Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Herpes / June 2004
A very informative site
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Perl Molson - 14 Jun 2004 07:40 GMT http://www.med.sc.edu:85/virol/herpes.htm
M.L.S. - 14 Jun 2004 08:20 GMT >http://www.med.sc.edu:85/virol/herpes.htm "The viral membrane is quite fragile and a virus with a damaged envelope is not infectious (This means that the virus readily falls apart and so the virus can only be obtained by direct contact with mucosal surfaces or secretions of an infected person - it cannot be caught from toilet seats). Besides drying, the virus is also sensitive to acids, detergents and organic solvents as might be expected for an virus with a lipid envelope."
Some people might also like to know that the page Perl links to above, features a large number of pictures, albeit in thumbnail dimensions, showing wide ranges of herpes (not only simplex) symptoms.
Mike
Grant - 14 Jun 2004 10:16 GMT > "The viral membrane is quite fragile and a virus with a damaged > envelope is not infectious (This means that the virus readily falls [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sensitive to acids, detergents and organic solvents as might be > expected for an virus with a lipid envelope." Perl, doesn't this blow your whole toothbrush theory out of the water?
ar
Perl Molson - 14 Jun 2004 18:34 GMT > > "The viral membrane is quite fragile and a virus with a damaged > > envelope is not infectious (This means that the virus readily falls [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > ar No; where you see in here any mentions about toothbrushes?
It is probably need of only a few viruses out of many that will reach a toothbrush, to cause an infection.
The environment of the toothbrushes can offer lots of hiding places for those viruses.
But that's really not what I am focusing my attention right now. I have other unanwered questions such as, what is the role of the outside the ganglia situated viruses, in relationship with the traces of the viruses found in ganglia, in order for them traces of viruses to become active virions?
My guess is, whether in the absence of any viruses or virions outside the ganglia, can those traces become active virions?
I know it sounds hard to believe, but it actually might be true.
When first infected, the viruses will reach the ganglia; meanwhile, some viruses will remain on the OB area; furthermore, due to their singalling of some sort, these viruses situated on the OB areas, will trigger some viruses from the ganglia to become virions and some of them will travel to the location in the top of the spinal cord or CNS. (you can see in here the story, that I am talking about): http://www-ermm.cbcu.cam.ac.uk/99000381h.htm
From now on, there will be some viruses along the neural axons, (where they can form new viruses, too), also some viruses at the location I've just mentioned, that is the spinal cord of CNS.
My guess is, that for as long as there are viruses there in these 2 locations, those viruses can keep a constant flow of virions and formations of new virions in ganglia.
That is why, my pressumtion is that if we can eliminate all those viruses from the axons, the CNS and of course those from the assymtomatic shedding areas of the skin/mucosa (which is quite easy to do, with antiviral creams and other methods), then there will be left only some unable fragments, traces to become new virions.
Another explanation would be that, the viruses outside the ganglia, when travelling towards the ganglia, they can cause a local immunity weakness and thus, allow new virions to escape the ganglia.
As my theory goes, considering that local immunity that exists around the ganglia, in immediate vicinity of those fragments that want to become virions, there would be no possible way for that immunity to allow new virions to be formed.
Only an outside ganglia viral mechanism of disturbance of ganglia would be, in my opinion, possible. On the other hand, those viruses situated outside ganglia, they can't cause an OB themselves, either; they are only able to disturb that local immunity near the ganglia and thus, as I've said, allowing for new virions to be formed in ganglia.
There is this combined mechanism of external from ganglia viruses that will only contribute to allowing the new ganglia virions to be formed (of course, in large numbers, that will be able to overcome the further immunity that the viruses need to overcome in order to reach the skin/mucosa for an OB; there should be at least 2 different types if not more, of such immunity that the large number of viruses will require to overcome).
Let me recap, now, to make a long story short:
In a cronic infected person, there are some viruses found at the CNS, that is spinal cord, some viruses found inside the neurons; in both of these situations, the viruses are not capable of causing independently, an OB. The way the OB will take place, is, due to the local immunity problem, that is being caused by the viruses, that will return back to the ganglia, from these, at least one location: neuron or CNS.
With the local immunity at the ganglia weaken, now the large number of new formed viruses will be able to overcome all other immunity meed until the skin/mucosa.
To be even more clear in my explanation, imagine this scenario that I've seen in a documentary on tv.
A gang of bank robbers, I recall let call them herpes viruses; there were a group of prisoners inside a jail. Their friends, free at that moment, have helped those jailed men to escape. Thus, together, they'd started robbing banks and such.
Do you see my point? That is how I understand HSV, at the moment.
Perl Molson
M.L.S. - 14 Jun 2004 19:42 GMT >>M.L.S. posted:
>> > "The viral membrane is quite fragile and a virus with a damaged >> > envelope is not infectious (This means that the virus readily falls [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > sensitive to acids, detergents and organic solvents as might be >> > expected for an virus with a lipid envelope."
>> Perl, doesn't this blow your whole toothbrush theory out of the water? >No; where you see in here any mentions about toothbrushes? Almost all toothpastes incorporate some type of detergent as a foaming agent. As noted above, detergents are inimical to the herpes virus.
And here's a great link, Perl:
http://www.therabreath.com/toothpaste/index.html
(that ought to keep him busy for a while ;-)
>It is probably need of only a few viruses out of many that will >reach a toothbrush, to cause an infection. Where did you find that tid bit of information? Last I heard, no one knows how many viruses it takes to start a new infection, but the thought is that it takes more than a few.
>The environment of the toothbrushes can offer lots of >hiding places for those viruses. Toothbrushes also offer lots of surface area for virus-killing detergents.
>But that's really not what I am focusing my attention right now. >I have other unanwered questions such as, >what is the role of the outside the ganglia situated viruses, >in relationship with the traces of the viruses found in ganglia, >in order for them traces of viruses to become active virions? This is a support group, Perl. You are unlikely to find the secret to a cure for herpes in such a non-technical forum. It's highly unlikely you'll be able to tease a cure from ANY corner of Usenet, but I think it's more likely you'll have some luck in a scientific or medical forum.
>My guess is, whether in the absence of any viruses or virions outside >the ganglia, can those traces become active virions? Ya see, when someone asks a question here, we try to respond with a little sound advice. My advice to you, Perl, is to take your mangled English to a more appropriate scientific or medical forum and bother the people there with you inanities. See? Useful support.
>I know it sounds hard to believe, but it actually might be true. You offer a guess disguised as an illiterate question and theorize it might be true? Good luck. Have fun.
<snip>
And bye.
Mike
Perl Molson - 15 Jun 2004 05:38 GMT > > >>M.L.S. posted: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > (that ought to keep him busy for a while ;-) Not at all. Why would I want to read those things? I use different toothpaste.
> >It is probably need of only a few viruses out of many that will > >reach a toothbrush, to cause an infection. > > Where did you find that tid bit of information? Last I heard, no > one knows how many viruses it takes to start a new infection, but > the thought is that it takes more than a few. No buts!
> >The environment of the toothbrushes can offer lots of > >hiding places for those viruses. > > Toothbrushes also offer lots of surface area for virus-killing > detergents. Yes, but in our fast paste world, we can miss some spots in our rush, isn't it?
> >But that's really not what I am focusing my attention right now. > >I have other unanwered questions such as, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > but I think it's more likely you'll have some luck in a scientific > or medical forum. No thanks, I am OK in here. Considering the high numbers of unrelated topics, off topics, spam, etc I am actually doing pretty good, after all. Regarding the cure, I'll talk about it when I will get cured, OK?
> >My guess is, whether in the absence of any viruses or virions outside > >the ganglia, can those traces become active virions? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and bother the people there with you inanities. See? Useful > support. We have Tim in here, he is a pro'
> >I know it sounds hard to believe, but it actually might be true. > > You offer a guess disguised as an illiterate question and theorize > it might be true? Good luck. Have fun. I'm sure you are doing well with reading my posts. They are all right. A little misspelling here and there, that's all. No biggy...
> <snip> Don't snip me!
Perl Molson
> And bye. > > Mike M.L.S. - 15 Jun 2004 13:05 GMT >> And here's a great link, Perl:
>> http://www.therabreath.com/toothpaste/index.html
>> (that ought to keep him busy for a while ;-)
>Not at all. Why would I want to read those things? I use different toothpaste. For all you know, the ingredients in your "different toothpaste" are aggravating your herpes condition.
There must be a thousand or more toothpaste related links at the site above. I only had to read a couple to find that one of the most widely used ingredients in commercial toothpaste can be responsible for certain types of mouth ulcers.
Mike
Perl Molson - 17 Jun 2004 10:44 GMT > > >> And here's a great link, Perl: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Mike You might be right about the potential aggravating factors found in toothpaste but in my case they seem to not be a problem. Thanks anyway for pointing them out. If you have anything in particular that you see very common and that is bad for the HSV situation, feel free to add it in here.
I do not reckon any particular such substances. I know about artificial flavourings, colours and other that are bad for you. The chewing gum I use also has such artificial flavourings/colors in it but I did not find a natural kind.
Maybe you can recommend such a good chewing gum brand that would be cool.
Perl Molson
Gadge - 16 Jun 2004 22:35 GMT > > >>M.L.S. posted: > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Not at all. Why would I want to read those things? I use different toothpaste. Does your toothpaste contain sodium lauryl sulfate?
Pain Devine - 16 Jun 2004 22:56 GMT Hi Gadge!
Gadge - 16 Jun 2004 23:21 GMT > Hi Gadge! Hey there!
Pain Devine - 16 Jun 2004 23:31 GMT How was your day?
> > Hi Gadge! > > > Hey there! Gadge - 16 Jun 2004 23:38 GMT > How was your day? Good thanks
You?
Pain Devine - 16 Jun 2004 23:36 GMT I went and got icecream... but I got this fancy cone that tasted funny... so I threw it out and got a milkshake instead. The milkshake was much better. mmmm....
Gadge - 16 Jun 2004 23:43 GMT > I went and got icecream... but I got this fancy cone that tasted funny... so > I threw it out and got a milkshake instead. The milkshake was much better. > mmmm.... what flavour was it - the ice-cream?
(I'm sure everyone here is dying to know, hehe)
Pain Devine - 16 Jun 2004 23:41 GMT Chocolate!
You should get some icecream! It's good for you. Trust me!
Gadge - 16 Jun 2004 23:51 GMT > Chocolate! > > You should get some icecream! It's good for you. Trust me! Chocolate - my favourite!
mmmmmmmBen&Jerryschocolatefudgebrowniemmmmmmmmmmm
Pain Devine - 16 Jun 2004 23:54 GMT What kinda music do you like? I've recorded some stuff.
> > Chocolate! > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > mmmmmmmBen&Jerryschocolatefudgebrowniemmmmmmmmmmm Gadge - 17 Jun 2004 00:19 GMT > What kinda music do you like? I've recorded some stuff. music? all music!!! I gotta go now - need sleep!
ttfn
Pain Devine - 17 Jun 2004 00:19 GMT Yea, you english have night time way too soon. You need to fix that.
and music rocks! (well, most music does anyway)
> > What kinda music do you like? I've recorded some stuff. > > > music? all music!!! > I gotta go now - need sleep! > > ttfn Gadge - 17 Jun 2004 23:37 GMT > Yea, you english have night time way too soon. You need to fix that. > > and music rocks! (well, most music does anyway) Nah, we don't have night time too soon, you guys have it too late!
Pain Devine - 18 Jun 2004 00:44 GMT But it limits my "Gadge chat time" :-(
Perl Molson - 17 Jun 2004 10:38 GMT > > M.L.S. <msoja9@newsguy.com> wrote in message > news:<tjqrc057pngksdfh4bo1c94seo0jab3mob@4ax.com>... [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > > Does your toothpaste contain sodium lauryl sulfate? I am not sure, but I am not worried about it, really. The ones I use seem to be OK.
Perl Molson
Gadge - 17 Jun 2004 23:36 GMT > > > M.L.S. <msoja9@newsguy.com> wrote in message > > news:<tjqrc057pngksdfh4bo1c94seo0jab3mob@4ax.com>... [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > I am not sure, but I am not worried about it, really. > The ones I use seem to be OK. I understand that most toothpastes (inc. mine) contain sodium lauryl sulfate - that's the detergent (which will put paid to the herpes virus) and also provides the nice frothyness which people like so much. You also find it in things like shampoo and handwash...
-- G.
Perl Molson - 19 Jun 2004 00:12 GMT > > "Gadge" <GiGi@spam.net> wrote in message > news:<2jbsfpFv6g00U1@uni-berlin.de>... [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > also provides the nice frothyness which people like so much. You also find > it in things like shampoo and handwash... Thanks for sharing the info. I recall I was aware of this name but right now I have a lapsus. However, I find this fact of a less importance in the context that I try to understand how the virus works. What toothpastes am I using seem to be working pretty well, I am not going to pursue a further gain of knowledge in this particular field, considering others are prevailing right now. Prioritizing it's a good aspect, following my interest in understanding HSV. I have to reinforce preemtively too often my theories, before some folks in here "evildoers" try to clear them up. (you know, look at the poor Pain Devine he is paying 300 bucks a months, money that get into these folks' big pockets; and those latter folks love playing golf, you know...)
Perl Molson
Gadge - 21 Jun 2004 21:24 GMT > > > "Gadge" <GiGi@spam.net> wrote in message > > news:<2jbsfpFv6g00U1@uni-berlin.de>... <snip>
> > > > Does your toothpaste contain sodium lauryl sulfate? > > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I am not going to pursue a further gain of knowledge in this particular > field, considering others are prevailing right now. That's fine, you're looking at ways to elimate outbreaks, and the detergent in toothpaste isn't anything to do with that. However, it may reassure some that the herpes virus is unlikely to survive on anyone's toothbrush .
-- G.
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