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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Lupus / December 2003

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Methotrexate Update & Other News

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JDWAT@webtv.net - 22 Dec 2003 17:15 GMT
Well, I did it.  I woke up with a mouth full of assertive words &
various phrases & called the pharmacy first to get prices & then the
doctor.  I was told that I'd have to come for my shot tomorrow (Tuesday)
if I got one this week, cause come Wed., they were locking up & going
home.  That means if they don't call in the MTX, I'll be down for
Christmas from the shot.

I asked for a 10ml bottle vs. the 2ml as it was just $15.00 more for
5x's the amount.  I told her that I'd take it by mouth if they didn't
want me to do the shot.  I'd come in at night, every fourth week & do my
lab.  If I missed a lab, they could punish me by making me spend twice
more on 2ml bottles. : )

I spent the better part of two days in bed, asleep. My Neck & back
really took a beating from cleaning snow off my car's roof.  If my
brother hadn't done it for the second snow we got just 3 days later, I'd
really be bumming.  Well, I take that back.  I'd a just cleaned the
windows & drove it around until it all blew off.

I did read some & see that Grace is back with us.  Will keep you in my
prayers for complete recovery Grace.  It did my heart good to see you
post.

Cindy W.  I'll go find your post & get to know you a bit.  I'm glad to
learn you posted.  You have been missed around here & Iook forward to
getting to know you.

Wishing you all a meaningful & very Merry Christmas,

Maggie


NW - 22 Dec 2003 18:49 GMT
Sounds good, Maggie. Much better to be able to take the shots at home. It's
unfortunate that you get nausea even from the injections, though. I don't feel a
thing from my 20 mg pills. Sometimes I suspect they are just sliding trough me and
coming out undigested. Oh well.

Happy Holidays to you too!

Nina
Mercy - 22 Dec 2003 19:08 GMT
Nina, she is not injecting.... she is putting the liquid into a drink and
still ingesting it.... thus the tummy problems.  I am trying to convince her
to some how get somebody to show her how to inject.  I hope she is
successful with this.

Nettie

> Sounds good, Maggie. Much better to be able to take the shots at home. It's
> unfortunate that you get nausea even from the injections, though. I don't feel a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Nina
NW - 22 Dec 2003 19:22 GMT
> Nina, she is not injecting.... she is putting the liquid into a drink and
> still ingesting it.... thus the tummy problems.  I am trying to convince her
> to some how get somebody to show her how to inject.  I hope she is
> successful with this.

Nope, she usually gets injections at her doctor, but has taken MTX into a drink only
the last couple of weeks.

Nina
Mercy - 22 Dec 2003 19:37 GMT
Right....  what I mean is that she is not self injecting at home.  I hope
she can learn to do this to help her tummy.  This is what I had to do and it
really helps a lot.  You only do it SubQ too so there is no pain involved.

Nettie

> > Nina, she is not injecting.... she is putting the liquid into a drink and
> > still ingesting it.... thus the tummy problems.  I am trying to convince her
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Nina
NW - 22 Dec 2003 19:44 GMT
> Right....  what I mean is that she is not self injecting at home.  I hope
> she can learn to do this to help her tummy.  This is what I had to do and it
> really helps a lot.  You only do it SubQ too so there is no pain involved.

Yes, it's really easy. I don't feel a thing from my Enbrel shots. Just like sticking
into butter!

Nina
JDWAT@webtv.net - 22 Dec 2003 20:02 GMT
Okay, I'll try an injection next week?  I don't want to do it this week
cause one, I promised to "take it by mouth, for now."  My exact words.
And two, no way can I build up the nerve by Thursday.  I normally get it
Wed., but she has already called & told me Thurs. evening would be fine.
That way, I'm not down on Christmas Day.  

I have short needles here.  Is that sufficient for the tummy?  I think
it'd probably do better in the thigh with short insulin needles,
wouldn't it?

I have to go get the MTX soon, so will check back in later.  Thank you
Nettie & Nina!  Nina & Nettie?  That sounds kewel. : )

Hugs,
Maggie
Mercy - 23 Dec 2003 01:33 GMT
Short needles are fine cuz you are only going into the upper layers of your
skin.  Make sure you pull back on the plunger a tad first before pushing in
the MTX.  You want to make sure you are not into a blood vessel.  If you see
blood when you pull back, take it out and find a new place.  I do them in my
thigh or sometimes my husband will give it to me in the fatty upper hip
area.  Whatever works for you.  I have never done it into my abdomen.  Good
luck and write me if you need to.

Nettie

> Okay, I'll try an injection next week?  I don't want to do it this week
> cause one, I promised to "take it by mouth, for now."  My exact words.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Hugs,
> Maggie
JDWAT@webtv.net - 22 Dec 2003 19:40 GMT
Hi Nina!

I keep meaning to ask you about the dose you're on.  They told me that I
can't take the pills if I'm on more than 17.5mg.  Has anyone ever told
you this?  I wonder if there are different types of MTX or something?

Actually, I'm not going to be taking injections.....yet.   I do have 20
insulin needles
at my disposal, however.  For the last 3 weeks I have mixed the liquid
in juice & drank it.  It hasn't bothered me thus far, but I am careful
to not eat high fat foods & gobs of protein in one sitting the day or so
before my dose as well as the couple of days following.  This has made
all the difference.  If I do get nauseated, I have the syringes ready &
I'm willing, but I promised I'd do the liquid for now.  I was worried
that they'd make me come in for an injection class or something & I am
scared to go to the hospital with the flu running rampant through the
halls.
: )  I know how to do the injections, but when someone of authority
tells me no, then my head creates this fear of death & even
worse.....eating crow! :-þ

Hugs,
Maggie
NW - 22 Dec 2003 20:07 GMT
My old RD said more than 20 mg should be taken as injections, but I'll ask my new RD
when I see him.

Hopefully you'll keep on doing well on the liquid stuff,

Nina

Hi Nina!

I keep meaning to ask you about the dose you're on.  They told me that I
can't take the pills if I'm on more than 17.5mg.  Has anyone ever told
you this?  I wonder if there are different types of MTX or something?

Actually, I'm not going to be taking injections.....yet.   I do have 20
insulin needles
at my disposal, however.  For the last 3 weeks I have mixed the liquid
in juice & drank it.  It hasn't bothered me thus far, but I am careful
to not eat high fat foods & gobs of protein in one sitting the day or so
before my dose as well as the couple of days following.  This has made
all the difference.  If I do get nauseated, I have the syringes ready &
I'm willing, but I promised I'd do the liquid for now.  I was worried
that they'd make me come in for an injection class or something & I am
scared to go to the hospital with the flu running rampant through the
halls.
: )  I know how to do the injections, but when someone of authority
tells me no, then my head creates this fear of death & even
worse.....eating crow! :-?

Hugs,
Maggie
Mercy - 23 Dec 2003 01:29 GMT
Maggie, MTX should not be taken with Vit. C or folic acid.... so don't drink
orange juice with your MTX and skip the folic acid until the following day.
Good luck.

Nettie

Hi Nina!

I keep meaning to ask you about the dose you're on.  They told me that I
can't take the pills if I'm on more than 17.5mg.  Has anyone ever told
you this?  I wonder if there are different types of MTX or something?

Actually, I'm not going to be taking injections.....yet.   I do have 20
insulin needles
at my disposal, however.  For the last 3 weeks I have mixed the liquid
in juice & drank it.  It hasn't bothered me thus far, but I am careful
to not eat high fat foods & gobs of protein in one sitting the day or so
before my dose as well as the couple of days following.  This has made
all the difference.  If I do get nauseated, I have the syringes ready &
I'm willing, but I promised I'd do the liquid for now.  I was worried
that they'd make me come in for an injection class or something & I am
scared to go to the hospital with the flu running rampant through the
halls.
: )  I know how to do the injections, but when someone of authority
tells me no, then my head creates this fear of death & even
worse.....eating crow! :-?

Hugs,
Maggie
NW - 23 Dec 2003 10:36 GMT
> Maggie, MTX should not be taken with Vit. C or folic acid.... so don't drink
> orange juice with your MTX and skip the folic acid until the following day.
> Good luck.

Nettie, are you sure about the vitamin C stuff? I've never heard or read that MTX
shouldn't be taken with that. RxList doesn't mention vitamin C either.
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/mtx_wcp.htm

Nina
Mercy - 23 Dec 2003 18:13 GMT
I am getting this info from a fella who know a lot about nutrition, etc.  He
said not to so I don't just to be on the safe side.  It is not a big deal to
not take it IMO... just for that one day.  Also, I have heard to never take
your meds with grapefruit juice.  It can cause a bad tummy reaction.

Just passing along info that I have heard to you.  Don't bet your buttie on
it though.  But for me, I trust this person and do what he suggests.  Hope
this helps you.

Nettie  :>))

> > Maggie, MTX should not be taken with Vit. C or folic acid.... so don't drink
> > orange juice with your MTX and skip the folic acid until the following day.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Nina
JDWAT@webtv.net - 23 Dec 2003 19:06 GMT
Aww Flitter!  I hope your wrong about the Vit C.  The nurse told me to
take it with juice & that's what I've been doing.  I haven't been taking
OJ, but most juice has a good amount, I think.  

Speaking of....Did you know that grapefruit juice can cause certain meds
to become more potent in your system.  They were studying it when I was
on Imuran.  I'd say I read this about 1996 or '97 maybe.  They warned
against taking immunosupressants in combo with grapefruit.  Also blood
thinners & other serious meds. In fact they were hoping to come up with
a way to help people take less meds by supplementing it with grapefruit.
I have never heard another thing about it since, but I found it so
interesting at the time.  They may have discovered they were wrong or
maybe the pharmaceutical company's sent the researches to Bermuda, via
the triangle. :-Þ

Hugs4uBoth,
Maggie
J - 23 Dec 2003 19:39 GMT
> Aww Flitter!  I hope your wrong about the Vit C.  The nurse told me to
> take it with juice & that's what I've been doing.  I haven't been taking
> OJ, but most juice has a good amount, I think.
>
> Speaking of....Did you know that grapefruit juice can cause certain meds
> to become more potent in your system.  T

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/english/iyh/food/grapefruit.html Canadian Gov't
webpage

Consuming grapefruit or its juice (fresh or frozen) can increase, or less
commonly decrease, the effects of some drugs. There are several substances
in grapefruit that interfere with the way your body handles certain drugs.

These effects are known to be caused by the combination of grapefruit and
its juice with certain drugs and health products used in the treatment of
medical conditions, including, but not limited to:

<see list>

Sour oranges, such as Seville, or their juice, may have an effect similar to
grapefruit juice. Most other citrus fruits, such as lemons, limes, citrons,
naturally sweet oranges and tangerines are not thought to have this effect.
However, tangellos, a hybrid of grapefruit, may also interfere with drugs.

...
Canadian "Dartmouth Community Medical School"
<http://www.dartmouth.edu/dms/news/publications/dartmed/fall00/html/bench_to_beds
ide.shtml
>

So far, the medications known to interact with grapefruit juice include
immunosuppressant drugs (such as cyclosporine); calcium channel blockers
(felodipine, amlodipine, verapamil, nifedipine, nisoldipine), which are used
to treat blood pressure or angina; many sedatives and anxiolytics
(midazolam, triazolam, alprazolam); certain hormones (estrogens and
corticosteroids); antihistamines (astemizole and terfenadine, the latter now
unavailable in the United States); certain antiseizure drugs
(carbamazepine); many of the statin drugs (atorvastatin, simvastatin,
lovastatin), which are used to lower blood lipids; and certain drugs used to
treat AIDS (the protease inhibitors ritonavir, saquinivir, and indinavir).
Other drugs are continually being added to this list.

As far as we know, no other fruits--such as apples, oranges, or cranberries
(or their juices)-- have the same effect that grapefruit does. The
grapefruit effect is probably due to certain of its chemical
components--6',7'-dihydroxybergamottin (a furanocoumarin) and/or naringin or
naringenin (both flavonoids)--which are thought to inhibit the CYP3A4 enzyme
in the small intestine.

We know we must make physicians and patients aware of how grapefruit juice
can affect many oral medications, but efforts to bring the issue to public
attention have had varied success around the world. Australia seems to be at
the forefront: pharmacists there are required by law to attach labels to
containers of cyclosporine, felodipine, midazolam, nifedipine, nisoldipine,
quinidine, terazosin, terfenadine, and triazolam stating: "Avoid eating
grapefruit and drinking grapefruit juice while being treated with this
medication." But other known grapefruit-drug interactions that could cause
considerable morbidity have not been so overtly flagged. And in the U.S.,
the warnings that appear in even the most recent edition (2000) of the
Physicians' Desk Reference are not comprehensive,

??
JDWAT@webtv.net - 23 Dec 2003 19:51 GMT
Wow!  So, they did finish the study.  Thanks for that J!  : )  

Hope you have a Merry Christmas!

aHug4u,
Maggie
J - 24 Dec 2003 10:45 GMT
> Wow!  So, they did finish the study.  Thanks for that J!  : )
>
> Hope you have a Merry Christmas!

Thanks and same to you, Maggie.
I did not draw the same conclusion. One had more information than the
other, but one said the PDA was not up to date.
So I drink water :-)
J
Mercy - 23 Dec 2003 20:15 GMT
Thanks J for the info..... by the way, what was that private e-mail all
about?  I do not understand.  I wrote you back.  What is going on?  I am at
a total loss of understanding about that situation.

Nettie

> > Aww Flitter!  I hope your wrong about the Vit C.  The nurse told me to
> > take it with juice & that's what I've been doing.  I haven't been taking
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> ...
> Canadian "Dartmouth Community Medical School"

<http://www.dartmouth.edu/dms/news/publications/dartmed/fall00/html/bench_to
_bedside.shtml>

> So far, the medications known to interact with grapefruit juice include
> immunosuppressant drugs (such as cyclosporine); calcium channel blockers
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> ??
Larry Walker - 24 Dec 2003 02:31 GMT
How true, I have a little sticker on my prescription warning not to
take grapefruit or juice with MTX.

>>>---LDW---->

===================================================----------

>> Aww Flitter!  I hope your wrong about the Vit C.  The nurse told me to
>> take it with juice & that's what I've been doing.  I haven't been taking
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>
>??
Mercy - 23 Dec 2003 20:11 GMT
That is very interesting.....  thanks for the feedback.

Nettie

Aww Flitter!  I hope your wrong about the Vit C.  The nurse told me to
take it with juice & that's what I've been doing.  I haven't been taking
OJ, but most juice has a good amount, I think.

Speaking of....Did you know that grapefruit juice can cause certain meds
to become more potent in your system.  They were studying it when I was
on Imuran.  I'd say I read this about 1996 or '97 maybe.  They warned
against taking immunosupressants in combo with grapefruit.  Also blood
thinners & other serious meds. In fact they were hoping to come up with
a way to help people take less meds by supplementing it with grapefruit.
I have never heard another thing about it since, but I found it so
interesting at the time.  They may have discovered they were wrong or
maybe the pharmaceutical company's sent the researches to Bermuda, via
the triangle. :-?

Hugs4uBoth,
Maggie
janers - 23 Dec 2003 19:26 GMT
Never take grapefruit juice with some HEART and or bp  medications.  It
effects the  way the medication works.
It has nothing to do with stomach being upset or irritated it has to do
with the absorption of the drug.  Ask your pharmacist about any heart or bp
med and IF the grapefruit juice will effect it.
Most will put it on the label, but some just do not.  sad....
.
As far as Vitamin C?  I have never heard it effecting mtx or any other drug
but HEY, what do I know.  tee hee

Vitamin C right now is what everyone needs to up due to the flu season.  It
was in the paper and also on some journals of medicine.  It is suppose to
ward off the little bugs ya pick up.

janers
Mercy - 23 Dec 2003 20:13 GMT
I was told to just not take Vit C the day I take MTX....  the next day I can
continue.  Also no folic acid the day I take MTX because it could hinder to
absorption or something of the MTX so I wouldn't get the full benefit.

Nettie

> Never take grapefruit juice with some HEART and or bp  medications.  It
> effects the  way the medication works.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> janers
Leeb57 - 23 Dec 2003 23:55 GMT
Maggie,

Are you taking folic acid? grape seed extract?  my wife takes both of those to
cut down on some nausea.

Also, try breaking your weekly shot into an AM and PM does that helps the body
"accept" it better.

Lee
JDWAT@webtv.net - 24 Dec 2003 01:03 GMT
Hi Lee!

Good to hear from you & thanks for responding! I didn't realize you
could break the shot down like you do pills.  I guess it never occured
to me as I've been going to the doctor to get it.  Now, I'm like; well
of course you can.  The doctor can't do this though cuz Medicare will
have a cow!  lol!

I'm going to enjoy doing this at home, I'll tell ya that now.  The
nausea probably won't bother me too much, just *because* I can do it at
home.  I can live with some nausea so long as I'm in the comfort of me
own pail.  : )  I am going to try the Folic Acid though.  I was so
excited when the nurse called me back that I forgot all about asking her
how much they wanted me to take of it.

I hope you have a wonderful Christmas, you & your wife  Tell her hello,
will ya.  Whenever she's up to posting, we'll be glad to meet her.

Hugs,
Maggie
Mercy - 22 Dec 2003 19:06 GMT
Maggie, can you find a nurse that can teach you how to inject?  There has
got to be a way.  It will help your tummy.  You can purchase diabetic
needles.  There is absolutely no pain in doing it this way.  Or else, ask a
diabetic insulin dependent person to show you how.  Your tummy will love you
for it.  Guarantee!!

Nettie

> Well, I did it.  I woke up with a mouth full of assertive words &
> various phrases & called the pharmacy first to get prices & then the
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Maggie
 
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