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Medical Forum / General / General / March 2008Effects of weak electric fields on the activity of neurons and neuronal networks
if you want the full text, you'll have to pay for it... http://rpd.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/106/4/321?maxtoshow=&HITS=10& hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1077029641510_173&stored_s earch=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&volume=106&firstpage=321&resourcetype=1&j ournalcode=rpd Radiation Protection Dosimetry 106:321-323 (2003) © 2003 Oxford University Press Effects of weak electric fields on the activity of neurons and neuronal networks J.G.R. Jefferys, J. Deans, M. Bikson and J. Fox Electric fields applied to brain tissue will affect cellular properties. They will hyperpolarise the ends of cells closest to the positive part of the field, and depolarise ends closest to the negative. In the case of neurons this affects excitability. How these changes in transmembrane potential are distributed depends on the length constant of the neuron, and on its geometry; if the neuron is electrically compact, the change in transmembrane potential becomes an almost linear function of distance in the direction of the field. Neurons from the mammalian hippocampus, maintained in tissue slices in vitro, are significantly affected by fields of around 1-5 Vm-1. Oh dear. I heard about a brain cancer treatment which uses electric fields to damage cell reproduction. It'll be a pity if this also makes people stupid. > Electric fields applied to brain tissue will affect cellular > properties. They will hyperpolarise the ends of cells closest to the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Neurons from the mammalian hippocampus, maintained in tissue slices in > vitro, are significantly affected by fields of around 1-5 Vm-1. > if you want the full text, you'll have to pay for it... > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Neurons from the mammalian hippocampus, maintained in tissue slices in > vitro, are significantly affected by fields of around 1-5 Vm-1. Remarkable. They present no actual data, summarize previous results with no way to decipher what was actually done, and make numerous unsubstantiated claims. For example: "More importantly, we were able to measure that transmembrane potential at the cell body changed by an average of 0.12 mV for each V m1 of applied field(16)A" AFAIK, the action potential is around 100 mV- so they claim a 0.1% effect is meaningful and statistically significant. But it *is* open source, so some would say this is a model effort.  SignatureAndrew Resnick, Ph.D. Department of Physiology and Biophysics Case Western Reserve University >> if you want the full text, you'll have to pay for it... >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >potential at the cell body changed by an average >of 0.12 mV for each V m 1 of applied field(16)A" >AFAIK, the action potential is around 100 mV- so they claim a 0.1% >effect is meaningful and statistically significant. > >But it *is* open source, so some would say this is a model effort. If you look at the papers that cite the particular one you find some truly experimental work that suggests a true effect. For example: T. Radman, Y. Su, J. H. An, L. C. Parra, and M. Bikson Spike Timing Amplifies the Effect of Electric Fields on Neurons: Implications for Endogenous Field Effects J. Neurosci., March 14, 2007; 27(11): 3030 - 3036. "We found that a 1 mV/mm uniform field induced on average a transmembrane potential change of 0.1 mV. Compared with the scale of depolarization necessary to bring a neuron from rest to threshold (15 mV), these fields were previously considered insignificant with respect to action potential initiation. Previous action potential threshold studies identified changes attributable to electric fields of <5 mV/mm (Jefferys, 1981). Rather than spike generation, here we demonstrated changes in timing, consistent with the proposed amplification mechanism. The present results provide a potential mechanism for the effects on network spike timing demonstrated previously in vitro with exogenous uniform fields as low as 0.1 mV/mm (Deans et al., 2003; Francis et al., 2003; Fujisawa et al., 2004) and in vivo with calculated fields of 1.2 mV/mm (Marshall et al., 2006). " Just how significant these effects are in a free-living animal moving around in an external field so that any small effect is variable and transient is another question. Fields of 1 mV/mm (1 V/m) are pretty strong because tissue is a relatively good conductor, resistivity = 60 ohm-cm. That means that to get a field of 1 mV/mm = 10 mV/cm you need a current flow of 0.17 mA/sq-cm. I haven't calculated what kind of external electric field would be necessary to produce that type of current flow in a volume as large as a human head, but it must be rather large. I can say from direct experimental measurements that you do NOT see currents and fields like that in ordinary neurophysiological experiments in rooms filled with electronic equipment even if the experimental setup is not enclosed in a Faraday cage. The purpose of the cage is to eliminate potentials induced by external fields across relatively high resistance electrodes, not potentials induced within a saline bath. There is something strange going on with these sort of studies. Had a good look at them a few years ago and clearly there is an effect. Additionally, pulsed magnetic fields have been tried as a therapeutic measure for a variety of neurological conditions and these experiments do suggest promise. A friend of mine who is a physiotherapist has suggested to me that physios have been using magnetic fields for years, recently I came across a trial which suggested promise in this regard. One of the stranger effects noted from magnetic fields is the impact on mast cells, a matter I was particularly interested in because there are neuroimmune implications. Sadly this area of research tends to be neglected, possibly because it strikes too many people are spooky. Why ignore such things? ECT is arguably the quickest way to reduce depression with psychotic features and we still don't have a clue as to what is going on there. Pity it can also damage the hippocampus ... . John. > On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 09:28:15 -0500, Andy Resnick > [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > > - Show quoted text - From: "Benjamin" <Benjamin@verizon.net> Newsgroups: bionet.neuroscience References: <1194332318.689188.90720@z9g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> <fgpq12$il7$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu> <56s0j3hu9vpd36nk24mp2kcv0dv1j2nklg@4ax.com> <1194482933.850736.259670@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Effects of weak electric fields on the activity of neurons and neuronal networks Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 18:12:13 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Cross-posts removed. There is something strange going on with these sort of studies. Had a good look at them a few years ago and clearly there is an effect. Additionally, pulsed magnetic fields have been tried as a therapeutic measure for a variety of neurological conditions and these experiments do suggest promise. A friend of mine who is a physiotherapist has suggested to me that physios have been using magnetic fields for years, recently I came across a trial which suggested promise in this regard. One of the stranger effects noted from magnetic fields is the impact on mast cells, a matter I was particularly interested in because there are neuroimmune implications. Sadly this area of research tends to be neglected, possibly because it strikes too many people are spooky. Why ignore such things? ECT is arguably the quickest way to reduce depression with psychotic features and we still don't have a clue as to what is going on there. Pity it can also damage the hippocampus ... . John. [...] Hi, John, TMS [Transcranial Magnetic Stimula- tion] will be of use in Research and Diagnostics, but it'll never be of use in Therapy. [I've reiteratively discussed the hows and whys in long-former posts.] ECT [ElectroConvulsive 'therapy'] doesn't work. It 'just' imposes disorder, and folks 'think' that, because the subject is 'calmed' post-'treatment', the subject is 'cured'. But all that's happening is that the ECT scrambles 'normal' nervous- system function so badly that the TD E/I-minimization mechanisms have so much work imposed upon them that they're too-busy for the subject to pay attention to the stuff that was 'bothering' her or him. Which points right to what would be functional in talk therapies if Therapists understood that =any- thing= that's unfamiliar to their Patients, including most of what goes on during standard talk ther- apies, will elevate TD E/I, thus in- ducing the Patient to 'move away from' recovery. Instead, there's a lot of 'psycho-babble', like "transference", "repressed desires", etc., that the 'therapist' sub-group comes to be familiar with during training, but don't understand is =just= completely- 'normal' stuff that nervous systems do when TD E/I(up) is imposed 'within' them from identifiable external sources. Understand? Because Practicioners experience in 'local' external-experiential circum- stances that are instantiated and per- petuated largely through Practitioners' group-wise interactive dynamics, TD E/I-minimization occurs 'within' the Practitioners' nervous systems in ways that are conformed to =that= 'locally'- delimited stuff -- so it's all 'hunky-dory' as far as the Practitioners are concerned -- they achieve 'td e/i-minimization' just- fine with respect to their 'locally'-instan- tiated-'wdb2t' -- which gives them a shared 'sense' of 'correctness' -- when all "it" is is =whatever= it is that's mere- ly routinely-reiterated in their group-wise interactive dynamics. The 'gist', from the 'therapists' sub-group perspective being that "there's something wrong with" the Patient, when the Patient has =just= experienced differently, 'wandered' into the "zone of randomness" [AoK, Ap4; "ZoR"], and doesn't understand how to get out of 'there'. Understand? Therapists don't understand how and why nervous systems process inform- ation via 'blindly'-automated TD E/I-min- imization, but they do have relatively-con- sistent experience, so they work to impose =that= consistency 'within' their Patients' TD E/I-minimization dynamics -- without ever understanding what they're actually doing. The more-Direct route is to just teach folks, in-General, how and why nervous systems process information via 'blindly'- automated TD E/I-minimization -- =NOT= by 'turning everyone into a neuroscientist, but by giving folks sufficient grneral under- standing to Enable them to know how to 'move' with respect to heart(up), and why to do so. Then the Patient knows how and why their old, long-familiar, behavioral pat- terns just need to be 'trimmed' and en- hanced, Importantly, =without= impos- ing any 'sense' of anything being "wrong" with them or 'others'. All that's 'wrong' is that the understand- ing that can Enable folks to know how and why to 'move' is not, yet, instantiated 'within' nervous systems. There isn't anything "wrong" with the folks who are, typically, subjected to ECT. All there is is experience that's 'wandered into' the ZoR without knowing what the ZoR is, and how to 'move' with respect to it. The problem is =always= 'just' absence- of-understanding with respect to heart(down). It's the =Duality=. Helping-Therapies that will =Work= will understand that behavior is =by-produced= as a function of TD E/I-minimization, and not impose TD E/I(up) and call it "trans- ference", "repressed-anger", etc. It's just TD E/I(up) -- the ='normal'= stuff that confronts one with respect to =any= Learning with respect to stuff that's rel- atively-unfamiliar [relatively-non-TD E/I- minimized.] It's innate within nervous systems to "get angry" or "get depressed" when heart(up) is imposed externally. Absent-understanding with respect to how and why nervous systems process information via 'blindly'-automated TD E/I- minimization, that's Completely-'normal'. Everyone's 'just' been 'dancing-around-in- the-darkness' of absence-of-understanding with respect to how and why nervous systems process information via 'blindly'-automated TD E/I-minimization ["heart(down)".] Eliminate the 'darkness'. Give understanding. [I first Saw this stuff in my Psychology courses while still an undergrad, BTW. This was some of the first stuff that was 'reified' during the dev- elopment of what was to become NDT ['then', in terms of the "energy consumption of men- tation -- "ECM(up/down).] I'd come to studying Psychology from Physics, and I just Saw it, almost immed- iately. But nobody else could See it, Prob- ably because, 1., they were long-'familiar' with the stuff they'd been taught and were Teaching, which, 2., wasn't Physics or Maths. So everybody just 'danced-around' the Duality, instead of Seeing and under- standing it.] ECT, same-old, same-old, except that it's particularly-cruelly-Futile. All it does is produce 'zombies' that relapse again and again. [I discussed all of this stuff in long- former posts here in b.n.] I should be less-long-winded. I wanted to reply to your post because it stimmed me to Connect "transference", repressed-anger", so-called "depression", etc., stuff, as above, with trained-sub-group absence-of-understanding, and its rami- fying-coercion. I've seen so many folks who were 'just' screwed-up, more, when they sought 'therapy'. One Heart-Breaking case. A Most-Beautiful Young Woman. [She was so Beautiful that I can =still= 'see' her face in mind's eye after ~37 'years'. That Beautiful.] She was so =Beautiful= that practically everyone wanted to be with her, each one each 'piling-up' their own manifest- ations of absence-of-understanding, im- posing more disorder upon her, which routinely left her completely-overwhelmed. She 'existed' in the ZoR. All she needed was to be gently =consis- tently= guided to dispense with all of the B. S. that'd been imposed upon her dur- ing her earlier experience, but all she got was more B. S. imposed upon her during 'therapy'. She was so 'beaten'-up by the absence- of-understanding that'd been heaped-upon her during 'therapy' it was 'painful' to wit- ness her routinely-distressed 'state'. Underneath all of that, I could see she was Perfectly-'normal' -- a Perfect-'flower', torn from it's roots. I still Ache because of what I Saw be- ing done to her. It was stuff like this that got me 'pissed- off' enough to Decide to =Fix= what I Saw Needed-Fixing. It's easier, and more-functional, to just show folks that the powerfully-Cabable stuff of their nervous systems has just become overwhelmed because too much disorder had been imposed upon it. 'Course, it's easy once one =already= un- derstands how and why nervous systems process information via 'blindly'-automated TD E/I-minimization. Back 'then', I could only look-on-in-Horror at what I Saw happening to the Young Woman. I'd "smile" and give her give a cheerful word, but I was 'helpless' to do anything more. I'd not yet come to Understand. Today, I'd just get a bunch of blocks and bring them to her, jokingly-asking her to join me in building a 'tower', all the while gently-discussing, with her, the way that the 'tower' got more rickety as it got higher, and how Life is like that, 'two', and why. Then, when it came crashing-down, I'd start building again, this 'time', on a wider base, and with 'flying-buttress'- es that'd all be Directed with respect to supporting the main 'tower'. The 'flying-buttresses' are analogues for routinely-consistent stuff, like "hob- bies" and pleasant-interests that one can select and pursue, and, Import- antly, gracefully-rely-upon when the B. S. gets 'piled-high' during the course of one's short-term experience. And I'd teach her that Life is like that. The "blocks" are a =Gentle= "Indus- trial strength gentleness lever" [AoK, Ap8. Just like how, in building a 'tow- er' with them, each decision with re- spect to a block's placement is impor- tant to the 'tower's stability, each deci- sion one makes with respect to one's Living is analogously-Precious-stuff, that only =she= has Right and Responsi- bility to make for =herself=. [I'd probably bring along one of those "twisted-nail" puzzles, too :-] Then, if she was willing, I'd guide her growing understanding during walks during which I'd show her as many ex- amples as I could with respect to how and why nervous systems 'move' with respect to WDB2T [which isn't 'hard' -- look at anything, and there it is, but I'd keep it Simple, allowing =her= to discover the deep general-applicability for herself. As it, 'then', was, the B. S. was heaped- up so high in her Life that she couldn't even experience her Self. All she exper- ienced was what others, including her 'therapists', had told her to 'experience'. Then I'd teach her how and why ev- eryone 'wanted' her, but nobody Cared about her, and how and why all of that was like the first 'tower'. It's Simple. There's no need to strap current-carry- ing electrodes to a Human Being's head. Just put Understanding in-it. [ECT imposes disorder 'within' nervous systems be-cause it's analogous to a saw cutting through wood -- doesn't 'see' the 'grain'. ECT doesn't 'see the neural Topology, so it 'just' Cruelly 'bashes' it, rendering its functioning disordered. [Note well: I'm addressing =ONLY= ECT, not "implants", although, relative to org- anically-intact neural architecture, implants do do some of the same stuff that I've dis- cussed above [of course, in an extremely- less-powerful way] for the same Reason -- they don't 'see' the neural Topology, es- pecially not in a globally-integrated way.] I mean no 'offense'. I mean just-the-opposite stuff, and I'm Grateful for the Opportunity-to-discuss that your reply constituted.] Cheers, John, k. p. collins > From: "Benjamin" <Benja...@verizon.net> > Newsgroups: bionet.neuroscience [quoted text clipped - 367 lines] > > k. p. collins Absolutely! From: "Benjamin" <Benjamin@verizon.net> Newsgroups: bionet.neuroscience References: <1194332318.689188.90720@z9g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> <fgpq12$il7$1@eeyore.INS.cwru.edu> <56s0j3hu9vpd36nk24mp2kcv0dv1j2nklg@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Effects of weak electric fields on the activity of neurons and neuronal networks Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 18:09:08 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Cross-posts removed. | >> if you want the full text, you'll have to pay for it... http://rpd.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/106/4/321?maxtoshow=&HITS=10& hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1077029641510_173&stored_s earch=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&volume=106&firstpage=321&resourcetype=1&j ournalcode=rpd | >> Radiation Protection Dosimetry 106:321-323 (2003) | >> © 2003 Oxford University Press [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] | external fields across relatively high resistance electrodes, not | potentials induced within a saline bath. =If= what's above is True, which I 'presently' 'presume' it is, it's the "just-energy"-'level' of nervous-system function literally being Observed. [Forgive me, Please, I'm 'shell- shocked', and, if I don't analyze the orig- inal data, myself, I can only comment Conditionally.] Conditional-HURRAH!!! Although I don't "rule-out" routine effects with respect to nervous systems 'taking- a-hit' from ambient EM [which can, and Certainly does, occur, given the billions of human nervous systems that orient- in-proximity to ever-increasing sources and powers of artificially-instantiated EM] as I discussed long ago,here in b.n, any more-than-background effects of EM could only occur if the EM was conformed with respect to the neural Topology -- which is Hard-to-do outside of nervous systems [which, further, is a whole Field of Study in and of itself.] The net effects of ambient EM are, there- fore, akin to the imposition of relative-dis- order 'within' nervous-system dynamics that I've discussed in other long-former posts here in b.n [with respect to TMS as it was discussed by Matthew Kirckaldie and Neil Fornier, and ECT, which I'll ad- dress in a reply to John.] This makes EM effects upon =overall= nervous-system function 'Difficult' to ex- plicitly-discern -- because the TD E/I-min- imization mechanisms are all structurally and functionally ordered solely with respect to eliminating disorder 'within' neural dyn- amics. At most, the effect of EM on a whole nerv- ous system would be [and Probably al- ready commonly is] a =slowing= of TD E/I-minimization convergence -- be-cause of the "3D-Energydynamics" ["3D-E"] stuff I've reiterated in long-former posts, and stuff like the stuff I've preserved from earlier posts, above. [Which imposition of disorder Probably also affects other org- ans of 'the' body, BTW, also slowing their function, which can, and Probably does, have consequences with respect to inter- organ synchrony [because various tissues will be differentially-susceptible to the dis- ordering effects of EM], especially during Development.] The small mods constitute a =generalized= imposition of disorder be-cause they are =externally= -imposed, and, in absence of the ambient EM, they'd not be occurring, so the TD E/I-minimization mechanisms [AoK], are not able to act with any Consistent-re- spect to them [because such external stuff is 'controllable' only through behavior that tunes, or turns on and off, such external stuff -- that is, the TD E/I-minimization mech- anisms can't tune it, or turn it on and off, ex- cept through 'normal' cognitive dynamics that underpin 'normal' behavior -- like when Scientists determine the cause of a disease and act in-behavior to 'move toward' mini- mizing the external wellspring of disease, thus, minimizing the disorder that the dis- ease process imposes 'within' 'normal' bodily function. Understand? =Everything= that nervous systems do happens in an analogous way -- be-cause nervous systems 'blindly' and automatical- ly 'move toward' increased order, be-cause their functioning is inversely-Determined with respect to WDB2T. The effects of externally-instantiated EM, same-old, same-old. If it imposes disorder 'within' nervous system dynamics, the TD E/I-minimization mechanisms 'recognize' such, and by-produce behavioral 'move- ment' that's more or less Directed in ways that will act to reduce or eliminate the source of the externally-imposed disorder. =All= behavior, same-old, same-old, in- cluding street-gangs' "turf wars", Academ- ics' "turf battles" with respect to the Princi- ples of their Disciplines, etc., all the way up to Governments and Nations' Popula- tions in economic competition and in the waging of War. It's =all= the same stuff -- nervous systems 'moving away from' disorder. How and why all of this becomes 'Difficult' is 'be-cause', since how and why nervous systems process information via 'blindly'- automated TD E/I-minimization has not been =Generally= Comprehended, folks, in-General, 'sense' the relative-disorder inherent in differential-experience, but re- main =virtually= -unable to distinguish be- tween it's =actual= source, which is the mere fact of differential-experience, and the 'worth' of the other People who just happen to be present when the non-com- prehended disorder is experienced. Which is why I Hammer on getting this one thing across to folks. Throughout the course of human History, folks've been Killing, and otherwise Rav- aging one another 'simply' because folks did not understand how and why nervous systems process information via 'blindly'- automated TD E/I-minimization -- simply because folks didn't understand how and why their, and others', nervous systems "understand" and Direct their behaviors with respect to physical reality. So, one nervous system achieves 'local'- 'td e/i-minimization' with respect to the 'local'-'wdb2t' that it's host organism has experienced, and so does another, with respect to =different= 'local'-'wdb2t', and, when they 'interact', they both expereince instances of TD E/I(up) because they are each 'local'-wdb2t' to 'the other' -- and, not understanding how nervous systems work, they experience the relative-disorder inher- ent in the TD E/I(up), and =FALSELY= attrib- ute it to 'the other', simply because 'the other' is what's 'in' their 'instantaneous' 'local'-wdb2t' -- so they argue, fight, or Kill one another. All as a result of their absence- of-understanding with respect to how and why nervous systems process information via 'blindly'-automated TD E/I-minimization. I've gotten into reiterating this stuff [as I al- ways do :-] because the ambient-EM stuff presents a particularly-useful 'window' into the general-dynamics because it is so Ab- stract relative to the ways in which folks routinely think about nervous-system func- tion. Such abstractions are Extremely-Val- uable with respect to "breaking-through" the 'walls' that 'contain' cognition and be- havior because, since they're relatively- novel, there's little, or no, =prior= TD E/I- minimization that's occurred with explicit respect to them 'within' nervous systems, and, therefore, little, or no, previously-in- stantiated "biological mass" that can pre- determine TD E/I-minimization -- so the abstract cases present folks' nervous sys- tems with Opportunities to achieve TD E/I- minimization in 'new' ways, which will, sub- sequently, ramify with respect to the anal- ogous stuff that's been long-TD E/I-mini- mized, thereby Enabling folks to "break- through" the 'walls' that 'contain' cognition and behavior, leaving folks virtually-Impris- oned in circumstances in which they end- up Killing one another -- for literally no- Reason other than that how and why nerv- ous systems process information via 'blindly'-automated TD E/I-minimization had not been comprehended. Which is why the ambient-EM stuff is =Important=.] The net effect of ambient EM in nervous- system function is crudely-analogous to what'd be the case if, given two water- filled ice-cube trays, one 'normal', and the other with small in-ice-cube-tray-'cub- icle' heating coils, one stuck them in a freezer and 'timed' their solidifications -- the purturbed one would freeze more- slowly -- be-cause the heating coils impose disorder within the overall heat- removal dynamics -- one tray 'experiences' relatively-greater 'local'-'wdb2t' than the other one. TD E/I-minimization as ambient EM in- creases, same-old, same-old. Human Beings, sans-understanding with respect to how and why nervous systems process information, same-old, same-old. This increased disorder imposes more TD E/I-minimization work upon the TD E/I-minimization mechanisms. It's the same in all cases. But =IFF= understanding with respect to how and why nervous systems process information via 'blindly'-automated TD E/I- minimization is instantiated as has been discussed in AoK, AP7, all along, folks are Enabled to 'move' with respect to non-'local'-Truth [more-widely-ranging- WDB2T], instead of Killing one another. Anyway, folks who read Dr. Norman's discussion can see, in-it, the "just-en- ergy" stuff -- the "3D-Energydynamics" ["3D-E"] -- that I've been discussing all along here in b.n [although Seeing such all-the-way-down requires Tapered Harmony's 'new' Reification of physical reality.] A little more Conditional-since-I've-not- read-the-original-data Celebration! Conditional-HURRAH!!! :-] Cheers, Dr. Norman, k. p. collins >if you want the full text, you'll have to pay for it... > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Neurons from the mammalian hippocampus, maintained in tissue slices in >vitro, are significantly affected by fields of around 1-5 Vm-1. In interpreting this information, you have to remember that brain tissue is a pretty good electrical conductor: saline has a resistivity of about 60 ohm-cm or so. So a field of 5 V/m produces a current of almost 1 mA/sq-cm. If you took a 1.5 volt battery and attached aluminum foil vanes to the poles, one on each side of your head, you might think you were getting a field strength of maybe 7 or 8 V/m but your brain tissue would only get a tiny fraction of that value. The same thing would happen with any externally applied field source. You need good current-passing electrodes in the tissue to produce reasonable electric fields in tissue. >>if you want the full text, you'll have to pay for it... >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >source. You need good current-passing electrodes in the tissue to >produce reasonable electric fields in tissue. Sorry, this old post somehow popped up in my news reader and I didn't look at the date. It is old news and thoroughly discussed already. | >if you want the full text, you'll have to pay for it... | [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] | source. You need good current-passing electrodes in the tissue to | produce reasonable electric fields in tissue. Hi Dr. Norman. 'sorry' about my feeling the need to reply, but I woke-up this 'morning' aware that I 'had to' -- seems you were 'in my dreams' [in my sleep- ing-consciousness "database walk- ing" :-] When the general topic was first- posed [in my experience] here in b.n, upon considering it, I replied saying that, because all organisms in the Earth environment have evolved in an EM "storm", it's hard to see any way in which EM could negatively-impact nervous-system function at any 'level'. But the stuff of that OP, neverthe- less, "stuck" and got me thinking -- heart(up) stuff. Since 'then', I've discussed a lot of stuff, here in b.n, that controverts my first-reaction to the OP. For instance, if EM didn't impact nervous-system function, "vision" would be "Impossible". "Light" is just EM radiation, yet nervous systems' function differentially with re- spect to variations in such EM radiation -- which is what's happening in folks nervous systems as they "read" the "squiggly-lines" of the "characters" of the "alphabet" on their computers' screens -- and when one walks or drives-one's-car through the sorts of crowded spaces that occur dur- ing "rush-hour". So it's Obvious that 'normal'-range ambient EM not only can effect nervous-system function, it literal- ly guides the evolution of nervous- systems' "visual" capacities. It turns out [after doing the Analysis] that everything else is the 'same', but I'll stay at the 'level' of the simple example, above. "Vision" can evolve in the EM "storm" because there're always rigorous- couplings between the EM and other physical properties -- such as "objects' " solidities -- that physically-cross-cor- relate =particular= EM with organisms' 'movement'-requirements, "pairing" the two -- so "visual-spectrum EM" gets selected-out of the larger EM "storm" in which Life evolves. But the =Fact= that =all= EM must impact nervous system function is Completely-Disclosed in the above. It's not that EM doesn't impact nervous-system function. It's that, despite all EM's impacting nervous- system function, the vast-majority of 'normally'-ambient EM "cancels", statistically, be-cause power-and- Directionalities cancel-statistically when there're no routine rigorous- couplings with other physical prop- erties. Understand? It's exactly-analogous to how and why "poisons" impact 'normal' phys- iology -- be-cause "poisons" are 'normally' 'moved away from' [be- cause they've been 'recognized' as being non-functional during evolutionary dynamics, yielding stuff like "gagging", "vomiting", "alergic", "scratching", etc., 'built- in' behavioral reactivities' -- 'same' as the 'reflexive' Direction of one's eyes 'away from' relatively-bright sources of visual-spectrum EM. See what else is in-there? It's in-there that =any= non-stat- istically-cancelled EM will =Necess- arily= impact nervous system func- tion [including development, right down to genetic-unfolding], and, even at evolutionary 'time' scales if the EM-imbalance is 'sustained'. This's exactly what establishing stuff like statically-placed-and- oriented microwave-EM installa- tions do -- because they all exist as relatively-static-EM-statistical- imbalances over what will be gen- erations' 'time'-frames, which are evolutionary 'time'-frames. It's, thus, a virtual-Certainty that such non-statistically-balanced EM [which is, typically, man-made [ev- en "gamma-ray" EM-radiation bal- ances-out statistically over evol- utionary 'time' scales] is acceler- ating the evolution of disease-pro- cesses, including the forcing of relatively-localized evolutionary- differentiations what would not, otherwise, occur -- which =can=, and if interminably-unchecked, will, instantiate Speciation dynamics that would not've, otherwise, oc- curred. I haven't done the Necessary Anal- ysis, 'yet', but the multiple-drug- resistant-TB stuff that was widely- reported in Newspapers, two-'days', ago [27 Feb 08] had me 'wondering' about this very man-induced-EM- statistical-imbalance stuff, and whether it's, somehow, involved. So the case, which includes every- thing that exists in physical reality, like all of "Chemistry" and "Physics" -- because "material" is comprised of 'atoms' which have relatively-dis- tinct and discrete EM reactivities [which is how and why stuff like MRIs work], is Closed -- in the Affirmative. Man Needs to keep his EM balanced [which has long been known, BTW -- I recall a wise "Electronics Tech- nician" telling me, back in the 1960s, to not-stand, where I was 'then' standing, "when the RADAR is func- tioning" -- he was concerned about my retaining my capacity to Father- Children :-] [He didn't know that I'd never be allowed the Opportunity because I will've never've been 'released' from 'having to' work-interminably -- my Children never-Born.] On that 'cheery'-thought, I wish- you-Well, Dr. Norman. ken [k. p. collins] || [...] | It's not that EM doesn't impact | nervous-system function. It's that, [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] | See what else is in-there? | [...] IMPORTANT-REITERATIVE-CLARIFICATION: What "poisons" do impose-disorder in our bodies' physiological-dynamics -- 'within' our bodies 3D-Energydyn- amics [3D-E] -- which, as I discussed in this thread last November, is the same-stuff that artificially-instantiated EM does -- impose-relative-disorder 'within' nervous systems' TD E/I-min- imization dynamics ['within' nervous systems' 3D-E.] Importantly, as I reiterated last Nov- ember, such impositions of disorder =always= include degrees of 'cross- ing-the-wires' of 'normal' "functional multiplexing" [AoK, Ap9], which in- stantiates the ormation of non-'norm- ally'-functionally-multiplexed "biolog- ical mass" [AoK, Ap5] that encodes the 'td e/i-minimization' with respect to the TD E/I(up) [the relative-dis- order] that's been induced by the artificially-induced, relatively-static- ally-occurring, "man-made" EM. Such impositions of disorder, be they chemically-induced or EM-induced, =always= [at least] slow-down 'norm- al' TD E/I-minimization dynamics -- simply be-cause, when disorder in- creases, more physically-real work must be performed by the TD E/I- minimization mechanisms that've been discussed in AoK all along. In Exactly the same way as the ab- use of 'drugs' instantiates 'abnorm- al'-TD E/I-minimization dynamics that instantiate 'abnormal' biolog- ical mass ["microscopic trophic modifications ["micro-mods"] in neural structure, "poisons" and statically-occurring EM instantiates 'abnormal' biological mass that ex- erts physically-real inertia 'within' subsequent neural dynamics ['with- in subsequent 3D-E] which can, and, if left interminably-existing, Definite- ly will, instantiate Speciation dyn- amics that would not've, otherwise, occurred. It' =SIMPLE=. The =ONLY= thing that "Life" does is 'climb'-WDB2T. Alter 'local'-'wdb2t', and, to the de- gree of such, 'life' 'climbs'-WDB2T =differently=. It's not, in-General, a 'cause-for- panic', because 'normal' Learning consists of analogous-stuff -- 'norm- al' TD E/I-minimization that occurs in one Person's nervous system in- stantiates biological mass 'within' that nervous system, which results in that nervous system's manifest- ing Behavior that is altered to the degree that the TD E/I-minimization- instantiated biological mass exerts inertia 'within' that nervous system's subsequent TD E/I-minimization dynamics, which altered-behavior- al-manifestations will, still-more- subsequently, be experienced as "environmental" sources of TD E/I (up) 'within' other Persons' nervous systems, with respect to which TD E/I(up)s, other nervous systems will, more or less, 'achieve' their own, in- dividually-unique, TD E/I-minimiza- tions -- all of which is =JUST= what "Learning" physically is, and how and why "Learning" Communicates across Populations. There is Cause-for-Concern, how- ever, with respect to artificially- instantiated, relatively-static, oc- currences of disorder-inducing 3D-E, be they Chemical, EM, or stuff such as the "hysterical"-chaos that overwhelms Populations-wide- TD E/I-minimization dynamics, pre- cipitating War [which is the Same- Stuff that occurs at the 'level' of in- dividual-nervous-systems that man- ifest "psychotic"-'behavior', BTW] -- be-cause, unlike the 3D-E inherent in the dynamics of 'normal'-Learning, such artificially-induced instances of relatively-disordered 3D-E =ALWAYS= negatively-impact both nervous-sys- tem and overall-bodily functionalities, which, if left-unchecked, will literally 'result' in Speciation-dynamics that would not've, otherwise, occurred. As I discussed in my earlier post [linked-to above], it's a Cirtainty [I've removed the "virtual" qualifier] that such is already occurring at microscopic 'levels' -- which is al- ready instantiating disease-process- es that would not've, otherwise be- come instantiated -- which can, and will, be Verified when the necessary micro-ogranism experiments are performed. So, although it's not a cause-for- panic, it is a General-Alarm-'fire' with respect to which the thing to =Do= is for Scientists to 'move toward' doing-the-necessary-ex- periments in their Labs. The =basics= of the necessary experimental-designs are complete- ly-analogous to 'standard'-practices with respect to Observing the effects of chemical-substances upon organ- ismic-3D-E, and include instantiating imposing statically-Directed EM, at various static-frequencies, upon mic- ro-organisms, and Observing stuff such as the micro-organisms' motil- ities, and, subsequently, doing re- fractions of their compositions, all over relatively-long 'periods-of- time', carefully-comparing these results with well-isolated control- specimines. [I can [and will, if I'm allowed to do so [in-person]] tell Experiment- ers =EXACTLY= what to Look-for.] What'll be Observed to be happen- ing at this micro-organism 'level' is also occurring, at [at least] the analogous 'level', in human bodies. Again, it's all =Very-Simple= be-cause what "Life" does is 'climb' the one- way flowing of energy, from high- density to low-density [from order to disorder] that is what's =described= by 2nd Thermo [WDB2T] -- through which "Life" 'moves toward' relatively- increased energy-density [and order] -- be-cause doing so enables "Life" to increase it's relative-access to the energy upon which "Life's" Survival Depends, and in which it Derives. Sidebar: I've =long= been 'mar- veling' at the 'way' behavioral dyn- amics have, in-General, been be- coming increasingly-disordered, ascribing such to the "relative-soc- ial-ease" considerations that I've discussed in other posts. But I've also been growing-in- awareness with respect to the artificial-inducing-of-disorder that I've reiteratively-address- ed in my discussions in this thread -- because the absence- of-purpose in General-Behavioral dynamics has increased in a 'way' that's "Obviously" [to me] correl- ated with the 'watershed' 'years' of the 1960s' instantiation the 'per- ception that drug'-abuse is norm- al within behavioral dynamics', which has been Observedly-aug- menting, 'monotonically', since 'then'. As I discussed in this thread last November, such results from the fact that 'drug'-abuse does 'cross- the-wires' of 'normal' functional multiplexing. Because of the thread's persist- ence, I've gotten-into discussing my extended-analysis which in- cludes artificially-instantiated sources of relatively-statically- Directed EM. "Life", and especially nervous systems, literally grasp just-en- ergy. Altering just-energy 'within' the environments in which "Life" exists alters that which "Life" literally grasps, thereby alter- ing how, and even some of why, "Life" 'moves'. It's not a cause for 'panic'. But it is a General-Alarm-'fire'. That's 100%-within the realm of Science. Besides, it's just a Really-Good use of "experiment". So, God-Speed, Experimenters. [Again, I'll Gladly tell 'you' Ex- actly what to Look for, and do the data-Analysis, too [need I say in a Completely-Open way?] -- because these Experiments will Verify both NDT and TH all the way down to just-energy -- which will Release me from what's been my Obligation. To "Sigh"-in-Relief, at last.] With-Love. k. p. collins |
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