Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Herpes / October 2003
Post herpetic Neuralgia/Neuropathy
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Godisus - 28 Sep 2003 01:55 GMT Hello, I may have posted a few times and lurked some. I have a serious probem and can't afford to see my therapist right now, so I'm going to go crazy if I don't talk about this and find out if other people are experiencing the same.
My doctors think I'm nuts, which makes my emotional state worse. I'm one smidgeon from giving up completly on Western Medicine and seeking a Chinese Herbalist, Acupuncture and nothing but Holistic Healing, Prayer and Meditation. I've had it with Doctors. Even though I only "came out" a few years ago, I've had the virus for 24 years. It makes absolutely no difference that I did not seek help sooner, they have NO answers. I do not wish to take suppresive therapy. After seeing three Dr's, including my OB/GYN whose test was negative, I finally got a positive for Herpes II from an Infectious Disease Specialist. Her nurse gave me the results over the phone, which was fine with me because, of course, I already knew, but the nurse said that, "She does not treat you for the symptoms unless you want Valtrex." I said, "What about my headaches, etc.?". She told me, "You have to see another Dr." for that. I was surprised, but I guess it's kind of like the Psychiatrist, he only gives you the Meds and spends minimal time talking to you. The counselor or therapists spends all her time talking things out, so again you have to pay two people. I can't tell you how much money my healthcare plan and I have spent on Doctor's in the last five years. It's incredible. Not to mention I had a couple of major surgeries; Resection of a benign tumor in my right temporal lobe 11-2001 and Hysterectomy in 6-2002.
After contracting genital herpes I have experienced symptoms Neuralgia/Neuropathy that are exactly identical to the symptoms for Post Herpetic Neuropathy. This has been going on for the last twenty plus years starting somewhat in this order and progressively getting more severe. Symptoms include numbness, tingling, crawling feeling, complete deadness, pain, severe pain, all sorts of shooting pains like being stuck with a pin everywhere there is a nerve, severe lower back pain, and there are more. This started in the arms and hands twenty something years ago. Now it is starting in my legs and there is a general numbness and coldness to the legs now when I sit on the couch. When this started I was having these dull muscle pains, like someone is poking you with a dull object, maybe the end of a thumb all over here and there all up and down my legs every so often.(This is what is going on in my legs, but it started the same way in my arms). This phase did not last too long until the numbness and tingling started and then it has progressed now the point that my arms are always asleep and I can't brush my teeth or blowdry my hair for more than five minutes. Yes, it's carpal tunnel, so the prelim reports say, but I'm convinced this has something to do with the HSV. I don't have any risk factors for Carpal, I've only been typing for three years and I'm not real fast. I've lived with this for years in my arms because I figured there was no cure, but now that it's in my legs, I'M freaking out. I looked up Neuropathy, PHN and all the symptoms for PHN fit EXACTLY although I never had shingles. Everything fits exactly to the T. I even have this head rush thing going on when I stand up which is symptom of neuropathy and something with the heart. I went to my neurosurgeon who says it is NOT likely PHN. He laughed at me, and this is a major research hospital. At least I thought they could think outside the box a little bit. My doc said concentrate on getting your whole body healthy instead of finding out WHAT it is because sometimes we never find the causes of these type things. He realizes I'm all upset about it, so I think that is GREAT advice for me, and I'm going to try to do that But what about all the other people that have it. Can't this be stopped or slowed down for herpes sufferers? He says that HSV II and shingles do not affect the same areas. I HAVE an appointment to see my neurologist and see what he says about the tests. We did an EMG, needle tests in all my muscles, but it seems like they did not find much. They said everything was pretty good. Prelim Dx is carpal tunnel. They only tested one side, but it's bilateral. I'll find out more when I see the Doc, but as of right now his next appointment is March! Trying to get in on a cancellation.
How many of you with HSV have any type of Neuralgia/Neuropathy; especially in the arms?
Thanks for listening. Godisus
Neuropathy forum http://www.healthboards.com/cgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Neuropa thy&number=90
http://www.neurologychannel.com/neuropathy/
I have one more link that had the specifics on PHN, but I'm still looking for that one.
mishaisacat - 28 Sep 2003 20:13 GMT I occasionally get some kind of herpetic neuralgia and it is very much like the PHN associated with shingles, but it's only in my genial parts, thighs, legs, and feet. I DO have carpel tunnel, officially undiagnosed, but lots of mousing around with the computer gets it going nuts. I've got tiger balm by my computer right now. Video games are the worst, but oh, how I love Mah Jong!
Anyway, if this is because of your herpes, doing stuff to help the herpes should also help this. When I expressed concern over whether or not my foot was contagious when I had herpetic neuralgia, the doctor didn't exactly laugh but explained that the activity of the virus in the nerve bundle at the base of my spine was probably causing some aggravation of the nerve that made me FEEL pain in my foot, but didn't mean that the virus was IN my foot, and I shouldn't worry about transmitting herpes with my feet. (I'm laughing out loud at myself right now.)
So think hard on what your triggers are. Would a reduction in nuts and other arginine-rich foods help? Caffeine avoidance? Stress relief? Yoga is sexy and cool and some people think that besides just relieving stress it helps with herpes. All I know is my body likes having all those muscles and NERVES stretched and relieved of pressure. Also helps with that carpel tunnel BS.
It's possible you have hsv in other areas, which might cause neuralgia elsewhere. Someone posted in the last month or so about neuralgia in the chest and arms, I think. The tread where we nerd out on the discussion of dermatomes and such.
And could it be possible you had herpes zoster (the chicken pox / shingles virus) and didn't know it?
Why not keep trying with the western meds AND try some alternative stuff too? One bird killed with two stones is a very dead bird.
All best, mishaisacat
> Hello, I may have posted a few times and lurked some. I have a serious > probem and can't afford to see my therapist right now, so I'm going to go [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > Neuropathy forum http://www.healthboards.com/cgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Neuropa
> thy&number=90 > > http://www.neurologychannel.com/neuropathy/ > > I have one more link that had the specifics on PHN, but I'm still looking > for that one. Godisus - 05 Oct 2003 17:48 GMT > I occasionally get some kind of herpetic neuralgia and it is very much like > the PHN associated with shingles, but it's only in my genial parts, thighs, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > All best, > mishaisacat I appreciate all of your answers, comments and suggestions. I have a lot to think about and will continue to look for help. Most of all this kind of discussion gives hope and inspiration when you feel like sh**. I will try to reply to the first four postings, please forgive me for not copying each question before the response. I can barely type or mouse as the numbness is severe in the mornings.
Most people are indicating that their neuropathy starts in the lower part of the body. This may have something to do with the fact that you can get Herpes II in the upper or lower part of your body. Maybe I have it in both places as I have the neuropathy starting in my legs now after the upper symptoms have been going on for quite some time. If affected by Herpes II in the genital area, the virus "lives" in the base of the spine, What bundle of nerves does the virus live in if you are affected by Herpes II above the waist? (Most people don't know you can have HSV II above the waist).
Caffeine and smoking is a BIG problem for me and I am trying to quit without much luck. Yoga is not real practical for me, but I plan to start walking if my back can stand the pain. I plan to try some remedies that I saw in a 10 page article about Neuropathy. Thiotic Acid (Alpha Lipoic) Borage Oil or Evening Primrose Oil (gamma linolinic acid). I'm sure I did not have Shingles, although the symptoms after contracting HSV were exactly the same. Huge "butterfly" type rash that lasted for years but was not painful, but somewhat itchy, and then the pain and numbness started in the arms. I had a thyroid test, actually a complete hormone test about 10 yrs ago and all was normal. Liver function was elevated last month at the OB/GYN visit so I was advised to tell my GP. GP did second test and said it was a little better than previous and will test again in one month. Hepatitis screen was negative.
About my Docs and treatment:
I am opposed to suppressive therapy because of a book I read by Dr. Andrew Weil. He is a true D.O. and not just a G.P. disguised as a D.O. if that makes sense to you. He was Harvard educated and then decided he did not want to practice medicine the way he was taught and looked for a better way. (You have to read it, I can't explain well). He states and shows a case study of a woman that had Scleroderma (symptoms are also similar somewhat to Neuropathy) showing that suppressive therapy does nothing more that push the disease back only to reappear in another area. He believes suppressive therapy is overused in our country and should be checked. Anyway, since I had this thing for so long, I figured the OB are not that bothersome, why the need to pay for yet one more medicine. I did not realize it might help the Neuropathy. AND I don't feel anything is wrong with Alternative Therapy, I love it. I just can not afford it. Insurance pays for Docs and clinics, but usually not for Chiros and Acupuncturists. I definitely want to try Acupuncture, though. I'm not opposed to using both types of therapy, I just happen to have the docs enlisted already for another problem. Since I had all these specialists at my disposal due to my recent surgery, and since this is a major research hospital, I had only hoped that they might have some answers. I did see my Neurologist last week and he will monitor the cessation of anti-seizure medication. He does not want to address the Neuropathy until that is completed. Basically, that leaves me in severe pain for another three months until I can speak to him again. Thanks, Godisus
Grant - 05 Oct 2003 17:54 GMT Hi Godisus,
Just one comment: a hormone test 10 years ago?? That was it? Quite honestly, your thyroid can change over night. Those test results are no longer valid.
I just don't think that your neuralgia is associated with herpes. Unless there is something else going on in your body that would then create such a severe reaction to the virus. By the way, my insurance did cover parts of my acupuncture and chiropractic. Granted, that was years ago and things have changed, but it doesn't hurt to give a call and find out what they cover.
You already know you have to give up the caffeine and cigarettes. More power to you - those are two difficult substances to give up.
Godisus, somewhere out there is an answer for you. I hope that you will find it soon.
ar
> > I occasionally get some kind of herpetic neuralgia and it is very much > like [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] > Thanks, > Godisus mishaisacat - 06 Oct 2003 15:42 GMT Hey, glad you're finding this a useful place!
Good luck with everything. If you can't quit cigs and caffeine, try to cut back. As for the yoga, it's a total myth that you already have to be healthy and in shape to do it. I suppose everyone could have their own definitions, but I think basically yoga is controlled stretching (or other movements) synced with breathing. Some of the stretches are very basic. The "standing half fold" is a lot like touching your toes. I do that everyday to open up the base of my spine, which tends to get pretty tight as I spend a lot of time on the 'puter or driving. My dad does floor stretches for his sciatic nerve (which he'd never in a million years call yoga, but I can't 'see' the difference). The big one that helps him the most - different cause, but similar problem, with similar things helping) - is to lie on his back with his feet straight and then to lift one leg pointed to the sky (as straight as possible, which might not even be close to straight) and then pull that leg towards the torso. He could barely walk when he started doing these because of the pain, and when he did them he was doing good to lift his leg enough to touch with his hands, nevermind trying to straighten the leg. Between all the chiropracting and getting epidurals for the pain and to loosen everything up, he says what helped him MOST were the simple stretching exercises.
All I know about Dr. Weil is that when I looked at one of his web page, I got entirely so much spam to buy unearthly expensive supplements that I'm tempted to think he wants to make money as much as or more than the next fellow.
I'm trying to think of other things I've done to relieve the pain. Arlyn's already mentioned ibuprofen. I love all kinds of topical creams. Right now I've got a mint oil spray that is delightful for sore muscles, but I'm also a fan of capsaicin cream, which, made from peppers, has a warming effect and relaxes surrounding muscles into opening up. You don't want to get any on your privates coz it really will burn down there, and it kind of reactivates upon contact with water, as in a shower, and can be a bit hot. There are also patches that have capsaicin and mint in them so that the effect is milder.
Have you tried MSM? It's a derivative of DMSO that doesn't stink or carry unwanted things all through the body. (You can look up both on google.) It's the main ingredient, I believe, in that those blue, emu-oil type gels things for pain. Supposed to be amazing.
Many wishes for much relief, mishaisacat
> > I occasionally get some kind of herpetic neuralgia and it is very much > like [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] > Thanks, > Godisus Grant - 29 Sep 2003 02:25 GMT When was the last time you had your thyroid checked? The problems you've been having in your arms sound a lot like what was going on with me when my liver was out of whack and not allowing my thyroid med to get to the organs. Acupuncture cured me of it - Western Doctors refused to treat me.
I take ibuprofin for the pain and it really does work. (I have severe neuralgia in my legs).
I highly recommend finding an acupuncturist and you may want to find a good chiropractor, as well. Not the kind that just cracks necks, though. I don't have much faith in them. But there are other schools of chiropractic that are gentler and more effective (imho).
Take care, ar
> Hello, I may have posted a few times and lurked some. I have a serious > probem and can't afford to see my therapist right now, so I'm going to go [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > Neuropathy forum http://www.healthboards.com/cgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Neuropa
> thy&number=90 > > http://www.neurologychannel.com/neuropathy/ > > I have one more link that had the specifics on PHN, but I'm still looking > for that one. Guy - 02 Oct 2003 01:58 GMT > Hello, I may have posted a few times and lurked some. I have a serious > probem and can't afford to see my therapist right now, so I'm going to go [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > difference that I did not seek help sooner, they have NO answers. I do not > wish to take suppresive therapy. <snip>
Well, this is where it stops making sense to me.
I heartily agree that sometimes western med type docs don't know their stuff. However, if western med has a possible solution (and suppression, for many many people is much MORE than a "possible" solution), and you refuse to consider it, then whatcha want out of ANY western med type doc, eh?
I can't say what is causing all your problems, but if taking a small suppressive dose of one of the prescription antivirals each day could reduce your symptoms, then it's illogical, to me, that you wouldn't even consider it. But hey...that's just me. Have you tried suppression to see if it would help? Have a bad reaction?
Just reading your post, it seems to indicate there's something wrong with "seeking a Chinese Herbalist, Acupuncture and nothing but Holistic Healing, Prayer and Meditation". Why have you saved that as a last resort after "giving up completly on Western Medicine"? I think the 2 (actually, *many*) methods can compliment each other, possibly. Why wait till you give up on one method to try another if the first one wasn't living up to your expectations? Just...switch. Or add in whatever in whatever way you need to go to take care of YOU. That's the important thing.
I like mishaisacat's ideas about the foods you're eating causing a ruckus. Gives you some other areas to experiment with, if you ask me. 'Course...you didn't. So, I'll shut up now.
Hang in -G
jen - 02 Oct 2003 16:03 GMT Hey, well i just got diagnost about 3 weeks ago with herp2. I had no idea what it was seeing that i had only been with two people in my life and i always used condoms... i thought to my self i CAN'T have herpes.... boy was i wrong.. anyways.. i get that pain sooo bad, almost exactlt how you described it... sharp pain theat starts from my shoulders,, almost a numb feeling. then i get shoots of pain ip and down my legs, if i sit on the toilet HOLYYYYY sh.t its so painfull,, it feels like it is sooo much more intense cold like i am sitting on a block of ice.. i had the pains so bad once i remember layiing in bed with my boyfriend and actiually jumping,, ( kind of like when you are starting to fall asleep and you daydream about faling off your bed or a cliff or something than you jump in startle.. like that it lasted all night every 5 min. i would get this shooting pain in my leg that would hurt so bad my whole body would jump. FREAKED me the fu$% out..but that seemes to get worse in the winter time.. i don't really have neur. problems in the summer. since winter is coming agin i am dreading it.. i think what triggers my outbreaks is wheni have sex.. i have been avoiding it cause i don't wanna be in pain.. it suxx so bad.. mmy boyfriend doesn't have it.. which is pretty hard cause we have to be carefull. but he is very understanding. i am not as freaked out about it as i was befpre, i have been reading alot on this post webite.. (thanks all for helping out with questions)... so anyways all i do to calm the pains down is soak in a hot bath tub or take a shower.. i think anything with heat helps.. a heat pack on your legs or arms..
> Hello, I may have posted a few times and lurked some. I have a serious > probem and can't afford to see my therapist right now, so I'm going to go [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > I have one more link that had the specifics on PHN, but I'm still looking > for that one. Grant - 03 Oct 2003 00:00 GMT Hi Jen,
Yes, sex can be a trigger. Make sure you are using a good lubricant - it might help. Also, for the pain, have you tried plain old ibuprofin? It works for me.
ar
> Hey, well i just got diagnost about 3 weeks ago with herp2. I had no > idea what it was seeing that i had only been with two people in my [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > > > > Neuropathy forum http://www.healthboards.com/cgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Neuropa
> > thy&number=90 > > > > http://www.neurologychannel.com/neuropathy/ > > > > I have one more link that had the specifics on PHN, but I'm still looking > > for that one.
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