Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Lupus / September 2004
steroid shots making dog feel worse?
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KCat - 21 Sep 2004 22:54 GMT I noticed this last time she had a steroid shot (last year) but thought it had to do with her disk disease and not the shot.
She's hiding in her crate and moving veeery slowly. The trip wasn't that traumatic and she was quite chipper this a.m. so I don't think it's the ear either.
I called her into the bedroom and she wouldn't come in - which she stopped doing when her neck was giving her so much pain for various reasons not the least of which was mommy stepping on her back then.
anyway - it's like she's in pain and is certain that if she comes too close to me she'll be in more pain. :(
has anyone heard steroids (I'm guessing Ketalog) can cause an initial ick feeling like this or make the joints actually hurt more?
the vet is closed already - i can ask in the a.m. but thought I'd pose the question here.
janers - 21 Sep 2004 23:06 GMT Hey KCat was the shot given in the hind part of the body or up closer to the middle part.
Some animals do have more pain after a shot, of any kind. I know my doggie does and she would cower like how you explained and then kinda whimper. SHe also looked so sad like "what the "H" did you do to me.
It just might be the shot but not just because of cortisone but just a shot. Has it happened other than cortisone?
I missed your original post, it did not come through my server, so I am not sure what type animal you are talking about or when shot was given. Seems I got on the TAIL end of this conversation....heehehee.
GIve the shot a chance to work if the muscle is so sore when she walks that might be what is the matter. Just watch her and don't pick her up.....or to do so, very CAREFULLY
tender spots for sure janers
Andy - 22 Sep 2004 09:49 GMT [
>I am not >sure what type animal you are talking about Dalmatian dog.
 Signature Andy Taylor [Chair, N E Lupus Group] See http://www.northeastlupus.org.uk for more!
KCat - 22 Sep 2004 16:01 GMT Sorry, Janers. I was referring to Bayta still. I connected the two threads mentally but not electronically. :P
> Hey KCat was the shot given in the hind part of the body or up closer to > the middle part. in her back - just at the end of her rib cage basically. She didn't react to it at the time, she's gotten really good about getting shots.
> Some animals do have more pain after a shot, of any kind. I know my doggie > does and she would cower like how you explained and then kinda whimper. > SHe also looked so sad like "what the "H" did you do to me. this had her just really moving slow. Then she started panting heavily later in the evening and was just staring at me as if in a daze. Steroids are great, aren't they? :P
> It just might be the shot but not just because of cortisone but just a > shot. Has it happened other than cortisone? no. not that I've ever noticed. I used to give her weekly anti-body shots and they never caused any problems for her. of course, she is older now.
> GIve the shot a chance to work if the muscle is so sore when she walks that > might be what is the matter. Just watch her and don't pick her up.....or > to do so, very CAREFULLY heh... there's no picking up Bay. She's like a cat. you pick her up and her legs go straight out on all sides. But she's at the vet now - getting her ear worked on.
They think these hematomas in the ear flaps are a sort of autoimmune response. The immune system goes into overdrive and the vessels in the earflap get inflammed then rupture. Blood fills the flap in a big cyst. It's not lymph. So I guess the steroid is to reduce the immune response and not to reduce inflammation or pain.
I'm worried about her - but at least during the healing process she'll be at the vets for a good bit. I just hate that she has to go on the table because that hurts her neck. :(
thanks for the input, kcat
J - 22 Sep 2004 00:04 GMT > has anyone heard steroids (I'm guessing Ketalog) can cause an initial ick > feeling like this or make the joints actually hurt more? When I get my shoulder steroid shots, I get tremendous pain for (usually) two days, unless they add lidocaine.. J
Nicole H - 22 Sep 2004 03:48 GMT Kcat Call your local emergency clinic and ask. No charge for that. My dog used to have Vetalog shots all the time.... since she wasn't feeling well anyways... the shot wasn't an instant cure for her. Took a few days. You could give her an aspirin depending on weight and that would really help her joints. Also, for long term, omega 3 fatty acids, vit c, vit e are all good.... the 3s are the best for reducing inflammation. I gave glucosamine/choindrotin (sp) Try moist heat on her. My labrador used to love that. She had disc degeneration also and that's what finally led to her being euthanized... but she lived with it for quite a while. www.vetinfo.com is an awesome site to read about types of questions. HTH
Nicole "
Forger - 22 Sep 2004 04:28 GMT >has anyone heard steroids (I'm guessing Ketalog) can cause an initial ick >feeling like this or make the joints actually hurt more? I'm no dog (so says me) but I get kenalog shots for allergies. (looks like the same as ketalog -Triamcinolone) It changes my mood for about a week. Best thing that comes to mind is I just would rather be left alone at that time.
ps I just found this group a few days ago. My GF has CNS Lupus. ANyone else here familiar with that?
Beverley - 22 Sep 2004 04:34 GMT Welcome! Oh we have a few people who are all too familiar with CNS lupus. I think we have a little of just about every kind of lupus there is out here. Do you have any autoimmune problems? It tends to run in families. Bev
> >has anyone heard steroids (I'm guessing Ketalog) can cause an initial ick > >feeling like this or make the joints actually hurt more? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ps I just found this group a few days ago. My GF has CNS Lupus. ANyone > else here familiar with that? Forger - 22 Sep 2004 05:09 GMT >Welcome! Oh we have a few people who are all too familiar with CNS lupus. I >think we have a little of just about every kind of lupus there is out here. >Do you have any autoimmune problems? It tends to run in families. >Bev Well thanks for the welcome and no I dont have any autoimmune problems myself. I shouldnt just assume my abreviations are so well known, GF is my girlfriend. We live very remotely in northern arizona and are finding it impossible to find a doctor for her since we moved here. Her medical problems are just going unresolved and the strain on "us" is mounting rapidly. Seems every other month I become her hated enemy, and thats where I am now. We didnt even realize this was a symptom of CNS lupus until about a year ago, but knowing it doesnt help when she has this kind of flare. SHe just found out her degeneritive disc disease is now affecting her neck, and her cerebellum I think it is, is shrinking because of meds. As though thats not bad enough, it brought on this "mental" flare that has us now not talking. Its hard to help someone, or to just be there, if they just hate you. The last time this happened, in June/July, it lasted about 4 weeks. Anyways I could go on...and on... and on. I know the actual medical problems are probably all too familiar with some of you, but what about this relationship mood swing thing? Bob
KCat - 22 Sep 2004 15:55 GMT Bob,
> could go on...and on... and on. I know the actual medical problems are > probably all too familiar with some of you, but what about this > relationship mood swing thing? > Bob oh boy..
While I don't have CNS lupus, on a monthly basis I do have what I call "micro-flares" - during <clears throat> "that time" I can become completely irrational (yes, Andy, more so than usual!) and depressed. It has put me in some pretty dark, horrific places but it lasts a few hours or a day or so at most nowdays. I went into a deep depression before I was diagnosed and was on an anti-depressant for 1.5 years. I could list all the reasons that would explain why that depression was clinical and based on the disease but i'll spare you for now.
Unfortunately, I don't know any easy answers. What, if any, medication is she on? The best I've heard for CNS is also the most destructive - Cytoxan IV. This is a chemo drug that has to be given intravenously (hence "IV".) Given orally it causes bladder cancer. given IV it still has this potential but it is reduced and there is a med that helps protect the bladder while on this treatment. It is the only medication that I am aware of that actually crosses the blood-brain barrier and deals with the immune components there. The reason CNS lupus is so hard to treat is because of this blood-brain barrier which I'm sure you've heard of. Anti-depressants can help sometimes but not always. What is her hormone situation? It sounds like you think this is somewhat cyclic. While female hormones can exacerbate autoimmune disease, we found that being able to control them somewhat (birth control pills) keeps these mood swings and micro-flares at least to a minimum duration and more predictable. I don't know if that would be of value for her.
For you... have you sought counseling for yourself? Of course you can talk here about anything you need to talk about. Anything we can help with we will. I believe these diseases are sometimes harder on the caregiver than the patient. Especially when men, who have the genetic need to "fix" things, are confronted with something they can't fix. So you need to take care of yourself during these times as best you can while trying (as it sounds you are doing) to understand that this is the disease talking, not her. or not talking as the case may be.
Methotrexate is another drug often given for CNS patients and I have seen it help a couple of my friends. Ultimately though they ended up on Cytoxan for several weeks. Sadly, the medical care I've seen in places like Az is spartan at best. My sister is being "treated" for Lupus and MS in NM. I use the term "treated" lightly.
If she is on steroids - these drugs can add to the mood swings.
a big problem - and I know it's irrational and illogical - is that when a woman is in this mode regardless of the root cause - the last thing you can say is "oh, it's 'that time' - and it doesn't matter if you're referring to that time hormonally or that time due to the disease. We hate that we are out of control as much as you hate that it tears you both up. This becomes what my hubby calls spiraling. I feel bad for having lost it, he says something sensitive like "I know this isn't you, it's the disease." which then just pisses me off, then I snap back about that and he pouts, then I run off and cry, then I think about what a horrible person I am and I don't deserve him, then I scream at God for letting this happen, then... you get the idea. it just goes down and down until my self-hatred is so strong that I can not bring myself to even communicate with him because I'm a failure and I'm just going to screw things up further and why the hell doesn't he just let me die so he doesn't have to deal with all this and...
so.... i guess you could say I'm quite familiar with these thought patterns.
:P When i'm not in that mode, it is so tragic it's funny. When I am in them - well, very bad things look like good ideas. I'll leave it at that. The good thing is, he does stand by me and he does do all he can to understand. He also knows it's temporary and that gives him hope that "tomorrow's another day." But it is hard on him and i have lingering guilt over it.
of course, it sounds like you're dealing with much longer bouts with this and intractable communication problems. While it is an organic disease, some counseling might help. At least it might give her the ability to see more clearly what she's experiencing (outside the haze and confusion of the disease) and you some tools for coping. I wouldn't suggest this *during* one of these stages. What I would suggest is talking to a professional about it - about the best course of action for helping both of you cope.
And of course, the last requirement is that you be a perfect BF and never upset her. :P I am joking of course, though I would imagine right now you're not in the mood for such humour. Truth is, without humour it is very hard to get through these things. Even in my darkest modes I can sometimes find myself able to say really dark humour comments that are oddly comforting. But I had to grow that ability somewhat. I don't know where I learned it - perhaps it just came from within. Hubby refers to it as Kitty Humour.
i hope some of this has helped and as I said, please feel completely free to talk about this here. Not everyone here is a patient - not for autoimmune disease that is. Some of us (Andy!) should be mental patients. :-)
kcat the verbose
Forger - 24 Sep 2004 02:06 GMT >Unfortunately, I don't know any easy answers. What, if any, medication is >she on? The best I've heard for CNS is also the most destructive - Cytoxan Thanks for listening, she is on far too many drugs for me to list at the moment, including prednisone, she was on cytonxin years ago, now on something else (I think its for transplant patients). I'm not thinking too clearly though, just wanted to say I appreciate the concern. Yesterday morning I spoke to her, it blew up, I'm just too mean-abusive-concieted-you name it. I took off on my harley and spent the night in a campground about 150 miles from here. I came back this evening, she is gone, probably went to town. Anyways I dont think I can take anymore of this hatred. This is going on 5 weeks now. Some of her drugs, she was running out of. The POS(biker term) Doctor Epstien in Flagstaff was absolutly worthless. He didnt even return the call to the ER in July when she was in pretty rough shape. The ER Doc and Cathy decided on their own to just try upping her prednisone dose until midweek when she had an appointment with Epstien. At her appointment, the Dr just says ' No.... that doesnt sound like a lupus flare'. Well it was obvious to everyone else including the ER Dr that it was. Anyways, that was the second and last time Cathy saw him. So now all she has is a general practitioner, who is really not much help. She did see a neurologist in Flagstaff, he was the one who diagnosed the shrinking cerebellum and the spreading disc diesease. I'm just rambling now. I realize you folks dont know much at all about me or her and I dont expect any kind of medical help here, but it does feel good to actually talk to people who understand. Bob
KCat - 24 Sep 2004 18:06 GMT > >Unfortunately, I don't know any easy answers. What, if any, medication is > >she on? The best I've heard for CNS is also the most destructive - Cytoxan > > > evening, she is gone, probably went to town. Anyways I dont think I > can take anymore of this hatred. I'm sorry to hear that. I know it is very hard and it sounds like she's really fighting her own demons, too. Pred will certainly make this worse but of course there are other underlying factors I'm sure. Fear for her, for both of you. Perhaps to some extent she is pushing you away (consciously or otherwise) because she feels like a burden and failure. Sometimes when we're sick, it's easier to piss our loved ones off and make them leave than allow them to help. Guilt and all that.
> This is going on 5 weeks now. Some of > her drugs, she was running out of. The POS(biker term) heh.. that's okay. I think most of us can translate that one. :)
> appointment, the Dr just says ' No.... that doesnt sound like a lupus > flare'. Well it was obvious to everyone else including the ER Dr that > it was. argg! There are so many doctors who are completely clueless about lupus. What a flare "sounds like" is so very individualized as to be absurd to try to constrain it by book knowledge or guesswork. I know when I'm flaring and when i'm just tired or stressed or fighting a bug. And sometimes all of those can trigger a flare. Would you say that the increase in pred dose occurred before or after the current communication problems? Don't mean to trivialize the conflicts, just not sure how else to phrase it.
> I'm just rambling now. that's okay - you've both got a lot to deal with and that's what we're here foar. or rather, for. sheesh, poor typing skills today.
The
Forger - 25 Sep 2004 18:21 GMT >> >she on? The best I've heard for CNS is also the most destructive - >Cytoxan >> I'm just rambling now. > >that's okay - you've both got a lot to deal with and that's what we're here >foar. or rather, for. sheesh, poor typing skills today. Well good news. Everything erupted yesterday, then she came down to the "bad" feelings. Not that THATS good, but its the sign that its about over. No more hatred of me anyways. So we are talking now and know the need to find some health care for her just cant be delayed much more. Its hard to explain the feeling of knowing this group exists. I'm glad we are not alone with this, yet sad that others have these problems. Anyways KCat, like I said, she was on Cytoxin several years ago, now she is on Celcept (sp?). Along with just a mouthful assortment of other drugs. (I'm afraid my fingers would cramp if I typed em all out). But someone mentioned the blood-brain barrier or connection with CNS lupus? Ive never heard of that, I asked her this morning and she hadnt either. I'm sure my Cathy will enjoy this newsgroup and getting to know some of you. Like I said before, we live in remote northern Arizona on 40 acres, she has her" kids"- a doberman, 2 mini schnauzers, a cat, goats and her Missouri Foxtrotter (and the newest edition, my Missouri Foxtrotter).
ps I hope your Bay is all better now
Andy - 26 Sep 2004 10:37 GMT [
> But someone mentioned the blood-brain barrier or >connection with CNS lupus? Ive never heard of that, I asked her this >morning and she hadnt either. http://www.northeastlupus.org.uk/faqshets/faqs05.htm may give you some info
 Signature Andy Taylor [Chair, N E Lupus Group] See http://www.northeastlupus.org.uk for more!
BJ - 23 Sep 2004 20:15 GMT Hi Bob, My husband and I both know and understand your problem. Sometimes I think our partners can give better insight into what it is like. Unfortunately, most of them do not post or read the threads. I have had many episodes that involved my CNS. They took a long time to resolve themselves and it was a nightmare for me and my family. It took very high dosages of prednisone and months before things improved. My problems were complicated by pernicious anemia that had advanced to the point were it was also causing neurological problems. I wondered if your GF had ever been checked for it. Just a thought. Prednisone in itself can also cause wild mood swings, especially at a high dosage. I don't really know what to suggest in the way of coping with her during the difficult times. All I can say is that you must keep in mind that it is her illness talking, not her. Talk to us whenever you feel the need. We like to help if we can. BJ-Sk. Canada
> >Welcome! Oh we have a few people who are all too familiar with CNS lupus. I > >think we have a little of just about every kind of lupus there is out here. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > relationship mood swing thing? > Bob KCat - 22 Sep 2004 15:31 GMT > I'm no dog (so says me) but I get kenalog shots for allergies. (looks > like the same as ketalog -Triamcinolone) It changes my mood for about > a week. Best thing that comes to mind is I just would rather be left > alone at that time. Bay just stood around staring at me last night and panting heavily. Poor old girl. But she's with the vet this a.m. for her ear to be lanced. Bleah.
> ps I just found this group a few days ago. My GF has CNS Lupus. ANyone > else here familiar with that? I am familiar with things about it but have not experienced it myself. But have a couple of close friends who have CNS Lupus. I think most of us here have seen it or dealt with it to some extent so feel free to ask any questions or vent any emotions.
Boo - 23 Sep 2004 19:49 GMT HI Forger,
I have a lot of problems with my noggin, some are related to lupus, and some apparently are not. Which are lupus and which are not? Perhaps only the Great Creator knows... BUT---I did have intractible headaches, which were relieved when I took oral cortisone. My rheumie says I have CNS lupus because I have problems with my memory, concentration, and cognitive ability.
I have taken antidepressants of all varieties almost continuously for the past 23 years! Shrinks think I'm a tough nut to crack, but maybe they are trying to psychoanalyze an organic problem caused by lupus. Sheesh.
I do not, however, have any peripheral neuropathy. I'm a clutz and run into things, and have broken every glass object in my house, but there is no tingling or numbness in my hands or feet.
So that's the scoop with me, I hope it helps.
I would welcome posts directly from your GF... she would find lots of good support here.
Anyhow,
Boo
>>has anyone heard steroids (I'm guessing Ketalog) can cause an initial ick >>feeling like this or make the joints actually hurt more? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ps I just found this group a few days ago. My GF has CNS Lupus. ANyone > else here familiar with that?
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