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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Lupus / March 2007

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Phlebotomy alternative to Hydroxychloroquine?

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ironjustice - 20 Mar 2007 06:16 GMT
Anyone care to venture a guess why phlebotomy / bloodletting isn't
used in lupus or arthritis when a drug that is an "alternative to
bloodletting" .. IS .. readily prescribed .. ?

Plaquenil - Plaquenil Side Effects - Plaquenil
Information ...Hydroxychloroquine has been beneficial for a high
percentage of patients with rheumatoid arthritis and lupus
erythematosus, especially chronic discoid lupus ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<<snip>>
hydroxychloroquine should be the preferred alternative to phlebotomy
<<snip>>

Photodermatol. 1984 Dec;1(6):286-92. Links
A comparative trial of desferrioxamine and hydroxychloroquine for
treatment of porphyria cutanea tarda in alcoholic patients.Marchesi L,
Di Padova C, Cainelli T, Reseghetti A, Di Padova F, Rovagnati P,
Cantoni L.
Forty male alcoholic patients with porphyria cutanea tarda (PCT) were
randomly assigned to 2 groups of 20. The 1st group received
desferrioxamine (30 mg/kg body weight/day for 1 week every 3 months)
whereas the latter was given hydroxychloroquine (200 mg twice/wk
orally). Alcohol abstinence was advised for all patients. Improvement
of cutaneous signs was evident after 6 months in hydroxychloroquine-
treated subjects and after 12 months in desferrioxamine-treated
subjects. At the end of the 1-year clinical trial, significant
decreases of serum iron and ferritin were found in all patients,
irrespective of the therapy. Urinary total porphyrins were reduced
significantly in both groups, but the drop was significantly more
evident in hydroxychloroquine- than in desferrioxamine-treated
subjects. After 1 year of therapy, 4 desferrioxamine-treated patients
vs 16 hydroxychloroquine-treated subjects acquired a normal urinary
porphyrin pattern. These results indicate that hydroxychloroquine is
more effective than desferrioxamine in inducing clinical and
biochemical remission of PCT. Accordingly, hydroxychloroquine should
be the preferred alternative to phlebotomy, if the latter is
contraindicated.

PMID: 6398430 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
William R  Thompson - 20 Mar 2007 08:23 GMT
Rusty "I Luv Telly Savalas" Tanner <teamtanner@hotmail.com> crossposted:

> Anyone care to venture a guess why phlebotomy / bloodletting isn't
> used in lupus or arthritis when a drug that is an "alternative to
> bloodletting" .. IS .. readily prescribed .. ?

Anyone care to venture a guess as to why you post stuff you
don't understand?  If you had bothered to read your gibberish,
you'd know the article talked about using the drug (which costs
money and has side-effects) in cases where less-expensive,
less-expensive bloodletting is contraindicated.  Rusty, why
did you decide that use of your brain is contraindicated
under all circumstances?  That foil hat of yours isn't doing
much for your pinhead.

> Photodermatol. 1984 Dec;1(6):286-92. Links

Another ancient, off-topic-cite.  You really need to stop
dumpster-diving behind medical libraries.

> Who loves ya.

Still sucking your lollypops, Rusty?

--Bill Thompson
ironjustice - 20 Mar 2007 15:43 GMT
Another ancient, off-topic-cite.  <<

The 'off-topic' .. attack is getting kind of old .. orrr .. you ARE
just as stupid as you act ..

The FACT hydroxychloroquine IS an .. iron .. **iron** .. i-r-o-n ..
chelator / binder means .. nothing TO .. you ..

Does it ..

That is because you are .. stupid ..

It is used to TARGET the **iron** in lupus .. the IRON .. in ..
lupus .. the iron in LUPUS ..

I-r-o-n .. in .. l-u-p-u-s ..

Xenobiotica. 1988 Apr;18(4):459-70.  Links

The iron-binding and hydroxyl radical scavenging action of anti-
inflammatory
drugs.

Aruoma OI, Halliwell B.

Department of Biochemistry, University of London King's College,
Strand Campus,
UK.

1. Hydroxyl radicals (.OH) are thought to be generated at sites of
inflammation
and to contribute to tissue damage. All anti-inflammatory drugs tested
were
able to scavenge .OH generated in free solution at almost diffusion-
controlled
rates (rate constants about 10(10)M-1s-1). 2. Much .OH generation in
vivo
occurs at specific sites, where bound metal ions (such as Fe2+) react
with H2O2
to produce .OH that immediately attacks the site. Only .OH scavengers
that have
sufficient metal-binding ability to withdraw metal ions from this site
can
protect against site-specific damage. 3. All anti-inflammatory drugs
tested
were able to protect against site-specific damage by .OH in a simple
model
system in vitro. Penicillamine, diclofenac sodium, piroxicam,
azathioprine,
primaquine, chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine were especially
effective. 4.
The ability of an anti-inflammatory drug to protect against .OH
formation in
vivo depends not only on its rate constant for reaction with .OH, but
also on
its metal-binding ability and on the geometry and redox potential of
any metal
complex formed.

PMID: 3135672 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
William R  Thompson - 21 Mar 2007 02:47 GMT
Rusty the Crossdressing Crossposter <teamtanner@hotmail.com> trolled:

>>> "William R  Thompson" made this brilliant observation about
Rusty's netkookery:

> Another ancient, off-topic-cite.  <<

> The 'off-topic' .. attack is getting kind of old ..

Hey, Rusty, you're the one who keeps attacking multiple
newsgroups with your off-topic twaddle!

>orrr .. you ARE just as stupid as you act ..

Yes, I do act like someone with a genius-level IQ, don't I?
I can see why that would annoy you.

> The FACT hydroxychloroquine IS an .. iron .. **iron** .. i-r-o-n ..
> chelator / binder means .. nothing TO .. you ..

That's because you're the one with the iron obsession,
as evidenced by yet another of your irrelevant, outdated cites.
We only have your word that it has anything to do with,
well, anything.

> I-r-o-n .. in .. l-u-p-u-s ..

M-O-U-S-E!

> Xenobiotica. 1988 Apr;18(4):459-70.

1988?  You're still, what, listening to your 8-track Menudo tapes?

--Bill Thompson
ironjustice - 21 Mar 2007 03:09 GMT
I-r-o-n .. in .. l-u-p-u-s ..

M-O-U-S-E!<<

<<snip>>
higher deposition of iron in rheumatoid muscle
<<snip>>

Scand J Rheumatol 1976;5(4):205-8

A comparison of the content of iron in normal and rheumatoid striated
muscle.

   Goldie IF, Bjonness T, Tiselius P, Plantin LO, Sato T

  An investigation has been carried out on the presence of iron in
  striated muscle from normal individuals and from patients with
  rheumatoid disease. The methods used for the estimation of iron
  required a neutron activation analysis of total iron and extraction
of
  hemoglobin in cyanide buffer. The results disclosed that there was
a
  higher deposition of iron in rheumatoid muscle as compared with
  normals. Iron has a destructive effect on lysosomes and mast
cells,
  the effect of which is an inflammatory reaction which may in part
  cause "metabolic myopathy" in rheumatoid disease. It is
tentatively
  suggested that this "metabolic myopathy" may cause muscular pain
and
  weakness in rheumatoid disease.

  PMID: 1006210, UI: 77080814

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
William R  Thompson - 21 Mar 2007 10:47 GMT
In a desperate plea for attention, Rusty <teamtroller@hotmail.com> babbled:

> I-r-o-n .. in .. l-u-p-u-s ..

> M-O-U-S-E!

See, Rusty?  Even you laugh at you!

> Scand J Rheumatol 1976;5(4):205-8

1976?  You have to go back to 1976 to find more
material for your off-topic blather?  How far back
will you go?  "This painting from the tomb of the
Pharaoh Rootin-Tootin shows a sick person!  And
it was painted in the IRON AGE!  This proves that
iron is naughty!"

Or did Rusty already post that?

--Bill Thompson
ironjustice - 21 Mar 2007 14:49 GMT
On Mar 21, 2:47 am, "William R  Thompson" <wrtho...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
1976?  <<

Actually dckhd .. lupus goes alot further back than that .. and if you
think a medical study ABOUT lupus .. FROM .. the wall of Pharoahs ..
tomb .. IS .. not .. on .. topic .. then you .. as I said .. are ..
stupid ..

And as pointed out before / previously .. a wee bit ago .. you
continuously .. evidence this .. stupidity ..

And as the study clearly .. shows .. phlebotomy is .. PREFERRED .. the
PREFERRED .. treatment .. BEFORE .. B-E-F-O-R-E ..
hydroxychloroquine .. before .. hydroxychloroquine .. NOT .. the other
way .. around ..

And the FACT .. 'they' .. have NOT .. and are not USING the preferred
method .. bloodletting .. BUT .. ARE .. selling you the second
method .. means .. ?

Again .. you evidence your stupidity AND your extreme abundance of
cash .. and PREFERENCE for .. pain and disfigurement .. IE: adverse
effects to hydroxychloroquine ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
William R  Thompson - 22 Mar 2007 04:43 GMT
Rusty of TeamTroller <teamtanner@hotmail.com> went ballistic with::

> Actually dckhd ..

Actually, Rusty, Jesus isn't fooled by your cutesy-poo mispelling.
He knows what's in your heart and it makes him gag on his steak dinner.

> and if you
> think a medical study ABOUT lupus .. FROM .. the wall of Pharoahs ..
> tomb .. IS .. not .. on .. topic .. then you .. as I said .. are ..
> stupid ..

Stupid?  Here's what I wrote, trollboy:

"This painting from the tomb of the
Pharaoh Rootin-Tootin shows a sick person!  And
it was painted in the IRON AGE!  This proves that
iron is naughty!"

Now, Rusty, where do any of Rootin-Tootin's tomb paintings describe lupus?

> Again .. you evidence your stupidity AND your extreme abundance of
> cash .. and PREFERENCE for .. pain and disfigurement .. IE: adverse
> effects to hydroxychloroquine ..

Take off your foil cap, Rusty.  Your brain needs some fresh air.

--Bill Thompson
William Morris - 22 Mar 2007 05:57 GMT
On 3/21/07 10:43 PM, in article
UXmMh.12382$PL.1930@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net, "William R  Thompson"
<wrthomps@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> Take off your foil cap, Rusty.  Your brain needs some fresh air.
>
> --Bill Thompson

LOL!  I need to remember that one!
Good job!

William F. Morris RN, BSN
Signature


"The quality and quantity of nursing care delivered is influenced by the
nurse's perception of the patient."
                                   Joyce Travelbee

ironjustice@aol.com - 23 Mar 2007 01:01 GMT
>>On Mar 21, 9:57 pm, William Morris <wmor...@neb.rr.com> wrote:

LOL!  I need to remember that one!
Good job!

William F. Morris RN, BSN
<<

You find this thread .. funny .. do ya ..

You and the other nutbar ON this thread .. eh ..

How does that .. feel .. to associate yourself and laugh at the jokes
OF .. a .. nutbar .. ?

Describe .. it ..

And while your at it .. describe .. why .. you let these ladies die
horrible deaths .. using horrible disfiguring murderous drugs ..
dispensing them with .. **commission** .. when .. iron reduction
therapy / bloodletting IS .. the PREFERRED standard of care in
diseases .. CLOSELY resembling .. lupus .. ?

Why IYHO .. is bloodletting / low iron diet .. NOT .. being ..
recommended and USED .. when the SECOND IN LINE .. treatment /
hydroxychloroquine .. works so .. well ..

Bloodletting has never been tested .. but .. the drugs /
chloroquinine .. IS .. currently working very .. well ..

DO .. the doctors get a .. commission .. from the drug ..
chloroquine .. ?

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
William R  Thompson - 23 Mar 2007 03:24 GMT
Rusty the Cabbagehead Kid <ironjustice@aol.com> whined:

>> LOL!  I need to remember that one!
>> Good job!

> You find this thread .. funny .. do ya ..

> You and the nutbar ON this thread .. eh ..

I'm glad you enjoy it, too, Rusty.

> How does that .. feel .. to associate yourself and laugh at the jokes
> OF .. a .. nutbar .. ?

Everyone laughs at you, Rusty.  And at the way you insert those
double dots in your nonsense.  What do they represent, Rusty?
My bet is that they're full-scale pictures of your brain lobes.

> Describe .. it ..

Rusty, why don't you describe what you know about the
association between lupus and the tomb paintings of the
Pharaoh Rootin-Tootin?

--Bill Thompson
William R  Thompson - 23 Mar 2007 08:50 GMT
Rusty the Klown <ironjustice@aol.com> made this confession:

> Bloodletting has never been tested .. but .. the drugs /
> chloroquinine .. IS .. currently working very .. well ..

So why are you pushing bloodletting over chloroquine, Rusty?
Why do you have a perverted urge to bleed people to death
when there's a sound medical alternative?  Have you always
been a sadist or does your urge to cause pain result from your
decaying mental health?

--Bill Thompson
ironjustice@aol.com - 23 Mar 2007 10:54 GMT
>>  when there's a sound medical alternative? <<

Real .. sound ..

For .. sure ..

Adverse Effects
Frequent: Pruritis, nausea, headache ,Diarrhea, rash ,GI upset,
vaginal candidiasis, photo-sensitivity ,dizziness, nausea,  insomnia,
strange dreams ,nausea, vomiting, cramps, cinchonism ,cinchonism
(tinnitis, nausea, headache, blurred vision) hypoglycemia with IV ,

Occasional: Skin eruptions, reversible, corneal opacity, partial
alopecia ,Pseudomembranous colitis ,azotemia in renal diseases ,cough,
pruritis, rash ,anorexia, nausea, diarrhea, mouth ulcers ,GI upset
hemolysis in G6PD deficiency methemoglobinemia ,headache, nausea,
vomiting, folate deficiency, widening of QRS complex, cardiac
disturbance, fever, delirium, rashes,Cardiac conduction disturbances,
hypersensitivity

Rare: nail & mucous membrane discoloration, nerve deafness,
photophobia,
myopathy, retinopathy with daily use, blood dyscrasias, psychosis and
seizures ,Hepatotoxicity, blood dyscrasias,allergic reactions, blood
dyscrasias ,prolonged QT, ventricular arrhythimia ,hematuria ,Stevens-
Johnson syndrome, erythema multiforme, toxic epidermal
necrolysis ,acute hemolytic anemia
------------------------------------------------------------------------

As opposed to .. ten to one reduction .. in PAIN and SUFFERING ..
screaming for morphine.

<<snip>>
striking decrease of the number of hospitalization days
<<snip>>

with NO .. none .. nadda .. adverse effects .. by iron reduction
therapy.

But they make no .. money ..

"The iron deficiency induced by phlebotomies has no evident
deleterious
consequence either on height and weight in the children or on
intellectual performance in any patients. "

But they prefer to use .. hydroxyurea .. urine ..

Oral liquid hydroxyurea promising for long-term use in babies with
sickle cell anemia
17 Jun 2005

Treating babies who have sickle cell anemia (SCA) with oral liquid
hydroxyurea appears to prevent the onset of long-term complications
triggered by this disease, according to results of a preliminary
study
by investigators at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital.

The study's findings are important because the onset of damage caused
by SCA complications can occur as early as three months after birth.
Starting treatment before those complications begin could
dramatically
reduce the chance of organ damage and premature death. A report on
the
study appears in the June 14 online edition of Blood.

In SCA, a genetic mutation causes oxygen-carrying protein hemoglobin
(Hb) to form rigid cords in red blood cells, causing the cells to
take
on a bent, sickled shape. The sickled cells clog small blood vessels,
causing pain and serious damage to the brain, kidneys, spleen and
other
organs; and the subsequent premature death of the abnormal red cells
causes anemia. In the United States, SCA is found mostly among
African
Americans.

Hydroxyurea increases the production of fetal hemoglobin (HbF), the
main oxygen transport protein in fetal red blood cells. Because HbF
prevents red blood cells from "sickling," clinicians have used
hydroxyurea for about a decade to reactivate HbF production in adults
and older children with SCA. In addition, hydroxyurea reduces the
severity of symptoms suffered by adolescents and adults with SCA,
such
as lung infections, organ damage, stunted growth, impaired brain
development and acute chest syndrome (ACS). ACS refers to an
infection
in the lungs that causes difficulty breathing, pain and other
symptoms
and can be fatal.

The current St. Jude study was an extension of a previous clinical
trial, Hydroxyurea Safety and Organ Toxicity (HUSOFT), which was the
first in which young babies were treated with hydroxyurea. The
original
HUSOFT study, published in 2001, demonstrated that short-term oral
liquid hydroxyurea therapy can be safe and effective in babies with
SCA. In the extension study, these infants were followed for up to
six
years of therapy.

"Our results are promising and justify a larger multicenter clinical
trial to confirm that treating babies with hydroxyurea is safe and
effective," said Jane S. Hankins, M.D., a physician at the St. Jude
Comprehensive Sickle Cell Center and the study's lead author. "If a
larger trial supports our observations in the HUSOFT Extension, the
treatment of sickle cell anemia will undergo a significant change."

"This study is particularly encouraging because it suggests that we
can treat babies with hydroxyurea for several years without side
effects serious enough to limit the use of this drug," said Winfred
Wang, M.D., St. Jude Comprehensive Sickle Cell Center director. "Our
aim is to make sickle cell anemia a survivable disease that doesn't
significantly reduce a person's quality of life." Wang is the senior
author of the paper in Blood.

A two-year pilot study of 21 babies with SCA, the original HUSOFT was
designed to examine the feasibility of treating infants with liquid
hydroxyurea; to determine the toxicity of this drug in babies; to
assess hydroxyurea's effects on fetal Hb levels; and to observe if
this
treatment could preserve spleen function. Patients received 20
milligrams/kilgrams of body weight/day (mg/kg/day) of hydroxyurea.
All
21 patients who completed the initial study were enrolled by their
parents into the HUSOFT Extension study. In that study, the dose of
hydroxyurea was elevated from 20 to 30 mg/kg/day for an average of
4.0
years (range 2.1 - 6.0 years).

The aim of the HUSOFT Extension was to determine if this higher dose,
given for an extended period of time, provided significant long-term
benefits without causing unacceptable side effects in children
ranging
in age from 2.6 to 4.4 years (median age 3.4 years).

After four years of hydroxyurea therapy, the concentrations of Hb,
HbF
and the volume of red blood cells were significantly increased in the
children receiving hydroxyurea. Moreover, the HbF level often
exceeded
20 percent of the total amount of Hb, Hankins said. "In children who
weren't treated with hydroxyurea, the level of HbF declined
significantly," she added. "The fact that HbF levels rose in babies
treated with hydroxyurea suggests that the drug is effective in
babies,
as well as in adolescents and adults."

Babies receiving hydroxyurea also weighed more and were taller than
those untreated children 2 to 5 years old who had been observed in a
previous, long-term national study called the Cooperative Study for
Sickle Cell Disease. The average weight gain for babies in the St.
Jude
study was more than 4.5 pounds per year; and the gain in height was
more than 3 inches, the researchers report.

"Hydroxyurea could also prove to be an effective way to improve the
care of sickle cell anemia patients who live in underprivileged areas
of the world," said Russell E. Ware, M.D., Ph.D., director of the
Hematology division of the Department of Hematology-Oncology at St.
Jude. "Treatment with hydroxyurea requires periodic checkups, but the
medication is relatively inexpensive and should be adaptable to
countries with limited resources," he said. Ware is a co-author of
the paper.

Other authors of the article include Zora Rogers (University of
Texas,
Dallas); Lynn W. Wynn, MSN, PNP, CCRP (St. Jude); Peter A. Lane
(Emory
University, Atlanta, GA); and J. Paul Scott (Medical College of
Wisconsin, Milwaukee).

This work was supported in part by a General Clinical Research Center
grant and ALSAC.

St. Jude Children's Research Hospital

St. Jude Children's Research Hospital is internationally recognized
for
its pioneering work in finding cures and saving children with cancer
and other catastrophic diseases. Founded by late entertainer Danny
Thomas and based in Memphis, Tenn., St. Jude freely shares its
discoveries with scientific and medical communities around the world.
No family ever pays for treatments not covered by insurance, and
families without insurance are never asked to pay. St. Jude is
financially supported by ALSAC, its fund-raising organization. For
more
information, please visit http://www.stjude.org.

Contact: Carrie Strehlau
carrie.streh...@stjude.org
901-495-2295
Marc Kusinitz, Ph.D.
marc.kusin...@stjude.org
901-495-5020

St. Jude Children's Research Hospital
http://www.stjude.org

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----

Arch Pediatr
2000 Mar;7(3):249-55
[Prevention of sickle cell crises with multiple phlebotomies].
[Article in French]
Bouchair N, Manigne P, Kanfer A, Raphalen P, de Montalembert M,
Hagege
I, Verschuur A, Maier-Redelsperger M, Girot R
Service de pediatrie, CHU,
Constantine, Algerie.

OBJECTIVES:
Sickle cell disease patients suffering from frequent painful crises
were submitted to phlebotomies in order to reduce hospitalization
days
due to pain, through hemoglobin (Hb) level reduction and iron
deficiency in patients with an hemoglobin level equal to or above 9.5
g/dL.

PATIENTS:
Seven sickle cell disease patients (four SC, three SS), aged four to
24
years, were submitted to sequential phlebotomies during periods from
18
months to four years.

METHODS:
The number of hospitalization days for crises was considered.
The volumes and frequencies of phlebotomies were adjusted according
to
the patients ages, the hemoglobin concentrations and the serum
ferritin
levels.

RESULTS:
One hundred and forty-four hospitalization days were recorded in the
seven patients in the year preceding the treatment.
During the study period, the annual numbers of hospitalization days
were respectively 20, five, six and one.
Mean hemoglobin concentration was 10.7 g/dL before phlebotomies and
8.8
to 9.2 g/dL during the four years of treatment.
Mean corpuscular volume, mean corpuscular hemoglobin concentration
and
serum ferritin were also reduced.
The volume of phlebotomies was 116 to 39 mL/kg/year according to the
patients.
COMMENTS AND CONCLUSION:
The striking decrease of the number of hospitalization days for all
the
patients suggests a closed relationship between therapy and clinical
improvement.
The mechanism of this effect is probably multifactorial:
a) the concentration of Hb level is known to influence the blood
viscosity and its decrease always improved rheology in sickle cell
disease patients;
b) the mean corpuscular hemoglobin concentration is a critical factor
concerning the HbS molecule polymerization in sickle cell disease,
and
its slight reduction may have an important biological effect.
We observed these two biological modifications in our patients and
suggest that they mediate the clinical effects.
The iron deficiency induced by phlebotomies has no evident
deleterious
consequence either on height and weight in the children or on
intellectual performance in any patients.

Publication Types: * Clinical trial
PMID: 10761600, UI: 20224666

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
William R  Thompson - 23 Mar 2007 13:35 GMT
Rusty the Cabbagehead Kid <ironjustice@aol.com>
came up with yet another snippable display of verbal diarrhea:

>>  when there's a sound medical alternative? <<

>Real .. sound ..

>For .. sure ..

So you're saying that bloodletting is safe and chloroquine isn't,
Rusty?  This runs counter to your earlier words:

> Bloodletting has never been tested .. but .. the drugs /
> chloroquinine .. IS .. currently working very .. well ..

So, Rusty, were you lying then or are you lying now?
Or are you just a loud-mouthed, ignorant egotist?  Tell the
truth, Rusty, or Jesus will send you to Satan's Rib Roast
until you're nice and crispy!

>Man Is A Herbivore!

No, but I can see why you're confused, Rusty.  You're a
herbivore, but that's because you're a mouse, not a man.

--Bill Thompson
ironjustice@aol.com - 23 Mar 2007 20:15 GMT
So you're saying that bloodletting is safe and chloroquine isn't,
Rusty?  This runs counter to your earlier words:<<

This would be that it has never been tested .. ?

I believe I posted the study of it being .. tested .. in ..
anemia .. ? .. the no evident
deleterious consequence ..?

"The iron deficiency induced by phlebotomies has no evident
deleterious
consequence either on height and weight in the children or on
intellectual performance in any patients. "

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­­-----

>> Bloodletting has never been tested .. but .. the drugs /
chloroquinine .. IS .. currently working very .. well ..

So, Rusty, were you lying then or are you lying now?
Or are you just a loud-mouthed, ignorant egotist?  Tell the
truth, Rusty, or Jesus will send you to Satan's Rib Roast
until you're nice and crispy!
<<

Read to comprehend ..

Sickle cell anemia .. anemia .. has been found to contain significant
amounts of iron .. and when treated with bloodletting it is ..
cured ..

Lupus has been found to contain significant amounts of iron .. and ..
the ONLY reason bloodletting is not used is because of .. anemia.

And the ONLY reason it is not being used in sickle cell .. or wasn't
being used and STILL isn't being used in sickle cell is because of ..
anemia ..

Even though they are .. cured .. 'they' won't use bloodletting /
venesection ..

The prefer to allow them all to .. die .. slowly ..

Arch Pediatr
2000 Mar;7(3):249-55
[Prevention of sickle cell crises with multiple phlebotomies].
[Article in French]
Bouchair N, Manigne P, Kanfer A, Raphalen P, de Montalembert M,
Hagege
I, Verschuur A, Maier-Redelsperger M, Girot R
Service de pediatrie, CHU,
Constantine, Algerie.

OBJECTIVES:
Sickle cell disease patients suffering from frequent painful crises
were submitted to phlebotomies in order to reduce hospitalization
days
due to pain, through hemoglobin (Hb) level reduction and iron
deficiency in patients with an hemoglobin level equal to or above 9.5
g/dL.

PATIENTS:
Seven sickle cell disease patients (four SC, three SS), aged four to
24
years, were submitted to sequential phlebotomies during periods from
18
months to four years.

METHODS:
The number of hospitalization days for crises was considered.
The volumes and frequencies of phlebotomies were adjusted according
to
the patients ages, the hemoglobin concentrations and the serum
ferritin
levels.

RESULTS:
One hundred and forty-four hospitalization days were recorded in the
seven patients in the year preceding the treatment.
During the study period, the annual numbers of hospitalization days
were respectively 20, five, six and one.
Mean hemoglobin concentration was 10.7 g/dL before phlebotomies and
8.8
to 9.2 g/dL during the four years of treatment.
Mean corpuscular volume, mean corpuscular hemoglobin concentration
and
serum ferritin were also reduced.
The volume of phlebotomies was 116 to 39 mL/kg/year according to the
patients.
COMMENTS AND CONCLUSION:
The striking decrease of the number of hospitalization days for all
the
patients suggests a closed relationship between therapy and clinical
improvement.
The mechanism of this effect is probably multifactorial:
a) the concentration of Hb level is known to influence the blood
viscosity and its decrease always improved rheology in sickle cell
disease patients;
b) the mean corpuscular hemoglobin concentration is a critical factor
concerning the HbS molecule polymerization in sickle cell disease,
and
its slight reduction may have an important biological effect.
We observed these two biological modifications in our patients and
suggest that they mediate the clinical effects.
The iron deficiency induced by phlebotomies has no evident
deleterious
consequence either on height and weight in the children or on
intellectual performance in any patients.

Publication Types: * Clinical trial
PMID: 10761600, UI: 20224666

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ironjustice@aol.com - 24 Mar 2007 04:21 GMT
More seriously, researchers have linked excess iron levels to systemic
lupus erythematosus (SLE)),9 and exacerbation of rheumatoid arthritis,
10
9. Oh VMS. Iron dextran and systemic lupus erythematosus. BMJ
1992;305:1000 [letter].
10. Dabbagh AJ, Trenam CW, Morris CJ, Blake DR. Iron in joint
inflammation. Ann Rheum Dis 1993;52:67?73.

http://tinyurl.com/yrorxl

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
William R  Thompson - 24 Mar 2007 09:59 GMT
Rusty the Singing Enema Nozzle <ironjustice@aol.com> went for the laughs
with:

> More seriously

It's good you admit that your earlier post shouldn't be taken seriously,
although everyone already knew that.  And, Rusty, your latest claims
are rendered nugatory by this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AELpS5_Pitw

Now would you care to explain why so many of your
posts contain 666 words?  You've been exposed again, Rusty,
and not just by your habit of leaving your fly unzipped!

--Bill Thompson
Ruth Tay - 26 Mar 2007 02:44 GMT
In article <jM5Nh.130731$_73.6158@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne

> Rusty the Singing Enema Nozzle <ironjustice@aol.com> went for the laughs
> with:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> --Bill Thompson

Thank you Bill.  I had just lost my cool and responded to' the
singing enema nozzle '  with a  lot of anger.  When  reading
your reply   it gave me a good laugh.  I rely on  this group
to give me insight on how other lupus treatment works for
them . I  resent people with no knowledge  interrupting our
news group.  

By the way Jesus was not a vegetarian. There is a passage
in the Bible that tells how Jesus cooked fish and shared
it with the disciples.

ruth
William R  Thompson - 26 Mar 2007 04:20 GMT
('bout the Cabbagehead Kid)

> Thank you Bill.  I had just lost my cool and responded to' the
> singing enema nozzle '  with a  lot of anger.  When reading
> your reply it gave me a good laugh.  I rely on this group
> to give me insight on how other lupus treatments work for
> them. I resent people with no knowledge interrupting our
> news group.

Especially when something like Rusty is willing to sacrifice
people's health for his egomania.  I shudder at the thought
of someone taking his "advice."

> By the way Jesus was not a vegetarian. There is a passage
> in the Bible that tells how Jesus cooked fish and shared
> it with the disciples.

Jesus was a top-notch rabbi, too, so he could have explained
why there's nothing wrong with eating meat--not that Rusty
would have listened to him.

--Bill Thompson
William R  Thompson - 24 Mar 2007 05:08 GMT
Rusty the Crossposting Crossdresser <ironjustice@aol.com> whined:

>> So you're saying that bloodletting is safe and chloroquine isn't,
Rusty?  This runs counter to your earlier words:

> This would be that it has never been tested .. ?

This would be the random words you posted.  I am going
to be cruel, vicious and brutal here, Rusty, and suggest you
read your own words.

>Read to comprehend ..

>Sickle cell anemia ..

Is not lupus.  Know what would help your reading comprehension
skills, Rusty?  You should learn a second language.  I suggest
English.  Maybe you could take a break from your studies of the
tomb paintings of the Pharaoh Rootin-Tootin to study that
language, although we all know that drawing pictures on the
wall is more suited to your mentality.

--Bill Thompson
ironjustice@aol.com - 24 Mar 2007 22:24 GMT
>>On Mar 23, 9:08 pm, "William R  Thompson" <wrtho...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: Is not lupus.  <<

http://www.inner.org/healing/healing43.htm

Recent developments in the medical world for the treatment of Lupus
have seemingly taken us back to our distant past. Plasmapheresis,
which is a variation on one of the oldest medical practices, has
reemerged as a viable option for dealing with Lupus. Resembling the
ancient process of bloodletting, this technique involves getting rid
of the bad blood in the body.

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
William R  Thompson - 25 Mar 2007 03:51 GMT
Rusty the Cabbagehead Kid <ironjustice@aol.com> got incoherent with:

> Recent developments in the medical world for the treatment of Lupus
> have seemingly taken us back to our distant past. Plasmapheresis,
> which is a variation on one of the oldest medical practices, has
> reemerged as a viable option for dealing with Lupus. Resembling the
> ancient process of bloodletting, this technique involves getting rid
> of the bad blood in the body.

Plasmapheresis is not bloodletting, Rusty, no matter what your
expert on the Kabalah says.  You should know this if from your
studies of the tomb paintings of the Pharaoh Rootin-Tootin.
When are you going to tell us what you learned from them?

In other words, Rusty, why do you insist on fighting with both
brain cells tied behind your back?

--Bill Thompson
ironjustice@aol.com - 25 Mar 2007 06:41 GMT
Plasmapheresis is not bloodletting, <<

Seems it is good .. YOU are not the ONLY one who has the .. say .. as
to whether bloodletting and plasmapheresis are .. different ..

Seems those people .. without .. lupus .. believe it IS the .. same ..

But then again people with lupus have a problem with .. sanity .. so
it would explain your inability to .. comprehend ..

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9D06E2DD1F39F934A15757
C0A964948260


BLOODLETTING IS REVIVED FOR A WIDE VARIETY OF MODERN ILLS

By LAWRENCE K. ALTMAN
Published: April 27, 1982
IN a return to the Hippocratic practice of bloodletting, once believed
to purge the body of bad humors and to restore the vigor of life,
doctors in many countries now are bleeding patients to treat a myriad
of disorders. The widely varying results have led to many medical
controversies about the practice, which is costly and timeconsuming,
yet has saved lives. Some estimates foresee hundreds of thousands of
these procedures being done annually by mid-decade at a cost of
billions of dollars.

In the ancient practice of bloodletting, all purged blood was
discarded. In the modern versions, the technique is named according to
the portions that are selectively removed. For example, in therapeutic
plasm@ap@heresis (also called plasma exchange or apheresis) the fluid
plasma portion of the blood is discarded. Dramatic improvement has
been reported among patients affected by the 50 or so disorders in
which it has been tried over recent years, disorders as disparate as
rheumatoid arthritis and mushroom poisoning.

-------------------------------------------------------

Med J Aust. 1979 Aug 25;2(4):167-73. Links
Plasma exchange: a selective form of blood-letting.
Isbister JP.
The technique of, and indications for, plasma exchange are presented.
This selective form of plasma removal has re-established "blood-
letting" in medical therapeutics on a scientific basis.
It is the most appropriate therapy when hyperviscosity or haemostatic
failure complicate immunoproliferative disease.
Plasma exchange is also a significant advance in the management of
fulminant forms of autoimmune disease, but in many other conditions it
must be regarded as experimental.

PMID: 160005 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
William R  Thompson - 25 Mar 2007 08:26 GMT
Rusty, the Wizard of Odd, <ironjustice@aol.com> trolled:

>> Plasmapheresis is not bloodletting,

> Seems it is good .. YOU are not the ONLY one who has the .. say .. as
> to whether bloodletting and plasmapheresis are .. different ..

Bloodletting, Rusty, is letting out whole blood.

Plasmapheresis is the removal of plasma, returning all
other blood components to the body.  Including,
guess what, the hemoglobin in the red blood cells.

Two different things, Rusty.  Can you count up to two?

> Seems those people .. without .. lupus .. believe it IS the .. same ..

So not having lupus makes you believe nonsense?
I always thought you believed nonsense because you're stupid.
I wasn't aware that you blamed your idiocy on good health.
Are you hanging out here because you hope to catch lupus?

> But then again people with lupus have a problem with .. sanity

Let's put that to the test, Rusty.  See how everyone here reacts
when you finally display some sanity.  C'mon, Rusty, take off your
foil hat and let it all hang out!

--Bill Thompson
ironjustice@aol.com - 25 Mar 2007 18:17 GMT
>>On Mar 23, 12:15 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote:
..
The prefer to allow them all to .. die .. slowly ..
<<

This drug is .. **specifically**  .. used to lower red blood cell
count .. http://tinyurl.com/3ddkzy .. erythrocytosis .. which can be
treated by .. lowering of red blood cell count .. and this has and
always has been treated by blood donation / venesection / phlebotomy /
bloodletting .. but it seems in this girl .. they didn't .. bother ..

Titre du document / Document title
Sickle cell anemia with systemic lupus erythematosus : Response to
hydroxyurea therapy
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
SHETTY A. K. (1) ; RAJEEV KUMAR S. (2) ; GEDALIA A. (3) ; WARRIER R.
P. (2) ;
Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s)
(1) Clinical Pediatrics, Department of Pediatrics, Louisiana State
University Medical Center and Children's Hospital of New Orleans, New
Orleans, Louisiana, ETATS-UNIS
(2) Pediatric Hematology/Oncology, Department of Pediatrics, Louisiana
State University Medical Center and Children's Hospital of New
Orleans, New Orleans, Louisiana, ETATS-UNIS
(3) Pediatric Rheumatology, Department of Pediatrics, Louisiana State
University Medical Center and Children's Hospital of New Orleans, New
Orleans, Louisiana, ETATS-UNIS

Résumé / Abstract
Purpose: To report the efficacy of hydroxyurea (HU) in a patient with
sickle cell anemia (SCA) associated with systemic ]upus erythematosus
(SLE). Patients and Methods: An unusual association of SCA with SLE
occurred in a 14-year-old black girl. Her medical history was
significant for repeated vasoocclusive crises requiring repeated
hospitalizations and transfusions, acute chest syndrome,
hyperhemolytic crises, multiple transfusions resulting in iron
overload, gall stones, avascular necrosis, and significant
psychosocial problems. Her lupus activity was controlled with oral
prednisone and hydroxychloroquine. Treatment with oral HU was
instituted at an initial dose of 20 mg/kg with gradual increment to a
maximum of 25 mg/kg daily. Results: A dramatic clinical improvement
was noted with HU therapy with no episode of pain crisis or
hospitalization for 5 months. There was an increase in fetal
hemoglobin (HbF) to 20.9% and mean corpuscular volume to 114.5 fl, but
her Hb level remained steady at 7.5 g/dl. No toxicity was noted with
HU therapy. In addition, a significant change was also observed in her
school performance, social activities, and general quality of life.
Conclusions: HU therapy may be beneficial and safe and should be
considered for other patients who have SCA with SLE.
Revue / Journal Title
Journal of pediatric hematology/oncology  (J. pediatr. hematol./
oncol.)  ISSN 1077-4114   CODEN JPHOFG
Source / Source
1998, vol. 20, no4, pp. 335-337 (14 ref.)
Langue / Language
Anglais

Editeur / Publisher
Lippincott, Hagerstown, MD, ETATS-UNIS (1995) (Revue)

Mots-clés anglais / English Keywords
Sickle cell anemia ; Lupus erythematosus ; Disseminated ; Concomitant
disease ; Hydroxycarbamide ; Treatment ; Case study ; Treatment
efficiency ; Child ; Female ; Human ; Hemopathy ; Hemolytic anemia ;
Hemoglobinopathy ; Genetic disease ; Skin disease ; Connective tissue
disease ; Systemic disease ; Autoimmune disease ; Immunopathology ;
Mots-clés français / French Keywords
Anémie hématie falciforme ; Lupus érythémateux ; Disséminé ;
Association morbide ; Hydroxycarbamide ; Traitement ; Etude cas ;
Efficacité traitement ; Enfant ; Femelle ; Homme ; Hémopathie ; Anémie
hémolytique ; Hémoglobinopathie ; Maladie héréditaire ; Peau
pathologie ; Tissu conjonctif pathologie ; Maladie système ; Maladie
autoimmune ; Immunopathologie ;

002b02g ;
Mots-clés espagnols / Spanish Keywords
Anemia glóbulo falciforme ; Lupus eritematoso ; Diseminado ;
Asociación morbosa ; Hidroxicarbamida ; Tratamiento ; Estudio caso ;
Eficacia tratamiento ; Niño ; Hembra ; Hombre ; Hemopatía ; Anemia
hemolítica ; Hemoglobinopatía ; Enfermedad hereditaria ; Piel
patología ; Tejido conjuntivo patología ; Enfermedad sistémica ;
Enfermedad autoinmune ; Inmunopatología ;
Localisation / Location
INIST-CNRS, Cote INIST : 18320, 35400007286553.0090

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

> Arch Pediatr
> 2000 Mar;7(3):249-55
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>
> DEAD PEOPLE WALKINGhttp://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
William R  Thompson - 26 Mar 2007 03:06 GMT
Rusty the Cabbagehead Kid <ironjustice@aol.com> flamed himself with:

>>On Mar 23, 12:15 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote:
..
The prefer to allow them all to .. die .. slowly ..
<<

Rusty, how long has your brain been collecting unemployment insurance?

--Bill Thompson
Retired Chief - 22 Mar 2007 19:24 GMT
On Mar 20, 6:43 am, numbnuts tom wrote::

> That is because you are .. stupid ..

You're looking in a mirror again when you say things like that.

> Man Is A Herbivore!http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

Created with incisor and canine teeth to cut into, rip apart, and
chew MEAT.

... numbnuts runs DUMB ver 2.0, an upgrade from STUPID ver 0.5beta
gazorpf@yahoo.com - 24 Mar 2007 15:12 GMT
OMG does this freak ever stop? Hmmm lupus strikes women 9 times more
often than men and usually between the ages of 14 and 45 when our
bodies are "blood letting" every 28 days or so. Many lupus patients
have abnormalities of the blood cells and platelets and they have
anemia. Wow, let's take more blood. Makes perfect sense NOT. Get the
leeches ready gals! I can think of a good place to put them, and it's
not on lupus patients!

Let's calculate the cost I would be as a burden on society if I did
not take my Plaquenil and Cellcept and could not work and pay taxes
into the system. Although it is quite clear that rusty is the "child
that was left behind" in the educational arena. Or maybe we should
just calculate the cost of my funeral after my kidneys fail when I go
off the Cellcept.

And as for side effects, well how about the side effects of air and
water pollution, tainted food, pesticides, formaldehyde coming out of
our upholstery...need I go on?

> Anyone care to venture a guess why phlebotomy / bloodletting isn't
> used in lupus or arthritis when a drug that is an "alternative to
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> DEAD PEOPLE WALKINGhttp://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
ironjustice@aol.com - 24 Mar 2007 18:01 GMT
>> Mar 24, 7:12 am, "gazo...@yahoo.com" <gazo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
. Many lupus patients
have abnormalities of the blood cells and platelets and they have
anemia. Wow, let's take more blood. Makes perfect sense NOT.<<

I posted the study of .. sickle cell anemia ..

Didn't .. I .. ?

'They' / doctors the same .. party line .. as you ..

The sickle cell patients are .. "mygawd .. anemic ..!!"

And when bloodlet they are .. cured .. c-u-r-e-d ..

Top .. it ..

>>calculate the cost I would be as a burden on society if I did
not take my Plaquenil and Cellcept and could not work and pay taxes
into the system. <<

That would be as .. opposed to .. being .. cured ..

Cured ..

There is no .. 'cost' to .. nobody .. when you are cured ..

You can carry about your life doing whatever .. useless trash people
like YOU .. do ..

>>ough it is quite clear that rusty is the "child
that was left behind" in the educational arena. <<

"More success in the medical field than anyone in history" ..

Let's see YOUR .. child .. say that ..

If I'm "left behind" .. yours and everyones'must be .. kinda ..
morons ..

>>aybe we should
just calculate the cost of my funeral after my kidneys fail when I go
off the Cellcept.<<

Maybe we should just .. shovel the dirt over ya .. just like they do
everywhere else they have no money for the drugs .. eh ..

Where they just .. scream and die .. and then since there is no
money .. they don't have to .. worry ABOUT .. "funeral expenses" ..

>>nd as for side effects, well how about the side effects of air and
water pollution, tainted food, pesticides, formaldehyde coming out of
our upholstery...need I go on?<<

So now your argument is .. "air and water and milk and my old man are
killing me so what's the big .. deal .. " ..

Pain and longterm suffering are involved .. THAT is the big deal ..

Which .. evidently .. can be .. cured .. c-u-r-e-d .. JUST .. like
sickle cell patients are .. cured ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3

DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
William R  Thompson - 25 Mar 2007 03:43 GMT
Rusty the Klown <ironjustice@aol.com> babbled:

> I posted the study of .. sickle cell anemia ..

> Didn't .. I .. ?

You mean you've already forgotten?  Maybe you should stop
snipping what other people say, Rusty.

> 'They' / doctors the same .. party line .. as you ..

> The sickle cell patients are .. "mygawd .. anemic ..!!"

> And when bloodlet they are .. cured .. c-u-r-e-d ..

Er, Rusty, their symptoms go away because people die when
you bleed them to death.  But congratulations on spelling
"cured" correctly.

> Top .. it ..

Leave your sex life out of this, Rusty.  And watch what you say in
this thread!  Don't you realize who you just mouthed off to?
That's right, it was Gozer the Gozerian!  Can't you remember even
the most basic lesson of "Ghostbusters"?  Annoy not the Traveller,
Rusty, lest she turn thee into a giant hairless Chihuahua!

--Bill Thompson
William R  Thompson - 25 Mar 2007 03:54 GMT
gazorpf  wrote:

>OMG does this freak ever stop?

Rusty can't stop.  He believes he's some sort of messiah.
He thinks that if he babbles enough, he'll con people into
following him, no matter how foolish he is.  I guess he
can't tell the difference between people and lemmings.
(Maybe it's because neither are dumb enough to follow him.)

--Bill Thompson
 
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