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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Herpes / July 2006how do I ask this?
Suppose back in 1980 when my Dr told me I had Herpes by his visual test, I assumed type2. why, hmmm mainly because I had not indulged in oral sex. I did not give or receive. so some of you are saying that the man who gave it to me who didnt know he had it until days after we had sex, could have had type 1?, but isnt type 1 mainly on the mouth and face? He told me he had the sores on his penis. Are you saying another woman in his past could have had type 1 and gave him oral sex and maybe that is why I have type 1 too? How much does it cost in cash for a specific type blood test? I do not have health insurance. ALH Hi, Yes. Because of oral sex, many of us have genital type 1 herpes. And then we can pass THAT on to others. Now, it is difficult to pass genital type 1 to someone else's genitals, but it can still happen. I paid for my Western Blot blood test out of pocket. I think it was about $65. But that was a few years ago and I can't remember, exactly. The blood draw was $30 and my insurance paid for that. However, you might be able to save some money by using one of the other herpes blood tests. The best thing to do is talk to your doctor and see what he recommends. ar > Suppose back in 1980 when my Dr told me I had Herpes by his visual test, > I assumed type2. why, hmmm mainly because I had not indulged in oral sex. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > have health insurance. > ALH >some of you are saying that the man who gave it to me who didnt know he >had it until days after we had sex, could have had type 1? It's possible. Not probable, but possible. >isnt type >1 mainly on the mouth and face? Yes, but approx 33% of new genital infections these days are type 1. Not sure the rate in 1980 but it was possible back then too. >Are you saying another woman in his past could have had type 1 and gave >him oral sex and maybe that is why I have type 1 too? That's one of several possibilities. Frankly, type 2 is a greater possibility but without a test you can't know for sure. >How much does it cost in cash for a specific type blood test? Different tests are different prices. Healthcare USA has one for $100. Go here: http://www.healthcheckusa.com/ .... click on "Order a Test", On the next page click on "Sexual Health" and on the drop down menu, click on "HerpeSelect Herpes Simplex Virus 1&2 IgG" Be sure you click on the IgG test and NOT the IgM test. M2 > Different tests are different prices. Healthcare USA has one for $100. > Go here: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > M2 I was looking at that test on the site link above. I was wondering if the HerpeSelect is almost as accurate to the Western Blot and also does the HerpeSelect have the decimal read out that shows the actual amount of IgG antibodies, like IgG 1.85 etc? Do you also know what the turn around time is from the time the blood draw is done to the time you get the results in the mail? I guess you stil have to go to your own local lab and they send in the blood or do you send in the blood yourself? I'm thinking of checking my results again to see if my IgG antibody levels have changed at all from when I had it done a year ago. I know the IgM is worthless unless its within 10 days of infection and even at that not accurate. Thanks, Al ALH, I passed HSV-1 to my husband's genitals thru oral sex. At 45, I was ignorant of the fact that that could happen. It seems that when you have HSV-1 orally, no one gives you any information about how it can be spread. I just assumed, as so many uninformed people out there, that HSV-1 affected the mouth only. You can have types 1 & 2 in both places, although type 2 doesn't usually like the oral area. Those cases are much more rare. I just had my 3rd Herpes Select type-2 test done this week (awaiting results now). I used a website callled tstd.org. You can either order the test online with a credit card, or you can pay by cash. The counselors there are really informed, and really nice. I would recommend it. If you get a type-1 & type 2 Herpes Select test it will cost you $129.00. Type-2 by itself will be $89.00. I know I have type 1, but I am checking for type -2. The first test I had done at my doctor's office said I was positive for type-2. However, thanks to a few good friends (Eric, to name one) I was urged to retest. My first test came at the end of an oral HSV-1 outbreak. The 2nd test came back equivocal (neither neg. or pos.), so "third time's a charm" as they say...LOL I don't remember what type you have or where it's located, but I wish you the best with your testing. Michelle > Suppose back in 1980 when my Dr told me I had Herpes by his visual test, > I assumed type2. why, hmmm mainly because I had not indulged in oral sex. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > have health insurance. > ALH Ok, I have two things to add on this topic. Dr. H. H. Handsfield, a leader in herpes research who is also infectious disease physician put's it this way: HSV-1 is a sexually transmiSSIBLE disease and rarely if ever a sexually transmiTTED disease. Dr. H explained that genital HSV-1 shedding is "certainly rare, non-existant after a few years". In other words, genital hsv-1 can be acquired by hsv-1 naive people who come into contact with the virus, however due to very rare shedding, Dr. H seems to downplay the threat of genital to genital hsv-1 transmission as being very rare. Agree or disagree with him, I just wanted to share the facts he gives. Secondly, I personally asked my doctor about it. I told him the fact that I have hsv-1 somewhere, perhaps genitally, is really killing me. He told me "put it out of your mind". He just said, "when you have sex, you will use condoms for protection anyway". He said "it's just somewhere in your body". I don't know..just two doc's opinions on hsv-1. Hope it helps! ~Eric > Ok, I have two things to add on this topic. Dr. H. H. Handsfield, a > leader in herpes research who is also infectious disease physician > put's it this way: HSV-1 is a sexually transmiSSIBLE disease and rarely > if ever a sexually transmiTTED disease. When was the last time you opened up your Merriam Webster Dictionary? If you don't have one I suggest you purchase one because TRANSMITTED, TRANSMISSIBLE, and TRANSMITTABLE are ALL under the same entry. In other words... it all says this in my dictionary: TRANSMIT vb TRANSMITTED; TRANSMITTING 1. to transfer from one person or place to another: forward 2. to pass on by or as if by inheritance 3. to cause or allow to spread abroad or to another (~ a disease) 4. to cause (as light, electricity, or force) to pass through space or a medium 5. to send out (radio or television signals) SYN convey, communicate, impart - TRANSMISSIBLE adj - TRANSMITTABLE adj - TRANSMITTAL HSV stands for HERPES SIMPLEX VIRUS. Herpes Simplex Virus is a Sexually Transmitted Disease. If it makes you feel any better Eric then feel free to call it a Sexually Transmitted Infection. HSV-1 is HERPES. HSV-2 is HERPES. Both are Sexually Transmitted Diseases OR Sexually Transmitted Infections. People can catch HSV through kissing, sex, oral sex, and even on a mat during a friendly wrestling competition. (aka: herpes gladiatorum) It takes the active virus, at the right place (usually on the surface of the skin), and at the right time in order for somebody to contract it. Skin to skin contact is what usually does it... oh and I don't think it's ok for you to take Dr. H. H. Handsfield's words and twist them to suit your own personal agenda. For the record... he might be considered a "leader in herpes research" but that doesn't make everything he says that you've decided to twist... accurate. > Dr. H explained that genital > HSV-1 shedding is "certainly rare, non-existant after a few years". In [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > transmission as being very rare. Agree or disagree with him, I just > wanted to share the facts he gives. Genital Herpes Type-1 asymptomatic shedding is not as frequent as Genital Herpes Type-2 asymptomatic shedding. However, people that have outbreaks will and do shed before, during, and after their outbreak. Those that do not get genital herpes outbreaks quite as often do shed asymptomatically and nobody (not even Dr. H) can say on which day they are shedding the virus. If you would like people to read the facts that Dr. H H gives then perhaps it would do you some good to share a link as to where people can go to pay to ask the good doctor a question instead of attempting to speak for him. > Secondly, I personally asked my doctor about it. > I told him the fact > that I have hsv-1 somewhere, perhaps genitally, is really killing me. > He told me "put it out of your mind". He just said, "when you have sex, > you will use condoms for protection anyway". He said "it's just > somewhere in your body". He said that your Herpes was just "somewhere in your body" ??? Which medical school did he graduate from ??? lol These days it's the people that do not have degrees that probably know more than those that do. I still can not wrap myself around the fact that you are going to be (or want to be) a medical professional. I feel sorry for people that can not seem to find decent medical care these days... and we wonder why that is at times. :: sigh :: > I don't know..just two doc's opinions on hsv-1. Hope it helps! > > ~Eric Yeah ~ WHATEVER you say Eric. LMAO :) Well, Angela beat me to the dictionary. I was going to look up transmissible this morning but ran out of time. Here's what Websters has to say: Transmissible--adj. able to be transmitted. Personally, I fail to see the difference between the two words. Unless, this Dr. HH Handsfield is trying to say you can get HSV 1 anytime, any place, any where; and HSV 2 is only transmitted sexually. Though, that's not quite true, either. ar > Well, Angela beat me to the dictionary. I was going to look up > transmissible this morning but ran out of time. Here's what Websters has to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Personally, I fail to see the difference between the two words. Unless, The difference is subtle but would indicate to me that HSV2 is passed in the main by sexual transmission and that HSV1 can go that route but usually isnt. Its quite a good distinction so far as language goes. Tim -- When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart ICQ: 5178568 > When was the last time you opened up your Merriam Webster Dictionary? If you > don't have one I suggest you purchase one because TRANSMITTED, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > SYN convey, communicate, impart - TRANSMISSIBLE adj - TRANSMITTABLE adj - > TRANSMITTAL Angela, I will post the link to where he describes this. I think you are failing to see the nuanced difference here in words. By saying "sexually transmissible", the implication is that a person can get genital hsv-1 from oral sex. However, the point of not saying "sexually transmitted" is because genital-to-genital transmission is "very rare and after a few years non-existent" . I just read an article by H. H. Handsfield in Harrison's Internal Medicine. Dr. H is definitely a leader in herpes, and call him a quack if you want, I just wanted to throw out his opinion..that's all! > HSV stands for HERPES SIMPLEX VIRUS. Herpes Simplex Virus is a Sexually > Transmitted Disease. If it makes you feel any better Eric then feel free to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > research" but that doesn't make everything he says that you've decided to > twist... accurate. Angela, I'm not even going there and arguing with you again. Look at http://www.medhelp.org/forums/STD/messages/346.html under "C3" and you'll see I'm honestly not twisting anything. > Genital Herpes Type-1 asymptomatic shedding is not as frequent as Genital > Herpes Type-2 asymptomatic shedding. However, people that have outbreaks > will and do shed before, during, and after their outbreak. Those that do not > get genital herpes outbreaks quite as often do shed asymptomatically and > nobody (not even Dr. H) can say on which day they are shedding the virus. That's exactly what I said. I never said it doesn't happen..I said Dr. H downplays the threat. And you are free to disagree with his threat assessment and look to a doctor more aligned with your agenda. > If you would like people to read the facts that Dr. H H gives then perhaps > it would do you some good to share a link as to where people can go to pay > to ask the good doctor a question instead of attempting to speak for him. It's above. > He said that your Herpes was just "somewhere in your body" ??? Which medical > school did he graduate from ??? lol These days it's the people that do not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > decent medical care these days... and we wonder why that is at times. :: > sigh :: He graduated from a very prestigious medical school in PA and, get this, worked for a while at an STD clinic! He's got an M.D., just like Dr. H, so maybe you should take that under advisement before you start officiously attacking doctors whose advice you don't agree with. There you go, look up "officious" in your dictionary. Why can't you believe that I want to be a medical professional? Are you trying now to personally attack me because I relayed what Dr. H and my own doc said and I don't even necessarily agree with them about telling? You know I said I intend on telling future partners..so where does this little bit of nastiness come from? ~Eric >> When was the last time you opened up your Merriam Webster Dictionary? If >> you [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > transmitted" is because genital-to-genital transmission is "very rare > and after a few years non-existent" . So what are you trying to say Eric? Are you trying to say that oral sex is not sex? A sexually transmitted disease OR (for your sake) a sexually transmitted infection can happen when there is KISSING, ORAL SEX, ANAL SEX, or just PLAIN OL' SEX involved. Oh and even though genital-to-genital transmission of HERPES SIMPLEX TYPE-1 is rare doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. To say that something will eventually become non-existent is almost like telling somebody that has herpes that they no longer have the virus and that it's no longer possible for somebody to contract herpes from them at all. > I just read an article by H. H. > Handsfield in Harrison's Internal Medicine. Dr. H is definitely a > leader in herpes, and call him a quack if you want, I just wanted to > throw out his opinion..that's all! I the contrary Eric.. I do NOT believe that H. H. Handsfield is a quack. >> HSV stands for HERPES SIMPLEX VIRUS. Herpes Simplex Virus is a Sexually >> Transmitted Disease. If it makes you feel any better Eric then feel free [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > H downplays the threat. And you are free to disagree with his threat > assessment and look to a doctor more aligned with your agenda. If you want to believe that YOUR herpes is non-existant that is totally up to you Eric. >> If you would like people to read the facts that Dr. H H gives then >> perhaps [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Dr. H, so maybe you should take that under advisement before you start > officiously attacking doctors whose advice you don't agree with. I wasn't talking about Dr. H. H. Handsfield OR do you even pay attention to what you are reading? You are also miss-quoting what was originally written because I do believe this is how the order of your original thread went... You do recall typing this... right: "Secondly, I personally asked my doctor about it. I told him the fact that I have hsv-1 somewhere, perhaps genitally, is really killing me. He told me "put it out of your mind". He just said, "when you have sex, you will use condoms for protection anyway". He said "it's just somewhere in your body". That's where I come in questioning which medical school "he" (your doctor) attended. > There > you go, look up "officious" in your dictionary. Why can't you believe > that I want to be a medical professional? Are you trying now to > personally attack me because I relayed what Dr. H and my own doc said > and I don't even necessarily agree with them about telling? You are still stuck on the whole telling issue? Gee Eric... I thought we had all moved on from that topic. I could have swore that we all agreed to disagree on that one. You believe it's not necessary to tell a potential partner that you have Herpes and the rest of us believe that it's a good thing to be honest with a potential partner and let them know about a herpes status. Oh but didn't you actually change your mind agreeing finally that talking about your herpes was the right thing to do? Apparently you must be having second thoughts again... Or perhaps you like the idea of "herpes experts" saying that it's ok not to mention your status to a potential partner or that somehow your herpes is non-existant over my herpes... hmmm. :: Angela rolls eyes :: > You know I > said I intend on telling future partners..so where does this little bit > of nastiness come from? If the shoe fits then you can bet I will put them on!!! (Or perhaps it's not necessary for me to even try?) Shall I throw you some tissue so you can wipe your eyes? Angela  Signature"By opening up to a partner and talking about an STD diagnosis you are showing that you respect and care about yourself as well as the other person." Herpes Help http://www.yoshi2me.com/index.html STD Message Board http://yoshi2me.com/phpbb/index.php Picking Up the Pieces http://yoshi2me.com/pup/index.html > > Angela, I will post the link to where he describes this. I think you > > are failing to see the nuanced difference here in words. By saying [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > that it's no longer possible for somebody to contract herpes from them at > all. Hi y'all! Well I have had genital herpes for about 11 years, and I know for a fact that during the first year I was infected I ended up infecting someone I was in a relationship with. I really would not want to find out if I can still infect someone now. I just started telling people and coming out of the closet in the last 2 years. Prior to that not even my family knew I had herpes. I just didnt want to believe it because it scared me. I was already a mess from giving someone herpes as it is. I have oral and genital herpes and hpv, so as difficult as meeting people is even without herpes, I still tell everyone that I have herpes and hpv. There is a good chance that I will never give anyone else herpes, because asymtomatic shedding lessens after time, but I never heard that it went away altogether. I still want someone to have a chance to make up their mind about whether or not they want to be with me. If I didnt tell someone, I would be taking their choice away from them, just as the person who gave me herpes did 11 years ago. Eric, I am wondering how long did this doctor say that you have to wait before shedding with HSV1 is gone? I would still think that shedding during an outbreak with HSV1 is still the same as it is with HSV2 in an outbreak. Ps. This prednisone sucks! I have a big cold sore on my bottom lip now. Tomorrows the last day of using it. Al Al, > Well I have had genital herpes for about 11 years, and I know for a > fact that during the first year I was infected I ended up infecting > someone I was in a relationship with. I'm sorry to hear that Al. During the first year, ob's and shedding are the most frequent, so it is certainly understandable how this could happen. > I really would not want to find > out if I can still infect someone now. I just started telling people > and coming out of the closet in the last 2 years. Prior to that not > even my family knew I had herpes. I just didnt want to believe it > because it scared me. It is a very scary thing until you learn enough about it and meet great, supportive folks, just like on here, who are willing you take the time to help out and explain things. Learning about it and talking about it definitely helps, wouldn't you agree? > I was already a mess from giving someone herpes as it is. I have oral > and genital herpes and hpv, so as difficult as meeting people is even > without herpes, I still tell everyone that I have herpes and hpv. I know you do and I believe that you are doing the right thing by telling them what you have. > There is a good chance that I will never give anyone else herpes, because > asymtomatic shedding lessens after time, but I never heard that it went > away altogether. It doesn't go away all together, it just recurs and sheds much less as time progresses. No matter which virus you have, shedding decreases with time. But another factor is the viral type and viral location, i.e. "is the virus in it's preferred spot". > I still want someone to have a chance to make up their > mind about whether or not they want to be with me. If I didnt tell > someone, I would be taking their choice away from them, just as the > person who gave me herpes did 11 years ago. I know. And I would add to any discussions the routine usage of condoms to protect you from getting worse and your partner from getting either of these nuisances from you. > Eric, I am wondering how long did this doctor say that you have to wait > before shedding with HSV1 is gone? I would still think that shedding > during an outbreak with HSV1 is still the same as it is with HSV2 in an > outbreak. My doctor told me "put it out of your head". I would say that shedding during an ob of ghsv-1 would be less than ghsv-2 because ghsv-1 rarely if ever recurs and when it does it is usually pretty darn mild from what I have gathered. I don't know, I think my doc downplayed the threat of hsv in general. He just emphasized condom usage really. > Ps. This prednisone sucks! I have a big cold sore on my bottom lip now. > Tomorrows the last day of using it. Al, prednisone and other corticosteroids, especially topical ones, are not supposed to be used during outbreaks because they can make it worse, perhaps call your doc or pharmacy and ask them about that. ~Eric > My doctor told me "put it out of your head". I would say that shedding > during an ob of ghsv-1 would be less than ghsv-2 because ghsv-1 rarely > if ever recurs and when it does it is usually pretty darn mild from > what I have gathered. I don't know, I think my doc downplayed the > threat of hsv in general. He just emphasized condom usage really. I am here to tell you that genital type 1 herpes does, indeed, recur and can be just as awful as type 2. Anyone who will tell you otherwise doesn't really know the truth. It's generalizations like the above that make it difficult for type 1s to get the same respect from type 2s. The truth is that there are so many variables concerning both type 1 and 2 that there really can be no generalizations. ar > I am here to tell you that genital type 1 herpes does, indeed, recur and can > be just as awful as type 2. Anyone who will tell you otherwise doesn't > really know the truth. I never said it didn't recur. Never, ever, ever..LOL. I have always said that people with hsv-1 don't realize that people with hsv-1 can suffer just as much as they do, perhaps worse. > It's generalizations like the above that make it difficult for type 1s to > get the same respect from type 2s. Ok, put yourself in the shoes of a doctor for one second. You have serious and/or life-threatening things like cancer, diabetes, on down the list. Comparatively, HSV ranks pretty darn low in their eyes because it is almost always nothing more than a nuisance. I don't think it is really wrong to generalize and say of all things, that something that the vast majority of the population has or will likely someday get which usually is nothing more destructive physically than being a nuisance should be given too much attention. In fact, most doctors are essentially dismissive of the virus except in rare cases. So no, I think most of the time docs are going to generalize and consider hsv nothing really more than a nuisance. > The truth is that there are so many variables concerning both type 1 and 2 > that there really can be no generalizations. Well, to a point yes. But there are also facts and statistics, both which reflect reality. The fact is most people have or will likely get hsv-1 someday and there isn't a whole heck of a lot that can be done to prevent exposure, unless you enter a convent..LOL. To a certain extent we are forced to generalize. We cannot sit around contemplating all of the different possibilities that can happen and try to account for every single variable our entire lives. We'd go crazy! LOL Dr. Handsfield says the same thing as my doctor, and this is good advice to me: "Bottom line: Put this out of your mind. You and I and the rest of majority of Americans who are infected (and the 90+% in some countries) are the more normal ones" (http://www.medhelp.org/forums/STD/messages/2811.html) ~Eric > Al, prednisone and other corticosteroids, especially topical ones, are > not supposed to be used during outbreaks because they can make it > worse, perhaps call your doc or pharmacy and ask them about that. > > ~Eric The prednisone I am taking right now is 10 mg tablet which I take once a day via mouth. I am taking it to widen the bronchial tubes. I have noticed an increase in my herpes activity both orally and genitally and a very annoying outbreak with incredible itching around the anal area and other lesions etc etc. Tomorrows the last day so I won't complain too much. I probably should have taken the valtrex, I just don't like taking all those medicines together. Al > So what are you trying to say Eric? Are you trying to say that oral sex is > not sex? Did I say that? No. I think you might be reading into what I said way too much. A sexually transmitted disease OR (for your sake) a sexually > transmitted infection can happen when there is KISSING, ORAL SEX, ANAL SEX, > or just PLAIN OL' SEX involved. Well if you want to use that definition of an STD, I guess you're going to have to include the common cold and heck, even the flu as STD's since they can most certainly be spread through kissing. You can use whatever definition suits you, I'm going to stick with the ones given by none other than Dr. H. H. Hunter in Harrison's Internal Medicine. > Oh and even though genital-to-genital > transmission of HERPES SIMPLEX TYPE-1 is rare doesn't mean that it doesn't > happen. To say that something will eventually become non-existent is almost > like telling somebody that has herpes that they no longer have the virus and > that it's no longer possible for somebody to contract herpes from them at > all. I know that! Again, did I say that "it never happens"? No. You are reading too far into what I have said. I simply said that Dr. Handsfield said genital hsv-1 shedding "is certainly rare and non-existent after a few years". Your argument is not with me, fight this one out with Dr. Handsfield. > I the contrary Eric.. I do NOT believe that H. H. Handsfield is a quack. Good..I don't either. I told you, even though I don't necessarily agree with his opinions on telling, I respect the excellent work and clinical research he has done on herpes. > If you want to believe that YOUR herpes is non-existant that is totally up > to you Eric. This is the 3rd time, Angela. Did I say my herpes is non-existent? No. I said Dr. H said, regarding shedding of genital hsv-1, that it is certainly rare if not non-existent after some time. Dr. Handsfield says this on http://www.medhelp.org/forums/STD/messages/1341.html in the second entry. > You are still stuck on the whole telling issue? Gee Eric... I thought we had > all moved on from that topic. I could have swore that we all agreed to > disagree on that one. You believe it's not necessary to tell a potential > partner that you have Herpes and the rest of us believe that it's a good > thing to be honest with a potential partner and let them know about a herpes > status. Again, you're wrong. I have said repeatedly that I will tell partners of my hsv-1 status. > Oh but didn't you actually change your mind agreeing finally that > talking about your herpes was the right thing to do? Now you remembered..LOL > Apparently you must be > having second thoughts again... Angela, this is 4. Did I say I was having second thoughts? No. I am just relaying to people on here what my doctor said and how it compares to what Dr. H said. > Shall I throw you some tissue so you can wipe your eyes? Shall I throw you some glasses so you can read what I am writing here? ~Eric >> Shall I throw you some tissue so you can wipe your eyes? > > Shall I throw you some glasses so you can read what I am writing here? > > ~Eric Okay, that was funny. :) ar > >> Shall I throw you some tissue so you can wipe your eyes? > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > ar Eric and Angela, you two are always fighting! Why? I laughed when I saw this last one between you two. My chest and rib cage is still very sore from all the previous coughing, so laughing isnt the best thing right now...but it was funny! "Eric" <ejk235@gmail.com> wrote in message > Well if you want to use that definition of an STD, I guess you're going > to have to include the common cold and heck, even the flu as STD's > since they can most certainly be spread through kissing. You can use > whatever definition suits you, I'm going to stick with the ones given > by none other than Dr. H. H. Hunter in Harrison's Internal Medicine. What are STDs? Sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) are diseases that are spread through sexual contact. If you have sex with someone who has an STD, you can get it too. STDs are among the most common diseases in the United States. About one in four Americans has an STD. How do you get STDs? STDs can be spread through vaginal, oral or anal sex. Some STDs can also be spread through any contact between the penis, vagina, mouth or anus - even if you don't have sexual intercourse. STDs can be spread from man to woman, woman to man, and woman to woman. some STDs, such as HIV, are also spread through sharing needles. It's hard to tell who has an STD because many people who are infected look and feel healthy. They may not even know they have an infection. But they can still pass the STD to you. Angela Signature"By opening up to a partner and talking about an STD diagnosis you are showing that you respect and care about yourself as well as the other person." Herpes Help http://www.yoshi2me.com/index.html STD Message Board http://yoshi2me.com/phpbb/index.php Picking Up the Pieces http://yoshi2me.com/pup/index.html >> Ok, I have two things to add on this topic. Dr. H. H. Handsfield, a >> leader in herpes research who is also infectious disease physician >> put's it this way: HSV-1 is a sexually transmiSSIBLE disease and rarely >> if ever a sexually transmiTTED disease. > > When was the last time you opened up your Merriam Webster Dictionary? I would rarely do that as a first option, nor would I necessarily go for the Oxford English in these circumstances. I'd head to a medical dictionary since they are dealing with the technical and jargon aspects fo the words. Picking out single words in a scientific/medical phrase often hits problems as a phrase is used as a whole with a slightly different meaning. If you want to go to base language details then transmitted is a harsh definite descriptor and so would come over to me that thats only way and -ible is much more a permissive adjective indicating other possibilities in whatever you are describing - think of the difference between 'an arrested man' and 'an arrestable man' for instance. IF you are trying to explain the differences between HSV1 and HSV2 this is frankly one of the better ways I have seen of trying to get over the point and if the guy cited wants to try and use the language to get the point over for better education so be it, when Im trying to get over very technical issues I often have to try and do the same to people until they get the idea seated. What I think is badly off is describing the frequency of sexual transmission of HSV1 as 'rarely', 1 in 3 new cases of genital herpes being HSV1 wouldnt fit my definition of rarely, it fits my definition of 'secondary route of transmission' or 'less common route' and I feel rarely gives the wrong impression here (again we are into the whole technical/non-technical divide which is a pig to get over since as a specialist you think in the technical definitions and the average person thinks in lay terms), but I couldnt be sure if that precise word is what the cited doc says explicitly or the original poster paraphrasing (another confounding issue in reporting of technical bits) As to the medical dictionary definitions, my older copy of Dorlands (27th) offers two options for an STD one that it is only transmitted by that route and one that includes diseases that can go other routes - the list however does seem to include those where sexual is still the major route even if bloodborne or others can be an option, and it also specifies the clinical line of a disease being passed (the agent being secondary). Stedmans (28th) sticks it squarely in the clinical reference considering only diseases and only those infections that are caught sexually - in other words HSV2 caught from a sexual contact is an STD, HSV2 caught by another route it doesnt count...this is the clinical perspective after all. This shows a certain amount of variation in the technical viewpoint (not surprising after all the OED and Websters show variation in the same root language). Both show a distinct clinical slant as well, which is why STI is used by some people - its not a politically correct entity its designed to take into account the difference between disease and infection. The way I learnt it in my path lectures was that a disease or disease agent was considered an STD where the major route of infection for the entity in question was sexual which is slightly different again - other diseases that could go that route were sometimes described as sexually transmissible when it was less common....so essentially its not nailed down. So perspective plays a certain amount here, there is a certain amount of flexibility if you choose to focus on a specific aspect and its not a nice simple answer from Websters, its not even a nice simple answer for reference from medical dictionaries. I happen to think the difference has utility in explaining things...Ive used exactly that split in descriptor in the past myself to get the point over. Tim -- When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart ICQ: 5178568 > Ok, I have two things to add on this topic. Dr. H. H. Handsfield, a > leader in herpes research who is also infectious disease physician > put's it this way: HSV-1 is a sexually transmiSSIBLE disease and rarely > if ever a sexually transmiTTED disease. I have used the split between -ed and -ible before myself to get the point over to people...I think describing HSV1 as rarely if ever passing by the sexual route is not the best impression to give to non specialists...1 in 3 new genital infections as HSV1 doesnt fit that mold for me and the use of the word rarely to a non-specialist gives a very different impression as they will come from a different context. Tim -- When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart ICQ: 5178568 > I have used the split between -ed and -ible before myself to get the > point over to people...I think describing HSV1 as rarely if ever passing > by the sexual route is not the best impression to give to non > specialists...1 in 3 new genital infections as HSV1 doesnt fit that mold > for me and the use of the word rarely to a non-specialist gives a very > different impression as they will come from a different context. I wouldn't rip apart the words to much here. The point here is not to play semantics. The entire point is that genital hsv-1 shedding is "certainly rare and non-existent after a few years". Furthermore, as rare as genital hsv-1 shedding is, "genital-to-genital transmission is even rarer" according to Dr. H. All I am simply doing here is stating statistics as given by an expert in the herpes field. Make your own judgements about his diction. ~Eric > I wouldn't rip apart the words to much here. The point here is not to > play semantics. The entire point is that genital hsv-1 shedding is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > ~Eric Well lets just say that the stuff going on your thighs is not genital herpes and the HSV1 that you tested positive for is for oral herpes where you don't get cold sores, its still better to assume that you could have genital herpes because you have the herpes virus. If it were me, and I tested positive for HSV1 only I would still tell potential dates that I have genital herpes, that way you are covering yourself and they are allowed to make a choice. I get mild cold sores and I also have genital outbreaks, so I do tell people I have genital herpes. For all I know I could just have some weird skin condition on my inner thighs and genitals which is recurrent and not herpes, and just have it orally, because I never had the genital lesions swabbed, but I would rather consider it to be genital since it has all the symptoms and I was tested positive for it. I just tell potential dates I have genital herpes, and I don't appologize for having it either, herpes is not who I am, but part of who I am. Al > Well lets just say that the stuff going on your thighs is not genital > herpes and the HSV1 that you tested positive for is for oral herpes > where you don't get cold sores, its still better to assume that you > could have genital herpes because you have the herpes virus. Better for who? Dwelling on it certainly isn't better for me. Honestly, the redness and irritation have been around very frequently in like the past 3 weeks I'm truly doubtful of whether it actually was down there. I may never know where it really is at. > If it were me, and I tested positive for HSV1 only I would still tell potential > dates that I have genital herpes, that way you are covering yourself > and they are allowed to make a choice. Ok, you have lost me here, Al. Are you saying just because someone tests positive for hsv-1 they should assume it is genital? I hope not! LOL. I had feared it was genital because of a painful rash last summer, but that could have been caused by many other things. > I get mild cold sores and I also > have genital outbreaks, so I do tell people I have genital herpes. Al, Like I said before, I commend you for telling people..I really think it is doing the right thing to do! > For all I know I could just have some weird skin condition on my inner > thighs and genitals which is recurrent and not herpes, and just have it > orally, because I never had the genital lesions swabbed, but I would > rather consider it to be genital since it has all the symptoms and I > was tested positive for it. Tested positive for type-2 or type-1, or both? I would get a doctor's diagnosis before I assumed that I had a condition. Might be something for you to consider. > I just tell potential dates I have genital > herpes, and I don't appologize for having it either, herpes is not who > I am, but part of who I am. Now that's the spirit, Al! Herpes isn't even part of who you are. It's a nuisance skin condition that the vast majority of people test positive for. ~Eric Hi Al ~ I really like the fact that you realize that having herpes (no matter where it's located) doesn't define who you are as a person. There is something to be said for that and I am proud of you because you have come such a long way! :) If it were me and I had tested positive for HSV-1 but had never had an outbreak that I could see or feel orally OR genitally then I would pretty much tell my potential partner that I have tested positive for HSV-1 but I'm not really sure if I have it orally OR genitally. Statistically speaking it might be ok to say that I probably have oral herpes but since I can't really rule out genital herpes I would just tell them I'm not really sure where my herpes type-1 resides and just leave it at that. Now if it were me and I had tested positive and was a complete and total virgin meaning I had never participated in any type of sex to include oral sex... then I could probably assume (based on statistics) that my herpes type-1 was oral herpes... why? Because people can contract oral herpes via kissing. Angela :) Signature"By opening up to a partner and talking about an STD diagnosis you are showing that you respect and care about yourself as well as the other person." Herpes Help http://www.yoshi2me.com/index.html STD Message Board http://yoshi2me.com/phpbb/index.php Picking Up the Pieces http://yoshi2me.com/pup/index.html >> I wouldn't rip apart the words to much here. The point here is not to >> play semantics. The entire point is that genital hsv-1 shedding is [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Al > Hi Al ~ > > I really like the fact that you realize that having herpes (no matter where > it's located) doesn't define who you are as a person. There is something to > be said for that and I am proud of you because you have come such a long > way! :) Thank you :) > If it were me and I had tested positive for HSV-1 but had never had an > outbreak that I could see or feel orally OR genitally then I would pretty [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > rule out genital herpes I would just tell them I'm not really sure where my > herpes type-1 resides and just leave it at that. Well in my case I get genital outbreaks in the form of itching and tingling and some red bumps which are sore and then later dry up, so this looks like an outbreak to me knowing I already tested positive for it. I also get minor cold sores, but they are limited to 1-2 a year and not big clusters that take over the lips, just one small one maybe on the bottom lip edge. So I would warn someone that I have genital herpes and oral herpes I would think. Oh yeah, I got genital hpv also :( > Now if it were me and I had tested positive and was a complete and total > virgin meaning I had never > participated in any type of sex to include oral sex... then I could probably > assume (based on statistics) that my herpes type-1 was oral herpes... why? > Because people can contract oral herpes via kissing. So a person in this situation would be someone that has been tested positive for hsv1, is a virgin and may not have gotten cold sores, because you can have hsv1 and never get cold sores. I was actually reading that of the 65% of the population that has oral herpes, only 40% actually gets cold sores on a frequent, if at all basis. That means that 60% of the infected with hsv1 orally population is unaware they have it because they dont get cold sores. This means that 60% of the pop with oral hsv1 is spreading herpes to other peoples mouths and genitals. Al :) > Angela :) > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > > > Al To all the newly diagnosed following this thread looking for accurate information you might think about picking up a book called "Managing Herpes ~ How to Live and Love with a Chronic STD" by Charles Ebel and Anna Wald, M.D., M.P.H. This book is a handbook from the Herpes Resource Center of the American Social Health Association. I'm with Tim in that I believe describing HSV-1 as rarely if ever passing by the sexual route is not the best impression to give to non specialists... Hang in there, Angela Signature"By opening up to a partner and talking about an STD diagnosis you are showing that you respect and care about yourself as well as the other person." Herpes Help http://www.yoshi2me.com/index.html STD Message Board http://yoshi2me.com/phpbb/index.php Picking Up the Pieces http://yoshi2me.com/pup/index.html Eric noted what Tim said here: >> I have used the split between -ed and -ible before myself to get the >> point over to people...I think describing HSV1 as rarely if ever passing >> by the sexual route is not the best impression to give to non >> specialists...1 in 3 new genital infections as HSV1 doesnt fit that mold >> for me and the use of the word rarely to a non-specialist gives a very >> different impression as they will come from a different context. Eric responded with: > I wouldn't rip apart the words to much here. The point here is not to > play semantics. The entire point is that genital hsv-1 shedding is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > ~Eric > To all the newly diagnosed following this thread looking for accurate > information you might think about picking up a book called "Managing Herpes > ~ How to Live and Love with a Chronic STD" by Charles Ebel and Anna Wald, > M.D., M.P.H. This book is a handbook from the Herpes Resource Center of the > American Social Health Association. Oh my gosh, I agree with Angela on something! Anna Wald is Dr. Handsfield's colleague at U. Washington and is also an expert on herpes. Dr. Wald will be very knowledgable on the subject also. > I'm with Tim in that I believe describing HSV-1 as rarely if ever passing by > the sexual route is not the best impression to give to non specialists... Angela, I'm really going to throw you a pair of glasses so you can read what I'm writing on here..LMAO. I never said HSV-1 is rarely passed by the sexual route, even though that is indeed the truth. I said "genital hsv-1 shedding is certainly rare and over a few years non-existent" based on clinical studies and "genital-to-genital transmission is even rarer". ~Eric HSV-1 is passed via the sexual route all the time Eric. I also happen to know people that have genital herpes type-1 that do get outbreaks quite frequently. I also happen to know based on what I have read that asymptomatic shedding can happen before, during, and after an outbreak of genital herpes type-1. So if the people that I know that have genital herpes type-1 outbreaks are having them frequently then that must mean that asymptomatic shedding is probably going on a lot more than most people would think with their HSV-1. Even though genital to genital transmission of HSV-1 is not common doesn't mean that is will never happen. On the contrary... it does happen. Same thing with people that have oral herpes type-2. Even though oral herpes type-2 isn't common doesn't mean that it isn't possible. Now you can come back at me with "I never said this" and "I never said that" and "let me throw you a pair of glasses" and nobody is fooled by you one bit Eric. Angela :) Signature"By opening up to a partner and talking about an STD diagnosis you are showing that you respect and care about yourself as well as the other person." Herpes Help http://www.yoshi2me.com/index.html STD Message Board http://yoshi2me.com/phpbb/index.php Picking Up the Pieces http://yoshi2me.com/pup/index.html > Angela, I'm really going to throw you a pair of glasses so you can read > what I'm writing on here..LMAO. I never said HSV-1 is rarely passed by [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ~Eric > HSV-1 is passed via the sexual route all the time Eric. I was talking about one specific route, namely genital-to-genital. That is all I have ever mentioned so perhaps that is what you are totally missing here. > I also happen to > know people that have genital herpes type-1 that do get outbreaks quite > frequently. I also happen to know based on what I have read that > asymptomatic shedding can happen before, during, and after an outbreak of > genital herpes type-1. The distribution of genital hsv-1 recurrences is as follows: 40% never get another ob besides their primary, period. 50% get 1-2 ob's over 1-2 years and then nothing. Only about 10% or less get any more ob's ever in their life! I know asymptomatic shedding can happen before and after an ob. During an ob, it's just plain old shedding. This isn't news, Angela ;-) > So if the people that I know that have genital herpes > type-1 outbreaks are having them frequently then that must mean that > asymptomatic shedding is probably going on a lot more than most people would > think with their HSV-1. No, it means that you have met someone who is unlucky enough to be in the 10% of people who experience more than 1-2 ob's over the first 1-2 years. That's all. I believe the doctors who state that it is "certainly rare if not non-existent in a few years" regarding asympt. shedding. My own doctor said shedding happens "theoretically". I don't see why you are so uncomfortable with this fact. I think it's a very good thing, since the less asymptomatic shedding, the less risk of infecting a partner. > Even though genital to genital transmission of HSV-1 > is not common doesn't mean that is will never happen. On the contrary... it > does happen. Undoubtedly, is does. But there is probably more risk of seeing president Bush announce on Fox news that his penis is really a secret antenna to transmit anti-Semitic lesbian meatloaf recipes to soupy sales and Marvin Hamlish than there is getting hsv-1 from genital-to-genital transmission..LMAO. Had to borrow some of that from George Carlin, he is crazy :-) All it takes is common sense measures like using condoms and avoiding sex if there is an active lesion at the time, coupled with the fact that the majority of folks out there already have the virus. That said, I have already told you that I intend to tell people of my hsv-1 status because I will love and care about the person and not want to hurt them. > Same thing with people that have oral herpes type-2. Even > though oral herpes type-2 isn't common doesn't mean that it isn't possible. Of course it is possible. Have I ever said that folks cannot get hsv-2 orally? Hsv-2 just doesn't like the oral area one bit. > Now you can come back at me with "I never said this" and "I never said that" > and "let me throw you a pair of glasses" and nobody is fooled by you one bit > Eric. Angela, I'm going to say "I never said" because, indeed, I never said that and I don't mean what you are wrongly assuming that I do. People can read what Dr. Handsfield and Dr. Wald and other experts have to say and decide for themselves. There are going to be lots and lots, probably the large majority of doctors, who are going to say things that you aren't going to necessarily like. Doctors face a distinct problem: if they make "safe sex" unrealistic, people won't follow the really important needs to protect from the transmission of such things as HIV. Go ahead and tell a partner you are going to wear a condom for oral sex even though you not too long ago kissed him or her. This doesn't pass the laugh test. Doctors are afraid overemphasizing unrealistic practices runs the risk of eroding safe sex strategies people need to protect themselves from things much more serious than hsv-1. ~Eric Sounds like you have it all figured out Eric. Good for you. Hope you are having a very nice weekend. I know I am.. Angela :) Signature"By opening up to a partner and talking about an STD diagnosis you are showing that you respect and care about yourself as well as the other person." Herpes Help http://www.yoshi2me.com/index.html STD Message Board http://yoshi2me.com/phpbb/index.php Picking Up the Pieces http://yoshi2me.com/pup/index.html >> HSV-1 is passed via the sexual route all the time Eric. > [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > > ~Eric Angela, > Sounds like you have it all figured out Eric. I don't have anything really figured out :-)..LOL. And I hate arguing with you Angela, because I think you really are a good person who means very well and I think the work you do is commendable. I think on the issue of telling partners, you and the others who believe in full disclosure have it figured out because I honestly believe that if you love someone and don't want to hurt them, the only option is to tell them as much as you know, even if it is to your own detriment. But I think this is hard to accept! And I think you understand this, Angela. Perhaps even at one time you were in my position of struggling to accept doing the right thing because it's so hard. > Good for you. It's not too good for me, but it is getting better. But no more arguments, ok Angela? Please, tell me about the positive things and acceptance you have received. This will be more helpful than arguing over what are just different opinions, and I can totally respect your opinions. We both agree on the main thing, telling partners the truth. Like I said, you can remember yourself being in the struggling-to-accept position that I am. Perhaps maybe even Grant will have some telling stories about people with hsv-1, maybe you know of some? > Hope you are > having a very nice weekend. I know I am.. I'm glad to hear you're weekend is nice! It's like 78 degrees here and sunny, but there always is work to be done. ~Eric > what I'm writing on here..LMAO. I never said HSV-1 is rarely passed by > the sexual route, even though that is indeed the truth. I said "genital Actually you did - your original post had the following statement in it (attributed to the doc you mentioned) 'HSV-1 is a sexually transmiSSIBLE disease and rarely if ever a sexually transmiTTED disease.' Tim -- When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart ICQ: 5178568 Tim, > Actually you did - your original post had the following statement in it > (attributed to the doc you mentioned) > > 'HSV-1 is a sexually transmiSSIBLE disease and rarely > if ever a sexually transmiTTED disease.' I know and that caused a lot of confusion it seems. My point was only that genital shedding rarely if ever occurs with hsv-1, that's all. ~Eric > Tim, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I know and that caused a lot of confusion it seems. My point was only > that genital shedding rarely if ever occurs with hsv-1, that's all. It occurs at about 50% of the rate of HSV2 genital shedding. Source: Sacks SL, Griffiths PD, Corey L, Cohen C, Cunningham A, Dusheiko GM, Self S, Spruance S, Stanberry LR, Wald A, Whitley RJ. HSV shedding. Antiviral Res. 2004 Aug;63 Suppl 1:S19-26. Just take a look at the names in that paper....we are talking the giants of the field here, not mere experts. Now HSV2 runs at 2-8% of the time for shedding. THe paper that looked at this got 2% for its population, and about 1% for its genital HSV1 shedding rate. Now you can handwave and say 'oh 1% is rare', but its playing games with the biology. HSV2 runs at only 2% which is also rare and still manages to get 20%+ of the US population and virtually all of that is genital. At that point 50% of the shedding time becomes significant, not rare. And 1% steady state shedding is not something that in the context of HSV2 shedding that I can describe as 'if ever'. It gives the wrong impression IMO. Oh and those data were gained using virus culture...use PCR and the percentage days goes up.... Tim -- When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart ICQ: 5178568 Tim, > It occurs at about 50% of the rate of HSV2 genital shedding. I cannot access the journal you sent below, so I cannot comment with regard to that. Can you send me the article? > Now HSV2 runs at 2-8% of the time for shedding. THe paper that looked at > this got 2% for its population, and about 1% for its genital HSV1 > shedding rate. That sounds reasonable to me. > Now you can handwave and say 'oh 1% is rare', but its playing games with > the biology. IMO I think 1% is pretty darn rare. That's 3.65 days per year that there would be some shedding. Assuming it's 5%, that's still under 20 days out of the entire year. I think your definition of "rare" might just not match mine. No big deal :-) > HSV2 runs at only 2% which is also rare and still manages to > get 20%+ of the US population and virtually all of that is genital. At > that point 50% of the shedding time becomes significant, not rare. I'm not so sure that I agree with the 2% number because I can't view that article, but I'll show why it doesn't matter anyway. And I'll show you why 1% becomes negligible. > And 1% steady state shedding is not something that in the context of HSV2 > shedding that I can describe as 'if ever'. Your problem lies in just what you said, "steady-state". Like the frequency of outbreaks, viral shedding does not remain steady but rather falls off with time. I think that might be what you are confused on. > It gives the wrong > impression IMO. Oh and those data were gained using virus culture...use > PCR and the percentage days goes up.... Here's where your wrong IMHO Tim. First of all, shedding of genital HSV-1 doesn't remain at 1% forever. This is why Dr. Handsfield said it is "certainly rare if not non-existent after a few years". Next, let's assume a 5% shedding rate for genital hsv-1 which is probably too high. Couple that with the population, which is 60-90% positive already for the virus. This leaves 10-40% vulnerable to the virus. So the probability becomes 5% times 10%-40% which gives 0.5% to 0.8% chance. This isn't even considering using condoms or other protection either! This said, I hate arguing over statistics, and I'm not looking to do that here. BTW, which type do you have? ~Eric >Tim, I'm not Tim. But just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on how to split a hair. >I think your definition of "rare" might >just not match mine. No big deal :-) Assuming type1 shedding occurs at about half the rate of type 2, and if you consider 3 days "rare", you'll pretty much need to consider 6 days fairly "rare" as well, wouldn't you? ... because *neither* of them happen all that often. >I'll show why it doesn't matter anyway. And I'll show >you why 1% becomes negligible. <snip> >viral shedding does not remain steady but >rather falls off with time. I don't feel very shown. Type 2 does the same thing (fades over time) and yet it's not considered rare. >I think that might be what you are confused >on. Who's confused??? >Dr. Handsfield said it >is "certainly rare if not non-existent after a few years". >let's assume a 5% shedding rate for genital hsv-1 which is >probably too high. Couple that with the population, which is 60-90% >positive already for the virus. This leaves 10-40% vulnerable to the >virus. So the probability becomes 5% times 10%-40% which gives 0.5% to >0.8% chance. This isn't even considering using condoms or other >protection either! Luv the numbers but..... now you're confusing "shedding rates" with "transmission risk". There's not necessarily a 1/1 relationship between the two. Too many ifs ands & buts. Never mind the fact we're usually discussing "averages" that can vary widely with individuals depending on said "ifs, ands, & buts". Nutshell: If Dr. Handsfield said Type 1 genital asymptomatic shedding is "certainly rare if not non-existent after a few years", I'd think it must have been in some sort of context to which we're not privy. Otherwise, I'd go with Tim's definition or "rare". As a stand alone statement, Dr Handsfield's gives a misleading impression. M2 M2, > I'm not Tim. But just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on how to split > a hair. M2, thanks for giving your opinion, always happy to hear as many as possible :-) > Assuming type1 shedding occurs at about half the rate of type 2, and > if you consider 3 days "rare", you'll pretty much need to consider 6 > days fairly "rare" as well, wouldn't you? ... because *neither* of > them happen all that often. I don't consider type-2 shedding to be much of a threat as long a protective and preventative measures are taken. I can't access the journal article he had so I won't comment on the numbers. > I don't feel very shown. Type 2 does the same thing (fades over time) > and yet it's not considered rare. I think that based on viral location of preference, the fading over time varies, not always, but probably more often than not. I think that's why people with oral hsv-2 don't really pose any significant shedding hazard. No, I agree that it's not very convincing though based on the number of people with hsv-1 and hsv-2. I think there are other factors involved such as lying and ignorance of herpes. > Who's confused??? Ooh, me! Me! LOL! ;-) > Luv the numbers but..... now you're confusing "shedding rates" with > "transmission risk". There's not necessarily a 1/1 relationship > between the two. Too many ifs ands & buts. Never mind the fact we're > usually discussing "averages" that can vary widely with individuals > depending on said "ifs, ands, & buts". I hate talking numbers too. There definitely are too many ifs, ands, & buts. My only point is that if proper preventative and protective steps are taken by both partners, the risk of transmission goes way down. And what is really great is that over time as love grows between a person and their partner, people often don't even care if they get infected because their love is so much greater than the silly virus. Now that's awesome! ~Eric Eric, I think the shedding rate of HSV2 is higher than 2%, that seems kinda low. I heard 4-8% on any given day when no outbreaks are present and 3 days before, during and 4 days after an outbreak as high as 75% transmission rate for type-2. Maybe type 1 is lower. I also heard that there are other factors that increase transmission and activity such as stress, and menstral cycles and friction from sex. Al > Eric, > > I think the shedding rate of HSV2 is higher than 2%, that seems kinda It varies dependant on the population you study...your 4-8% represents the core range. When you do a population study you set things up for comparability....so that your varioous prevalence testing groups are comparable even if they do not sit squarely on the mean...ie one arm varies so doe sth eother. > I also heard that there are other factors that increase transmission > and activity such as stress, and menstral cycles and friction from sex. This list will be rather long on that. As big as the trigger list probably.... Tim -- When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart ICQ: 5178568 > I don't consider type-2 shedding to be much of a threat as long a > protective and preventative measures are taken. I think this is the core of the issue....Given that most transfers are considered to occur asymptomatically and the truely vast numbers of people with the virus (22% of a population affected by one pathogen is HUGE on any scale of pathogen prevalence) in shedding we are dealing with what is in my opinion a virus event that is a very significant event that shouldnt be sidelined as not much of a threat. Thats why they have studied what the various mathods to reduce the threat - however so far reducing is all that they can manage. Tim -- When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart ICQ: 5178568 > Tim, > >> It occurs at about 50% of the rate of HSV2 genital shedding. > > I cannot access the journal you sent below, so I cannot comment with > regard to that. Can you send me the article? Im not sure if its available as a pdf or not. I was looking at an HTML version. >> Now HSV2 runs at 2-8% of the time for shedding. THe paper that looked at >> this got 2% for its population, and about 1% for its genital HSV1 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > days out of the entire year. I think your definition of "rare" might > just not match mine. No big deal :-) Context Eric, Context. When HSV2 shedding is at 2% and the level of HSV1 shedding in the comparable subset is at 1% then its lower levels of shedding not rare in those circumstances. Yes 1% is a small number and many will say it means rare but rare is a SUBJECTIVE term and relative to other instances of similar activity. HSV2 is the comparitor. I have no problem wit the idea that HSV1 is less active in the genital site than HSV2 , Ive said it here many times, I have no problem with the idea that this leads to lower transmission rates. What I have a problem with is the idea that this somehow makes it rare to virtually nonexistant just becuase the numbers are small. You find a lot of small numbers in discussing shedding and transmission yet the infection numbers are still vast. What noone has been able to do yet for HSV is to work out certain important biological numbers and their cutoffs (namely how much do I need to get exposed to to run a risk of transmission) which would put the very smnall numbers into a decent bioligical context. I did point out that you can handwave and say 1% or 2% is rare to defend yuorself as having said something correct - but its evading the issue by using such an absolutism because you remove biological context and we are back to giving the wrong impression again. >> HSV2 runs at only 2% which is also rare and still manages to >> get 20%+ of the US population and virtually all of that is genital. At [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > rather falls off with time. I think that might be what you are confused > on. I wasnt talking steady state as an individual - I was talking at the population level....this data came from a reasonable sample so it represents a reasonably steady average (hence steady state) in the population tested. Probably could be better phrased, sorry I was in a rush....Im not being confused and missing your point about shedding going off over time - HSV2 does the same thing remember and as to tracking how far HSV1 goes off over time - any data on genital HSV1 is damn hard to find as most people simply dont look at it. >> It gives the wrong >> impression IMO. Oh and those data were gained using virus culture...use [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > HSV-1 doesn't remain at 1% forever. This is why Dr. Handsfield said it > is "certainly rare if not non-existent after a few years". The sample comes form a population sampling that has a wide range of people - some will be higher some will be lower but the average kicks in there and in considering risks and describing the risks that average has quite a lot of meaning. If it disappeared in a couple of years then the average is going to plunge. Yes, again I press back to context in comparison with HSV2 but its important and you seem to look at HSV1 in isolation especially with the definition of rare. The fact the average comes in at 50% of the HSV2 levels does NOT match something that disappears after a few years. It matches soemthing that is hanging around as much as HSV2. Sure you can go absolute if you want but again it immediately takes numbers out of context and ignores the issue of what is defined as rare in any biological context. > virus. So the probability becomes 5% times 10%-40% which gives 0.5% to > 0.8% chance. No the chance of shedding is 1% - established in the literature, you've started discussing transmission - different issue and one that you dont quote direct from HAndsfield - you just offer an impression. Wel its not one Ive got from talking to major people in the field - some of whom are copublishers with Handsfield. So either he disagrees with them and Ill go with the majority Im afraid or you are misunderstanding him and/or the data and biology (and Im afraid the failure to take most of this data in comparison with HSV2 does make me suspect there may be an element of the second). > This isn't even considering using condoms or other > protection either! This said, I hate arguing over statistics, and I'm > not looking to do that here. BTW, which type do you have? Which type....hard to tell. Im likely gonna show positive for all sorts since Ive been exposed to protein concentrations from the viruses at work. I know I carry HSV1 as it occasionally comes active. HSV2 I dont think so but no blood test would be reliable any more. Tim -- When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart ICQ: 5178568 ALH, I passed HSV-1 to my husband's genitals thru oral sex. At 45, I was ignorant of the fact that that could happen. It seems that when you have HSV-1 orally, no one gives you any information about how it can be spread. I just assumed, as so many uninformed people out there, that HSV-1 affected the mouth only. You can have types 1 & 2 in both places, although type 2 doesn't usually like the oral area. Those cases are much more rare. I just had my 3rd Herpes Select type-2 test done this week (awaiting results now). I used a website callled tstd.org. You can either order the test online with a credit card, or you can pay by cash. The counselors there are really informed, and really nice. I would recommend it. If you get a type-1 & type 2 Herpes Select test it will cost you $129.00. Type-2 by itself will be $89.00. I know I have type 1, but I am checking for type -2. The first test I had done at my doctor's office said I was positive for type-2. However, thanks to a few good friends (Eric, to name one) I was urged to retest. My first test came at the end of an oral HSV-1 outbreak. The 2nd test came back equivocal (neither neg. or pos.), so "third time's a charm" as they say...LOL I don't remember what type you have or where it's located, but I wish you the best with your testing. Michelle > Suppose back in 1980 when my Dr told me I had Herpes by his visual test, > I assumed type2. why, hmmm mainly because I had not indulged in oral sex. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > have health insurance. > ALH > Suppose back in 1980 when my Dr told me I had Herpes by his visual test, Your doctor diagnosed you by site alone? > I assumed type2. why, hmmm mainly because I had not indulged in oral sex. > I did not give or receive. Did you assume that you had genital herpes type-2 because of where the outbreak was located? You do realize that genital herpes can be type-1 or type-2, right? > so some of you are saying that the man who gave it to me who didnt know he > had it until days after we had sex, could have had type 1?, How do you know who you contracted herpes from? 90% of those that have genital herpes are not even aware of there status and for lots of different reasons. > but isnt type > 1 mainly on the mouth and face? HSV-1 can be either oral herpes OR genital herpes. > He told me he had the sores on his penis. What type of testing did he have done and was the testing typed? > Are you saying another woman in his past could have had type 1 and gave > him oral sex and maybe that is why I have type 1 too? Do you really have genital herpes type-1? > How much does it cost in cash for a specific type blood test? Here's some information on accurate herpes testing: www.yoshi2me.com/genital-herpes.html You might try giving those companies a call and finding out how mucht hey charge... You can also give Planned Parenthood a call OR your local clinic and doc's offices to see how much they charge and which tests they use... If you don't have a sore that can be cultured within the first 48 hours of its appearance then a type specific herpes blood test (IGG) is in order. Since you don't have health insurance and cost might be a factor for you... try the free health clinics in your area first and see what you can come up with. Good luck, Angela Signature"By opening up to a partner and talking about an STD diagnosis you are showing that you respect and care about yourself as well as the other person." Herpes Help http://www.yoshi2me.com/index.html STD Message Board http://yoshi2me.com/phpbb/index.php Picking Up the Pieces http://yoshi2me.com/pup/index.html |
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