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Medical Forum / General / Laboratory / September 2004

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Ratio a fraction in lab? How did that get started?

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jeffandlisa1513<spammers suck>@joimail.com - 04 Sep 2004 02:39 GMT
Hi. I'm a med tech student and recently "learned" in clin chem that 1:2
means 1 part IN 2. Huh? When I pointed out that most of the universe
considers 1:2 a ratio, meaning 1 part to 2 parts for a total of 3 parts, I
was told to "get over it." I now realize that in the real world, that's the
way it's done, but I find it embarrasing that our science field would
redefine a mathematic symbol. Why and how did this happen? How long has it
been this way? Are ratios over the heads of the typical med techs? I
certainly hope not!

Jeff
John Gentile - 04 Sep 2004 05:29 GMT
in article 10ji7aqqqt0pq13@corp.supernews.com, jeffandlisa1513<spammers
suck>@joimail.com  @JoiMail.com> at jeffandlisa1513<spammerssuck wrote on
9/3/04 9:39 PM:

> Hi. I'm a med tech student and recently "learned" in clin chem that 1:2
> means 1 part IN 2. Huh? When I pointed out that most of the universe
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Jeff

The 1:2 is not a ratio it is a dilution.

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Robert - 04 Sep 2004 08:05 GMT
> Hi. I'm a med tech student and recently "learned" in clin chem that 1:2
> means 1 part IN 2. Huh? When I pointed out that most of the universe
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Jeff

It is a ratio. The ratio of 1 within a total volume of 2. In regular
chemistry you see ratios being defined by total volumes such as placing one
gram inside a volumetric flask and q.s. to one liter. You do not collect one
liter of water and add one gram to it.
Bob - 04 Sep 2004 18:05 GMT
>> Hi. I'm a med tech student and recently "learned" in clin chem that 1:2
>> means 1 part IN 2. Huh? When I pointed out that most of the universe
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>It is a ratio. The ratio of 1 within a total volume of 2.

That is an abuse of the term ratio!

>In regular
>chemistry you see ratios being defined by total volumes such as placing one
>gram inside a volumetric flask and q.s. to one liter. You do not collect one
>liter of water and add one gram to it.

Nonsense. One can do either, depending on what you want. (Loosely, and
using moles rather than grams, one give molar-type solutions and the
other gives molal-type solutions. But this has nothing to do with the
OP's question; no chemist would use ratio terminology in describing
either solution. (by which I mean, they would not use the :
terminology. They use an explicit description, such as M, which means
moles of solute per liter of solution; or m, which means moles of
solute per kilogram of solvent.

I find the OP's question interesting. And most of the replies have
been quite unresponsive. I am not a MT, but do teach chemistry. How to
state dilutions seems to be confusing -- the point of the original
post. My own preferred solution (no pun intended) is to state
dilutions as to how many-fold they are, eg, a 2-fold (2X) dilution
(which I would call 1:1), or a ten fold dilution, etc. Describing
dilutions that way is unambiguous. Using the ratio symbol seems to
have become ambiguous, if not simply wrong. So simply for clarity in
the real world, I would try to avoid the ratio terminology here.

bob
Robert - 04 Sep 2004 18:49 GMT
> >> Hi. I'm a med tech student and recently "learned" in clin chem that 1:2
> >> means 1 part IN 2. Huh? When I pointed out that most of the universe
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> bob

The term "dilution" does not come from chemistry. It is a serological term.
As you mention in chemistry you only see the ratio symbol when using moles
or formulas to be converted into working solutions or quantities of
appropriate volumnes or concentration as there are no standard
concentrations of stock chemicals. It is inappropriate to state ratios
without stating concentrations. Once you do that the ratio format falls
apart and it is not used except in Martha Stewarts kitchen level of
chemistry.
In serology the original starting concentration is not important as a 1:2
means what ever you started with and they don't care then you do a dilution
to get one part in a total of 2 parts diluent. In chemistry you must always
know what the concentration of the original solution is.
Thats the clarification I wanted.
thanks
Bob - 05 Sep 2004 19:20 GMT
>"Bob" <bbruner@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote in message

<snip>

In part, this is a turf-war, and I have been playing into it, too.
So let me try to be neutral for a moment (before pouncing on you
again).

For whatever reason, the dilution designation tends to be used
differently by people in different fields. This in itself is
confusing, and it doesn't really matter why the difference. That is
really the point of the OP, and I applaud him for noticing it. But I
should also note that such terminology differences between fields are
not all that uncommon. Students like to think that science is precise,
and that scientific terminology is precise. Perhaps it is, but it is
also inconsistent between fields. The reason is simple enough.
Historically, terminology in different fields tends to develop
independently. Even people in different areas of chemistry find that
some terms are used differently between them. So it really is
important to be alert. A term means what the person using it intends
it to mean -- as Humpty Dumpty taught us, in more elegant words.

Ok, now back to partisanship and the real truth...

>The term "dilution" does not come from chemistry. It is a serological term.

Huh? That is hard to believe. Chem is a much older science than
serology. I don't have any facts at hand on this particular point, but
I would be quite surprised if the use of dilutions in both chem and
microbiol did not precede use in serology. There might be an
interesting story here, if anyone actually knows some historical
facts.

(The word itself dates from 17th century, but not sure we learn much
from that per se.)

>As you mention in chemistry you only see the ratio symbol when using moles
>or formulas to be converted into working solutions or quantities of
>appropriate volumnes or concentration as there are no standard
>concentrations of stock chemicals. It is inappropriate to state ratios
>without stating concentrations.

Nonsense. One does not have to know anything about concentrations in
order to do dilutions or state ratios. A statement to dilute something
10-fold (by volume -- and that part is generally understood unless
specified otherwise) is fully meaningful, and does not depend in any
way on knowing anything about concentration.

I bet that most dilutions are done on unknowns, rather than on
solutions of known conc. (Also in microbiology.)

> In chemistry you must always
>know what the concentration of the original solution is.

Not true.  See previous point.

There is no fundamental difference in how dilutions are used in chem
and in serology. In both cases, the basic point is to get the conc
into a desirable range.  If there is a difference in how dilutions are
specified, it is just an historical idiosyncrasy, as discussed above.

bob
Manky Badger - 04 Sep 2004 10:29 GMT
> Hi. I'm a med tech student and recently "learned" in clin chem that 1:2
> means 1 part IN 2. Huh? When I pointed out that most of the universe
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Jeff

How do you say out loud "1:2 "?

1 in 2 has a total of two parts, 1 to 2 has a total of three.
The terms are different.
LC - 04 Sep 2004 13:41 GMT
(snip)

> How do you say out loud "1:2 "?
>
> 1 in 2 has a total of two parts, 1 to 2 has a total of three.
> The terms are different.

Having worked in more than 10 institutions in my career, this is an
important distinction to make during initial training.  Different texts,
different facilities, different departments, and even different SOP writers
use the symbol in their own way, but you can usually guess the correct way
by its usage.

In the field of Med Tech, we use professional judgement alot -- a 1:10
dilution using MLA pipettes becomes 1:11 when you only have a gray one and a
blue one!

Larry
 
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