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Medical Forum / General / Laboratory / July 2008

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Medical school supply for blood samples

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x01001x - 18 Jul 2008 07:44 GMT
I am curious about the nature of how human blood is obtained for the
purpose of study.
I am aware that various entities, such as blood banks and the VA, draw
blood for specific purposes with respect to their patients, donors,
and/or recipients.

The methods of these kinds of places don't really apply to my
question, because the blood is drawn for the purpose of inspection,
not for study by students.

I suppose medical schools are used to obtaining blood for study,
however are they the ONLY entities capable of obtaining it?

Any information regarding how human blood is obtained for study will
be appreciated.
John Gentile - 18 Jul 2008 16:57 GMT
> I am curious about the nature of how human blood is obtained for the
> purpose of study.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Any information regarding how human blood is obtained for study will
> be appreciated.

When I was in school we either used our own blood or we used animal
blood. But the way you asked your question doesn't make sense. Why do
you think that only blood banks and VA hospitals "study" blood???
Almost all physcians order blood work to diagnose and follow treatment
of their patients. Can you explain your question a little better? What
do you mean by "study"?
Signature

John Gentile MS, M(ASCP)
Laboratory Information Mgr.
VA Medical Center
Providence, RI
yjgent@cox.net

x01001x - 18 Jul 2008 22:07 GMT
> Why do
> you think that only blood banks and VA hospitals "study" blood???

No actually you misread my post.
What I am presenting is that blood banks and the VA draw blood for
SPECIFIC reasons.
Notice I use the word inspection, instead of study.
Blood banks are storing blood. That is the purpose, storage not study.
The VA may be studying blood, but not at a basic level for the purpose
of learning, because they already should have
been studying before that.
I assume the VA is inspecting blood for the presence or lack of
something, perhaps good or bad.

> Almost all physcians order blood work to diagnose and follow treatment
> of their patients.

You are correct, however they have already received a M.D. or
equivalent, and so they are able to
order the blood drawn, with a knowledge base of the nature of blood.
I am speaking about procuring blood for the purpose of study, before
any M.D. is received.
Also, allow me to clarify again that the purpose is to study the
blood, not to see a patient and not
for any specific treatment, as the VA may be used to.
Also, the blood is not to be donated, as a blood bank is used to.

>Can you explain your question a little better?

This is my second attempt at asking a fairly simple question.
Once again, the question is are there any science supply companies
that sell blood samples for the purpose of study, and if so,
is this the method used by medical schools to procure blood for their
students or do they use another method?

> What
> do you mean by "study"?

I mean put the blood in a glass slide stained with hematoxylin and
eosin, put it under a microscope, and document its makeup.
Also, I mean put a test tube of human blood in a centrifuge to
separate the red blood cels, white blood cels,
and platelets from the plasma, for the purpose of checking the ratio
of cells to fluid.
John Gentile - 19 Jul 2008 02:08 GMT
>> Why do
>> you think that only blood banks and VA hospitals "study" blood???
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I assume the VA is inspecting blood for the presence or lack of
> something, perhaps good or bad.

NO: VA hospitals analyze blood for exactly the same reason and methods
any other hospital laboratory does. Research labs may be analyzing
blood for new treatments and to research diseases.

>> Almost all physcians order blood work to diagnose and follow treatment
>> of their patients.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> is this the method used by medical schools to procure blood for their
> students or do they use another method?

You can try some biological supply businesses, but you probably need to
document that you are an accredited learning institution.

>> What
>> do you mean by "study"?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> and platelets from the plasma, for the purpose of checking the ratio
> of cells to fluid.

That analysis is what we and every other clinical lab does with
patient's blood. And as I explained earlier, I analyzed my own blood
and the blood of my fellow students.

Haven't we been through this discussioin before??? You're going to get
the same answers.

Signature

John Gentile MS, M(ASCP)
Laboratory Information Mgr.
VA Medical Center
Providence, RI
yjgent@cox.net

Manky Badger - 19 Jul 2008 07:28 GMT
> This is my second attempt at asking a fairly simple question.

And again you don't seem to be explaining yourself very clearly

>> What
>> do you mean by "study"?
>
> I mean put the blood in a glass slide stained with hematoxylin and
> eosin, put it under a microscope, and document its makeup.

hematoxylin and eosin ?

May Grunwald/Giemsa or lieshman's might be more conventional.

> Also, I mean put a test tube of human blood in a centrifuge to
> separate the red blood cels, white blood cels,
> and platelets from the plasma, for the purpose of checking the ratio
> of cells to fluid.

Why would you want to do this? This is hardly "study" or "research" - this
is something that's done hundreds of times every day in most haematology
labs.

What you *seem* to be wanting is to use fifty-year old technology to perform
what is a very routine procedure.
If you could explain what you're after you might get more help.
JEDilworth - 20 Jul 2008 01:42 GMT
I don't think you realize what you say in your posts. You obviously
don't know how blood testing works.

The VA is NOT the only laboratory in the world. Why the VA fixation?
Laboratories perform various analyses on blood, either whole blood,
plasma, or serum, depending on the test that's ordered by the physician.
Blood samples must be fresh and analyzed within a certain period of time
or the results of the analysis will not be accurate.

A blood bank can either be an entity like the local Red Cross, which
supplies all of the units of blood for transfusion in my geographic
area, or other entities depending on the geographic location of the
hospital. Units of blood are collected through blood drives or at the
Red Cross. They are only good for a specific amount of time and outdates
are watched closely. Blood is collected in a preservative with a
specific outdate for each unit. These units can be split into various
components for transfusion by the ARC - platelets and fresh frozen
plasma being the two I thought of off of the top of my head.

A second definition of "blood bank" is the actual department in the
clinical laboratory who cross matches the blood that comes in from the
local supplier (ARC in our case) in order to allow a patient to be
transfused. Blood typing and screening for antibodies are involved here.
The blood from the patient to be transfused is collected from the
patient, brought down to the lab, typed and screened and crossmatched
against a specific unit of blood in the blood bank's inventory. When
everything matches, the blood is sent to the floor or the operating room
and the transfusion begins.

What do you mean by "inspection"??? Do you mean someone peering at RBC's
under a microscope? That is not going to tell you much. In a wet
preparation you just see a lot of little round RBC's dancing around. On
a stained smear (which one of the posters mentioned) you will see RBC's
fixed and dried. Slides are prepared as an adjunct to a CBC (complete
blood count) daily in thousands of laboratories world wide. Certain
morphological characteristics of the WBC's and RBC's are double checked
under the microscope if the automated system flags the count as having
something odd about it. The hematology technologist reads the slide and
reports what they see (too complicated to go into here). If they see
certain types of cells pathologists must review these slides, especially
if it looks like a newly diagnosed leukemia or other blood problem.

http://tinyurl.com/5hyz9w - page that talks about morphology and shows a
histogram of an automated blood count. Instrument shown on website is
quite old. They are much more sophisticated nowadays.

The components of blood - red cells, white cells, and platelets - are
analyzed by the millions daily with automated counting equipment world
wide. There are many manufacturers of automated blood cell counters.

http://tinyurl.com/5aujc6 - Coulter website with many analyzers listed.
I used Coulter as an example as it is one of the big manufacturers of
blood cell counters. There are others. Since I don't work in Hematology,
I'm not familiar with them.

http://tinyurl.com/6b44g9 - this article compares four different
analyzers

Virtually nobody analyzes these components manually any more. Again, if
something is abnormal, the trained hematologist will make a slide called
a "differential" and look at the cells manually. Again, the blood must
be fresh to analyze these things.

H&E stains are used in Histology, not hematology. I haven't worked in
Hematology for many years, but I believe Wright's stain or Wright-Giemsa
stain is the basic stained used for differential smears. There are other
stains that can be used in Hematology but these are the main ones.

I know of no supplier who will just send you blood for "inspection" or
"study." You sound like you have some sort of fantasy about studying
blood or something, and you are not based in reality.

What exactly do you want to "inspect"???? Do you want to work in
research? Are you at a university? What's the real deal?

Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP)
Microbiology

> No actually you misread my post.
> What I am presenting is that blood banks and the VA draw blood for
> SPECIFIC reasons.
> Notice I use the word inspection, instead of study. [rest of stuff
> snipped]
kuhnfucius - 22 Jul 2008 03:09 GMT
"various entities" there is only one that counts.  We here at the CIA we
just prefer to chop of a finger tip.   However a more clanestine method is
to collected from used immunization needles and build a population data
base.   This replaces the older method of paying medical schools for rolling
drunks in the city and making it look like vampires did it, or peircing ear
lobes.
The process of a practicum (see a Thesaurus, usually under Jurasic Park) in
a medical laboratory might be useful.

>I am curious about the nature of how human blood is obtained for the
> purpose of study.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Any information regarding how human blood is obtained for study will
> be appreciated.
 
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