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Medical Forum / General / General / December 2007Carbon monoxide most humane method of execution ?
Give them ten years to prove their innocence and exhaust all appeals and then maybe this might be the method of choice. Many people die in their sleep in faulty gas boilers. A sleeping pill to the murderer and then co piped into his room.. > Give them ten years to prove their innocence and exhaust all > appeals and then maybe this might be the method of choice. > Many people die in their sleep in faulty gas boilers. Just goes to show how dangerous sleeping in gas boilers can be. >> Give them ten years to prove their innocence and exhaust all >> appeals and then maybe this might be the method of choice. >> Many people die in their sleep in faulty gas boilers. > > Just goes to show how dangerous sleeping in gas boilers can be. Yeah, don't do it.  Signature___ _______ ___ ___ ___ __ ____ / _ \/ __/ _ | / _ \ / _ \/ _ |/ / / / / / // / _// __ |/ // / / ___/ __ / /_/ / /__ /____/___/_/ |_/____/ /_/ /_/ |_\____/____/ > Give them ten years to prove their innocence and exhaust all > appeals and then maybe this might be the method of choice. > Many people die in their sleep in faulty gas boilers. A > sleeping pill to the murderer and then co piped into his room.. The Nazis opted for carbon monoxide at first, but found it unreliable. Even easier, safer and perhaps more painless, would be a chamber where the oxygen is reduced and nitrogen was substituted. If you are in an aircraft that flies very high where the air is thin, and the cabin loses pressure, you simply drift into sleep. >The Nazis opted for carbon monoxide at first, but found it unreliable. I think it would be a reliable killer if the chamber was well circulated and enough CO was piped in to raise the concentration to LD100. For whatever reason, it would appear they weren't able to do that. With inefficient circulation, a more toxic substance would be advantageous. (How horrible it feels to discuss gas chamber technicalities in this way!) >Even easier, safer and perhaps more painless, would be a chamber where the >oxygen is reduced and nitrogen was substituted. If you are in an aircraft >that flies very high where the air is thin, and the cabin loses pressure, >you simply drift into sleep. It depends on the altitude (and hence O2 concentration). At high enough altitudes, loss of consciousness can be quite sudden. That's why it is imperative that one puts on one's own oxygen mask first, before attempting to help others. (Useful table here: http://www.theairlinepilots.com/medical/decompressionandhypoxia.htm ) Francis > >The Nazis opted for carbon monoxide at first, but found it unreliable. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > would be advantageous. (How horrible it feels to discuss gas > chamber technicalities in this way!) For people with a strong stomach, I recommend various books over the years on the mechanics of execution. Pierrepoints autobiography is a starting point. There is a book called "Until you are dead" which is quite informative. And IIRC theres "A history of cruel and unusual punishments" which is a good taster. Wikipedia is also quite informative - with full colour links. Many years ago a friends father (policeman) had some books which I *think* were only available to serving officers. One was quite old, and detailed a Victorian travellers experience of execution somewhere in Africa or Asia, where the prisoner was tied between two springy trees held down with rope. The tie ropes were cut to spring the trees apart - you can guess the rest. > >Even easier, safer and perhaps more painless, would be a chamber where the > >oxygen is reduced and nitrogen was substituted. If you are in an aircraft [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > (Useful table here:http://www.theairlinepilots.com/medical/decompressionandhypoxia.htm) As an opponent of the death penalty, I find it grimly amusing that it's proponents go to such lengths to salve their conciences about the methods. I'm sure I read that one US state had to suspend use of their electric chair, as the leather restraints weren't padded, and there was a very real danger of chafing. I wonder, if capital punishment were ever re-introduced in the UK, what H&S would make of the condemned cell ..... > As an opponent of the death penalty, I find it grimly amusing that > it's proponents go to such lengths to salve their conciences about the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I wonder, if capital punishment were ever re-introduced in the UK, > what H&S would make of the condemned cell ..... A fascinating documentary to watch is "Mr Death", by the self-styled expert in designing and repairing execution equipment in the USA, Fred Leuchter. It is rather terrifiying that a chap who is little better than a self-taught handyman was relied upon by so many correctional facilities to design and maintain their execution chambers. And then of course he got himself involved in the Auschwitz debate, but that's another story. The Americans seem to have been obsessed with creating a civilised, hygienic and non-distressing form of execution but they haven't yet managed anything which works better than the British method of hanging. Electrocution all too often results in a prolonged and agonising death, the chamber smelling of smoke and burning flesh. > The Americans seem to have been obsessed with creating a civilised, hygienic > and non-distressing form of execution but they haven't yet managed anything > which works better than the British method of hanging. Electrocution all > too often results in a prolonged and agonising death, the chamber smelling > of smoke and burning flesh. Pierrepoints - if not the world's - record was 8 seconds from entering the condemned cell to the drop. If you accept death by long-drop hanging to be instantaneous (I've not come across any serious dissent on that fact) then it puts any other form to shame. I suppose the closest you'd get is guillotining, but the *English*[1] sensibilities don't go for bodily dismemberment much. I've read of electrocutions which have taken 20 minutes, lethal injections that have taken up to an hour (difficult to find the veins). Short-drop hangings are typically 10-15 minutes. Gas chamber up to 10 minutes ...... There was a Royal Commision in the 50s which went round the world investigating Judicial Executions, (there's a job) and they concluded that long-drop hanging was by far and a way the most humane and least distressing method available. Bearing in mind it was required that the Prison Governor had to attend executions in the UK, this was quite important. (Pierrepoint recounts a particular govenor who was terrified of being present. They worked out a compromise where the governor put his head round the door when he heard the word "pull" and was able to discharge his duty without actually stepping into the room. Unfortunately the anti-limey attitude which prevents the US from adopting football, aslo applies to execution methods. IIRC only one state permits hanging as a valid execution method, and they are desperate not to let any prisoner choose it. [1] cf Germany and France > Pierrepoints - if not the world's - record was 8 seconds from entering > the condemned cell to the drop. If you accept death by long-drop > hanging to be instantaneous (I've not come across any serious dissent > on that fact) I would have thought it depends on how you define death. Normally these days, it's brain death, ie no detectable brain activity rather than, say, the cessation of heartbeat. If it's brain death, though, there's no reason I can see why decapitation or hanging would instantaneously result in that. The brain itself is undamaged, and will still have some residual oxygen. It will therefore continue to function to a certain, albeit rapidly declining, extent after the execution event. Not for long, admittedly, and certainly with no prospect of recovery, but not exactly instantaneously either. Don't some say that Charles I continued to mouth the words of the prayer he was saying, after the axe fell? That would be possible for a brief time if my hypothesis is right. > > Pierrepoints - if not the world's - record was 8 seconds from entering > > the condemned cell to the drop. If you accept death by long-drop [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > extent after the execution event. Not for long, admittedly, and certainly > with no prospect of recovery, but not exactly instantaneously either. It was observed that in correctly implemented hangings, the rope stood stock still, with no twisting, swaying, or jerking - implying there was no movement from the prisoner. From wkipedia : When cerebral circulation is severely compromised by any mechanism, arterial or venous, death occurs over four or more minutes from cerebral hypoxia, although the heart may continue to beat for some period after the brain can no longer be resuscitated. The time of death in such cases is a matter of convention. In judicial hangings, death is pronounced at cardiac arrest, which may occur at times from several minutes up to 15 minutes or longer after hanging. During suspension, once the prisoner has lapsed into unconsciousness, rippling movements of the body and limbs may occur for some time which are usually attributed to nervous and muscular reflexes. In Britain, it was normal to leave the body suspended for an hour to ensure death > Don't some say that Charles I continued to mouth the words of the prayer he > was saying, after the axe fell? That would be possible for a brief time if > my hypothesis is right. AIUI, decapitation of any description results in a massive drop in blood pressure, leading to instaneaous loss of conciousness - by that token, any *voluntary* motion is impossible. However it's not impossible for *involuntary* movements to occur. Incidentally, this is why *properly* executed Halal slaughter is as humane as captive-bolt. >> I would have thought it depends on how you define death. Normally these >> days, it's brain death, ie no detectable brain activity rather than, say, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > stock still, with no twisting, swaying, or jerking - implying there > was no movement from the prisoner. Quite possibly. But that doesn't equate with death or, especially, with brain death. The object of long-drop hanging is to force the cerbral vertebrae to cut through the spinal cord. If done successfully, that means no nerve impulses can be transmitted from the brain beyond the neck, and the body is essentially completely paralysed, ie nothing can move, from the moment it happens. However, the brain is not destroyed, and neither is the blood supply route to it, though it may be severely curtailed by the rope round the neck. So, the brain will continue to function after a fashion, maybe even consciously, and could continue to do so for a considerable time if the heart keeps beating. >> Don't some say that Charles I continued to mouth the words of the prayer >> he [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Incidentally, this is why *properly* executed Halal slaughter is as > humane as captive-bolt. That doesn't follow at all. A captive bolt should cause instantaneous death, by brain death criteria anyway, because the brain is so severely damaged it cannot continue to function at all, least of all consciously. A Halal slaughter is achieved by slitting the throat of the animal which leads eventually to brain death by hypoxia. During the process, the animal will undoubtedly remain conscious for a significant time, maybe a minute or so depending on how well it's done, during which it will experience a period of intense pain and suffering. When it falls unconscious, it of course experiences no more pain, but brain death does not follow for several more minutes. If I had the choice I'd choose a captive bolt every time. > > Incidentally, this is why *properly* executed Halal slaughter is as > > humane as captive-bolt. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > experiences no more pain, but brain death does not follow for several more > minutes. If I had the choice I'd choose a captive bolt every time. But you are equating bovine or ovine neurological setup with human - not a like-for-like comparison. Because of our dependence on our higher functions, human brains are much more sensitive to damage. Anyway, the captive bolt doesn't kill the animal - it merely stuns it to prevent the stress of death (by exsanguinaton) spoiling the meat. >> > Incidentally, this is why *properly* executed Halal slaughter is as >> > humane as captive-bolt. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > not a like-for-like comparison. Because of our dependence on our > higher functions, human brains are much more sensitive to damage. Not so. In this respect, all animals, whether human or otherwise, are physiologically the same. > Anyway, the captive bolt doesn't kill the animal - it merely stuns it > to prevent the stress of death (by exsanguinaton) spoiling the meat. You're wrong, and you're confusing electrical stunning which, as its name suggestes, stuns the animal, and the subsequent captive bolt that kills it. Death occurs because of the bolt, not because of loss of blood. The blood is allowed to drain away after death, not before it. That's the difference from Halal slaughter, and why a captive bolt is much more humane. > >> > Incidentally, this is why *properly* executed Halal slaughter is as > >> > humane as captive-bolt. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > is allowed to drain away after death, not before it. That's the difference > from Halal slaughter, and why a captive bolt is much more humane. Don't take my word for it : http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/slaughter/std3.htm ... captive bolt stuns only. >> >> > Incidentally, this is why *properly* executed Halal slaughter is as >> >> > humane as captive-bolt. [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > ... captive bolt stuns only. It depends, as I said, on how you define death. About captive bolts, Wikipedia says: "In the penetrating type, the stunner uses a pointed bolt which is propelled by pressurized air or a blank cartridge. The bolt penetrates the skull of the animal, enters the cranium, and catastrophically damages the cerebrum and part of the cerebellum. Due to concussion, destruction of vital centres of brain and a reduction in intra-cranial pressure, the animal loses consciousness. This method is currently the most effective and widely used type of stunning, since it physically destroys brain matter" I think most would say that destruction of the brain amounts to brain death, even though it allows the heart to continue to beat. The fact remains, though, that Halal and Kosher slaughter is conducted without any stunning or sudden death, and is inhumane because of the pain and suffering the animal endures. > >> "Jethro" <jethro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > It depends, as I said, on how you define death. About captive bolts, > Wikipedia says: As I tried to say (badly) you can't compare a cows (for example) cerberal functions to a humans ... what would be fatal for a human wrt brain damage, can be quite less incapacitating for a cow. A fact which many dead would-be great-white-hunters learnt only too late, as the buffalo they shot through the head carries on charging them. > Don't some say that Charles I continued to mouth the words of the > prayer he was saying, after the axe fell? That would be possible > for a brief time if my hypothesis is right. During the French revolution, a condemned man agreed to work with a man of science to determine loss of brain function after beheading. The condemned man was told to blink his eyes rapidly for as long as possible. After the head was severed, the scientist had to shout at the head to "wake it up" (from shock?) and it started rapid blinking. The total time from decapitation to stop blinking was 10-12 seconds. >Don't some say that Charles I continued to mouth the words of the prayer he >was saying, after the axe fell? That would be possible for a brief time if >my hypothesis is right. I read somewhere that a doctor conducted an experiment in which cooperative condemned prisoners during the French revolution agreed to answer yes/no questions by blinking their eyes after they had been decapitated. They were reportedly able to do so for some period of time, which proved that the person was concious and capable of rational thought. SignatureCynic > On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:42:31 -0000, "Norman Wells" > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > time, which proved that the person was concious and capable of > rational thought. The problem with this, is a clean cut to the neck will cause the blood pressure to the brain to drop instantaneously, which would produce immediate unconciousness. I believe special forces are trained to kill silently by cutting the throat of the victim to produce the same effect - BICBW. Remember, we're not talking a "cut" to the neck which is holding some blood pressure in. We're talking a deep slice, which severs the arteries and veins. The problem with the doctors experiments is that they don't discount the fact that the movement of the eyelids could have been due to muscle spasms, and the fact they appeared to respond to questions simply means the brain was having a seizure. I think the only way to resolve this debate, is to perform an EEG whilst a person is beheaded. Something which would be difficult to do in most parts of the world. >The problem with this, is a clean cut to the neck will cause the blood >pressure to the brain to drop instantaneously, which would produce >immediate unconciousness. I wonder ... IIUC, a quick and clean amputation induces a reaction in the major blood vessels that have been severed causing them to close up to prevent blood loss. SignatureCynic > On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:44:04 -0800 (PST), Jethro > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > blood vessels that have been severed causing them to close up to > prevent blood loss. I hadn't thought of that ... but AIUI, it's the *muscles* surrounding the vessels which do the constriction ... not sure how strong what's left of the muscles in the neck would be .... Again, I propose the only way to know for sure is to rig up an EEC to a person whilst they are decapitated. >>The problem with this, is a clean cut to the neck will cause the blood >>pressure to the brain to drop instantaneously, which would produce [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >blood vessels that have been severed causing them to close up to >prevent blood loss. It's not the pressure that is important here, it's the flow. As soon as the blood stops flowing through the capillaries, even though it is still presenet, the tissue starts to become ischaemic (oxygen gets used up and products of metabolism and neuronal activity build up). It is the ischaemia which stops the nerves firing. In a TIA (transient ischaemic attack), a brain artery may become block temporarily. The blood is still there, but because it's not flowing it ceases to function as a transporter of substances. Francis >It's not the pressure that is important here, it's the flow. >As soon as the blood stops flowing through the capillaries, >even though it is still presenet, the tissue starts to become [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >there, but because it's not flowing it ceases to function as >a transporter of substances. Understood - but the question is how *long* does it take for the oxegen depletion to degrade neural activity sufficiently to produce unconciousness? SignatureCynic >>It's not the pressure that is important here, it's the flow. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > oxegen depletion to degrade neural activity sufficiently to produce > unconciousness? Four minutes? At any rate, brain damage occurs after 4 minutes of oxygen deprivation. That doesn't of course mean 4 minutes after you stop breathing, since the oxygen in the bloodstream will continue to support the brain for a while. >> Understood - but the question is how *long* does it take for the >> oxegen depletion to degrade neural activity sufficiently to produce [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >since the oxygen in the bloodstream will continue to support the brain for a >while. Bearing in mind that loss of consciousness and brain damage are not the same event/process - the first is likely to happen quite a long time before the second in the case of oxygen deprivation. Of course, brain damage determines the extent to which loss of consciousness (in the broadest sense) is reversible. Francis > >>It's not the pressure that is important here, it's the flow. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > since the oxygen in the bloodstream will continue to support the brain for a > while. An interesting work on this: http://www.forensic-medicine.pl/download/abstracts.pdf Warning, a big PDF file - an interesting abstract is found on page 39, OPT 30. Not sure where the full text of the abstracted article could be found. Hanging by the neck till dead, dead, dead is a popular means of suicide - occasionally long drop decapitation, but usually short or no drop. With abundant availability of video cameras, a number of people have filmed their suicides. The authors analyzed three filmed hanging suicides - there must exist many more of those. With a poor resolution home video, you cannot see heartbeat or its absence, and you cannot judge "brain damage" or "death" at all unless you actually try and resuscitate the person. However, the authors could see breathing movements, convulsions and other forms of cramps (decortication rigidity and decerebration rigidity) and they claimed they could judge loss of consciousness. The time from onset to hanging to last brain-controlled muscle effects varied from 2:47 (loss of muscle tone) to 4:10 (isolated muscle movement). Hanging usually causes loss of consciousness not through obstruction of breathing but because of stopping blood flow into brain. The hanged lost consciousness at 13-18 s, whereas people with unobstructed neck easily hold breath longer than this while diving. There is a known case of a person whose throat had been opened by operation for some illness, and who hanged self with noose above the opening - breathing was unobstructed, but the brain died because of no blood flow there, and breathing eventually stopped as the brain breathing centre shut down. When does brain "damage" occur? Hard to judge unless the brain is actually resuscitated. People certainly can faint and lose consciousness when brain blood supply is cut off and after return of the blood supply wake up with no permanent ill effects. >>It's not the pressure that is important here, it's the flow. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >oxegen depletion to degrade neural activity sufficiently to produce >unconciousness? Well, if you faint/lose consciousness within seconds of a sudden drop in blood pressure, caused by decapitation in the scenario above, then having the vessels close up behind the cut won't make any difference to that because in both cases blood flow has stopped. So my guess is a few seconds. Severing the spinal cord may have an additional effect if the brain receives abnormal input as a result, but I wouldn't have thought that would *prolong* consciousness. Francis > it's proponents go to such lengths to salve their conciences about the > methods. I'm sure I read that one US state had to suspend use of their [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I wonder, if capital punishment were ever re-introduced in the UK, > what H&S would make of the condemned cell ..... I am sure they would do all they could to spare the perp. all the terror and pain suffered by many victims of murder. |
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