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Crappy Donated Blood
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ironjustice - 09 Oct 2007 17:10 GMT Hemolysis .. ?
Public release date: 8-Oct-2007
Duke University Medical Center
Banked blood loses ability to deliver oxygen to tissues DURHAM, N.C. -Almost immediately after it is donated, human blood begins to lose a key gas that opens up blood vessels to facilitate the transfer of oxygen from red blood cells to oxygen-starved tissues.
Thus, millions of patients are apparently receiving transfusions with blood that is impaired in its ability to deliver oxygen, according to Duke University Medical Center researchers, who reported the results of their studies in two separate papers appearing early on-line in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
They also found that adding this gas back to stored blood before transfusion appears to restore red blood cells' ability to transfer oxygen to tissues. These studies go a long way toward answering a major problem which many physicians are beginning to appreciate - blood transfusions with banked human blood may do more harm than good for a majority of patients, according to the researchers.
Over the past five years, many studies, including some performed at Duke, have demonstrated that patients who receive blood transfusions have higher incidences of heart attack, heart failure, stroke and even death. While it is known that the banked blood is not the same as blood in the body, the reasons behind blood's association with worse outcomes have not been well-understood.
The key to the current findings is that nitric oxide in red blood cells is crucial to the delivery of oxygen to tissues. Nitric oxide keeps the blood vessels open. The new studies demonstrated that nitric oxide in red blood cells begins breaking down almost immediately after red blood cells leave the body.
"It doesn't matter how much oxygen is being carried by red blood cells, it cannot get to the tissues that need it without nitric oxide," said Duke's Jonathan Stamler, M.D., senior author of one of the PNAS papers, whose group originally discovered the role of red blood cell nitric oxide in oxygen delivery. "Nitric oxide opens up the tiny blood vessels, allowing red blood cells to pass and deliver oxygen. If the blood vessels cannot open, the red blood cells back up in the vessel and tissues go without oxygen. The result can be a heart attack or even death.
"The issue of transfused blood being potentially harmful to patients is one of the biggest problems facing American medicine," continued Stamler, who is a professor of cardiovascular and pulmonary medicine. "Most people do not appreciate that blood has the intrinsic capacity to open blood vessels, thereby enabling oxygen to get to tissues. Banked blood cannot do this properly."
However, transfusions are still critically important, Stamler said.
"Banked blood is truly a national treasure that needs to be protected," Stamler said. "Blood can be life saving, only it is not helping the way we had hoped and in many cases it may be making things worse. In principle, we now have a solution to the nitric oxide problem--we can put it back--but it needs to be proven in a clinical trial."
It is estimated that close to 14 million units of red blood cells are administered to about 4.8 million Americans each year. National blood banks require that blood be stored for no more than 42 days after donation. After that time, unused blood must be discarded.
One team of Duke researchers, led by Timothy McMahon, M.D., Ph.D., wanted to document exactly what happens to banked blood over those 42 days. Using human blood stored according to national standards, the researchers sampled the blood at regular intervals.
"We were surprised at how quickly the blood changes - we saw clear indications of nitric oxide depletion within the first three hours," said McMahon, an associate professor of pulmonary medicine. "Of concern to us is that nitric oxide levels become depressed soon after collection, suggesting that even 'fresh' blood may have adverse biological characteristics."
Nitric oxide is not only needed for red blood cells to off-load oxygen, it may also influence the flexibility of the saucer-shaped cells. As nitric oxide levels decrease, the red blood cells become stiffer, making it more difficult for them to deform their shape in order to squeeze through tiny blood vessels.
Stamler's team confirmed that nitric oxide levels started dropping quickly in stored human blood, and that this resulted loss of its ability to dilate blood vessels. So they wanted to see if adding the gas back to stored blood might restore the ability to open vessels, using dogs as a model.
Since blood is often given to patients to prevent heart attacks, and yet paradoxically may cause heart attacks, the investigators measured blood flow to the hearts of oxygen-deprived animals.
"When we gave stored blood it couldn't increase blood flow properly," Stamler said. "However, after replacing the nitric oxide, blood flow to the heart was increased, reflecting increased blood vessel dilation. This suggests that adding nitric oxide to human banked blood could theoretically improve its ability dilate blood vessels and thus prevent heart attacks and even death in patients."
Both McMahon and Stamler believe that a large-scale randomized clinical trial in humans is needed, arguing that blood has both benefits and risks, and therefore should be evaluated in the same manner as medications.
"There is little doubt that transfused blood can be harmful," said Stamler. "We are only uncertain about how serious the problem is. The availability of a potential solution will hopefully focus the attention of the medical community on the potential magnitude of this problem."
### Stamler's research was supported by the National Institutes of Health and Duke Anesthesiology Fund. McMahon's study was supported by the American Heart Association and N30 Pharma, a company that has a license agreement with Duke to develop nitric oxide-based therapies.
Contact: Richard Merritt Merri006@mc.duke.edu 919-660-1309
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RArmant - 09 Oct 2007 17:20 GMT So take arginine with your blood transfusion.
ironjustice@aol.com - 11 Oct 2007 01:46 GMT >> On Oct 9, 9:20 am, RArmant <rarm...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: So take arginine with your blood transfusion. <<
Give the man a .. ceegar .. !
Arginine deficiency in Sickle cell disease causes hemolysis A new study led by a researcher at Children's Hospital & Research Center at Oakland is the first to find that an amino acid deficiency in sickle cell disease is the result of hemolysis, a process where red blood cells rupture and release their contents into the blood stream. Low availability of the amino acid arginine is associated with lung disease and death in adult sickle cell patients.
The study, published in the July 6th issue of the Journal of American Medical Association (JAMA) supports new therapeutic strategies aimed at increasing arginine levels either through nutritional supplements or by developing new drug therapies that disable the arginase enzyme that consumes arginine.
"Lower amino acid ratios, which indicates low arginine availability, were found in patients who had more severe pulmonary hypertension, a condition involving high blood pressure in arteries carrying blood from the heart to small vessels in the lungs," said Claudia Morris, M.D., an Emergency Department physician and researcher at Children's Hospital Oakland. "This incurable condition is the leading cause of death in adults with sickle cell disease," she added.
The published report in JAMA also highlights important new warning signs that may predict the severity of the disease and could be useful in identifying adult patients at risk for early death through a simple blood test that measures amino acid levels.
"With this new finding and continued research, we hope to increase our understanding of the development of pulmonary hypertension not only in sickle cell disease, but in thalassemia (Cooleys anemia) and other inherited anemias," said Elizabeth G. Nabel, M.D., director of the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute, which co-funded the research.
Reference - Medical News Today, Childrens Hospital Oakland, JAMA
Who loves ya. Tom
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Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 11 Oct 2007 17:37 GMT so.....
what does a person with sickle cell disease have to do with "crappy donated blood"
your article on donated blood does not mention...nor imply...that there is any hemolysis in the donated blood
another example of you cut and paste..not read..and rarely understand
>>> On Oct 9, 9:20 am, RArmant <rarm...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > So take arginine with your blood transfusion. << [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > DEAD PEOPLE WALKING > http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk ironjustice@aol.com - 11 Oct 2007 18:05 GMT >> On Oct 11, 9:37 am, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:so..... what does a person with sickle cell disease have to do with "crappy donated blood" your article on donated blood does not mention...nor imply...that there is any hemolysis in the donated blood <<
**I** .. mentioned hemolysis ..
"Hemolysis .. ?" / as in wondering out loud since hemolysis destroys nitric oxide .. could it be the roughhousing of the blood and general lifting and carrying of the bag causes excessive red blood cell destruction / hemolysis .. therefore decreasing the nitric oxide in the .. blood .. bag .. / crappy donated blood.
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
> another example of you cut and paste..not read..and rarely understand<ironjust...@aol.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 11 Oct 2007 20:33 GMT >>> On Oct 11, 9:37 am, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:so..... > what does a person with sickle cell disease have to do with "crappy [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > lifting and carrying of the bag causes excessive red blood cell > destruction / hemolysis . no....that is NOT what causes hemolysis
obviously you have never worked in a blood bank....and given many units of blood to patients...I have...it takes more to make a red cell hemolyze that lifting and carrying a bag of blood..
it IS general knowledge tho that transfused blood lasts slightly less than the 6 weeks it normally takes for red cells to "wear out" and be taken out of circulation (by the spleen)
that COULD be what this article is referring to...tho it is unclear....
btw..even "person to person" donated blood such as on the battlefields and MASH units (no bags involved) is known to have a somewhat shorter life....but since the alternative might be the soldier bleeding to death...it is better than waiting the 6 weeks to rebuild one's blood...
ie...after a surgery once my Hgb was a little over 8....6 weeks later it was 12...
being healthy helps to keep up with blood being removed from circulation...and new RBC being formed.....
and yes...one has to have an decent iron store as well.....
. therefore decreasing the nitric oxide in
> the .. blood .. bag .. / crappy donated blood. > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 12 Oct 2007 20:41 GMT still waiting for a rebuttal to my most cognent reply to your hemolysis mis theory in donated blood
funny...you still ignore the replies with "facts" that don't agree with your ignorance
>>>> On Oct 11, 9:37 am, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:so..... >> what does a person with sickle cell disease have to do with "crappy [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] >>> >>> - Show quoted text - Manky Badger - 12 Oct 2007 23:26 GMT > still waiting for a rebuttal to my most cognent reply to your hemolysis > mis theory in donated blood > > funny...you still ignore the replies with "facts" that don't agree with > your ignorance Cue the mis-spelt swearing and the dots...... :o)
ironjustice@aol.com - 13 Oct 2007 14:56 GMT On Oct 12, 12:41 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:still waiting for a rebuttal to my most cognent reply to your hemolysis mis theory in donated blood <<
Soo .. you 'say' .. something .. and its' .. right .. ?
What part of go back to alt.health DIDN'T you understand .. ?
I talk to you .. hawki .. because you are on one of my .. threads ..
No other .. reason ..
You for some reason think I take ANYTHING you say with ANYTHING other than you are just another **braindead** .. medical professional who .. exhibits .. remarkable .. stupidity AT ALL TIMES .. ?
You are .. wrong ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 13 Oct 2007 20:01 GMT > On Oct 12, 12:41 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:still waiting for a > rebuttal to my most cognent reply to your hemolysis mis theory in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I talk to you .. hawki .. because you are on one of my .. threads .. again Tomster...they are not "your" threads and folks who take YOUR word for anything....are the braindead
> No other .. reason .. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > DEAD PEOPLE WALKING > http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk ironjustice@aol.com - 14 Oct 2007 01:00 GMT >> On Oct 13, 12:01 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:your hemolysis mis theory in donated blood << MY .. theory .. ?
http://tinyurl.com/25w2og
"In stored blood preparations, it has been documented that free hemoglobin and polymorphonuclear leukocyte elastase concentrations increase significantly with storage time, with resultant increased hemolysis of RBCs. A recent hypothesis has emerged regarding the adverse effects of transfusion of stored blood. Cell-free ferrous hemoglobin in the plasma, after transfusion of stored blood, rapidly destroys nitric oxide by oxidation to methemoglobin and nitrate. Nitric oxide reacts at least 1,000 times more rapidly with free hemoglobin than with erythrocytes. Limited nitric oxide bioavailability promotes regional and systemic vasoconstriction andsubsequent organ dysfunction"
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 14 Oct 2007 19:14 GMT >>> On Oct 13, 12:01 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:your hemolysis mis >>> theory in donated blood << [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > DEAD PEOPLE WALKING > http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk OK...so you continue to leave out the sentence stating that the "study" (composed of a puny sample of 25) and done in India...stated that on day 28 of storage...free Hgb..ie hemolysis...in all the rbc units were below the .8% level of hemolysis...
that means that 99.2% of the blood was NOT hemolyzed...ie.."good blood"
I'd take those odds over the alternative...often death..
Manky Badger - 14 Oct 2007 21:18 GMT > OK...so you continue to leave out the sentence stating that the "study" > (composed of a puny sample of 25) and done in India...stated that on day > 28 of storage...free Hgb..ie hemolysis...in all the rbc units were below > the .8% level of hemolysis... I'm not as "up" on blood bank as I once was, but if I recall correctly, blood is only stored for 35 days before it is deemed as "expired" - very little sits around that long in the blood bank. Does much even get to 28 days and still not having been used? I suspect not.
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 14 Oct 2007 21:20 GMT >> OK...so you continue to leave out the sentence stating that the "study" >> (composed of a puny sample of 25) and done in India...stated that on day [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Does much even get to 28 days and still not having been used? I suspect > not. true....thus the % of hemolysis..if any...in transfusions is likely to be so low as to not overrule the need for the blood...
just Tommy and I trying to dispute....reason doesn't work with him tho
Manky Badger - 14 Oct 2007 22:47 GMT >>> OK...so you continue to leave out the sentence stating that the "study" >>> (composed of a puny sample of 25) and done in India...stated that on day [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > just Tommy and I trying to dispute....reason doesn't work with him tho He's a case, isn't he - I'm waiting for the attempts at swearing and the dots..... :o)
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 14 Oct 2007 23:02 GMT >>>> OK...so you continue to leave out the sentence stating that the "study" >>>> (composed of a puny sample of 25) and done in India...stated that on [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > He's a case, isn't he - I'm waiting for the attempts at swearing and the > dots..... :o) ahhhh....the dots...cannot wait either...
ironjustice@aol.com - 13 Oct 2007 15:21 GMT On Oct 12, 12:41 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: funny...you still ignore the replies with "facts" that don't agree with your ignorance <<
Actually .. it is Blood Bag Handling 101 and the fact .. YOU .. don't know .. Blood Bag Handling 101 .. makes YOU .. stupid .. NOT .. ignorant .. BECAUSE ..? .. It .. IS .. Blood Bag Handling 101 ..
"RBC hemolysis is known to occur during blood collection, processing, handling and storage within the transfusion service and also during transport to the patient's bedside."
http://www.ajts.org/article.asp?issn=0973-6247;year=2007;volume=1;issue=2;spage= 47;epage=51;aulast=Sawant
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
> <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 118 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 13 Oct 2007 19:59 GMT > On Oct 12, 12:41 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: funny...you still > ignore the replies with "facts" that don't agree with your ignorance [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > handling and storage within the transfusion service and also during > transport to the patient's bedside." if you had read it all...you might not have missed this sentence" However on day 28 of storage free hemoglobin in ALL the RBC units was below the acceptable level of .8% hemolysis"
that means...less than 1% of the blood bag blood was hemolyzed....likely due also to the size of the needles used in the blood draw
and your "proof" comes from India...and the sample size was a mere 25....hardly earthshaking data..esp coming from a nation with amongst the worse records in healthcare...etc
> http://www.ajts.org/article.asp?issn=0973-6247;year=2007;volume=1;issue=2;spage= 47;epage=51;aulast=Sawant > [quoted text clipped - 151 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 11 Oct 2007 00:30 GMT you obviously don't understand the etiology of hemolysis
if you think you do...funny it wasn't ,mentioned in the article
study harder...better yet...use a dictionary
> Hemolysis .. ? > [quoted text clipped - 131 lines] > DEAD PEOPLE WALKING > http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk ironjustice@aol.com - 11 Oct 2007 01:34 GMT >> On Oct 10, 4:30 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: you obviously don't understand the etiology of hemolysis <<
"the etiology of hemolysis"
Definition of etiology : the cause or origin of disease
I .. do .. know what etiology .. means .. and it don't mean .. ONE .. thing.
Sooo .. seeing you don't even KNOW .. the words you USE .. makes one wonder if going to a medical professional such as yourself .. what was it .. "Nurse Practioner" .. would be a wise .. move ..
The sheer number of people you and your ilk have been PROVEN to be killing .. kind of gives evidence to the fact it would NOT .. be .. wise.
Or .. "he chose poorly" ..
Heh .. heh ..
Now go back to alt.health ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
> if you think you do...funny it wasn't ,mentioned in the article > [quoted text clipped - 137 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Arcie - 18 Jan 2008 02:51 GMT Guys,
I know you enjoy arguing with each other, but for those here trying to make sense of all the varied literature on the subject let me state a few things.
The are a number of events that happen during the process of collecting, preserving, storing and transfusion of packed RBC that can and often do lead to slight hemolysis in a percentage of donated blood units prior to a patient actually receiving a transfusion. And it is valid to site studies that show that aged, stored RBC units have a higher level of hemolysis.
The article on nitric oxide availability in units of stored RBC does not mention the reason for the lack of nitric oxide in stored PRBC (packed Red blood cells). Presumably the same processes which happen in the human body would continue to happen in the bag of donated PRBC causing a drop in available nutrients including nitric oxide as the blood ages.
It also does not tell the reader that the patient receiving stored PRBC is receiving a blood volume less than their system already has available so the nitric oxide shortage should be corrected shortly after transfusion.
One point Tom does make is the increase in available free iron carried in the units of stored PRBC as a result of the "slight" hemolysis. My question is would this "bolus" of free iron be enough to overwhelm a persons normal nitric oxide cycle if they are severely anemic? We are actually talking about a 1% level of hemolysis in the units. But how much free iron does that represent?. Might it be enough to cause increased complications in patients with diminished peripheral circulation, such as advance diabetes or compromised coronary circulation in patients with an acute myocardial infarction?
I love reading the arguments...it is entertaining...but could we stop for a minute and actually discuss the significance of these papers and whether their might be some reason for the results we are seeing in each..?
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>>> On Oct 10, 4:30 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > you obviously don't understand the etiology of hemolysis << [quoted text clipped - 146 lines] >>> http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk- Hide quoted text - >> - Show quoted text - Manky Badger - 18 Jan 2008 08:39 GMT > I love reading the arguments...it is entertaining...but could we stop > for a minute and actually discuss the significance of these papers and > whether their might be some reason for the results we are seeing in > each..? You're new here, aren't you ;o)
Arcie - 18 Jan 2008 14:50 GMT OOOPs...sorry thought this was World of Warcraft....
No not really new, just mostly silent.
>> I love reading the arguments...it is entertaining...but could we stop >> for a minute and actually discuss the significance of these papers and >> whether their might be some reason for the results we are seeing in >> each..? > > You're new here, aren't you ;o) Manky Badger - 18 Jan 2008 15:45 GMT > OOOPs...sorry thought this was World of Warcraft.... > > No not really new, just mostly silent. Then surely you must realise the futility of attempting to debate anything ferrous :o)
>>> I love reading the arguments...it is entertaining...but could we stop >>> for a minute and actually discuss the significance of these papers and >>> whether their might be some reason for the results we are seeing in >>> each..? >> >> You're new here, aren't you ;o)
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