorest citizens.

A nation's poorest citizens are the
not-yet-born!  They can't speak or vote!
.
.
--
kirkus vomit - 05 Feb 2008 22:17 GMT
>> What will the world be like with 9 billion people?

... um,i'm gonna go with crowded?
<did i win something?

b

> Ken Johnson
(David P.) - 14 Feb 2008 20:43 GMT
> >> What will the world be like with 9 billion people?
>
> ... um,i'm gonna go with crowded?

It's crowded _now_!   Are you saying
there'll be _no_ difference, Peckerwood?
Is that your _final_ answer?!?
.
.
--
zzbunker@netscape.net - 15 Feb 2008 17:02 GMT
> > What will the world be like with 9 billion people?
> > Is it fair to future generations to have to live
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The bulk of the overcrowding will be in the poor countries of Asia and
> south America, with just enough left over to fill Virgin Trains.

  With 50% more idiots Americans and their cars the road,
  America will just spontaneously disintegrate at that
  much sooner. So the only people who wpuld care are just the
  idiot Cities.

> Ken Johnson
 
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