Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Herpes / December 2003
Hi -- I need help please!
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Philip - 01 Sep 2003 05:49 GMT Hi, I'm Philip. I'm new here, been watching for a few weeks.
First I'd like to say "thanks" that this group exists, as I've already learned a lot. It seems I know more about herpes than my doctor. It's really great to see folks lending support and providing information the way you guys do here.
Anyway, here's my brief story -- and a plea for help. About 13 weeks ago I think I was exposed to oral herpes. Ten days later my lower lip became really swollen, sensitive, red -- but no obvious lesions. I had the typical tingling, itching, etc. with a mild headache, and a slight feverish feeling (though my temp never measured over 98.5).
By the way, I waited till 12 weeks were up and was tested last week (IgG, ELISA); results shoud be in this week.
This all cleared up in about a week. Because of the lack of lesions, I cannot really say I have had another outbreak. Sometimes my bottom lip tingles and I put on some melissa oil and it goes away; no sores -- but sometimes I get a tiny red spot, like a pin-prick, which also goes away in a day or less. Could that tiny red spot be a herpes sore?
Two weeks go by and things are great -- then it hits me. I start having headaches again, worse this time, my eyes are overly sensitive to sunlight, feeling feverish a bit (but still, I check my temp throughout the day and nothing over 98.5). Also, some "weakness" in my left leg that comes and goes; and some pain around my left kidney area, but only when I press on it.
The worst part is the rash. It started on the center of my chest and on the insides of both elbows -- all at the same time. It's reddish and inflamed a bit; the skin appears to thicken. There are a lot of tiny bumps, a FEW seem to have "blister"-like tops like they could hold water. They are very tiny, never hurt, seem to almost go away without ever going through the typical herpes cycle. They itch like mad.
But they never bunch together in groups like I've read herpes blisters do. They are rather spread out. Here's my BIG QUESTION -- I know that during my primary outbreak (as mild as it was), I could have infected myself somewhere else, before my immunity had built up. But I have been VERY VERY careful about touching my lips and washing my hands, etc. What are the odds I could have spread this to BOTH arms and my chest?
I know a little about the ganglia. Type 1 herpes likes the trigeminal ganglia and type 2 likes the sacral. And I know that once the herpes virus settles into the ganglia it can re-emerge anywhere that that ganglia is connected to, like the boxer-shorts area for type 2.
QUESTION: What ganglia would herpes on the arm and chest be hiding in? Does the same ganglia serve BOTH the chest and the arms? If so, that might explain why this rash comes and goes on both arms and my chest. I'm having the second outbreak on the inside of my elbows and my upper chest right now -- so, whatever it is, is reoccurs.
I'm sorry for the length of this post -- I still have several questions. But, for now, does anybody please have any insight into this problem?
My doc's a bit skeptical about it all, seems to not have much experience with herpes, and thinks it's some kind of allergenic eczema on my arms and chest -- and not enough of a lesion to get a swab to test.
This rash is very troublesome. This second time around it's worse -- covering almost all my upper chest and more of my forearms. It started to clear on its own after a week, but has come back worse in the last two days. (The first rash cleared up completely after 2 weeks and I had 2 weeks of total clear skin befor this second round began.)
Can anybody help, please? Thanks so much!!!
Philip
arlyn - 01 Sep 2003 12:11 GMT Hi Philip,
I'm sorry you're having so much trouble.
This is my opinion:
Yes, you might well have contracted oral herpes. And what has been happening to your lip (red bump) could very well be herpes. However, it also sounds like an allergy.
Now, on to your torso. Have you ever had the chickenpox? I think that you contacted herpes orally and your body is having some trouble adjusting to it. So, with your lowered immune system, you developed shingles.
Or, it could be hives. Very itchy, very painful.
Have you changed your laundry detergent? Eaten some new foods? Had your thyroid checked? Taken a new vitamin or pill? Etc, etc.
Good luck.
ar
> Hi, I'm Philip. I'm new here, been watching for a few weeks. > [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > Philip Philip - 02 Sep 2003 19:44 GMT Hey Arlyn,
Thanks for the reply -- yes I've had the pox; nothing new such as detergent, new vitamins, etc. The doc ruled out shingles -- said they usually follow a nerve trail around the midsection, and are very painful -- this rash I have is painLESS but really itches. (The only pain is when I irritate it by scratching it too hard, which I'm trying to avoid.)
Anybody out there ever encountered such a widespread rash related to herpes? Any info on my suspicion that both the chest and the arms are connected to the same ganglia?
My test reults will be in I think tomorrow; I waited 12 weeks -- was that enough? If it comes back negative, can I be confident that I don't have herpes? Or should I be tested again in 3 months?
Thanks! Philip
> Hi Philip, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > arr arlyn - 03 Sep 2003 00:27 GMT Hi Philip,
Hmmm...well, my father's shingles showed up on the top of his head. So, I would doubt what your doctor said about that. However, that's neither here nor there.
12 weeks should be fine but if it comes back negative you might want to run another one just to make sure.
Take care, ar
> Hey Arlyn, > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > > > arr M.L.S. - 04 Sep 2003 04:45 GMT >Hey Arlyn,
>Thanks for the reply -- yes I've had the pox; nothing new such as >detergent, new vitamins, etc. >The doc ruled out shingles -- said they usually follow a nerve trail >around the midsection, and are very painful -- this rash I have is >painLESS but really itches. (The only pain is when I irritate it by >scratching it too hard, which I'm trying to avoid.)
>Anybody out there ever encountered such a widespread rash related to >herpes? Any info on my suspicion that both the chest and the arms are >connected to the same ganglia? Such herpes related rashes would usually have pain, I think.
And I'd think the upper chest might be connected with the arms, but I'm not sure about lower down.
There's some fairly in depth and technical info here:
http://www.bartleby.com/107/index.html#chap10
Maybe you can suss something out about where the ganglia are laid out there.
>My test reults will be in I think tomorrow; I waited 12 weeks -- was >that enough? If it comes back negative, can I be confident that I don't >have herpes? Or should I be tested again in 3 months? Twelve weeks is long enough in most cases. The thing is, if your symptoms keep recurring and you don't get good answers from your doctors, it would seem to me you'll have to keep trying to find the answers, even if it means retaking a test or two.
Best luck. I hope you find out what it is pronto and that it's something simple and easy to fix.
Mike
Tim Fitzmaurice - 04 Sep 2003 17:01 GMT > Hey Arlyn, > > Thanks for the reply -- yes I've had the pox; nothing new such as > detergent, new vitamins, etc. > The doc ruled out shingles -- said they usually follow a nerve trail > around the midsection, and are very painful -- this rash I have is Ruling something out because it is not classic/traditional presentation when it is a disease known to vary is a bit premature - sure he ruled it ourt rather than suggesting its low probability. Yes the classic prsentation is spreading out across a dermatome (area of skin getting its nerve supply from one origin) typically around the trunk but it can be elsewhere and it doesnt have to do a whole dermatome. Crossing over more than one dermatome is rarer....
> Anybody out there ever encountered such a widespread rash related to > herpes? Any info on my suspicion that both the chest and the arms are > connected to the same ganglia? I'd have to look up my dermatomes - not info i carry in my head Im afraid. Id assume as an initial thought that they came from different cervical or thoracic ganglia....
> My test reults will be in I think tomorrow; I waited 12 weeks -- was > that enough? If it comes back negative, can I be confident that I don't > have herpes? Or should I be tested again in 3 months? 12 weeks should be enough to be confident
Tim -- When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart ICQ: 5178568
mishaisacat - 04 Sep 2003 18:47 GMT I plugged "dermatome" into google's image search and got lots of graphics.
This one http://www.ohsu.edu/som-neurosurgery/neuropathicpain/sld102.htm shows in red exactly the various places where I may get the neuralgia from GH. Maybe you're rash is in the yellow or black/green area?
Searching "shingles" included http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/images/factsheets/shingles.gif, which shows common sites for shingles outbreaks (from http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/Mosby_factsheets/shingles.html)
toodles, mishaisaxxxcat
> > Hey Arlyn, > > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart > ICQ: 5178568 Philip - 09 Sep 2003 05:30 GMT Just wanted to give an update....first, a big THANKS to everyone who commented about my situation.
Second, my 12-week HSV test (for both type 1 and 2) was NEGATIVE.
I am so relieved...yet still skeptical. I still have tingling and itching on my lower lip at times with small pin-prick spots that come and go quickly. I still have this rash. I still have headaches and feverish feelings; my lymph nodes in my neck still swell at times. So, something's wrong.
I plan to re-test in a few weeks (24 weeks total from supposed exposure). Then I'll rest. I know that this test has a 4-5% margin of error for false negatives; and it's also true that some folks (about 1%) don't produce antibodies for up to 6 months. The odds are clearly in my favor, but still, I'll retest.
The rash remains a mystery; doc says it could just be stress-induced eczema -- as I have been very uptight (that is a gross understatement) about this whole thing. (I'm a real type A person.) I suspect now that it might be fungal.
Anyway, as for the ganglia/dermatome idea -- I did some investigating, and it turns out that the upper chest and outer side of the arms are on the same (cervical) dermotome. The mid chest and the inside of the arms share a thoracic dermatome. So, for this rash to be herpes, I would have had to autoinnoculate my self twice, on two different ganglia/dermotomes. Not impossible, but very improbable. Also, the way this rash comes on, it would mean that these two dermotomes were in some kind of sync -- which also makes this idea very unlikely.
Anyway, again thanks to all. For now I'll just try to treat this rash; build my health as best I can and investigate a few other possible causes -- and retest for HSV in a few weeks.
Philip
arlyn - 09 Sep 2003 10:40 GMT Hi Philip,
Retesting is an excellent idea because then you'll know for sure. Which test is your doctor running? Some are more accurate than others.
In the meantime, make your doctor do his job and give you some creams to try or take a sample of the skin and look at it under a microscope (or whatever it is they do) and make a diagnosis.
Take care and keep us informed.
ar
> Just wanted to give an update....first, a big THANKS to everyone who > commented about my situation. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Philip Philip - 10 Dec 2003 18:55 GMT Hi. Just wanted to give an update....had my 2nd HSV test done this week (6 months test) and it came back neg again. (Aso got an HIV test, also neg.) So, back to the drawing board on diagnosis. Doc thinks my symptoms are fungal. Anyway, thanks again so much to those who listened and were helpful. Philip
Angela - 10 Dec 2003 19:16 GMT Philip,
That's great news! I'm so glad to hear that you do not have herpes simplex.
Happy Holidays!!!
Angela :) www.yoshi2me.com
Grant - 11 Dec 2003 01:05 GMT Thanks for the update, Philip. Good luck to you.
ar
> Hi. Just wanted to give an update....had my 2nd HSV test done this week (6 months test) and it came back neg again. (Aso got an HIV test, > also neg.) So, back to the drawing board on diagnosis. Doc thinks my symptoms are fungal. Anyway, thanks again so much to those who listened > and were helpful. Philip M.L.S. - 03 Sep 2003 03:25 GMT >Hi, I'm Philip. I'm new here, been watching for a few weeks. Hi, Philip. Welcome, but sorry to hear of your troubles.
>First I'd like to say "thanks" that this group exists, as I've already >learned a lot. It seems I know more about herpes than my doctor. It's >really great to see folks lending support and providing information the >way you guys do here.
>Anyway, here's my brief story -- and a plea for help. About 13 weeks >ago I think I was exposed to oral herpes. Ten days later my lower lip >became really swollen, sensitive, red -- but no obvious lesions. I had >the typical tingling, itching, etc. with a mild headache, and a slight >feverish feeling (though my temp never measured over 98.5).
>By the way, I waited till 12 weeks were up and was tested last week >(IgG, ELISA); results shoud be in this week. That's good. I hope it's a negative, but oral herpes is pretty common.
>This all cleared up in about a week. Because of the lack of lesions, I >cannot really say I have had another outbreak. Sometimes my bottom lip >tingles and I put on some melissa oil and it goes away; no sores -- but >sometimes I get a tiny red spot, like a pin-prick, which also goes away >in a day or less. Could that tiny red spot be a herpes sore?
>Two weeks go by and things are great -- then it hits me. I start having >headaches again, worse this time, my eyes are overly sensitive to >sunlight, feeling feverish a bit (but still, I check my temp throughout >the day and nothing over 98.5). Also, some "weakness" in my left leg >that comes and goes; and some pain around my left kidney area, but only >when I press on it.
>The worst part is the rash. It started on the center of my chest and on >the insides of both elbows -- all at the same time. It's reddish and >inflamed a bit; the skin appears to thicken. There are a lot of tiny >bumps, a FEW seem to have "blister"-like tops like they could hold >water. They are very tiny, never hurt, seem to almost go away without >ever going through the typical herpes cycle. They itch like mad.
>But they never bunch together in groups like I've read herpes blisters >do. They are rather spread out. Here's my BIG QUESTION -- I know that >during my primary outbreak (as mild as it was), I could have infected >myself somewhere else, before my immunity had built up. But I have been >VERY VERY careful about touching my lips and washing my hands, etc. What >are the odds I could have spread this to BOTH arms and my chest? I'd think that Herpes simplex in the places you describe would be very rare. Do you participate in close contact sports, like wrestling or rugby? Herpes gladiatorum is one expression of the virus that I believe can show up in patches in places that ordinary simplex doesn't.
Gladiatorum link: http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/00001552.htm
But if so, I think it's the first we've ever heard of it around here.
More than anything it sounds like Shingles, the recurrence of Chicken Pox, or Herpes varicella zoster. The thing about Zoster is that it usually doesn't come and go. It comes, hangs around for a while, and then goes, and usually not until middle age or better in life.
>I know a little about the ganglia. Type 1 herpes likes the trigeminal >ganglia and type 2 likes the sacral. And I know that once the herpes >virus settles into the ganglia it can re-emerge anywhere that that >ganglia is connected to, like the boxer-shorts area for type 2.
>QUESTION: What ganglia would herpes on the arm and chest be hiding in? >Does the same ganglia serve BOTH the chest and the arms? If so, that >might explain why this rash comes and goes on both arms and my chest. >I'm having the second outbreak on the inside of my elbows and my upper >chest right now -- so, whatever it is, is reoccurs. Sorry, but I don't know much about which ganglia go where.
>I'm sorry for the length of this post -- I still have several questions. >But, for now, does anybody please have any insight into this problem?
>My doc's a bit skeptical about it all, seems to not have much experience >with herpes, and thinks it's some kind of allergenic eczema on my arms >and chest -- and not enough of a lesion to get a swab to test. I think I would get a recommendation for another doc. Yours sounds out of his league. A dermatologist might be good.
>This rash is very troublesome. This second time around it's worse -- >covering almost all my upper chest and more of my forearms. It started >to clear on its own after a week, but has come back worse in the last >two days. (The first rash cleared up completely after 2 weeks and I had >2 weeks of total clear skin befor this second round began.)
>Can anybody help, please? Thanks so much!!! Yeah, try another doctor soon, especially if you still have evidence of the rash on you. The sooner the better.
Take care,
Mike
Pete - 05 Sep 2003 21:35 GMT Hello Philip <b181469@mississippi.net>, on Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:49:37 -0600 you typed the following:
Welcome to the group.
Firstly, forget your doc. A suprisngly high number havent even a clue of all the correct symptons. Fortunley, from what you have said there I can assure you that you there is no way that could be herpes, and in this case your doc is probably right in that its just a allergenic eczema or some kind of rash.
Take care, Pete.
M.L.S. - 05 Sep 2003 22:34 GMT >Hello Philip <b181469@mississippi.net>, on Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:49:37 >-0600 you typed the following:
>Welcome to the group.
>Firstly, forget your doc. A suprisngly high number havent even a clue >of all the correct symptons.
>Fortunley, from what you have said there I can assure you that you >there is no way that could be herpes, and in this case your doc is >probably right in that its just a allergenic eczema or some kind of >rash.
>Take care, >Pete. More faulty advice from the troll Brad/Pete
Mike Soja
arlyn - 06 Sep 2003 01:22 GMT Pete,
Leave the diagnoses to the doctors.
ar
> Hello Philip <b181469@mississippi.net>, on Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:49:37 > -0600 you typed the following: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Take care, > Pete. Pete - 06 Sep 2003 13:07 GMT Hello "arlyn" <arlynsg@adelphia.net>, on Sat, 06 Sep 2003 00:22:25 GMT you typed the following:
>Pete, > >Leave the diagnoses to the doctors. > >ar Many doctors, are out-dated with their diagnosis of the correct symptons and sure some of them may take a blood test but the vast marjority do not. However, I myself was recently infected with herpes and I have looked up all the current information for symptons. True, with this information its not allways poissible to give a DEFINITE diganosis but many in cases it is, and I dont see the point in keeping people waiting to go and see there docotor when we could just let them know right now and save them the hassle and wait of finding out.
Pete.
arlyn - 06 Sep 2003 13:34 GMT Because, Pete, you DON'T know. I can't tell you how many people have come through here with symptoms that look like herpes but aren't. Or, people whose symptoms don't look like herpes but are.
We are here for support. And to give general information. We can also talk about our own personal experiences.
However, none of us here can diagnose whether or not someone has herpes based on what they write here on this newsgroup.
You telling someone that they don't have herpes is just as dangerous as one of those misinformed doctors. You don't know if they have herpes or not. You can't tell that without a blood test.
ar
> Hello "arlyn" <arlynsg@adelphia.net>, on Sat, 06 Sep 2003 00:22:25 GMT > you typed the following: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Pete. M.L.S. - 06 Sep 2003 17:08 GMT >Because, Pete, you DON'T know. I can't tell you how many people have come >through here with symptoms that look like herpes but aren't. Or, people >whose symptoms don't look like herpes but are. <snip>
Hi, Ar! Pete is an angry teen (and not too bright) from the UK or Western Europe. He's been trolling alt.support.depression.teens since late July, making threats against people who bristle at him, and indirectly showing himself to have more problems than anyone on that group.
I don't know if there is a logical connection in it all, but I suppose it's possible that he recently did find he has Herpes, is depressed about it, and is acting out in the only way he knows: with anger.
Or he could be just a troll.
In any event I'm fairly sure he'll not neglect to help us more fully get to know the special person he is inside. ;-)
How's the circus life?
Mike
arlyn - 06 Sep 2003 19:15 GMT "M.L.S." <msoja9@newsguy.com> wrote in message
> How's the circus life? > > Mike It has its ups and downs. :)
ar
M.L.S. - 06 Sep 2003 19:49 GMT >"M.L.S." <msoja9@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>> How's the circus life? Ah, so my post did get through. Still doesn't show here.
>It has its ups and downs. :) Have they let you up on the trapeze, yet?
Mike
arlyn - 06 Sep 2003 20:19 GMT No. I'm still shoveling the elephant poop. :)
ar
> >"M.L.S." <msoja9@newsguy.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Mike M.L.S. - 06 Sep 2003 15:19 GMT >Hello "arlyn" <arlynsg@adelphia.net>, on Sat, 06 Sep 2003 00:22:25 GMT >you typed the following: >>Pete,
>>Leave the diagnoses to the doctors.
>Many doctors, are out-dated with their diagnosis of the correct >symptons and sure some of them may take a blood test but the vast [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >people waiting to go and see there docotor when we could just let them >know right now and save them the hassle and wait of finding out.
>Pete. "Pete" or "Bradley" is a troll who is here to satisfy some perverse need of his own by spreading discouragement and negativity to those who might be susceptible to it.
You need to look up how to spell "symptons", "Pete".
And, "Pete", you've already spread enough misinformation to make it clear that you aren't qualified to let anyone know anything.
The reason no one here tries to diagnose people is that we can't. It is impossible. People who suspect they have herpes should see a professional, in person, and at the earliest opportunity, and then come here if they need support.
Mike
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