Medical Forum / General / Laboratory / February 2008
Why is the erythrocyte sedimentation rate being phased out in favor of the plasma viscosity?
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douglas - 26 Feb 2008 08:05 GMT I've heard that the erythrocyte sedimentation rate is being phased out in favor of the plasma viscosity? Why? And I've also heard you can replace the ESR w/ C-reactive protein titers. Any reason why the venerable ESR is losing it's popularity? Thanks!!!!
L - 26 Feb 2008 09:26 GMT Hi Douglas ESR is a very slow indicator for the acute phase reaction whereas CRP increases dramatically within few hours of inflammatory stimulus. CRP levels can also be used as a rough estimate of the degree of tissue involvement - and though a un-specific parameter also as a guide to wheter the infection is viral or bacterial. However CRP-measurements should always be evaluated in line with clinical assesssment of the patient and other lab-findings. However - a raised CRP does not tell you if it is pneumonia or an infected wound.In genral you would expect genrealised, deep or/and bacterial infections to give a more marked response than viral or superficial ones - Thus - measuring CRP could reduce the use of unnecessary antibiotic treatment - and perhaps easing the antibiotic pressure on bacterias and avoiding creation of multirestent killers. ESR is influenced by several issues - age fx - situations where you see only a moderate rise in CRP - pregnancy fx. If fxyou have a SLE patient or maybe a patient with ulcerative colitis the CRP-response is rather low compared to the severity of the disease. However if an infectious complication in these patients the CRP response will be asexpected for the infection. Also you are able to follow treatment with antibiotics with serial CRP measurments - or catch unexpected post operative infections. One of the major advantages is the short turn around time for CRP measurments - there are PoC equipments available for use in ECU and GP clinics.
Though totally uncomparable - I tend to see CRP and ESR as glucose and HbA1c - CRP is an instant indication of the patient's immediate inflammatory status - and ESR gives you an overview of the past weeks - just as glucose tells you how the situation is for the moment - and HbA1c an indication of the situation over the past weeks.
Well, I could talk hours in favor of CRP versus ESR...
> I've heard that the erythrocyte sedimentation rate is being phased out > in favor of the plasma viscosity? Why? And I've also heard you can > replace the ESR w/ C-reactive protein titers. Any reason why the > venerable ESR is losing it's popularity? Thanks!!!! douglas - 26 Feb 2008 10:44 GMT > Hi Douglas > ESR is a very slow indicator for the acute phase reaction whereas CRP [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > - Show quoted text - So, would getting an ESR+CRP be a good test combo? Would an "inflammation panel" be ESR+CRP+PV+ferritin+haptoglobin +IL-1+IL-6+IL-13 --though I'm not sure of the last three titers--? Do you know of anyone who orders those tests together?
I want to be an internist --I'm 16 and starting college--, and more specifically, a hematologist/oncologist --or maybe a C&L immunologist--, so I'm trying to learn a much as I can from you med techs, the unsung heroes of the healthcare system. And having endless fun designing medical drama in my mind.
Thank you!!!! You are SO helpful!!!!!
L - 26 Feb 2008 11:47 GMT Hi agin You wrote: So, would getting an ESR+CRP be a good test combo? Would an "inflammation panel" be ESR+CRP+PV+ferritin+haptoglobin +IL-1+IL-6+IL-13 --though I'm not sure of the last three titers--? Do you know of anyone who orders those tests together?
..... I think that would be overkill. I know very well that there is a tendency to practise "defensive medicine" when ordering your lab work, but it is simple statistics that if you test enough parameters you will eventually find one which is out of range. There will always be a balance between economics and outcome. measuring interleucines can be useful in some settings, but diagnosis should be done based on the clinical picture together with relevant lab findings - Very often it would sufifce with leuc and crp - but again, what kind of patient are we talking about - look at the patient, talk with the patient - Basicly - do what mothers do - does it hurt - where - why - fever - tired - general looks - dizzyness etc etc Also - what are the setting - patients i general practice is in general healthy individuals (whatever healthy means) and patients in the hospital wards are in general sick. You also have to differ between diagnosing and monitoring. If diagnosing a patient the clinical picture gives an indication of disease - you have a tentative diagnosis - which in turn can be confirmed (or not) with relevant tests. One should not "fire at will" from the lab-panel.
If you are interested in the use of crp, try google for "crp in clinical use" and within the first two or three pages you have all the info you want. You might want to scroll quickly past the cardiac sites until done with the others...
douglas - 26 Feb 2008 20:27 GMT > Hi aginYou wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > You might want to scroll quickly past the cardiac sites until done with the > others... OK, firing off seven lab tests to test for the same thing is *not* a good thing. What about ordering an ESR (or PV) every day, and a CRP every hour while someone's in the ICU? And what's the diff b/w CRP and hs-CRP?
BTW, when someone's having an attack of PNH, would their RPI be much greater then 2, since PNH causes massive hemolysis?
Thanks!!!!
JEDilworth - 27 Feb 2008 00:23 GMT This very subject came up on one of my List-servs (general lab) lately. One of our venerable members said that about the only time ESR is still useful is for autoimmune vasculitis, particularly Polyarteritis Nodosa, because ESR is sometimes the ONLY test that is abnormal with this disease. Increases and decreases in sed rates are also apparently used to track clinical symptoms in PAN patients. I guess there are really no other tests to help in the diagnosis of PAN. It was also further mentioned that this test might be really only necessary, in a large lab, to run one per week.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyarteritis_nodosa
BTW, hourly ESR's would set off a huge hue and cry from the lab. This is NOT a test you run that often and somebody would be on the phone to the floor to check on this.
I do know that a typical outpatient order is ESR, ANA, RA, CRP (sometimes), and a CBC. Sometimes some other chemistries are thrown in. This is a starting place for anyone with joint pain, etc.
I know nothing about any of these diseases and am just passing on information. I have done micro exclusively since 1988, but I was involved in general lab stuff and lab marketing once upon a time, so I do have some familiarity with other departments :-). I am not aware of plasma viscosity. This must be something new.
Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP) Microbiology
> I've heard that the erythrocyte sedimentation rate is being phased out > in favor of the plasma viscosity? Why? And I've also heard you can > replace the ESR w/ C-reactive protein titers. Any reason why the > venerable ESR is losing it's popularity? Thanks!!!! douglas - 27 Feb 2008 00:55 GMT On Feb 26, 4:23 pm, "JEDilworth" <bactit...@nospamhortonsbay.com> wrote:
> This very subject came up on one of my List-servs (general lab) lately. > One of our venerable members said that about the only time ESR is still [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I did say ESR/day, CRP/hr, I think you misread, Ms. Dilworth. And could you --or someone else, since you yourself said that this isn't your forte-- please answer my other questions.
Have you ever had a Dr who flooded the lab w/ tests, and you were stuck doing his tests, and only his, for quite a while?
Thanks!!!!
John Gentile - 27 Feb 2008 03:11 GMT > I did say ESR/day, CRP/hr, I think you misread, Ms. Dilworth. And > could you --or someone else, since you yourself said that this isn't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Thanks!!!! Yes, I have been stuck doing unnecessary tests by a doctor. I work in a teaching hospital and at night the attendings go home leaving the interns and residents free to go wild with lab tests. Some of the phone calls we get show that they do not have a good understanding of lab tests or how the lab works in general. that is a missing piece of medical education.
We had a lab tech who worked for us for 2 years before going to med school. she had a much better foundation for lab testing than any doc in her class. It is well worth considering!
 Signature John Gentile MS, M(ASCP) Laboratory Information Mgr. VA Medical Center Providence, RI yjgent@cox.net
JEDilworth - 27 Feb 2008 05:19 GMT Much as we hate to lose good MT's to med school, what John said is very true. My sister-in-law was a med tech in Chemistry and then in Microbiology for quite awhile. She went back to school in her 40's after a divorce and became a PA (physician's assistant). She was miles ahead of everyone in her class as far as the lab went and she ended up teaching micro at the PA school for awhile until her hours were increased on her job. The other family practice docs where she works always defer to her on basic microbiology questions. Another friend of hers was a med tech and went onto dental school. Same thing - the lab experience put him way ahead of his classmates.
Another good friend was a med tech in Hematology/Blood Bank/Chemistry/Urinalysis (i.e. general lab) for many years and was admitted to med school at the ripe old age of 37. He's been an ER doc since he graduated in 1986 and is in his 60's now. The lab experience for his line of work put him ahead of most ER docs we run into.
One of our techs went on and is in Podiatry school now - same story.
Do not discount the laboratory as far as laying an excellent foundation for medical/dental/other medical professional school. It gives you good experience and decent income to be able to pursue med school down the road.
As far as unnecessary testing....with online ordering (as opposed to paper ordering - most hospitals are going to the former) many tests cannot be ordered too many times per day anymore. Insurance companies/Medicare/Medicaid will NOT reimburse a hospital for duplicate testing so the system just won't let you order them. That being said, there are ways around a lot of things - docs ranting and raving being one of them. This does NOT go over well with the lab (we are sharper than most docs think) and docs that chew out the lab and otherwise rant at us get "labelled" and their reputations are spread far and wide. In some hospitals these types of orders are reviewed by the clinical pathologists first, especially if the test is an expensive send-out with no clinical reason for ordering it other than ego. The clinical pathologist is the ultimate boss of any laboratory and what they say goes. I remember when I first started out there was one resident who used to routinely order EVERY chemistry test on our requisition. This required LOTS of blood in the 1970's and I remember drawing these poor patients with a 50 cc syringe. This does NOT happen anymore. The DRG (diagnostic related group - all Medicare patients are assigned to one based on their diagnosis) oversight is too stringent. Hospitals get paid a flat fee for the DRG the patient is assigned to by coders (based on their medical records, certain in-house events, etc.). If they code wrong and the patient is in longer than the DRG will pay for, the hospitals eat the overage. The docs are under pressure to discharge patients because of this and they DON'T use up DRG money on too much unnecessary testing if they can help it. The hospitals monitor which docs order too much.....
Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP) Microbiology
> We had a lab tech who worked for us for 2 years before going to med > school. she had a much better foundation for lab testing than any doc > in her class. It is well worth considering! douglas - 27 Feb 2008 07:26 GMT On Feb 26, 9:19 pm, "JEDilworth" <bactit...@nospamhortonsbay.com> wrote:
> Much as we hate to lose good MT's to med school, what John said is very > true. My sister-in-law was a med tech in Chemistry and then in [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I can see this on someone's hospital interview "Well, Dr Carlton, unfortunately we have to reject you, b/c it seems that you have brought every hospital laboratory, in every hospital you've worked at since medical school, to a screeching halt. How do you explain your lab-o-mania?" "I was just being thorough..."
You know the joke "Internists know everything and do nothing, surgeons know nothing and do everything, and pathologists know everything and do everything, just too late"? Where would radiologists fit in to that?
And what does clinical pathology entail? I've heard that the med techs interpret most of that, so the pathologists can get to work on the anatomical pathology stuff.
And does hematopathology fall into AP, or CP?
Thanks!!!!
JEDilworth - 28 Feb 2008 06:19 GMT http://www.ascp.org/careerlinks/pathologist.aspx - this should give you some more information on clinical pathology, at least.
It is my understanding that Anatomical pathologists do not get into laboratory administration. They just do their anatomical thing and leave the administrative stuff to the clinical guys. Clinical pathologists perform pathology duties but are also involved in the actual administration of the laboratory and oversee, in our case, the laboratory administrator and, under him, the laboratory managers and team leaders (and, ultimately, the medical technologists who perform the lab work).
They are updating their website soon and the above link may not work after March 6.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_pathologist - information for the US below:
"Anatomic Pathology (AP) is one of the two primary certifications offered by the American Board of Pathology. The other is Clinical Pathology (CP). To be certified in anatomic pathology, the trainee must complete four years of medical school followed by three years of residency training. Many US pathologists are certified in both AP and CP, which requires a total of four years of residency. After completing residency, many pathologists enroll in further years of fellowship training to gain expertise in a subspecialty of AP."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_Pathology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematopathology - Pathologists can specialize after they go through their regular pathology rotation. Pathologists usually have an area of expertise. I've known pathologists who have specialized in hematology, blood banking, thyroid fine needle aspirations, dermatopathology (a high demand specialty - some labs refer all their difficult skin biopsy cases to them. When I was marketing many prospective clients asked if we had a dermatopathologist on staff. The lab I used to work for got TONS of skin tags, punch biopsies, etc. in for examination on a daily basis).
We currently have a pathologist assigned to microbiology. At my former position, we had a similar situation. Tough call results always had to be cleared through the pathologist before signing out results. This is also the situation where I work now. That's why they pay them the big bucks :-). They obviously do their pathology thing also, but our pathologist's office is located in our department.
Hope this helps.
Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP) Microbiology
And what does clinical pathology entail? I've heard that the med techs interpret most of that, so the pathologists can get to work on the anatomical pathology stuff.
And does hematopathology fall into AP, or CP?
Thanks!!!!
Manky Badger - 27 Feb 2008 08:07 GMT > I've heard that the erythrocyte sedimentation rate is being phased out > in favor of the plasma viscosity? Why? And I've also heard you can > replace the ESR w/ C-reactive protein titers. Any reason why the > venerable ESR is losing it's popularity? Thanks!!!! The problem with the ESR is that it doesn't specifically measure anything. It's simply a case of "the higher the number, the iller the patient." Which is why it's so useful. As for being relaced by plasma viscosity - I always thought plasma viscosity was on the way out. For all it's failings,, an ESR is very simple to perform.
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