Medical Forum / General / Laboratory / June 2007
How and why would you perform an ELISPOT?
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DarkProtoman - 26 Jun 2007 23:50 GMT How and why would you perform an ELISPOT? Do they peform that test when a lumber puncture's ordered in a suspected case of meningococcemia?
JEDilworth - 27 Jun 2007 06:19 GMT I personally have never heard of this methodology. I looked it up in Google, and it seems to be a methodology for different tests, not a test in and of itself.
When a lumbar puncture is ordered to rule out meningitis, there are usually 3-4 tubes of CSF drawn off in special lumbar puncture tubes labelled 1,2,3,4. All tests on CSF's are considered STAT tests and the basic tests are done right away. Every lab has its own protocol as to which tube goes where. One tube goes to microbiology; one to Hematology, and the other goes to chemistry. If there is a fourth tube it is usually saved for possible further testing in microbiology. All of them go to microbiology first at our place, since we have to have a sterile specimen. We then distribute the other tubes to the other departments.
Micro does a cytocentrifuge smear of the fluid and performs a gram stain on this slide. If the gram stain is positive for any bacterial morphologies (gram positive cocci in pairs, gram negative rods, gram negative diplococci, etc.) the floor is called immediately as this is considered a life threatening situation. Bacterial meningococcal meningitis presents with a gram stain of many WBC's and gram negative intracellular diplococci. This infection can kill within hours. CSF's that are cloudy are almost always positive.
We used to perform an antigen tests that included Ag for Group B strep, N. meningitidis, H. influenzae, a certain strain of E. coli, and S. pneumoniae. We stopped doing it a year ago, as a cytocentrifuged gram smear is more sensitive than the test was. The doctors really never complained that we stopped performing it. It was a pain in the rear, also. It was a latex agglutination test.
We then spin the rest of the fluid in our tube and plate the sediment onto blood agar and chocolate agar. We hold the plates three days and look for any growth each day before calling it negative and signing it out. We give updated preliminary reports each day. If fungal or mycobacterial infection is suspected, additional media are added for these organisms. Fungal media is held for four weeks and mycobacterial media (acid fast organisms, the most common of which is M. tuberculosis) is held for 6 weeks. Micro can also test for viruses, and enterovirus PCR seems to be a popular order. We also get seasonal requests for West Nile Virus. The most common fungal infection of CSF is Cryptococcus neoformans.
Hematology gets an aliquot and performs a cell count. I believe a differential smear is done on a cytocentrifuged smear if the white count is over a certain level. A differential smear is stained with Wright's stain and the cells are enumerated - how many segmented neutrophils, lymphocytes, monocytes, etc. are seen.
The most common tests that chemistry performs on CSF are glucose and protein, but other tests can be performed also, depending on the diagnosis. Sometimes spinal taps are performed to rule out multiple sclerosis, and then a different battery of tests is added on to the ones above.
The textbook picture of a bacterially infected CSF would include an elevated total protein, a low glucose, an elevated WBC count, and a positive gram smear.
Where did you come up with this ELISPOT test having to do with meningococcemia? Can you post a URL? Every lab I've ever worked in for over thirty years performs the testing above as a routine starting point for lumbar punctures.
Anyone else care to chime in?
Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP) Microbiology
> How and why would you perform an ELISPOT? Do they peform that test > when a lumber puncture's ordered in a suspected case of > meningococcemia? DarkProtoman - 27 Jun 2007 18:07 GMT On Jun 26, 10:19 pm, "JEDilworth" <bactit...@nospamhortonsbay.com> wrote:
> I personally have never heard of this methodology. I looked it up in > Google, and it seems to be a methodology for different tests, not a test [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I was actually wondering what an ELISPOT was; but your post was pretty cool.
JEDilworth - 27 Jun 2007 18:30 GMT Why thanks, DarkProtoman. If you thought it was cool, it probably means that you would be interested in working in a laboratory someday. That's a good sign.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELISPOT
http://elispot.com/elispot-wells.html
http://elispot.com/
It seems they are produced by a company in Germany. It would have to have FDA approval to be in use in the US. To date I have not heard of it, but there is a lot of new stuff coming out nowadays so that doesn't mean anything, and I don't work in serology, which is the market for these tests. The laboratory has changed immensely in the last thirty years. Molecular testing has taken off just in the last five years. This company seems to be in on all that new stuff. Anybody else know about them?
http://www.aid-diagnostika.com/english/index.htm
The website mentions auto-immune testing (of which I know nothing). There is a whole class of autoimmune diseases that are currently diagnosed by ANA (antinuclear antibody) testing along with other tests if the ANA is positive. These diseases include rheumatoid arthritis, scleraderma, lupus, and others.
Keep being interested in new things, DP, and you'll do well in any type of medical training you go into.
Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP) Microbiology
> I was actually wondering what an ELISPOT was; but your post was pretty > cool. DarkProtoman - 27 Jun 2007 19:00 GMT On Jun 27, 10:30 am, "JEDilworth" <bactit...@nospamhortonsbay.com> wrote:
> Why thanks, DarkProtoman. If you thought it was cool, it probably means > that you would be interested in working in a laboratory someday. That's [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Can I be a medical laboratory assistant while I'm 16 --if I pass my CHSPE, I get a certifcate of proficency, which in my state of California is legally equivalent to a HS diploma 9I can skip my junior and senior years and go directly to community college), and exempts me from needing a work permit--?
DarkProtoman - 27 Jun 2007 20:25 GMT On Jun 26, 10:19 pm, "JEDilworth" <bactit...@nospamhortonsbay.com> wrote:
> I personally have never heard of this methodology. I looked it up in > Google, and it seems to be a methodology for different tests, not a test [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > - Show quoted text - If it's not cloudy, but lesser versions of meningococcemia or bacterial meningitis symptoms --headache, pyrexia, photophobia, stiff neck, etc-- exist --meningococcemia happens when you have bacterial meningitis and you become septic--, and no creepy bruises caused by capillaries exploding under the skin, I'd perform a sandwich ELISA or ELISPOT to rule out influenza and test for aseptic --viral-- meningitis.
JEDilworth - 27 Jun 2007 22:23 GMT No, you would perform PCR testing for specific viruses including West Nile, Herpes, and enterovirus. These are the most common. I'm basing this response on what I see ordered by the docs on a daily basis. You would also probably do a viral culture to cover anything the specific PCR testing would miss. These are all very expensive tests so you would be prudent and order based on the patient's presentation in the ER. ELISPOT is a European product and probably not available in the U.S.
Viral workups are sometimes ordered after the docs get the basic chemistries, cell count, and gram stain results. They are not necessarily the first test ordered because viruses don't show up in any type of smear and the testing is unavailable in most smaller hospitals. Many times it is sent out to a reference facility.
Don't get me wrong - CSF's can be positive for bacteria without being outright cloudy. We recently had a neonate positive for Group B beta streptococcus. I wasn't on culture station that day but we were all surprised when we saw the gram stain packed with gram positive cocci. Unfortunately, the child passed away a couple of days later.
Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP) Microbiology
> If it's not cloudy, but lesser versions of meningococcemia or > bacterial meningitis symptoms --headache, pyrexia, photophobia, stiff [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ELISPOT to rule out influenza and test for aseptic --viral-- > meningitis. DarkProtoman - 27 Jun 2007 22:38 GMT On Jun 27, 2:23 pm, "JEDilworth" <bactit...@nospamhortonsbay.com> wrote:
> No, you would perform PCR testing for specific viruses including West > Nile, Herpes, and enterovirus. These are the most common. I'm basing [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Ah...
What's most expensive lab test you ever performed?
JEDilworth - 28 Jun 2007 03:03 GMT I have no idea. We don't have any idea what the "official" charges are for what we do. We do what is ordered by the physician and let the billing departments and the insurance companies fight it out.
Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP) Microbiology
> What's most expensive lab test you ever performed? DarkProtoman - 28 Jun 2007 03:12 GMT On Jun 27, 7:03 pm, "JEDilworth" <bactit...@nospamhortonsbay.com> wrote:
> I have no idea. We don't have any idea what the "official" charges are > for what we do. We do what is ordered by the physician and let the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > - Show quoted text - OK, what's the most complicated, then?
What's the most complicated test a MLT/HT can perform?
JEDilworth - 28 Jun 2007 03:55 GMT We do not have our MLT's do the anaerobic portion of aerobic anaerobic cultures. They do everything else. After five years in the field they can move up to the MT pay scale. This is how my employer works it; I have no idea how others do it. However in many places only MT's read cultures and MLT's are relegated to setting them up only. This division of labor totally depends on where you are working and what the ratio is of MT's to MLT's. Our team leader inspected a reference laboratory (very large one) last year where one MT was supervising about ten MLT's in microbiology. I'm not sure exactly how this worked. The reason for this was mainly because the shortage of MT's dictated this; MLT's were more plentiful.
I don't know about Histology as I am not trained for that department and have never worked in there. It is a totally different registry exam and totally different schooling to get there.
Most lab tests are listed as CLIA 88 waived (which means untrained doc's office type people can perform them) and then progress to different levels of complexity. If you really want to wade into this jungle of government-speak, go here:
http://wwwn.cdc.gov/clia/chronol.aspx
http://wwwn.cdc.gov/clia/testcat.aspx
I would suspect that most microbiology laboratories require their workers to be MT's because micro is a pretty complex department with many areas you must learn (bacteriology, parasitology, mycology, mycobacteriology, and now there is molecular....). Chemistry has gone the heavy automation route where one person quite literally can be responsible for hundreds of specimens. Our department just bought into a semi-robotic type instrument. I'm not sure of the pecking order there. I would guess MLT's can run analyzers with an MT supervising and available for questions on abnormal situations.
I've been lucky to work in a city that had numerous schools of medical technology back in the 70's. There are only two now; one is at our lab and the other is university based. Many of those techs stayed on locally and are now in their late 50's and early 60's, like I am. We are fortunate in that we have always been able to hire on MT's pretty easily. We only had an MLT training school in town for a short time. It closed about 4 years ago. However, three techs who I've known forever either just retired last April or will retire within the next thirty days. They all have well over 30 years each in the lab field. I'm sure this scenario will be repeated in many laboratories all over the country in the next ten years. Decades of experience will walk out the doors. This will happen in nursing, radiology, cytotechnology, and many other technical fields. If you are young and you can hack the science and math, there will be many opportunities for you. Kids nowadays shy away from the hard subjects, but that is where the shortages will be and that's where the money of the future will be made.
Judy Dilworth, M.T.(ASCP) Microbiology
> OK, what's the most complicated, then? > > What's the most complicated test a MLT/HT can perform? John Gentile - 29 Jun 2007 02:11 GMT > On Jun 27, 7:03 pm, "JEDilworth" <bactit...@nospamhortonsbay.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > What's the most complicated test a MLT/HT can perform? Automation is making laboratory testing a lot easier. However, there are many times when even a "simple" test turns out to be more complicated. For example when we crossmatch blood for a patient - most times it goes very smoothly, other times it becomes a real challange to find a blood unit that is complatible with the patient. To fail at this procedure could result is a very quick death to the patient. In microbiology most bacteria are eaily identified, but as I've always told my techs the bacteria don't read the text books and they can do pretty much what ever they please. A 1 day process to identify something can go for several days and then have to be sent out to a reference lab. i had an organism from a patient's infection that I just could not identify any further than the group of "Pasteurella/Hemophilus/Actinobacillus Group". I sent it to our state health department lab and they also failed to identify it. They sent it to the CDC in Atlanta, GA where they finally identified it as Actinobacillus acinomycetemcomitans, and it took them about a year to get that id back to us. We used the patient's case in our microbiology grand rounds.
There are many very complex testing that goes on in laboratories - things like histology, flow cytometry, eletrophoresis, toxicology by mass spectrophotometry, etc. Usually these tests are performed by specialists in those fields and because of their complexity are not done by regular staff.
 Signature John Gentile MS, M(ASCP) Laboratory Information Mgr. VA Medical Center Providence, RI yjgent@cox.net
DarkProtoman - 29 Jun 2007 04:55 GMT > > On Jun 27, 7:03 pm, "JEDilworth" <bactit...@nospamhortonsbay.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > - Show quoted text - OK, apparently no one answered my question about whether I could work part-time as a medical laboratory assistant when I'm 16.
JEDilworth - 29 Jun 2007 06:10 GMT I highly doubt whether anyone would hire you at that age to perform lab testing. They might hire you to do things like unpack boxes or do some other scut work like making media (very few places make their own any more), but there's a certain maturity people in charge of hiring are looking for and the age of 16 probably just doesn't cut it. You would have to have passed all required tests, obviously. Training takes a couple of years. If you're 15 now, how would you accomplish this? If you're skipping a couple of years of high school you still have the training to accomplish. Their are requirements for hiring set by CAP (College of American Pathologists) that accredit the majority of labs in the country. Managers have to show documentation of their employees' levels of training.
My guess is probably not, but I'm not in management. We hire college kids that are studying courses towards lab or nursing or something in the biology field, but these kids are usually in their early 20's. They work at the tube station (taking specimens from our underground tube system and dispersing them throughout the lab to the proper stations). They also work in specimen processing doing typing. All outpatient work has to have the insurance data, patient data, etc. entered into the computer system and THEN the work is ordered up on that specimen. The crew that does this is all in their 20's.
You seem like you're in a huge hurry to do something - not sure what. Slow down and finish your schooling. Many of our lab techs worked as waitresses/waiters or in retail while they were going to school before their training year. We usually only hire students in micro WHILE they're in MT training, and they are only allowed to set up specimens. They are not allowed to read out gram stains or chart any results. We've never hired anyone in MLT training. Our department is just too complicated. I worked as a chemistry tech on the weekends while in training in 1973-74. I had to go through chemistry first before I could do weekends in there. My training took up 40 hours/week so I couldn't work during the week except at night. I used to work evenings doing paper charting (pre-computer), where we pasted lab results in patients' charts. The techs hand-wrote out results on these chartable requisitions and signed their initials. I was 24 years old at the time - two years post degree. I worked for a couple of years before I decided to apply for MT training - worked as a lab secretary. With current regulations I doubt whether I would be able to do now what I did then. I actually performed and signed out total protein results and performed protein electrophoresis unsupervised on weekends. I did other chemistry testing also, but it was mostly electrophoresis.
My guess is that the state of California also would not allow you to work in a lab doing lab work at that young of an age.
Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP) Microbiology
> OK, apparently no one answered my question about whether I could work > part-time as a medical laboratory assistant when I'm 16. DarkProtoman - 29 Jun 2007 20:24 GMT > I highly doubt whether anyone would hire you at that age to perform lab > testing. They might hire you to do things like unpack boxes or do some [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Technically California wouldn't, but those rules only apply to those w/ o a HS diploma or equivalent. Passing the CHSPE is equivalent to a HS diploma.
Bob - 30 Jun 2007 02:59 GMT >> I highly doubt whether anyone would hire you at that age to perform lab >> testing. They might hire you to do things like unpack boxes or do some >> >> "DarkProtoman" <Protoman2...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>Technically California wouldn't, but those rules only apply to those w/ >o a HS diploma or equivalent. Passing the CHSPE is equivalent to a HS >diploma. The best way for you to do something that would normally not be considered is thru personal contact. Ask your family doctor, or someone such, who knows you well, to make a contact for you. A teacher might be able to help. The thing is to get your foot in the door.
As Judy notes, you are most likely to be hired without experience or any particular qualifications if you are willing to start with "menial" work. But if you can get with someone who is willing to mentor you, then possibilities might open up.
You would also increase your chances if you are willing to volunteer. That decreases the risk for the one taking you on. It also emphasizes that you are there for the experience, and makes for more flexibility.
In the same vein, if you have any contacts with research people at a local university, you might explore those contacts. The work may not be "med tech", but it would still be good experience. And it would be free of the formal aspects (eg, licensing) of med tech.
I think it is a longshot that you will find anyone willing to take you on at this point, unless you can exploit some kind of contact. But that shouldn't keep you from trying -- just don't get discouraged.
Do you know the idea of an "informational interview"? (If not, google it!) Might be a way for you to do some exploring, without anyone being committed.
bob
DarkProtoman - 30 Jun 2007 03:14 GMT > On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:24:05 -0700, DarkProtoman > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > bob Sure! Maybe I can get my internist friend, Mark C. Asbill, MD or his wife, Martha Asbill, MT to help me out.
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