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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Herpes / October 2003

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Post herpetic Neuralgia/Neuropathy

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Godisus - 28 Sep 2003 01:55 GMT
Hello, I may have posted a few times and lurked some.  I have a serious
probem and can't afford to see my therapist right now, so I'm going to go
crazy if I don't talk about this and find out if other people are
experiencing the same.

My doctors think I'm nuts, which makes my emotional state worse.  I'm one
smidgeon from giving up completly on Western Medicine and seeking a Chinese
Herbalist, Acupuncture and nothing but Holistic Healing, Prayer and
Meditation.  I've had it with Doctors.  Even though I only "came out" a few
years ago, I've had the virus for 24 years.  It makes absolutely no
difference that I did not seek help sooner, they have NO answers.  I do not
wish to take suppresive therapy.  After seeing three Dr's, including my
OB/GYN whose test was negative, I finally got a positive for Herpes II from
an Infectious Disease Specialist.  Her nurse gave me the results over the
phone, which was fine with me because, of course, I already knew, but the
nurse said that, "She does not treat you for the symptoms unless you want
Valtrex." I said, "What about my headaches, etc.?".  She told me, "You have
to see another Dr." for that.  I was surprised, but I guess it's kind of
like the Psychiatrist, he only gives you the Meds and spends minimal time
talking to you.  The counselor or therapists spends all her time talking
things out, so again you have to pay two people.  I can't tell you how much
money my healthcare plan and I have spent on Doctor's in the last five
years.  It's incredible.  Not to mention I had a couple of major surgeries;
Resection of a benign tumor in my right temporal lobe 11-2001 and
Hysterectomy in 6-2002.

After contracting genital herpes I have experienced symptoms
Neuralgia/Neuropathy that are exactly identical to the symptoms for Post
Herpetic Neuropathy.  This has been going on for the last twenty plus years
starting somewhat in this order and progressively getting more severe.
Symptoms include numbness, tingling, crawling feeling, complete deadness,
pain, severe pain, all sorts of shooting pains like being stuck with a pin
everywhere there is a nerve, severe lower back pain, and there are more.
This started in the arms and hands twenty something years ago.  Now it is
starting in my legs and there is a general numbness and coldness to the legs
now when I sit on the couch.   When this started I was having these dull
muscle pains, like someone is poking you with a dull object, maybe the end
of a thumb all over here and there all up and down my legs every so
often.(This is what is going on in my legs, but it started the same way in
my arms).  This phase did not last too long until the numbness and tingling
started and then it has progressed now the point that my arms are always
asleep and I can't brush my teeth or blowdry my hair for more than five
minutes.  Yes, it's carpal tunnel, so the prelim reports say, but I'm
convinced this has something to do with the HSV.  I don't have any risk
factors for Carpal, I've only been typing for three years and I'm not real
fast.  I've lived with this for years in my arms because I figured there was
no cure, but now that it's in my legs, I'M freaking out.
  I looked up Neuropathy, PHN and all the symptoms for PHN fit EXACTLY
although I never had shingles.  Everything fits exactly to the T.  I even
have this head rush thing going on when I stand up which is symptom of
neuropathy and something with the heart.    I went to my neurosurgeon who
says it is NOT likely PHN.  He laughed at me, and this is a major research
hospital.  At least I thought they could think outside the box a little bit.
My doc said concentrate on getting your whole body healthy instead of
finding out WHAT it is because sometimes we never find the causes of these
type things.  He realizes I'm all upset about it, so I think that is GREAT
advice for me, and I'm going to try to do that   But what about all the
other people that have it.  Can't this be stopped or slowed down for herpes
sufferers?  He says that HSV II and shingles do not affect the same areas.
I HAVE an appointment to see my neurologist and see what he says about the
tests.  We did an EMG, needle tests in all my muscles, but it seems like
they did not find much.  They said everything was pretty good.  Prelim Dx is
carpal tunnel.  They only tested one side, but it's bilateral.  I'll find
out more when I see the Doc, but as of right now his next appointment is
March!  Trying to get in on a cancellation.

How many of you with HSV have any type of Neuralgia/Neuropathy; especially
in the arms?

Thanks for listening.
Godisus

Neuropathy forum
http://www.healthboards.com/cgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Neuropa
thy&number=90

http://www.neurologychannel.com/neuropathy/

I have one more link that had the specifics on PHN, but I'm still looking
for that one.
mishaisacat - 28 Sep 2003 20:13 GMT
I occasionally get some kind of herpetic neuralgia and it is very much like
the PHN associated with shingles, but it's only in my genial parts, thighs,
legs, and feet.  I DO have carpel tunnel, officially undiagnosed, but lots
of mousing around with the computer gets it going nuts.  I've got tiger balm
by my computer right now.  Video games are the worst, but oh, how I love Mah
Jong!

Anyway, if this is because of your herpes, doing stuff to help the herpes
should also help this.  When I expressed concern over whether or not my foot
was contagious when I had herpetic neuralgia, the doctor didn't exactly
laugh but explained that the activity of the virus in the nerve bundle at
the base of my spine was probably causing some aggravation of the nerve that
made me FEEL pain in my foot, but didn't mean that the virus was IN my foot,
and I shouldn't worry about transmitting herpes with my feet.  (I'm laughing
out loud at myself right now.)

So think hard on what your triggers are.  Would a reduction in nuts and
other arginine-rich foods help?  Caffeine avoidance? Stress relief?  Yoga is
sexy and cool and some people think that besides just relieving stress it
helps with herpes.  All I know is my body likes having all those muscles and
NERVES stretched and relieved of pressure.  Also helps with that carpel
tunnel BS.

It's possible you have hsv in other areas, which might cause neuralgia
elsewhere.  Someone posted in the last month or so about neuralgia in the
chest and arms, I think.  The tread where we nerd out on the discussion of
dermatomes and such.

And could it be possible you had herpes zoster (the chicken pox / shingles
virus) and didn't know it?

Why not keep trying with the western meds AND try some alternative stuff
too?  One bird killed with two stones is a very dead bird.

All best,
mishaisacat

> Hello, I may have posted a few times and lurked some.  I have a serious
> probem and can't afford to see my therapist right now, so I'm going to go
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>
> Neuropathy forum

http://www.healthboards.com/cgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Neuropa
> thy&number=90
>
> http://www.neurologychannel.com/neuropathy/
>
> I have one more link that had the specifics on PHN, but I'm still looking
> for that one.
Godisus - 05 Oct 2003 17:48 GMT
> I occasionally get some kind of herpetic neuralgia and it is very much like
> the PHN associated with shingles, but it's only in my genial parts, thighs,
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> All best,
> mishaisacat

I appreciate all of your answers, comments and suggestions.  I have a lot to
think about and will continue to look for help.  Most of all this kind of
discussion gives hope and inspiration when you feel like sh**.  I will try
to reply to the first four postings, please forgive me for not copying each
question before the response.  I can barely type or mouse as the numbness is
severe in the mornings.

Most people are indicating that their neuropathy starts in the lower part of
the body.  This may have something to do with the fact that you can get
Herpes II in the upper or lower part of your  body.  Maybe I have it in both
places as I have the neuropathy starting in my legs now after the upper
symptoms have been going on for quite some time.  If affected by Herpes II
in the genital area, the virus "lives" in the base of the spine, What bundle
of nerves does the virus live in if you are affected by Herpes II above the
waist?  (Most people don't know you can have HSV II above the waist).

Caffeine and smoking is a BIG problem for me and I am trying to quit without
much luck.
Yoga is not real practical for me, but I plan to start walking if my back
can stand the pain.
I plan to try some remedies that I saw in a 10 page article about
Neuropathy.
Thiotic Acid (Alpha Lipoic)
Borage Oil or Evening Primrose Oil (gamma linolinic acid).
I'm sure I did not have Shingles, although the symptoms after contracting
HSV were exactly the same.  Huge "butterfly" type rash that lasted for years
but was not painful, but somewhat itchy, and then the pain and numbness
started in the arms.
I had a thyroid test, actually a complete hormone test about 10 yrs ago and
all was normal.
Liver function was elevated last month at the OB/GYN visit so I was advised
to tell my GP.  GP did second test and said it was a little better than
previous and will test again in one month.  Hepatitis screen was negative.

About my Docs and treatment:

I am opposed to suppressive therapy because of a book I read by Dr. Andrew
Weil.  He is a true D.O. and not just a G.P. disguised as a D.O. if that
makes sense to you.  He was Harvard educated and then decided he did not
want to practice medicine the way he was taught and looked for a better way.
(You have to read it, I can't explain well).  He states and shows a case
study of a woman that had Scleroderma (symptoms are also similar somewhat to
Neuropathy) showing that suppressive therapy does nothing more that push the
disease back only to reappear in another area.  He believes suppressive
therapy is overused in our country and should be checked.  Anyway, since I
had this thing for so long, I figured the OB are not that bothersome, why
the need to pay for yet one more medicine.  I did not realize it might help
the Neuropathy.
AND
I don't feel anything is wrong with Alternative Therapy, I love it.  I just
can not afford it.  Insurance pays for Docs and clinics, but usually not for
Chiros and Acupuncturists.  I definitely want to try Acupuncture, though.
I'm not opposed to using both types of therapy, I just happen to have the
docs enlisted already for another problem.  Since I had all these
specialists at my disposal due to my recent surgery, and since this is a
major research hospital, I had only hoped that they might have some answers.
I did see my Neurologist last week and he will monitor the cessation of
anti-seizure medication.  He does not want to address the Neuropathy until
that is completed.
Basically, that leaves me in severe pain for another three months until I
can speak to him again.
Thanks,
Godisus
Grant - 05 Oct 2003 17:54 GMT
Hi Godisus,

Just one comment:  a hormone test 10 years ago??  That was it?  Quite
honestly, your thyroid can change over night.  Those test results are no
longer valid.

I just don't think that your neuralgia is associated with herpes.  Unless
there is something else going on in your body that would then create such a
severe reaction to the virus.    By the way, my insurance did cover parts of
my acupuncture and chiropractic.  Granted, that was years ago and things
have changed, but it doesn't hurt to give a call and find out what they
cover.

You already know you have to give up the caffeine and cigarettes.  More
power to you - those are two difficult substances to give up.

Godisus, somewhere out there is an answer for you.  I hope that you will
find it soon.

ar

> > I occasionally get some kind of herpetic neuralgia and it is very much
> like
[quoted text clipped - 106 lines]
> Thanks,
> Godisus
mishaisacat - 06 Oct 2003 15:42 GMT
Hey, glad you're finding this a useful place!

Good luck with everything.  If you can't quit cigs and caffeine, try to cut
back.  As for the yoga, it's a total myth that you already have to be
healthy and in shape to do it.  I suppose everyone could have their own
definitions, but I think basically yoga is controlled stretching (or other
movements) synced with breathing.  Some of the stretches are very basic.
The "standing half fold" is a lot like touching your toes.  I do that
everyday to open up the base of my spine, which tends to get pretty tight as
I spend a lot of time on the 'puter or driving.  My dad does floor stretches
for his sciatic nerve (which he'd never in a million years call yoga, but I
can't 'see' the difference).  The big one that helps him the most -
different cause, but similar problem, with similar things helping) - is to
lie on his back with his feet straight and then to lift one leg pointed to
the sky (as straight as possible, which might not even be close to straight)
and then pull that leg towards the torso.  He could barely walk when he
started doing these because of the pain, and when he did them he was doing
good to lift his leg enough to touch with his hands, nevermind trying to
straighten the leg.  Between all the chiropracting and getting epidurals for
the pain and to loosen everything up, he says what helped him MOST were the
simple stretching exercises.

All I know about Dr. Weil is that when I looked at one of his web page, I
got entirely so much spam to buy unearthly expensive supplements that I'm
tempted to think he wants to make money as much as or more than the next
fellow.

I'm trying to think of other things I've done to relieve the pain.  Arlyn's
already mentioned ibuprofen.  I love all kinds of topical creams.  Right now
I've got a mint oil spray that is delightful for sore muscles, but I'm also
a fan of capsaicin cream, which, made from peppers, has a warming effect and
relaxes surrounding muscles into opening up.  You don't want to get any on
your privates coz it really will burn down there, and it kind of reactivates
upon contact with water, as in a shower, and can be a bit hot.  There are
also patches that have capsaicin and mint in them so that the effect is
milder.

Have you tried MSM?  It's a derivative of DMSO that doesn't stink or carry
unwanted things all through the body.  (You can look up both on google.)
It's the main ingredient, I believe, in that those blue, emu-oil type gels
things for pain.  Supposed to be amazing.

Many wishes for much relief,
mishaisacat

> > I occasionally get some kind of herpetic neuralgia and it is very much
> like
[quoted text clipped - 106 lines]
> Thanks,
> Godisus
Grant - 29 Sep 2003 02:25 GMT
When was the last time you had your thyroid checked?  The problems you've
been having in your arms sound a lot like what was going on with me when my
liver was out of whack and not allowing my thyroid med to get to the organs.
Acupuncture cured me of it - Western Doctors refused to treat me.

I take ibuprofin for the pain and it really does work.  (I have severe
neuralgia in my legs).

I highly recommend finding an acupuncturist and you may want to find a good
chiropractor, as well.  Not the kind that just cracks necks, though.  I
don't have much faith in them.  But there are other schools of chiropractic
that are gentler and more effective (imho).

Take care,
ar

> Hello, I may have posted a few times and lurked some.  I have a serious
> probem and can't afford to see my therapist right now, so I'm going to go
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>
> Neuropathy forum

http://www.healthboards.com/cgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Neuropa
> thy&number=90
>
> http://www.neurologychannel.com/neuropathy/
>
> I have one more link that had the specifics on PHN, but I'm still looking
> for that one.
Guy - 02 Oct 2003 01:58 GMT
> Hello, I may have posted a few times and lurked some.  I have a serious
> probem and can't afford to see my therapist right now, so I'm going to go
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> difference that I did not seek help sooner, they have NO answers.  I do not
> wish to take suppresive therapy.
<snip>

Well, this is where it stops making sense to me.

I heartily agree that sometimes western med type docs don't know their
stuff.  However, if western med has a possible solution (and suppression,
for many many people is much MORE than a "possible" solution), and you
refuse to consider it, then whatcha want out of ANY western med type doc,
eh?

I can't say what is causing all your problems, but if taking a small
suppressive dose of one of the prescription antivirals each day could reduce
your symptoms, then it's illogical, to me, that you wouldn't even consider
it.  But hey...that's just me.  Have you tried suppression to see if it
would help?  Have a bad reaction?

Just reading your post, it seems to indicate there's something wrong with
"seeking a Chinese Herbalist, Acupuncture and nothing but Holistic Healing,
Prayer and Meditation".  Why have you saved that as a last resort after
"giving up completly on Western Medicine"?  I think the 2 (actually, *many*)
methods can compliment each other, possibly.  Why wait till you give up on
one method to try another if the first one wasn't living up to your
expectations? Just...switch.  Or add in whatever in whatever way you need to
go to take care of YOU.  That's the important thing.

I like mishaisacat's ideas about the foods you're eating causing a ruckus.
Gives you some other areas to experiment with, if you ask me.  'Course...you
didn't.  So, I'll shut up now.

Hang in
-G
jen - 02 Oct 2003 16:03 GMT
Hey, well i just got diagnost about 3 weeks ago with herp2. I had no
idea what it was seeing that i had only been with two people in my
life and i always used condoms... i thought to my self i CAN'T have
herpes.... boy was i wrong.. anyways.. i get that pain sooo bad,
almost exactlt how you described it... sharp pain theat starts from my
shoulders,, almost a numb feeling. then i get shoots of pain ip and
down my legs, if i sit on the toilet HOLYYYYY sh.t its so painfull,,
it feels like it is sooo much more intense cold like i am sitting on a
block of ice.. i had the pains so bad once i remember layiing in bed
with my boyfriend and actiually jumping,, ( kind of like when you are
starting to fall asleep and you daydream about faling  off your bed or
a cliff or something than you jump in startle.. like that it lasted
all night every 5 min. i would get this shooting pain in my leg that
would hurt so bad my whole body would jump. FREAKED me the fu$%
out..but that seemes to get worse in the winter time.. i don't really
have neur. problems in the summer. since winter is coming agin i am
dreading it.. i think what triggers my outbreaks is wheni have sex.. i
have been avoiding it cause i don't wanna be in pain.. it suxx so
bad.. mmy boyfriend doesn't have it.. which is pretty hard cause we
have to be carefull. but he is very understanding. i am not as freaked
out about it as i was befpre, i have been reading alot on this post
webite.. (thanks all for helping out with questions)... so anyways all
i do to calm the pains down is soak in a hot bath tub or take a
shower.. i think anything with heat helps.. a heat pack on your legs
or arms..

> Hello, I may have posted a few times and lurked some.  I have a serious
> probem and can't afford to see my therapist right now, so I'm going to go
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
> I have one more link that had the specifics on PHN, but I'm still looking
> for that one.
Grant - 03 Oct 2003 00:00 GMT
Hi Jen,

Yes, sex can be a trigger.  Make sure you are using a good lubricant - it
might help.  Also, for the pain, have you tried plain old ibuprofin?  It
works for me.

ar

> Hey, well i just got diagnost about 3 weeks ago with herp2. I had no
> idea what it was seeing that i had only been with two people in my
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
> >
> > Neuropathy forum

http://www.healthboards.com/cgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Neuropa
> > thy&number=90
> >
> > http://www.neurologychannel.com/neuropathy/
> >
> > I have one more link that had the specifics on PHN, but I'm still looking
> > for that one.
 
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