Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Herpes / February 2006

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Tim, what are your thoughts regarding L-canavanine?

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Perl Molson - 17 Jan 2006 14:23 GMT
I don't know if you've followed my ideeas regarding L-canavanine
topical
aplication in a powder mixture with vitamin E wheat germ oil.

The ideea was that, when active, the herpes virus may envelope itself
in
L-canavanine(normally it uses L-Arginine and they are alike)  and some
virions, returning to the neuronal ganglia
will de-envelope the "L-canavanine coat" and releasing inside the
ganglia
perhaps an Oxygen Ion, thus disturbing the mechanism used by virus to
get reactivated from the latent state, making it unable to reappear on
the shedding areas.

Perl von Molson
Perl Molson - 18 Jan 2006 07:18 GMT
http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/264/23/13693

L-Canavanine (~-2-amino-4-(guanidinooxy)butyriacc id) is
synthesized by more than 1200 leguminous plants (1). This
potentially deleterious arginine antagonist can functioin the
chemical defense of higher plants (2) and often exhibits
insecticidal properties (3,4). Canavanine, activated and aminoacylated
by arginyl-tRNA synthetase, subsequently replaces
arginine in the polypeptide chain (5,6). The pK, of the
guanidinooxy group of canavanine is 7.01 (7), far less than
the comparable value for the guanidino group of arginine (pK,
= 12.48) (8). The decreased basicity of canavanine relative to
arginine should affect interactions between the amino acid
residues of canavanine-containing proteins and disrupt the
tertiary and/or quaternary structure that yields the threedimensional
conformation unique to the protein.
Redman et al. (9) studied the effect of canavanine on
albumin synthesized and secreted by Hep G2 cells. These
workers noted that canavanyl albumin,t reated with detergent
under reduced conditions, exhibited an electrophoretic mobility
that differed from the native macromolecule. This phenomenon
had been reported in other canavanine-containing
proteins (10, 11). From these electrophoretic data, they conjectured
that canavanyl albumin might have been altered
conformationally, and this condition persisted under detergent
treatment to produce the divergent electrophoretic pattern.
Whereas this speculation is reasonable, no one has
determined if canavanine incorporation into a protein affects
its conformation, nor has anyone obtained a measure of the
extent of the conformational change.
We have developed a procedure to prepare homogeneous
canavanine-containing vitellogenin from the migratory locust
(Locusta migratoriu migratorioides (Orthoptera)). Vitellogenin,
produced in the insect fat body, is transported by the
hemolymph to thed eveloping oocyte where it is degraded and
used to build vitellin. The latter protein is the major egg yolk
storage protein. Investigation of canavanine incorporation
into vitellogenin has permitted the first comparison of the
physicochemical properties of an aberrant, canavanyl protein
with its native counterpart.

RESULTS AND DISCUSSION
Incorporation of L-canavanine into de novo synthesized
vitellogenin yields a protein in which 18 of the 200 arginine
residues are replaced by canavanine (Table I). This corresponds
to about 1 canavanyl residue in 225 amino acid residues.
This level of arginine replacement by canavanine manifests
a significant effect on the overall conformation of the
native macromolecule.
Treatment of native vitellogenin with detergent, in the
absence of 2-mercaptoethanol, yields protein fragments that

FIG. 1. Electrophoretic evidence of structural change
caused by canavanine. Vitellogenin was examined by gradient
polyacrylamide electrophoresis using a 7.5-15% acrylamide gradient
with 4% stacking gel. The running buffer was 100 mM Tris/glycine
(pH 8.3). The protein was treated with sodium dodecyl sulfate in the
presence of 2-mercaptoethanol for 3 min at 100 "C prior to
electrophoresis
and stained with 0.5% (w/v) Coomassie Blue. Left lane,
native vitellogenin; r@t lane, canavanyl vitellogenin.
can be separated by concentration-gradient gel electrophoresis
(Fig. 1). Identical treatment of canavanyl vitellogenin
produces an altered electrophoretic pattern (Fig. 1). Some of
the protein fragments are no longer discernible, and novel
bands also appear. This altered electrophoretic pattern can
result from changes in the post-translational assembly of
vitellogenin. Vitellogenin is probably assembled by rearrangement
of two polypeptides encoded by separate structural
genes (22). It is possible that modification of the posttranslational
assembly process is responsible ultimately for
the modified electrophoretic pattern. That is, the polypeptide
units from which vitellogenin is constructed are different in
canavanyl vitellogenin. Alternately, there may be a conformational
change in vitellogenin that is revealed in the electrophoretic
pattern in spite of detergent treatment. In either
event, the conformationo f vitellogenin is alteredb y canavanine
incorporation into them acromolecule.
To assess the extenotf native vitellogenin change resulting
from canavanine assimilation, chemical studies of these proteins
were conducted. The chemical approach consisted of
probing conformational differences by determining changes
in the contenot f amino acidse xposed at thep rotein surface.
Native or canavanyl vitellogenin was treated with cyanate to
form homocitrullyl residues by chemical carbamylation of
exposed lysyl residues. Carbamylation of native vitellogenin
indicates that 84 of the 214 lysyl residues react with cyanat

to the native protein because of canavanine-mediated alteration
in antigen conformation rather than because canavanine
is part of the primary structure of the epitope. Thus, the
immunological evidence is consistent with our assertion that
canavanine alters vitellogenin's three-dimensional conformation.
These findings enhance significantly our understanding of
the biochemical basis for canavanine's antimetabolic and
potent insecticidal properties. Moreover, they explain why
insects that incorporate this arginine antagonist into their
proteins always find canavaninep ernicious, whereas canavanine-
resistant insectsh ave evolved mechanisms to scrupulously
avoid incorporating this natural product into their proteins

> I don't know if you've followed my ideeas regarding L-canavanine
> topical
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Perl von Molson
Perl Molson - 18 Jan 2006 07:34 GMT
http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/264/17/9768

L-Canavanine, a higher plant nonprotein amino acid, is a
substrate for the arginyl-tRNA synthetase of organisms sensitive
to this potent arginine antagonist (1, 2). The pK, for
the guanidinooxy group of canavanine is 7.01 (3), compared
to 12.48 for the guanidino group of arginine (4). When canavanine
replaces arginine in proteins, the decrease in residue
basicity can alter residue interactions and affect overall protein
conformation through disruption of tertiary and/or quaternary
structure. Ample evidence exists for pronounced
changes in the physicochemical properties of canavaninecontaining
proteins (5-7).
Canavanine can exhibit potent insecticidal properties (8,
9). A recent study involving two insects that eat canavanineladen
seeds reveals that they avoid incorporating this natural
product into de nouo-synthesized proteins (10). The substitution
errorf requency (a measureo f how frequently canavanine
replaces arginine) is 1 in 365 for the bruchid beetle,
Caryedes brasiliensis and 1 in 500-1000 for the weevil, Sternechus
tuberculutus (10). Whereas the tobacco budworm Heliothis
uirescens does not consume canavanine-containing
plants, it is naturally resistant to this potentially toxic
alle-lochemical (11). This insect exhibits a substitution error
frequency of 1 in 65. These values stand in striking contrast
to the tobacco hornworm, Manduca sexta, a canavaninesensitive
herbivore. This insect has a substitution error frequency
of 1 in 3.3 (10).
These insect studiesw ere important inp roviding sound but
indirect evidence that anomalous, canavanyl protein production
results in adverse biological effects and that canavanyl
protein production is avoided by organisms that consume this
nonprotein amino acid. However, the critical question of
whether structurally aberrant, canavanyl proteins exhibimit -
paired function has not beeand dressed. Assessment therefore
of the importanceo f aberrant protein formatioinn the expression
of the insecticidal and antimetabolic propertieso f canavanine
has not been possible.
Insects such as the giant silkmoth, Hyalophora cecropia
produce a group of small, basic proteins known as cecropins
that exhibit antibacterial activity and presumably function to
protect the insect from invading microorganisms (12). This
insect also produces attacins which are 80-kDa protective
proteins. Antibacterial proteins from dipterans are less well
studied. At present only one toxin from this group of insects
has been extensively studied, i.e. a 39-residue protein called
sarcotoxin I (13)w hich has beenp urified fromt he hemolymph
of injured larvae of the flesh fly, Sarcophaga peregrina (14).
However, a novel group of dipteran protective proteins, obtained
from larvae of the fly, Phormia terranovae (Diptera),
has been discovered recently (15, 16). Live bacteria injected
into the third larval inosft athr is fly mediate de nouo synthesis
of several antibacterial proteins that have been named diptericins
(15,16)m; echanical injury of the larvae is ane ffective
inducing agent (15). The diptericins accumulate in the hemolymph
of such challenged larvae. Purification of these protective
proteins from theh emolymph of mechanically injured P.
terranovae larvae results in the isolation of diptericin A,
diptericin B, diptericin C, and another antibacterial protein
(peak V) that shares properties with sarcotoxiIn ( 14). In this
communication, we report on the effect of canavanine incorporation
into diptericin A, diptericin B, diptericin C, and
Peak V protein on the functioofn t hese antibacterial proteins.
EXPERIMENTAL PROCEDURES AND RESULTS'
DISCUSSION
Administration of canavanine to mechanically injured P.
terranovae larvae results in nearly total to total loss of deltectable
biological activity for diptericin B, diptericin C, and
the peak V protein; diptericin A retains more antibacterial
potency. Canavanine incorporation into these proteins is not
associated with a diminution in de novo protein synthesis;
rather, protein production is stimulated. Thus, the curtailed
biological activity of the protective proteins of P. terranovae
does not result from curtailed protein synthesis, but rather
from canavanine-dependent attenuation of diptericin biological
activity.
In spite of the difference in the basicity between canavanine
and arginine, the above purification procedures were applicable
to the isolation of both canavanyl and normal diptericins.
The ability to purify both a canavanine-containing protein
and its native counterpart by a common purification
scheme has been confirmed in the isolation of homogeneous
native and canavanyl lysozyme from larval tobacco hornworm,
worm, Manduca s e ~ t aT. h~i s investigation presents the first
direct evidence establishing that canavanine incorporation
into a protein can impair its function. This finding gives
important insight into the biochemical basis for canavanine's
potent antimetabolic properties. Moreover, it enhances our
understanding of canavanine's protective efficacy against insects.
Canavanyl protein formation and thea ssociated disruption
in proteifnu nction can reduce significantly an herbivore's
overall ability to survive and reproduce by reducing production
of catalytically competent proteins.
Can the ability of canavanine to cause a total loss of the
biological activity of diptericin B and diptericin C but not
diptericin A be explained from the primary structure of these
proteins? Arginyl residue 12 is common to all three proteins.
Arginine also constitutes residue 37 in diptericin B and diptericin
A, but arginine's identity cannot be demonstrated
unambiguously for diptericin C (16). On the other hand,
residue 38 is arginine in diptericin B and diptericin C, but
arginine is replaced by histidine in diptericin A. Diptericin A
has a final arginyl residue at position 76, but the primary
structure for diptericin B and diptericin C is presently known
for only about 40 residues. Thus, it is not possible to relate
primary structure to the differential effect of canavanine on
diptericin activity, but thefa ct that canavanine cannot replace
histidine 38 in diptericin A may account for the failure of
canavanine to fully inactivate diptericin A, whereas it causesa
complete loss in the biological activity of diptericin B and
diptericin C. Verification of this interesting possibility must
await further protein sequence data.
Perl Molson - 18 Jan 2006 07:48 GMT
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=233103&blobtype=pdf

Comparison of Canavanyl-Envelope Proteins to Normal
Envelope Proteins
Figure 1 shows the pattern of envelope proteins
obtained by acrylamide gel electrophoresis
in a system containing 0.1% sodiium lauryl
sulfate. Each peak or shoulder of canavanyl
protein is matched by a comigrating peak or
shoulder of arginyl protein. The relative quantities
of arginine- and canavanine-containing
proteins in each fraction differ.
The difference in quantities of canavanyl proteins
and arginyl proteins is not due to incorporation
of arginyl-supernatant proteins into the
envelope fraction or due to degradation of arginyl-
envelope proteins. This was shown by two
methods. First, chemical analysis of envelope
fractions (absorbance at 260 nm of a hot-acid
extract) showed the nucleic acid content to be
4%. This indicates there is little ribosomal contamination.
Second, the envelope and supernatant
fractions of cells prelabeled with
[3H]arginine and then incubated with canava-nine did not gain or lose
label. This indicates no
turnover of normal proteins.
To determine if canavanine incorporation or
lysozyme digestion affected the electrophoretic
pattern of arginyl-envelope proteins, a sample
of cells grown in arginine-containing medium
was lysed by sonic treatment for 2 min at 0 C in
an M.S.E. sonicator at 1.4 mA. The envelope
fraction was isolated and treated as described
in the legend to Fig. 1. The acrylamide gels
were stained with Coomassie brilliant blue (3)
and then scanned at 600 nm in a Gilford spectrometer
equipped with a linear transporter.
The pattern of absorption was not significantly
different from the radioactivity pattern obtained
for the '4C-labeled arginyl proteins
shown in Fig. 1. Thus, canavanine incorporation
and lysozyme digestion did not alter the
electrophoretic pattern of envelope proteins obtained
using the procedures described in the
legend to Fig. 1.
Figure 2 shows that canavanyl proteins undergo
degradation and that the amino acids are
compartmentalized and reincorporated into the
envelope fraction. An exponential-phase culture
was pulse-labeled for 2 min with
[3H]leucine and ["'C]canavanine; half was
placed in medium containing leucine and canavanine,
and the other half was placed in medium
containing leucine, canavanine, and 100
pg of chloramphenicol per ml. In the chloramphenicol-
treated culture about 30% of the supernatant
fraction label and about 25% of the
envelope fraction label became hot-acid soluble.
In the culture without chloramphenicol, about
30% of the supernatant label moves from the
supernatant fraction to the envelope fraction.
These data show that canavanyl supernatant,
proteins, and envelope proteins are degraded,
and the amino acids are reincorporated into the
envelope fraction. Since the reincorporation
takes place in the presence of unlabeled aminacids and there is no loss
of label, the amino
acids released by turnover may be in an intracellular
compartment. The rapid turnover of
canavanyl proteins is probably due to alterations
in tertiary structure. Such alterations
lead to rapid in vivo degradation (2). In other
experiments the distribution of pulse-labeled
proteins was followed for 60 min. After the
rapid initial degradation seen in Fig. 2, no further
turnover took place. Similar results were
found with cells pulse-labeled after 15 and 30
min in canavanine-containing medium. This
limited degradation shows that some canavanyl
proteins are more susceptible to degradation
than others. However, all bands are present
in the electrophoretic pattern, so embed-ding of some proteins in the
matrix of the canavanine-
induced particles probably prevents
degradation of all proteins of the susceptible
species. This degradation may account for the
quantitative differences seen between the electrophoretic
patterns.
Perl Molson - 18 Jan 2006 07:56 GMT
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=4562386

Repression of Enzymes of Arginine Biosynthesis by l-Canavanine in
Arginyl-Transfer Ribonucleic Acid Synthetase Mutants of Escherichia
coli
Ronald Faanes and Palmer Rogers

Department of Microbiology, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis,
Minnesota 55455

This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
Abstract
We show that the arginine analogue, l-canavanine, repressed the
accumulation of translatable messenger ribonucleic acid (RNA) for three
arginine biosynthetic enzymes in Escherichia coli. The method used to
determine the level of translatable messenger RNA depended upon
measurement of a burst of enzyme synthesis as described previously. E.
coli strains with defective arginyltransfer ribonucleic acid (tRNA)
synthetase (argS mutants) were insensitive to canavanine repression.
When deprived of leucine, a leu argS strain regained normal sensitivity
to canavanine repression. The level of in vivo canavanyl-tRNAarg was
determined for a normal strain and an argS mutant. After 20 min of
growth with canavanine only 9% of tRNAarg from the argS strain was
protected from periodate oxidation, while 42% of the tRNAarg from an
argS+ strain was charged. When deprived of leucine, leu argS or leu
argS+ strains grown with canavanine contained more than 60% charged
tRNAarg. Reverse phase column chromatography of periodate-oxidized tRNA
from canavanine-grown argS and argS+ strains showed no preferential
charging of any isoaccepting species of tRNAarg. Therefore, we failed
to detect a specific arginyl-tRNA species that might be involved in
repression by canavanine. However, the data suggest that canavanine
repression of the arginine pathway occurs only when high levels of
canavanyl-tRNA are present, and thus support the notion that
arginyl-tRNA synthetase plays a role in generating a repression signal.
Full text

RESULTS
Canavanine repression of the arginine
biosynthetic enzymes. After a short period of
arginine deprivation, addition of arginine
elicits a burst of omithine carbamoyltransferase
synthesis lasting 2 to 4 min. We have
shown that this burst of enzyme synthesis
is a measure of translatable messenger RNA
for this enzyme in E. coli (12). Arginine-deprived
E. coli cells exhibited a similar burst of
acetylornithine deacetylase and arginosuccinate
lyase synthesis upon addition of L-arginine
as shown in Fig. 1. As found previously
for ornithine carbamoyltransferase, the burst
of synthesis for these enzymes lasted 2 to 4
min owing to repression by L-arginine, and no
burst was observed when L-arginine was added
at 0 min. We studied repression of the burst of
ornithine carbamoyltransferase synthesis by
adding a number of analogues of arginine to E.
coli strain 254 cultures at 0 min followed by
arginine 10 min later (Table 2). Only L-canavanine
effectively prevented the build-up of
the capacity to form the burst of enzyme synthesis.
Thus, apparently L-canavanine represses
accumulation of translatable messenger
RNA for this enzyme (12) and similarly
effects acetylornithine deacetylase and arginosuccinate
lyase synthesis as well (Table 3).
Loss of canavanine repression in arginyltRNA
synthetase mutants. When argS mutants
were transferred from AF medium containing
arginine to AF medium containing Lcanavanine
(200 ,g/ml) and incubated for 20
min, a burst of ornithine carbamoyltransferase
synthesis was observed upon addition of L-arginine
that was the same as that observed after5003) were reported by
Hirshfield and Bloemers
(14). The Km values for E. coli strains 254
and 90-9 (Table 4) were determined on partially
purified nuclease-free synthetase preparations
(Fig. 2). Since L-canavanine can be activated
and esterified to tRNA (see below and

Our findings show that no one species of
tRNAarg is selectively left uncharged by canavanine
in argS strain 90-9 even when only 9%
of the total tRNAarg is protected (Fig. 5). Celis
and Maas (4) reported similar results upon
chromatographic comparison of arginyl-tRNA
from wild-type and argS strains grown with
and without arginine. Most likely then, neither
canavanine nor arginine repression is caused
by a peculiar species of tRNAar .
The observed recovery of canavanine repression
by leucine-deprived argS mutants (Table
5) coupled with the observed rise of the in vivo
levels of canavanyl-tRNAarg (Table 8) suggest
that the repression signal is in some manner
related to the concentration of canavanyltRNAarg
or some other intermediate involving
the arginyl-tRNA synthetase. During leucine
deprivation, the level of translatable messenger
RNA for ornithine carbamoyltransferase
decayed 10 min after canavanine was
added in both argS+ and argS E. coli (Tables 5
and 6). Also, 2 gsg of arginine promoted the
same rate of decay of translatable message inboth strains under these
conditions (Fig. 3).
These results show that the repression system
can function normally in argS mutants when
protein synthesis is reduced below the point
where arginyl-tRNA synthetase is limiting.
Probably all experimental values for in vivo
charged tRNA must be viewed with caution,
simply because the pool of charged tRNA may
very well change radically during manipulation
of cells prior to inactivation of cellular enzymes.
In specific cases, unexpectedly high or
low levels of in vivo charged tRNA were obtained
from cultures chilled before harvesting
when compared to more reasonable levels obtained
from cultures first treated with 5%
trichloroacetic acid before manipulation (Neidhardt,
personal communication). In our experiments,
cultures were simply centrifuged for 5
min without chilling, the pellets were rapidly
suspended in acetate buffer containing detergent,
and the cells were lysed by freezing and
thawing. Although we did not test the acid fixation
method of Neidhardt, our data on levels
of in vivo charged tRNAarg (Tables 7 and 8)
appear to follow the pattem expected from the
properties of the arginyl-tRNA synthetases of
the strains used (Table 4) and the conditions
employed.
Since uptake of canavanine into E. coli is
about one-tenth the uptake of arginine (reference
41 and unpublished data), part of the requirement
for a high exogenous concentration
of canavanine for repression may be due to
this fact. However, it is unlikely that the free
canavanine pool is responsible for repression of
translatable messenger RNA, since, when protein
synthesis is permitted, canavanine (200
,ug/ml) represses argS+ cells but does not repress
argS cells. In this situation, argS bacteria
probably contain an even higher pool of free
canavanine, since conversion of canavanine to
canavanyl-tRNAarg and thence to protein is
apparently limited at the synthetase step
(Table 7).
Recently, we reported that L-arginine repressed
the level of hybridizable argECBH
messenger RNA in E. coli to an amount 7- to
24-fold lower than that found in derepressed
cells (30). Our data indicate that arginine acts
at the transcriptional level (19). However, we
found that added canavanine (200 ug/ml) had
little or no effect on reducing-the level of hybridizable
argECBH messenger RNA in either
argS or argS+ strains (30). The repression of
the level of translatable messenger RNA for
the arginine enzymes by canavanine shown in
this report appears to contradict our hybridizablehybridizable
data. Also, as observed by others (5, 15),
arginine apparently signals repression normally
in all argS strains tested so far, even
when the level of charged tRNAarg remains
constant at 20% with or without added arginine
in the growth medium. However, these
discrepancies would be predicted by a dual
model in which both canavanine and arginine
exert control upon the translation of arginine
messenger RNA, mediated by some function of
arginyl-tRNA synthetase, while arginine but
not canavanine represses transcription of new
messenger RNA. Lavelle presented evidence
suggesting that the arginine regulon (20) and
the tryptophan operon (21) are under dual control
by both a transcriptional and a translational
mechanism. Indeed, Vogel et al. (38)
have reviewed the indirect evidence that led
them to propose a translational control model
for the arginine regulon, that they suggest may
operate in conjunction with transcriptional
control.
Perl Molson - 18 Jan 2006 08:13 GMT
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1265433

A comparative study of arginase and canavanase
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1265433&blobtype=pdf
Perl Molson - 19 Jan 2006 11:21 GMT
The toxicity of canavanine to a non-producer species ranging from
bacteria to insects, to plants and mammalian cells has been extensively
described. Canavanine binds to nearly every enzyme that utilizes
arginine. The mechanism of its toxicity has, however, been localized to
its incorporation into proteins giving rise to functionally aberrant
polypeptides. The loss or reduction in activity in
canavanine-containing proteins has been observed for antibacterial
proteins and for lysozyme into which canavanine had been randomly
incorporated. Canavanine containing proteins are also preferentially
degraded, in vivo. Allende and Allende in the '60s first documented the
attachment of canavanine to tRNAArg by the rat liver arginyl-tRNA
synthetase.

http://www.biologie.uni-freiburg.de/data/bio3/igloi/Accuracy.htm

> I don't know if you've followed my ideeas regarding L-canavanine
> topical
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Perl von Molson
Tim Fitzmaurice - 23 Jan 2006 16:22 GMT
I think it has problems....

> The ideea was that, when active, the herpes virus may envelope itself
> in
> L-canavanine(normally it uses L-Arginine and they are alike)

Yes but thats the basis for lysine, and we know the long list of issues
there, the 'it'll do it in the test tube but what's it do, if anything in
life'. It falls into the same pits and traps, with on the basis above no
benefit over lysine which has more work done already.

> and some
> virions, returning to the neuronal ganglia
> will de-envelope the "L-canavanine coat" and releasing inside the
> ganglia
> perhaps an Oxygen Ion

If it did it would take out non regenerating neuronal cells (BAD thing).
There wasnt anything to suggest it would do enough of it....remember the
antioxidants are some of the fastest human enzymes and you are sticking
the thing in with an antioxidant anyway so it cant be a continuous
effect.
THe problem is this doesnt happen until the protein is broken down and
thats away from the nucleus where the DNA is.

> thus disturbing the mechanism used by virus to
> get reactivated from the latent state, making it unable to reappear on
> the shedding areas.

Reactivation is LONG LONG LONG time after any reinfection assuming that
happens....another problem with the idea...the basic production mechanism
sends the virus out to do its thing or 'die'. Cell load can increase but
it seems more likely thats copies failing to go out. THe event of
deenveloping and reactivatio are biochemically to far apart.

Thats the ideas that leap to mind very fast - sorry but that mechanism you
suggested just has no legs for me...and if you are looking at it as a
competitive amino acid, then its back to lysine and the arguments there.

Tim
--
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
ICQ: 5178568
Perl Molson - 25 Jan 2006 04:24 GMT
> I think it has problems....
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> life'. It falls into the same pits and traps, with on the basis above no
> benefit over lysine which has more work done already.

Well, you see, Lysine is not L-Canavanine, even though, together with
Arginine
they are similar.

It seems herpes cannot envelop itself in Lysine; my hope is, it can
envelop itself in Canavanine.

> > and some
> > virions, returning to the neuronal ganglia
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> If it did it would take out non regenerating neuronal cells (BAD thing).

Why would it take out the neuronal cell? Hopefully it won't.
The process of interupting herpes viruses from reactivation from their
latent states,
doesn't imply eventually, that the whole cell will be damaged.
Maybe a single dna sequence or protein syntesis malfunctional will
be enough for this.

That ONE and perhaps ONLY disturbance at the DNA level will
cause the herpes virus to become unable to get reactivated (that's what
I am hoping).

> There wasnt anything to suggest it would do enough of it....remember the
> antioxidants are some of the fastest human enzymes

this is the good thing; without being fast enough, eventually, my
theory wouldn't work.

and you are sticking
> the thing in with an antioxidant anyway so it cant be a continuous
> effect.

my theory goes about an interuption at the DNA level, you don't require

a continuous effect; let's say that the nervous system is like
Christmas LED-lights connected to a multipurpose transformer at 12V; if
you change the voltage at 6 V, the
LED will stop producing light; this change of voltage works like the
antioxidant's
effect in the genes of the neuronal ganglia.

> THe problem is this doesnt happen until the protein is broken down and
> thats away from the nucleus where the DNA is.

see above

> > thus disturbing the mechanism used by virus to
> > get reactivated from the latent state, making it unable to reappear on
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> it seems more likely thats copies failing to go out. THe event of
> deenveloping and reactivatio are biochemically to far apart.

Sure, but the same virion will travel all along the axon, enveloped in
Canavanine; a few hours, perhaps?

> Thats the ideas that leap to mind very fast - sorry but that mechanism you
> suggested just has no legs for me...and if you are looking at it as a
> competitive amino acid, then its back to lysine and the arguments there.

The time will tell, I guess; if it's a viable method, it will be a
breakthrough in
the field of herpes treatments.

Since I've used mashed alfalfa (powdered from an alfalfa pill)
in vitamin E oil from Wheat Germ (a natural source of vitamin E)
topically,
I haven't had since any signs of herpes activity whatsoever, no matter
how persistently I've tried to use one of my old triggers:
eating peanuts, wallnuts, cashews, other nuts, citric foods,
such as oranges, grapefruits, etc, exhaustion from physical exercise,
not sleeping nights for 2 or 3 months, exposing to wind, UV, cold,
even a little trauma on the lips (by accident).

Perl von Molson

> Tim
> --
> When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
> ICQ: 5178568
Tim Fitzmaurice - 25 Jan 2006 08:12 GMT
> Well, you see, Lysine is not L-Canavanine, even though, together with
> Arginine
> they are similar.

Yes but you are trying to get them to do the same things - at least in th
mechanism you proposed. So they share their problems.

Anything could theoretically do something different thats unknown but its
impossible to quantify that and drugs that work like that tend to get
spotted accidentaly...or in th eprocess of looking at something else (eg
Viagra and resiquimod in their proposed areas were used for different
things than their final testing)

> It seems herpes cannot envelop itself in Lysine; my hope is, it can
> envelop itself in Canavanine.

The amino acid will get incorporated into proteins rather than forming a
coat itself....is that what you meant?

>>> and some
>>> virions, returning to the neuronal ganglia
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Why would it take out the neuronal cell?

Because thats what oxidative damage by reactive species of atom do....kill
cells when you get enough of it. THere's nothing in the idea you proposed
to target a specific area of virus only. You said as it uncoated which is
a fairly wide area of cell biochemistry getting exposed. Even if it was
the final stage you would be exposing the host DNA and could get anything
there as well....bad thing to happen.

> The process of interupting herpes viruses from reactivation from their
> latent states,
> doesn't imply eventually, that the whole cell will be damaged.

If you get it right sure - but you need some basic information that you
might be getting it right to proceed...plus again why the idea that you
get reactive oxygens getting released in that way...

> That ONE and perhaps ONLY disturbance at the DNA level will
> cause the herpes virus to become unable to get reactivated (that's what
> I am hoping).

Yes but is it host or viral factors that are the switch? The big thing
that keeps latency is the LAT transcription - knock out that DNA and it
will stay lytic...effectively the system appears to be a suppressive one,
where a positive signal keeps the virus latent, taking out
or interfering with that signal will release the virus - not suppress
it...thats the biggest problem

>> There wasnt anything to suggest it would do enough of it....remember the
>> antioxidants are some of the fastest human enzymes
>
> this is the good thing; without being fast enough, eventually, my
> theory wouldn't work.

Umm your idea relies on reactive oxygens - antixoidants being fast means
they clear them up....how is that a good thing for the idea?

> my theory goes about an interuption at the DNA level, you don't require
>
> a continuous effect;

The current understanding of latency suggests that it does in fact require
a constant signal to keep the latent state going. So its not so much a
signal to go latent, but a lack of singal releases it. THats going to
cause more problems for your idea than anything else.

> LED will stop producing light; this change of voltage works like the
> antioxidant's
> effect in the genes of the neuronal ganglia.

Sorry that last bit makes no sense to me - antioxidants would protect the
DNA from oxidative damage not interact with them.

>> thats away from the nucleus where the DNA is.
>
> see above

Signal is in the nucleus - you need to be there to play with the
signals...

>> Reactivation is LONG LONG LONG time after any reinfection assuming that

> Sure, but the same virion will travel all along the axon, enveloped in
> Canavanine; a few hours, perhaps?

A few hours is still a short time....reactivation occurs way after any
protein part of the virus is long gone...it occurs in the stage where all
thats left of the virus is its nucleic acid in the nucleus of the host.
Both envelope proteins and capsid proteins have disassembled and been
taken away fro degradation elsewhere.

Tim
--
When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart
ICQ: 5178568
Perl Molson - 05 Feb 2006 01:07 GMT
Tim, thanks for answering, however, at this point I need to study more
in order to understand this complex issues.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.