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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Herpes / June 2005

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Mosquito versus herpes blister experiment proposal

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Perl Molson - 30 May 2005 17:49 GMT
It is obvious that when a mosquito would bite, there
will be formed a blister, bump type of inflammation.

It looks pretty much like a blister caused by herpes, just
it is larger in size and herpes causes somewhere about
I would reckon very approximate, 20 or so blisters simultaneously.

How would be like, if the poison of a mosquito would be
extracted and with it would be filled a chip-like siz
area filled with very tiny needles each containing
a percentage from the ammount of a mosquito poison?

I have to suggest that the results might be surprising.
It may act like a vaccine for herpes, perhaps?
Tim, any thoughts on this one?

Cheers,

Perl von Molson
M.L.S. - 31 May 2005 16:55 GMT
>It is obvious that when a mosquito would bite, there
>will be formed a blister, bump type of inflammation.

>It looks pretty much like a blister caused by herpes, just
>it is larger in size and herpes causes somewhere about
>I would reckon very approximate, 20 or so blisters simultaneously.

>How would be like, if the poison of a mosquito would be
>extracted and with it would be filled a chip-like siz
>area filled with very tiny needles each containing
>a percentage from the ammount of a mosquito poison?

>I have to suggest that the results might be surprising.
>It may act like a vaccine for herpes, perhaps?
>Tim, any thoughts on this one?

>Cheers,

>Perl von Molson

Why not just refrain from bathing for a couple of days this summer,
Perlie, and go out and stand in your yard.  The mosquitoes will find
you and extract and inject their "poision" for you themselves.

I believe this goes into Perlie's already voluminous "What a maroon"
file.

Yeeesh.

Mike
Perl Molson - 31 May 2005 22:23 GMT
> >It is obvious that when a mosquito would bite, there
> >will be formed a blister, bump type of inflammation.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Perlie, and go out and stand in your yard.  The mosquitoes will find
> you and extract and inject their "poision" for you themselves.

Good question Mickie; however, you missed the whole point of the
issue here.
It is not about getting tons of bites on your skin, separated by
milimeters,
but rather having those punctuated areas waaay closer to each other
(perhaps
within micrometers if not nanometers from each other).
As close as so the immune system cannot by-pass the damaged areas
(until it learns how to do it effectively). And it can learn; how else
do you explain
why most people don't ever get visible sores even though carry the
virus?

After all, that would be one of the goals, as a start, in dealing with
herpes,
isn't it, no sores whatsoever when herpes becomes active?

Well, it goes into the "asymptomatic shedding" state to say the least.

Perl von Molson

> I believe this goes into Perlie's already voluminous "What a maroon"
> file.
>
> Yeeesh.
>
> Mike
M.L.S. - 01 Jun 2005 00:39 GMT
>> Why not just refrain from bathing for a couple of days this summer,
>> Perlie, and go out and stand in your yard.  The mosquitoes will find
>> you and extract and inject their "poision" for you themselves.

>Good question Mickie; however, you missed the whole point of the
>issue here.

As usual with you, Perlie, there is no point.

Mike

>It is not about getting tons of bites on your skin, separated by
>milimeters,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>why most people don't ever get visible sores even though carry the
>virus?

>After all, that would be one of the goals, as a start, in dealing with
>herpes,
>isn't it, no sores whatsoever when herpes becomes active?

>Well, it goes into the "asymptomatic shedding" state to say the least.

>Perl von Molson

>> I believe this goes into Perlie's already voluminous "What a maroon"
>> file.

>> Yeeesh.

>> Mike
Tim Fitzmaurice - 31 May 2005 17:29 GMT
> It is obvious that when a mosquito would bite, there
> will be formed a blister, bump type of inflammation.

Its not absolutely obvious...it happens to a lot of people, but people can
get bitten and not react. I've been all over the world and been bitten by all
sorts of insects and I often react - there are some places I don't
(Singapore being one more than most) and some places I do - in all that
time none have ever looked like herpes blister...the early swelling maybe
but not the full on lesion.

> It looks pretty much like a blister caused by herpes, just
> it is larger in size and herpes causes somewhere about
> I would reckon very approximate, 20 or so blisters simultaneously.

See above. Never seen a mossie bite that came up like a herpes lesion with
blistering and crusting.

> How would be like, if the poison of a mosquito would be
> extracted and with it would be filled a chip-like siz
> area filled with very tiny needles each containing
> a percentage from the ammount of a mosquito poison?

Mosquitoes are not poisonous, the reaction is a sensitivity reaction to
them and the proteins they leave behind from their mouthparts.

> I have to suggest that the results might be surprising.
> It may act like a vaccine for herpes, perhaps?

Nope, the proteins are completely different so its not going to help with
the adaptive immune response. Its hitting areas of the immune system that
are beyond the innate immune system as well so again outside the area and
its localised to the bite site.

Given a lot of the lesion is immunopathology in herpes you don;t
just want a trigger happy immune response, it needs to be targetted.

If you want to look at nonspecific priming and herpes look at hte
microbicides they examine that have a wide potential of antiviral action
(ie they'd hit several of the STDs aropund) and the interferon stimulating
gene induction they rely on. If you want to look at immune tolerance to a
substance then beesting venom and wasp venom is studied but the idea is to
produce no reaction to such chemical insults...fine if you want to avoid
bee stings hurting, not good for a vaccine which relies on a response, not
an absence of response.

Tim
--
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
ICQ: 5178568
Perl Molson - 31 May 2005 22:09 GMT
> > It is obvious that when a mosquito would bite, there
> > will be formed a blister, bump type of inflammation.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> See above. Never seen a mossie bite that came up like a herpes lesion with
> blistering and crusting.

My ideea started from the hypothesis that,
viruses are causing several minuscule blisters that
will further become one or several larger blisters by joining in
together.
During such "merging", the crust (and other specific patterns) will
form, perhaps due to the
interspacial between the tiny blisters.

If an "artificial" environment would be created through such
a mentioned "chip" containing a surface of injectable mosquito
"stuff"(not to
call it poison), a similar pattern of stress such as in herpes would
eventually
develop on the skin.

Call it "poisonous acupuncture" if you wish.

The nervous endings and the immune system may react differently
upon such an outside stimulus.
Consequently, as in the case of traditional acupuncture,
a reactivity would occur at the skin/mucosa level, offering
a different flow of healing "bodily material", effective enough to cope
on efficient timely basis, with the herpes' distructive potential.

> > How would be like, if the poison of a mosquito would be
> > extracted and with it would be filled a chip-like siz
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> are beyond the innate immune system as well so again outside the area and
> its localised to the bite site.

Herpes viruses are not partly made of proteins? As different as they
may be,
a blister that is caused by a mosquito bite, may be pretty much
an enlarge blister caused by herpes simplex virus (see above for
clarification
regarding the specificity of herpes' causality of the skin's sores)

> Given a lot of the lesion is immunopathology in herpes you don;t
> just want a trigger happy immune response, it needs to be targetted.

Targetting the usual locations where the herpes sores take place.
Similar somewhat, as in the case of acupuncture. The immune system
needs
to learn how to "get to" certain areas "by-passing" already damaged
cells and other skin/mucosa structures.

In a casual body being attacked by herpes simplex,
the immune system cannot reach efficiently enough the affected
ares, to counteract the rapid progression of the viruses in their
"take-over".

By-passing the affected areas of the already damage cells and all the
rest of it, through "guided learning" as in an artificially created
problem solving situation, will allow the immune system to do the work.

> If you want to look at nonspecific priming and herpes look at hte
> microbicides they examine that have a wide potential of antiviral action
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
> ICQ: 5178568
M.L.S. - 31 May 2005 22:20 GMT
>My ideea started from the hypothesis that,

LOL and sure thing, Perlie.

Hey, Perlie, a thousand itchy mosquito bites will not stop the itch
of the thousandth and one bite.

You're chasing another parked car.  Stop it.  

Mike
Tim Fitzmaurice - 01 Jun 2005 07:55 GMT
> My ideea started from the hypothesis that,
> viruses are causing several minuscule blisters that
> will further become one or several larger blisters by joining in
> together.

Yes, I could see the basic law of similars you were working on. I just
don't think it would apply here as the lesions come up differently.

> Herpes viruses are not partly made of proteins? As different as they

Yes they are made of proteins partly, but not the same ones....the immune
system basically doesn't react to single amino acids. It sees a short
specific strand in the context of a molecule called the MHC. This is how
the system generates specific responses despite the fact there are only 20
odd amino acids to make the the thousands of proteins about.

You can get superantigen effects where you bypass that system, for
instance with bacterial LPS but thats is for different organisms and
easily gets ut of control moving from strong stimulatio of everything in
the area to toxic shock

Tim
--
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
ICQ: 5178568
Perl Molson - 01 Jun 2005 19:17 GMT
Thanks for your thoughts, Tim.
I've found this article about MHC (part of it is below the page).
My initial ideea was that, the B cells, as seen below,
would be sort of unable to reach the viruses due to the
already damaged paths they usually require to follow, in order to get
to a
point in our body. It's like a polar bear that would try to get to a
group of seals, from a kilometer apart, when the ice would have breaken
in the middle.
By the time the polar bear gets to the remaining seals by swimming
through the
water, some of the seals are hiding somewhere else.

Can actually the B cells penetrate any part of the skin/mucosa even
when it has been badly affected by the viruses?
There are viruses localized behind those damaged areas that
would continue their job due to this very reason: the B cells cannot
reach them before the skin continues to get to a point where the damage
caused by the scars and such, will become hard to heal (as 10 days as
usually it requires without the help of antivirals).

It sounds like a race between the B cells and the viruses. The faster
the B cells get to them, the better for the skin.

Of course, all these speculations are on a very presumptive level.
I think that would be of interest to know.

Perl von Molson

Molecular biology of MHC proteins

The classical Mhc molecules (also referred to as HLA molecules in
humans) have a vital role in the complex immunological dialog that must
occur between T cells and other cells of the body. At maturity, Mhc
molecules are anchored in the cell membrane, where they display short
polypeptides to T cells, via the T cell receptors (TCRs). The
polypeptides may be "self," that is, originating from a protein created
by the organism itself, or they may be foreign, originating from
bacteria, viruses, pollen, etc. The overarching design of the MHC-TCR
interaction is that T cells should ignore self peptides while reacting
appropriately to the foreign peptides. Foreign peptides that provoke an
immune response are termed antigens.

Interestingly, the immune system has another, equally important method
to identify antigen: B cells with their membrane-bound antibodies, also
known as B cell receptors (BCRs). However, while the BCRs of B cells
can bind to antigens without much outside help, the TCRs of T cells
require "presentation" of the antigen: this is the job of Mhc. It is
important to realize that the vast majority of the time, Mhc are kept
busy presenting self-peptides, which the T cells should appropriately
ignore. A full-force immune response usually requires the activation of
B cells via BCRs and T cells via the Mhc-TCR interaction. This
duplicity creates a system of "checks and balances" and underscores the
immune system's potential for running amok and causing harm to the body
(see autoimmune disorders.)

All Mhc molecules receive polypeptides from inside the cells they are
part of and display them on the cell's exterior surface for recognition
by T cells. However, there are major differences between MHC class I
and II in the method and outcome of peptide presentation.

   * Mhc Class I molecules are found on almost every nucleated cell of
the body. Class I molecules are heterodimers, consisting of a single
transmembrane polypeptide chain (the a-chain) and a ß2 microglobulin
(which is encoded elsewhere, not in the MHC). The a chain has two
polymorphic domains, a1, a2, which present peptides derived from
cytosolic proteins to the immune system. The peptides are short,
consisting of 8-10 amino acid residues.

Because class I Mhc is loaded with proteins found in the cytosol, it is
the primary way for a virus-infected cell to signal to T cells. It
interacts exclusively with CD8+ T cells (also known as cytotoxic T cell
lymphocytes or CTLs). The fate of a virus-infected cell is almost
always apoptosis, or programmed cell death, initiated by the CD8+ T
cell. This response seems like "killing the messenger," but the
messenger in this case is virally infected and probably represents a
risk of contagion for neighboring cells.

   * Mhc Class II molecules are found only on a few specialized cell
types, including macrophages, dendritic cells, activated T cells, and B
cells, which may be referred to collectively as "antigen-presenting
cells" (APCs). Class II molecules are also heterodimers, but in this
case consist of two homologous peptides, an a and ß chain, both of
which are encoded in the MHC. The peptides presented by class II
molecules are derived from extracellular proteins (not cytosolic as in
class I). Loading of class II molecules must still occur inside the
cell; extracellular proteins are endocytosed, digested in lysosomes,
and bound by the class II MHC molecule prior to the molecule's
migration to the plasma membrane. The peptides are longer, generally
between 15-24 amino-acid residues.

Because class II Mhc is loaded with extracellular proteins, it is
mainly concerned with presentation of extracellular pathogens (for
example, bacteria that might be infecting a wound or the blood.) Class
II molecules interact exclusively with CD4+ T cells (also known as
helper T cell lymphocytes or HTLs). The helper T cells then help to
trigger an appropriate immune response which may include localized
inflammation and swelling due to recruitment of phagocytes or may lead
to a full-force antibody immune response due to activation of B cells.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_histocompatibility_complex

> > My ideea started from the hypothesis that,
> > viruses are causing several minuscule blisters that
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
> ICQ: 5178568
M.L.S. - 01 Jun 2005 20:36 GMT
>Thanks for your thoughts, Tim.
>I've found this article about MHC (part of it is below the page).
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>through the
>water, some of the seals are hiding somewhere else.

Well, all those polar bears need are some mosquitoes!!!

Problem solved.

Way to go, Perlie.

Mike
Perl Molson - 02 Jun 2005 08:48 GMT
> >Thanks for your thoughts, Tim.
> >I've found this article about MHC (part of it is below the page).
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Way to go, Perlie.

Thanks for your input, Mike!

Does the bug repellent for bears trigger herpes, what do you think?
Hey, we are going in a circle now.

You may want to consider starting a "Polar bear and penguin Social
Herpes Support Club".

Perl von Molson

> Mike
 
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