Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Lupus / October 2008
Burning Pain
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ironjustice@aol.com - 20 Oct 2008 22:01 GMT Erythromelalgia can be increased red blood cell production. Is it coincidence .. ?
"Most cases of Erythromelalgia (EM) are idiopathic (cause unknown). Sometimes EM is secondary to other medical conditions including autoimmune, neurologic or blood disorders. Lupus, polycythemia vera and multiple sclerosis are examples."
"Symptoms ... symptoms may include hands or feet that are very red to purple in color, are perhaps swollen, hot to the touch, and have burning pain.
Location ... symptoms may appear in the face, ears, knees or other parts of the body.... Some notice a continual burning pain while others are troubled with "flare-ups" or episodes lasting from minutes to days in length.
Triggers ... flare-ups are provoked by heat and exercise, and symptoms are relieved by cooling and elevating the affected extremities. Some TEA members have found that foods, spices like MSG, beverages (particularly alcohol) and some drugs can make symptoms worse."
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/634q5a
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/4rq595
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
anonymous@nowhere.you.know - 20 Oct 2008 23:08 GMT "autoimmune, neurologic or blood disorders. Lupus, polycythemia vera"
These are examples which in past were shown to refute the all disease is caused by peopleeating meat and its iron idea. India with low meat usage has among the highest rate of them.
India with the absolute highest rate of diabetes is another refutation of the idea.
ironjustice - 21 Oct 2008 01:53 GMT "autoimmune, neurologic or blood disorders. Lupus, polycythemia vera" <<
"Erythromelalgia is not caused by increased red blood cell production in lupus or multiple sclerosis" ..
Put a few articles UP with your .. evaluation .. or stfu ..
Pretty simple stuff ..
Put up .. or .. shut .. up ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/634q5a
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/4rq595
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
anonymous@nowhere.you.know - 21 Oct 2008 16:29 GMT "autoimmune, neurologic or blood disorders. Lupus, polycythemia vera"
These are examples which in past were shown to refute the all disease is caused by peopleeating meat and its iron idea. India with low meat usage has among the highest rate of them.
India with the absolute highest rate of diabetes is another refutation of the idea.
TAhe reply:
"Put a few articles UP with your .. evaluation .. or stfu .."
Oh, the articles have been put up. We are very sure you mmade a point of bookmarking them for your extensive "research". Or, don't tell us now you did not bookmark them because you wanted to forget them? No, that could not be possible from such a "serious" and "honest" "researcher", not possible at all because all information is considered not just cherry picked information.
ironjustice - 21 Oct 2008 17:47 GMT India with low meat usage has among the highest rate of them. <<
This is the study which you seem to have a problem with understanding ..
"Asians and Pacific Islanders have high levels of iron in the blood"
The Asian / Pacific people have the highest iron levels ..
IF .. and it seems you .. are .. INTENT on 'discovering WHY' .. Indians have such a high iron level and such a high death rate .. you should get on it ..
BE ... cause .. if you haven't understood by NOW .. my stance IS .. those with high iron will manifest disease at a high rate .. specifically diabetes.
Now diabetes is very high in India .. and they have high iron levels ..
Now go discover WHY .. they DO .. have high iron levels ..
Let me save you some time .. thalassemia ..
----------------
Hemochromatosis: "Surprising" Findings About Iron OverloadUAB and international scientists studying iron-overload disorders have made the unexpected discovery that Asians and Pacific Islanders have the highest levels of iron in their blood of all racial/ethnic groups who were screened.
Individuals who develop hemochromatosis/iron overload absorb an excessive amount of iron from food and supplements ingested. The abnormality affects many people worldwide, is prevalent in the South, and sometimes causes organ damage when severe iron deposition occurs due to inadequate control of iron absorption by the small intestine.
The first major report of findings in the five-year, 100,000-person study was published in The New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM), April 28. The University of Alabama at Birmingham received $3.1 million of study funds to screen 20,000 people for the group of disorders called hemochromatosis and iron overload.
Ronald T. Acton, PhD, professor of microbiology and director of the UAB Immunogenetics Program, is principal investigator for the Birmingham Field Center that did the screening. James C. Barton, MD, director of the Southern Iron Disorders Center and UAB clinical professor of medicine, is co-principal investigator. They exceeded the goal of screening 10,000 African-Americans and 10,000 whites for blood iron levels or the presence of mutations in a gene, called the HFE gene, which evidence suggests regulates iron absorption.
“Hemochromatosis and iron overload are easily treatable if diagnosed early, but the simple blood test that could detect these conditions is not performed as part of routine medical exams,” said Acton. Delaying treatment — the weekly removal of a pint of blood by phlebotomy — can permit the progressive accumulation of iron deposits in target organs that may result in complications such as cirrhosis of the liver, liver cancer, arthritis, diabetes, impotence and heart failure.
“The finding that Asians and Pacific Islanders have high levels of iron in the blood is surprising because they also have the lowest prevalence of the particular gene mutation that is found in Caucasians with the typical form of hemochromatosis,” he said. “This may mean that the Asians and Pacific Islanders have a different genetic mutation that has not yet been discovered, or that they do not, for some reason, develop hemochromatosis/iron overload despite their high blood levels of iron.”
He said that the NEJM paper is the first report from analysis of the massive data arising from the study, called the Hemochromatosis and Iron Overload Screening (HEIRS) Study. The study is funded by the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute and the National Human Genome Research Institute.
The other HEIRS Study Field Centers were located at University of California, Irvine; London Health Sciences Centre, Ontario, Canada; Howard University, Washington, DC; and Kaiser Permanente Center for Health Research (Oregon and Hawaii). Wake Forest University in Winston- Salem, NC coordinated the Study, and the Study’s Central Laboratory is located at the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis.
At the beginning of the study in 2000, it was known that most cases of hemochromatosis in Caucasians resulted from common mutations in the HFE gene, first discovered in 1996. At that time, little was known about the causes of iron overload in other racial/ethnic groups.
Major findings of the study include: * Caucasians had the highest prevalence of persons who had two copies of the C282Y mutation of the HFE gene (4.4 per 1,000 people).
* Prevalence of two copies of the C282Y mutation of the HFE gene in other racial/ethnic groups were: Native Americans (1.1 per 1,000), Hispanics (2.7 per 10,000), African-Americans (1.4 per 10,000), Pacific Islanders (1.2 per 10,000) and Asians (3.9 per 10 million).
* Most participants who had two copies of the C282Y mutation of the HFE gene also had elevated levels of iron in their blood.
* Men who had two copies of the C282Y mutation of the HFE gene were more likely to report a history of liver disease than participants without HFE mutations.
“Our findings in Caucasians confirm reports from previous smaller studies,” said Acton. “Our findings in non-Caucasians help everyone understand the prevalence of these conditions in other racial/ethnic groups.”
He added that many white Alabamians have Celtic origins, with some counties reporting Irish ancestry in 17% of the population. “The hemochromatosis C282Y mutation is thought to have occurred among Celtic or Scandinavian populations 1,500 to 3,000 years ago, and the mutation may have helped them survive iron-poor diets.”
Hemochromatosis or iron overload occur in 0.3-0.5% of white persons of northern, central, and western European descent. In fact, a health- screening program conducted by Barton and Acton at an Alabama forest products mill detected the disorder in 0.39% of all white participants, and 0.53% of white men.
Acton and Barton said they hope that results of the study will prompt more primary care physicians to consider hemochromatosis and iron overload as a diagnosis. Nationwide studies indicate it takes an average of 9 years and three physicians to obtain a correct diagnosis, partly because physicians incorrectly believe that such disorders are rare, or that they affect only older men. A previous UAB study found that primary care physicians provided fewer than 70% correct responses about screening at-risk populations for hemochromatosis, iron overload, and associated abnormalities.
As the HEIRS Study shows, iron overload was mistakenly believed to be a disorder that is limited to Caucasians, said Acton. He, Barton, and others have begun studying the role of iron overload and HFE mutations in the development of type 2 diabetes in persons of various racial/ ethnic groups.
Media Contact: Hank Black (205) 934-8938 E-mail: hblack@uab.edu
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/634q5a
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/4rq595
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
> India with the absolute highest rate of diabetes is another refutation > of the idea. anonymous@nowhere.you.know - 21 Oct 2008 19:57 GMT Low meat and high disease, what does this natural experiment tell us?
"autoimmune, neurologic or blood disorders. Lupus, polycythemia vera"
These are examples which in past were shown to refute the all disease is caused by peopleeating meat and its iron idea. India with low meat usage has among the highest rate of them.
India with the absolute highest rate of diabetes is another refutation of the idea.
ironjustice - 21 Oct 2008 23:47 GMT On Oct 21, 11:57 am, anonym...@nowhere.you.know wrote: Low meat and high disease, what does this natural experiment tell us? <<
I know what it tells .. you ..
EVEN THOUGH .. it was explained to you ..
You say meat isn't involved .. and are INSISTING .. meat isn't involved .. IE: posting the SAME .. speil .. on my posts .. over and over.
I show with medical studies provided .. iron reduction limits manifestation and CURE of genetic disease IE: sickle cell disease / long term remission .
Now you AGAIN are beginning to follow my posts and post your .. drivel / one line about India .. to everyone of my posts .. aren't ya .. weird hat wearing .. guy ..
Now it looks like you are capable of some pretty low-life sht.
Alot like your friend .. j ..
Mercury .. ?
Vaccinations .. ?
Did breast implants bother ya .. too .. ?
Probably did .. most guys they don't bother .. but I will assume YOU have something against them .. eh .. screwball ..
Heh .. heh ..
Stick with dioxins or mercury or whatever weird agenda you have today and forget about trying to prove me .. wrong.
Repeating sht .. isn't PROVING .. anything.
It is just plain .. laziness.
It ain't .. pretty ..
"It's the smoke"
"Smoke contains dioxins"
"They spilled dioxins in south India somewhere."
"They sold mercury in India too"
"Thinking about dioxins causes dioxin poisoning"
"Thinking about vaccination causes dioxin poisoning and / or mercury toxicity"
"Petting your dog gives you dioxin poisoning"
"Don't those breast just turn you right .. off ?"
That pretty much cover it .. ?
Get back to me if it .. doesn't ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/634q5a
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/4rq595
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/634q5a
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/4rq595
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
anonymous@nowhere.you.know - 22 Oct 2008 21:00 GMT Low meat and high disease, what does this natural experiment tell us?
"autoimmune, neurologic or blood disorders. Lupus, polycythemia vera"
These are examples which in past were shown to refute the all disease is caused by peopleeating meat and its iron idea. India with low meat usage has among the highest rate of them.
India with the absolute highest rate of diabetes is another refutation of the idea.
The reply:
"Low meat and high disease, what does this natural experiment tell us?
"autoimmune, neurologic or blood disorders. Lupus, polycythemia vera"
These are examples which in past were shown to refute the all disease is caused by peopleeating meat and its iron idea. India with low meat usage has among the highest rate of them.
India with the absolute highest rate of diabetes is another refutation of the idea."
The reply:
"I show with medical studies provided .. iron reduction limits manifestation and CURE of genetic disease IE: sickle cell disease / long term remission ."
The cause of sickle cell anemia is genetic and is an adaptation to a common disease. Eating meat does not cause it, your parents do.
Reducing salt can help high blood pressure but salt is not the cause of it.
You show medical studies, you do not understand them and very often come to false conclusions because you do not understand them.
This weakens the all disease is caused by eating meat because of its iron idea. An idea now long ago refuted and in large part by your own efforts and lack of knowledge.
ironjustice@aol.com - 22 Oct 2008 21:25 GMT On Oct 22, 1:00 pm, anonym...@nowhere.you.know wrote: The cause of sickle cell anemia is genetic and is an adaptation to a common disease. <<
Do .. **I** .. care .. what a .. loons' .. "take" on .. my theories .. are .. ?
Do .. I.. ?
Take your **one** whining .. line .. and .. fk off .. whining little .. btch ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/634q5a
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/4rq595
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
anonymous@nowhere.you.know - 22 Oct 2008 22:11 GMT "I show with medical studies provided .. iron reduction limits manifestation and CURE of genetic disease IE: sickle cell disease / long term remission ."
The cause of sickle cell anemia is genetic and is an adaptation to a common disease. Eating meat does not cause it, your parents do.
Reducing salt can help high blood pressure but salt is not the cause of it.
You show medical studies, you do not understand them and very often come to false conclusions because you do not understand them.
This weakens the all disease is caused by eating meat because of its iron idea. An idea now long ago refuted and in large part by your own efforts and lack of knowledge.
The reply:
""I show with medical studies provided .. iron reduction limits manifestation and CURE of genetic disease IE: sickle cell disease / long term remission ."
The cause of sickle cell anemia is genetic and is an adaptation to a common disease. Eating meat does not cause it, your parents do.
Reducing salt can help high blood pressure but salt is not the cause of it.
You show medical studies, you do not understand them and very often come to false conclusions because you do not understand them.
This weakens the all disease is caused by eating meat because of its iron idea. An idea now long ago refuted and in large part by your own efforts and lack of knowledge."
The reply:
"Do .. **I** .. care .. what a .. loons' .. "take" on .. my theories .. are .. ?"
The loon is a magnificent bird, the nickname for the canadian dollar coin on which it appears; and that currency is now in these times stable relatively speaking.
So being on the failing end of an idea can not be attributed to a bird but to making so many mistakes that any beginning biology student learns to avoid.
When one has only a hammer, and a failed one at that, everything begins to look like a nail.
ironjustice@aol.com - 22 Oct 2008 22:59 GMT On Oct 22, 2:11 pm, anonym...@nowhere.you.know wrote: snip <<
Do .. **I** .. care .. what a .. loons' .. "take" on .. my theories .. are .. ?
Do .. I.. ?
Take your **one** whining .. line .. and .. fk off .. whining little .. btch ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/634q5a
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/4rq595
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
anonymous@nowhere.you.know - 23 Oct 2008 00:17 GMT You show medical studies, you do not understand them and very often come to false conclusions because you do not understand them.
This weakens the all disease is caused by eating meat because of its iron idea. An idea now long ago refuted and in large part by your own efforts and lack of knowledge."
The reply:
"Do .. **I** .. care .. what a .. loons' .. "take" on .. my theories .. are .. ?"
The loon is a magnificent bird, the nickname for the canadian dollar coin on which it appears; and that currency is now in these times stable relatively speaking.
So being on the failing end of an idea can not be attributed to a bird but to making so many mistakes that any beginning biology student learns to avoid.
When one has only a hammer, and a failed one at that, everything begins to look like a nail.
ironjustice@aol.com - 23 Oct 2008 01:28 GMT On Oct 22, 4:17 pm, anonym...@nowhere.you.know wrote:snip <<
Take your **one** whining .. line .. and .. fk off .. whining little .. btch ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/634q5a
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/4rq595
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
> You show medical studies, you do not understand them and very often come > to false conclusions because you do not understand them. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > When one has only a hammer, and a failed one at that, everything begins > to look like a nail. anonymous@nowhere.you.know - 23 Oct 2008 14:00 GMT You show medical studies, you do not understand them and very often come to false conclusions because you do not understand them.
This weakens the all disease is caused by eating meat because of its iron idea. An idea now long ago refuted and in large part by your own efforts and lack of knowledge."
The reply:
"Do .. **I** .. care .. what a .. loons' .. "take" on .. my theories .. are .. ?"
The loon is a magnificent bird, the nickname for the canadian dollar coin on which it appears; and that currency is now in these times stable relatively speaking.
So being on the failing end of an idea can not be attributed to a bird but to making so many mistakes that any beginning biology student learns to avoid.
When one has only a hammer, and a failed one at that, everything begins to look like a nail.
ironjustice - 24 Oct 2008 02:46 GMT On Oct 23, 6:00 am, anonym...@nowhere.you.know wrote:snip <<
Whining little .. btch ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/634q5a
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/4rq595
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
anonymous@nowhere.you.know - 24 Oct 2008 13:33 GMT You show medical studies, you do not understand them and very often come to false conclusions because you do not understand them.
This weakens the all disease is caused by eating meat because of its iron idea. An idea now long ago refuted and in large part by your own efforts and lack of knowledge."
The reply:
"Do .. **I** .. care .. what a .. loons' .. "take" on .. my theories .. are .. ?"
The loon is a magnificent bird, the nickname for the canadian dollar coin on which it appears; and that currency is now in these times stable relatively speaking.
So being on the failing end of an idea can not be attributed to a bird but to making so many mistakes that any beginning biology student learns to avoid.
When one has only a hammer, and a failed one at that, everything begins to look like a nail.
ironjustice - 24 Oct 2008 14:28 GMT On Oct 24, 5:33 am, anonym...@nowhere.you.know wrote:snip <<
Whining little .. btch ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/634q5a
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/4rq595
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
anonymous@nowhere.you.know - 24 Oct 2008 20:02 GMT You show medical studies, you do not understand them and very often come to false conclusions because you do not understand them.
This weakens the all disease is caused by eating meat because of its iron idea. An idea now long ago refuted and in large part by your own efforts and lack of knowledge."
The reply:
"Do .. **I** .. care .. what a .. loons' .. "take" on .. my theories .. are .. ?"
The loon is a magnificent bird, the nickname for the canadian dollar coin on which it appears; and that currency is now in these times stable relatively speaking.
So being on the failing end of an idea can not be attributed to a bird but to making so many mistakes that any beginning biology student learns to avoid.
When one has only a hammer, and a failed one at that, everything begins to look like a nail.
ironjustice - 24 Oct 2008 20:22 GMT On Oct 24, 12:02 pm, anonym...@nowhere.you.know wrote:snip <<
Whining little .. btch ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/634q5a
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/4rq595
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
anonymous@nowhere.you.know - 24 Oct 2008 22:19 GMT You show medical studies, you do not understand them and very often come to false conclusions because you do not understand them.
This weakens the all disease is caused by eating meat because of its iron idea. An idea now long ago refuted and in large part by your own efforts and lack of knowledge."
The reply:
"Do .. **I** .. care .. what a .. loons' .. "take" on .. my theories .. are .. ?"
The loon is a magnificent bird, the nickname for the canadian dollar coin on which it appears; and that currency is now in these times stable relatively speaking.
So being on the failing end of an idea can not be attributed to a bird but to making so many mistakes that any beginning biology student learns to avoid.
When one has only a hammer, and a failed one at that, everything begins to look like a nail.
ironjustice - 24 Oct 2008 22:37 GMT On Oct 24, 2:19 pm, anonym...@nowhere.you.know wrote:snip <<
Whining little .. btch ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/634q5a
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/4rq595
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
anonymous@nowhere.you.know - 24 Oct 2008 23:05 GMT You show medical studies, you do not understand them and very often come to false conclusions because you do not understand them.
This weakens the all disease is caused by eating meat because of its iron idea. An idea now long ago refuted and in large part by your own efforts and lack of knowledge."
The reply:
"Do .. **I** .. care .. what a .. loons' .. "take" on .. my theories .. are .. ?"
The loon is a magnificent bird, the nickname for the canadian dollar coin on which it appears; and that currency is now in these times stable relatively speaking.
So being on the failing end of an idea can not be attributed to a bird but to making so many mistakes that any beginning biology student learns to avoid.
When one has only a hammer, and a failed one at that, everything begins to look like a nail.
William R. Thompson - 25 Oct 2008 00:29 GMT anonymous@nowhere wrote:
(snip)
Please remove alt.support.lupus from your replies to Rusty. All you're doing is endlessly repeating the same reply to his endlessly-reposted off-topic weirdness. We don't need the clutter, and it's been driving people of this group.
If you want to complain about Rusty, forward his posts to abuse@telus.com
--Bill Thompson
ironjustice - 25 Oct 2008 15:34 GMT On Oct 24, 3:05 pm, anonym...@nowhere.you.know wrote:snip <<
Whining little .. btch ..
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/634q5a
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/4rq595
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ironjustice - 21 Oct 2008 05:49 GMT Erythromelalgia can be increased red blood cell production. Is it coincidence .. ? <<
This man they found erythrocytosis WHEN they found the scleroderma. COICIDENTALLY also manifesting .. erythromelagia .. burning pain.
"Erythrocytosis and Scleroderma"
"Secondary erythrocytosis with erythromelalgia."
"A diagnosis of secondary erythrocytosis with erythromelalgia was made. In addition to supple-mental oxygen, aspirin and intravenous hydration,phlebotomy was performed daily. The patient’s symptoms of hyperviscosity soon improved, as his hemoglobin and hematocrit gradually lowered to18.3 g/dL and 56.1%, respectively, after 8 sessions of phlebotomy."
Erythrocytosis in a Scleroderma Patient ERICMABO, M.D.1, TIMIEDEKI, M.D.1, GLORIAE. WESTNEY, M.D.2, JAMESW. REED, M.D.3, ANDXIAOQINGGUO, M.D.1 Abstract A 40-year-old black male with scleroderma lung disease presented with blurry vision and headache. His presenting hemoglobin was 22.3 g/dL and his serum erythropoietin level was surprisingly low. Although nocturnal hypoxemia was evident, his daytime resting arterial oxygen saturation was normal. The patient’s symptoms of hyperviscosity improved after phlebotomy, as his hemo-globin gradually decreased to 18.3 g/dL. Repeat serum erythropoietin levels were in normal and high ranges. Patients with chronic interstitial lung disease and erythrocytosis could have normoxemia at rest and a normal or low serum erythropoietin level at the peak of erythrocytosis. A repeat sampling of serum erythropoietin and monitoring of oxygen saturation during sleep and exertionmay help in diagnosis. Physicians should prescribe continuous oxygen therapy for patients with chronic interstitial lung diseaseand erythrocytosis, even if diurnal resting hypoxemia is absent. Key Words: Scleroderma lung disease, erythrocytosis, erythropoietin, polycythemia vera
Who loves ya. Tom
Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/634q5a
Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/4rq595
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
> "Most cases of Erythromelalgia (EM) are idiopathic (cause unknown). > Sometimes EM is secondary to other medical conditions including [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > DEAD PEOPLE WALKINGhttp://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
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