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Crappy Donated Blood

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ironjustice - 09 Oct 2007 17:10 GMT
Hemolysis .. ?

Public release date: 8-Oct-2007

Duke University Medical Center

Banked blood loses ability to deliver oxygen to tissues
DURHAM, N.C. -Almost immediately after it is donated, human blood
begins to lose a key gas that opens up blood vessels to facilitate the
transfer of oxygen from red blood cells to oxygen-starved tissues.

Thus, millions of patients are apparently receiving transfusions with
blood that is impaired in its ability to deliver oxygen, according to
Duke University Medical Center researchers, who reported the results
of their studies in two separate papers appearing early on-line in the
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

They also found that adding this gas back to stored blood before
transfusion appears to restore red blood cells' ability to transfer
oxygen to tissues. These studies go a long way toward answering a
major problem which many physicians are beginning to appreciate -
blood transfusions with banked human blood may do more harm than good
for a majority of patients, according to the researchers.

Over the past five years, many studies, including some performed at
Duke, have demonstrated that patients who receive blood transfusions
have higher incidences of heart attack, heart failure, stroke and even
death. While it is known that the banked blood is not the same as
blood in the body, the reasons behind blood's association with worse
outcomes have not been well-understood.

The key to the current findings is that nitric oxide in red blood
cells is crucial to the delivery of oxygen to tissues. Nitric oxide
keeps the blood vessels open. The new studies demonstrated that nitric
oxide in red blood cells begins breaking down almost immediately after
red blood cells leave the body.

"It doesn't matter how much oxygen is being carried by red blood
cells, it cannot get to the tissues that need it without nitric
oxide," said Duke's Jonathan Stamler, M.D., senior author of one of
the PNAS papers, whose group originally discovered the role of red
blood cell nitric oxide in oxygen delivery. "Nitric oxide opens up the
tiny blood vessels, allowing red blood cells to pass and deliver
oxygen. If the blood vessels cannot open, the red blood cells back up
in the vessel and tissues go without oxygen. The result can be a heart
attack or even death.

"The issue of transfused blood being potentially harmful to patients
is one of the biggest problems facing American medicine," continued
Stamler, who is a professor of cardiovascular and pulmonary medicine.
"Most people do not appreciate that blood has the intrinsic capacity
to open blood vessels, thereby enabling oxygen to get to tissues.
Banked blood cannot do this properly."

However, transfusions are still critically important, Stamler said.

"Banked blood is truly a national treasure that needs to be
protected," Stamler said. "Blood can be life saving, only it is not
helping the way we had hoped and in many cases it may be making things
worse. In principle, we now have a solution to the nitric oxide
problem--we can put it back--but it needs to be proven in a clinical
trial."

It is estimated that close to 14 million units of red blood cells are
administered to about 4.8 million Americans each year. National blood
banks require that blood be stored for no more than 42 days after
donation. After that time, unused blood must be discarded.

One team of Duke researchers, led by Timothy McMahon, M.D., Ph.D.,
wanted to document exactly what happens to banked blood over those 42
days. Using human blood stored according to national standards, the
researchers sampled the blood at regular intervals.

"We were surprised at how quickly the blood changes - we saw clear
indications of nitric oxide depletion within the first three hours,"
said McMahon, an associate professor of pulmonary medicine. "Of
concern to us is that nitric oxide levels become depressed soon after
collection, suggesting that even 'fresh' blood may have adverse
biological characteristics."

Nitric oxide is not only needed for red blood cells to off-load
oxygen, it may also influence the flexibility of the saucer-shaped
cells. As nitric oxide levels decrease, the red blood cells become
stiffer, making it more difficult for them to deform their shape in
order to squeeze through tiny blood vessels.

Stamler's team confirmed that nitric oxide levels started dropping
quickly in stored human blood, and that this resulted loss of its
ability to dilate blood vessels. So they wanted to see if adding the
gas back to stored blood might restore the ability to open vessels,
using dogs as a model.

Since blood is often given to patients to prevent heart attacks, and
yet paradoxically may cause heart attacks, the investigators measured
blood flow to the hearts of oxygen-deprived animals.

"When we gave stored blood it couldn't increase blood flow properly,"
Stamler said. "However, after replacing the nitric oxide, blood flow
to the heart was increased, reflecting increased blood vessel
dilation. This suggests that adding nitric oxide to human banked blood
could theoretically improve its ability dilate blood vessels and thus
prevent heart attacks and even death in patients."

Both McMahon and Stamler believe that a large-scale randomized
clinical trial in humans is needed, arguing that blood has both
benefits and risks, and therefore should be evaluated in the same
manner as medications.

"There is little doubt that transfused blood can be harmful," said
Stamler. "We are only uncertain about how serious the problem is. The
availability of a potential solution will hopefully focus the
attention of the medical community on the potential magnitude of this
problem."

###
Stamler's research was supported by the National Institutes of Health
and Duke Anesthesiology Fund. McMahon's study was supported by the
American Heart Association and N30 Pharma, a company that has a
license agreement with Duke to develop nitric oxide-based therapies.

Contact: Richard Merritt
Merri006@mc.duke.edu
919-660-1309

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
RArmant - 09 Oct 2007 17:20 GMT
So take arginine with your blood transfusion.
ironjustice@aol.com - 11 Oct 2007 01:46 GMT
>> On Oct 9, 9:20 am, RArmant <rarm...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
So take arginine with your blood transfusion. <<

Give the man a .. ceegar .. !

Arginine deficiency in Sickle cell disease causes hemolysis
A new study led by a researcher at Children's Hospital & Research
Center at Oakland is the first to find that an amino acid deficiency
in sickle cell disease is the result of hemolysis, a process where red
blood cells rupture and release their contents into the blood stream.
Low availability of the amino acid arginine is associated with lung
disease and death in adult sickle cell patients.

The study, published in the July 6th issue of the Journal of American
Medical Association (JAMA) supports new therapeutic strategies aimed
at increasing arginine levels either through nutritional supplements
or by developing new drug therapies that disable the arginase enzyme
that consumes arginine.

"Lower amino acid ratios, which indicates low arginine availability,
were found in patients who had more severe pulmonary hypertension, a
condition involving high blood pressure in arteries carrying blood
from the heart to small vessels in the lungs," said Claudia Morris,
M.D., an Emergency Department physician and researcher at Children's
Hospital Oakland. "This incurable condition is the leading cause of
death in adults with sickle cell disease," she added.

The published report in JAMA also highlights important new warning
signs that may predict the severity of the disease and could be useful
in identifying adult patients at risk for early death through a simple
blood test that measures amino acid levels.

"With this new finding and continued research, we hope to increase our
understanding of the development of pulmonary hypertension not only in
sickle cell disease, but in thalassemia (Cooleys anemia) and other
inherited anemias," said Elizabeth G. Nabel, M.D., director of the
National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute, which co-funded the
research.

Reference - Medical News Today, Childrens Hospital Oakland, JAMA

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 11 Oct 2007 17:37 GMT
so.....

what does a person with sickle cell disease have to do with "crappy donated
blood"

your article on donated blood does not mention...nor imply...that there is
any hemolysis in the donated blood

another example of you cut and paste..not read..and rarely understand
>>> On Oct 9, 9:20 am, RArmant <rarm...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> So take arginine with your blood transfusion. <<
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
> http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ironjustice@aol.com - 11 Oct 2007 18:05 GMT
>> On Oct 11, 9:37 am, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:so.....
what does a person with sickle cell disease have to do with "crappy
donated
blood"
your article on donated blood does not mention...nor imply...that
there is
any hemolysis in the donated blood <<

**I** .. mentioned hemolysis ..

"Hemolysis .. ?" / as in wondering out loud since hemolysis destroys
nitric oxide .. could it be the roughhousing of the blood and general
lifting and carrying of the bag causes excessive red blood cell
destruction / hemolysis .. therefore decreasing the nitric oxide in
the .. blood .. bag .. /  crappy donated blood.

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

> another example of you cut and paste..not read..and rarely understand<ironjust...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 11 Oct 2007 20:33 GMT
>>> On Oct 11, 9:37 am, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:so.....
> what does a person with sickle cell disease have to do with "crappy
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> lifting and carrying of the bag causes excessive red blood cell
> destruction / hemolysis .

no....that is NOT what causes hemolysis

obviously you have never worked in a blood bank....and given many units of
blood to patients...I have...it takes more to make a red cell hemolyze that
lifting and carrying a bag of blood..

it IS general knowledge tho that transfused blood lasts slightly less than
the 6 weeks it normally takes for red cells to "wear out" and be taken out
of circulation (by the spleen)

that COULD be what this article is referring to...tho it is unclear....

btw..even "person to person" donated blood such as on the battlefields and
MASH units (no bags involved) is known to have a somewhat shorter
life....but since the alternative might be the soldier bleeding to
death...it is better than waiting the 6 weeks to rebuild one's blood...

ie...after a surgery once my Hgb was a little over 8....6 weeks later it was
12...

being healthy helps to keep up with blood being removed from
circulation...and new RBC being formed.....

and yes...one has to have an decent iron store as well.....

. therefore decreasing the nitric oxide in
> the .. blood .. bag .. /  crappy donated blood.
>
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 12 Oct 2007 20:41 GMT
still waiting for a rebuttal to my most cognent reply to your hemolysis mis
theory in donated blood

funny...you still ignore the replies with "facts" that don't agree with your
ignorance

>>>> On Oct 11, 9:37 am, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:so.....
>> what does a person with sickle cell disease have to do with "crappy
[quoted text clipped - 110 lines]
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
Manky Badger - 12 Oct 2007 23:26 GMT
> still waiting for a rebuttal to my most cognent reply to your hemolysis
> mis theory in donated blood
>
> funny...you still ignore the replies with "facts" that don't agree with
> your ignorance

Cue the mis-spelt swearing and the dots...... :o)
ironjustice@aol.com - 13 Oct 2007 14:56 GMT
On Oct 12, 12:41 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:still waiting for a
rebuttal to my most cognent reply to your hemolysis mis theory in
donated blood <<

Soo .. you 'say' .. something .. and its' .. right .. ?

What part of go back to alt.health DIDN'T you understand .. ?

I talk to you .. hawki .. because you are on one of my .. threads ..

No other .. reason ..

You for some reason think I take ANYTHING you say with ANYTHING other
than you are just another **braindead** .. medical professional who ..
exhibits .. remarkable .. stupidity AT ALL TIMES .. ?

You are .. wrong ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 13 Oct 2007 20:01 GMT
> On Oct 12, 12:41 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:still waiting for a
> rebuttal to my most cognent reply to your hemolysis mis theory in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I talk to you .. hawki .. because you are on one of my .. threads ..

again Tomster...they are not "your" threads  and folks who take YOUR word
for anything....are the braindead

> No other .. reason ..
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
> http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ironjustice@aol.com - 14 Oct 2007 01:00 GMT
>> On Oct 13, 12:01 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:your hemolysis mis theory in donated blood <<

MY .. theory .. ?

http://tinyurl.com/25w2og

"In stored blood preparations, it has been documented that free
hemoglobin and polymorphonuclear leukocyte elastase concentrations
increase significantly with storage time, with resultant increased
hemolysis of RBCs. A recent hypothesis has emerged regarding the
adverse effects of transfusion of stored blood. Cell-free ferrous
hemoglobin in the plasma, after transfusion of stored blood, rapidly
destroys nitric oxide by oxidation to methemoglobin and nitrate.
Nitric oxide reacts at least 1,000 times more rapidly with free
hemoglobin than with erythrocytes. Limited nitric oxide
bioavailability promotes regional and systemic vasoconstriction
andsubsequent organ dysfunction"

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 14 Oct 2007 19:14 GMT
>>> On Oct 13, 12:01 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:your hemolysis mis
>>> theory in donated blood <<
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
> http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

OK...so you continue to leave out the sentence stating that the "study"
(composed of a puny sample of 25) and done in India...stated that on day 28
of storage...free Hgb..ie hemolysis...in all the rbc units were below the
.8% level of hemolysis...

that means that 99.2% of the blood was NOT hemolyzed...ie.."good blood"

I'd take those odds over the alternative...often death..
Manky Badger - 14 Oct 2007 21:18 GMT
> OK...so you continue to leave out the sentence stating that the "study"
> (composed of a puny sample of 25) and done in India...stated that on day
> 28 of storage...free Hgb..ie hemolysis...in all the rbc units were below
> the .8% level of hemolysis...

I'm not as "up" on blood bank as I once was, but if I recall correctly,
blood is only stored for 35 days before it is deemed as "expired" - very
little sits around that long in the blood bank.
Does much even get to 28 days and still not having been used? I suspect not.
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 14 Oct 2007 21:20 GMT
>> OK...so you continue to leave out the sentence stating that the "study"
>> (composed of a puny sample of 25) and done in India...stated that on day
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Does much even get to 28 days and still not having been used? I suspect
> not.

true....thus the % of hemolysis..if any...in transfusions is likely to be so
low as to not overrule the need for the blood...

just Tommy and I trying to dispute....reason doesn't work with him tho
Manky Badger - 14 Oct 2007 22:47 GMT
>>> OK...so you continue to leave out the sentence stating that the "study"
>>> (composed of a puny sample of 25) and done in India...stated that on day
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> just Tommy and I trying to dispute....reason doesn't work with him tho

He's a case, isn't he  - I'm waiting for the attempts at swearing and the
dots..... :o)
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 14 Oct 2007 23:02 GMT
>>>> OK...so you continue to leave out the sentence stating that the "study"
>>>> (composed of a puny sample of 25) and done in India...stated that on
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> He's a case, isn't he  - I'm waiting for the attempts at swearing and the
> dots..... :o)

ahhhh....the dots...cannot wait either...
ironjustice@aol.com - 13 Oct 2007 15:21 GMT
On Oct 12, 12:41 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: funny...you still
ignore the replies with "facts" that don't agree with your ignorance
<<

Actually .. it is Blood Bag Handling 101 and the fact .. YOU .. don't
know .. Blood Bag Handling 101 .. makes YOU ..
stupid .. NOT .. ignorant .. BECAUSE ..? .. It .. IS .. Blood Bag
Handling 101 ..

"RBC hemolysis is known to occur during blood collection, processing,
handling and storage within the transfusion service and also during
transport to the patient's bedside."

http://www.ajts.org/article.asp?issn=0973-6247;year=2007;volume=1;issue=2;spage=
47;epage=51;aulast=Sawant


Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

> <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 118 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 13 Oct 2007 19:59 GMT
> On Oct 12, 12:41 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: funny...you still
> ignore the replies with "facts" that don't agree with your ignorance
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> handling and storage within the transfusion service and also during
> transport to the patient's bedside."

if you had read it all...you might not have missed this sentence" However on
day 28 of storage free hemoglobin in ALL the RBC units was below the
acceptable level of .8% hemolysis"

that means...less than 1% of the blood bag blood was hemolyzed....likely due
also to the size of the needles used in the blood draw

and your "proof" comes from India...and the sample size was a mere
25....hardly earthshaking data..esp coming from a nation with amongst the
worse records in healthcare...etc

> http://www.ajts.org/article.asp?issn=0973-6247;year=2007;volume=1;issue=2;spage=
47;epage=51;aulast=Sawant

>
[quoted text clipped - 151 lines]
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
Hawki63@sbcglobal.net - 11 Oct 2007 00:30 GMT
you obviously don't understand the etiology of hemolysis

if you think you do...funny it wasn't ,mentioned in the article

study harder...better yet...use a dictionary

> Hemolysis .. ?
>
[quoted text clipped - 131 lines]
> DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
> http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ironjustice@aol.com - 11 Oct 2007 01:34 GMT
>> On Oct 10, 4:30 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
you obviously don't understand the etiology of hemolysis <<

"the etiology of hemolysis"

Definition of etiology : the cause or origin of disease

I .. do .. know what etiology .. means .. and it don't mean .. ONE ..
thing.

Sooo .. seeing you don't even KNOW .. the words you USE .. makes one
wonder if going to a medical professional such as yourself .. what was
it .. "Nurse Practioner" .. would be a wise .. move ..

The sheer number of people you and your ilk have been PROVEN to be
killing .. kind of gives evidence to the fact it would NOT .. be ..
wise.

Or .. "he chose poorly" ..

Heh .. heh ..

Now go back to alt.health ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

> if you think you do...funny it wasn't ,mentioned in the article
>
[quoted text clipped - 137 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Arcie - 18 Jan 2008 02:51 GMT
Guys,

I know you enjoy arguing with each other, but for those here trying to
make sense of all the varied literature on the subject let me state a
few things.

The are a number of events that happen during the process of collecting,
preserving, storing and transfusion of packed RBC that can and often do
lead to slight hemolysis in a percentage of donated blood units prior to
a patient actually receiving a transfusion.  And it is valid to site
studies that show that aged, stored RBC units have a higher level of
hemolysis.

The article on nitric oxide availability in units of stored RBC does not
mention the reason for the lack of nitric oxide in stored PRBC (packed
Red blood cells).  Presumably the same processes which happen in the
human body would continue to happen in the bag of donated PRBC causing a
drop in available nutrients including nitric oxide as the blood ages.

It also does not tell the reader that the patient receiving stored PRBC
is receiving a blood volume less than their system already has available
so the nitric oxide shortage should be corrected shortly after transfusion.

One point Tom does make is the increase in available free iron carried
in the units of stored PRBC as a result of the "slight" hemolysis.  My
question is would this "bolus" of free iron be enough to overwhelm a
persons normal nitric oxide cycle if they are severely anemic?  We are
actually talking about a 1% level of hemolysis in the units. But how
much free iron does that represent?. Might it be enough to cause
increased complications in patients with diminished peripheral
circulation, such as advance diabetes or compromised coronary
circulation in patients with an acute myocardial infarction?

I love reading the arguments...it is entertaining...but could we stop
for a minute and actually discuss the significance of these papers and
whether their might be some reason for the results we are seeing in each..?

_______________________________________________________________________________

>>> On Oct 10, 4:30 pm, <Hawk...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>  you obviously don't understand the etiology of hemolysis <<
[quoted text clipped - 146 lines]
>>> http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk- Hide quoted text -
>> - Show quoted text -
Manky Badger - 18 Jan 2008 08:39 GMT
> I love reading the arguments...it is entertaining...but could we stop
> for a minute and actually discuss the significance of these papers and
> whether their might be some reason for the results we are seeing in
> each..?

You're new here, aren't you ;o)
Arcie - 18 Jan 2008 14:50 GMT
OOOPs...sorry thought this was World of Warcraft....

No not really new, just mostly silent.

>> I love reading the arguments...it is entertaining...but could we stop
>> for a minute and actually discuss the significance of these papers and
>> whether their might be some reason for the results we are seeing in
>> each..?
>
> You're new here, aren't you ;o)
Manky Badger - 18 Jan 2008 15:45 GMT
> OOOPs...sorry thought this was World of Warcraft....
>
> No not really new, just mostly silent.

Then surely you must realise the futility of attempting to debate anything
ferrous :o)

>>> I love reading the arguments...it is entertaining...but could we stop
>>> for a minute and actually discuss the significance of these papers and
>>> whether their might be some reason for the results we are seeing in
>>> each..?
>>
>> You're new here, aren't you ;o)
 
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