Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Herpes / February 2006
Tim, what are your thoughts regarding L-canavanine?
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Perl Molson - 17 Jan 2006 14:23 GMT I don't know if you've followed my ideeas regarding L-canavanine topical aplication in a powder mixture with vitamin E wheat germ oil.
The ideea was that, when active, the herpes virus may envelope itself in L-canavanine(normally it uses L-Arginine and they are alike) and some virions, returning to the neuronal ganglia will de-envelope the "L-canavanine coat" and releasing inside the ganglia perhaps an Oxygen Ion, thus disturbing the mechanism used by virus to get reactivated from the latent state, making it unable to reappear on the shedding areas.
Perl von Molson
Perl Molson - 18 Jan 2006 07:18 GMT http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/264/23/13693
L-Canavanine (~-2-amino-4-(guanidinooxy)butyriacc id) is synthesized by more than 1200 leguminous plants (1). This potentially deleterious arginine antagonist can functioin the chemical defense of higher plants (2) and often exhibits insecticidal properties (3,4). Canavanine, activated and aminoacylated by arginyl-tRNA synthetase, subsequently replaces arginine in the polypeptide chain (5,6). The pK, of the guanidinooxy group of canavanine is 7.01 (7), far less than the comparable value for the guanidino group of arginine (pK, = 12.48) (8). The decreased basicity of canavanine relative to arginine should affect interactions between the amino acid residues of canavanine-containing proteins and disrupt the tertiary and/or quaternary structure that yields the threedimensional conformation unique to the protein. Redman et al. (9) studied the effect of canavanine on albumin synthesized and secreted by Hep G2 cells. These workers noted that canavanyl albumin,t reated with detergent under reduced conditions, exhibited an electrophoretic mobility that differed from the native macromolecule. This phenomenon had been reported in other canavanine-containing proteins (10, 11). From these electrophoretic data, they conjectured that canavanyl albumin might have been altered conformationally, and this condition persisted under detergent treatment to produce the divergent electrophoretic pattern. Whereas this speculation is reasonable, no one has determined if canavanine incorporation into a protein affects its conformation, nor has anyone obtained a measure of the extent of the conformational change. We have developed a procedure to prepare homogeneous canavanine-containing vitellogenin from the migratory locust (Locusta migratoriu migratorioides (Orthoptera)). Vitellogenin, produced in the insect fat body, is transported by the hemolymph to thed eveloping oocyte where it is degraded and used to build vitellin. The latter protein is the major egg yolk storage protein. Investigation of canavanine incorporation into vitellogenin has permitted the first comparison of the physicochemical properties of an aberrant, canavanyl protein with its native counterpart.
RESULTS AND DISCUSSION Incorporation of L-canavanine into de novo synthesized vitellogenin yields a protein in which 18 of the 200 arginine residues are replaced by canavanine (Table I). This corresponds to about 1 canavanyl residue in 225 amino acid residues. This level of arginine replacement by canavanine manifests a significant effect on the overall conformation of the native macromolecule. Treatment of native vitellogenin with detergent, in the absence of 2-mercaptoethanol, yields protein fragments that
FIG. 1. Electrophoretic evidence of structural change caused by canavanine. Vitellogenin was examined by gradient polyacrylamide electrophoresis using a 7.5-15% acrylamide gradient with 4% stacking gel. The running buffer was 100 mM Tris/glycine (pH 8.3). The protein was treated with sodium dodecyl sulfate in the presence of 2-mercaptoethanol for 3 min at 100 "C prior to electrophoresis and stained with 0.5% (w/v) Coomassie Blue. Left lane, native vitellogenin; r@t lane, canavanyl vitellogenin. can be separated by concentration-gradient gel electrophoresis (Fig. 1). Identical treatment of canavanyl vitellogenin produces an altered electrophoretic pattern (Fig. 1). Some of the protein fragments are no longer discernible, and novel bands also appear. This altered electrophoretic pattern can result from changes in the post-translational assembly of vitellogenin. Vitellogenin is probably assembled by rearrangement of two polypeptides encoded by separate structural genes (22). It is possible that modification of the posttranslational assembly process is responsible ultimately for the modified electrophoretic pattern. That is, the polypeptide units from which vitellogenin is constructed are different in canavanyl vitellogenin. Alternately, there may be a conformational change in vitellogenin that is revealed in the electrophoretic pattern in spite of detergent treatment. In either event, the conformationo f vitellogenin is alteredb y canavanine incorporation into them acromolecule. To assess the extenotf native vitellogenin change resulting from canavanine assimilation, chemical studies of these proteins were conducted. The chemical approach consisted of probing conformational differences by determining changes in the contenot f amino acidse xposed at thep rotein surface. Native or canavanyl vitellogenin was treated with cyanate to form homocitrullyl residues by chemical carbamylation of exposed lysyl residues. Carbamylation of native vitellogenin indicates that 84 of the 214 lysyl residues react with cyanat
to the native protein because of canavanine-mediated alteration in antigen conformation rather than because canavanine is part of the primary structure of the epitope. Thus, the immunological evidence is consistent with our assertion that canavanine alters vitellogenin's three-dimensional conformation. These findings enhance significantly our understanding of the biochemical basis for canavanine's antimetabolic and potent insecticidal properties. Moreover, they explain why insects that incorporate this arginine antagonist into their proteins always find canavaninep ernicious, whereas canavanine- resistant insectsh ave evolved mechanisms to scrupulously avoid incorporating this natural product into their proteins
> I don't know if you've followed my ideeas regarding L-canavanine > topical [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Perl von Molson Perl Molson - 18 Jan 2006 07:34 GMT http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/264/17/9768
L-Canavanine, a higher plant nonprotein amino acid, is a substrate for the arginyl-tRNA synthetase of organisms sensitive to this potent arginine antagonist (1, 2). The pK, for the guanidinooxy group of canavanine is 7.01 (3), compared to 12.48 for the guanidino group of arginine (4). When canavanine replaces arginine in proteins, the decrease in residue basicity can alter residue interactions and affect overall protein conformation through disruption of tertiary and/or quaternary structure. Ample evidence exists for pronounced changes in the physicochemical properties of canavaninecontaining proteins (5-7). Canavanine can exhibit potent insecticidal properties (8, 9). A recent study involving two insects that eat canavanineladen seeds reveals that they avoid incorporating this natural product into de nouo-synthesized proteins (10). The substitution errorf requency (a measureo f how frequently canavanine replaces arginine) is 1 in 365 for the bruchid beetle, Caryedes brasiliensis and 1 in 500-1000 for the weevil, Sternechus tuberculutus (10). Whereas the tobacco budworm Heliothis uirescens does not consume canavanine-containing plants, it is naturally resistant to this potentially toxic alle-lochemical (11). This insect exhibits a substitution error frequency of 1 in 65. These values stand in striking contrast to the tobacco hornworm, Manduca sexta, a canavaninesensitive herbivore. This insect has a substitution error frequency of 1 in 3.3 (10). These insect studiesw ere important inp roviding sound but indirect evidence that anomalous, canavanyl protein production results in adverse biological effects and that canavanyl protein production is avoided by organisms that consume this nonprotein amino acid. However, the critical question of whether structurally aberrant, canavanyl proteins exhibimit - paired function has not beeand dressed. Assessment therefore of the importanceo f aberrant protein formatioinn the expression of the insecticidal and antimetabolic propertieso f canavanine has not been possible. Insects such as the giant silkmoth, Hyalophora cecropia produce a group of small, basic proteins known as cecropins that exhibit antibacterial activity and presumably function to protect the insect from invading microorganisms (12). This insect also produces attacins which are 80-kDa protective proteins. Antibacterial proteins from dipterans are less well studied. At present only one toxin from this group of insects has been extensively studied, i.e. a 39-residue protein called sarcotoxin I (13)w hich has beenp urified fromt he hemolymph of injured larvae of the flesh fly, Sarcophaga peregrina (14). However, a novel group of dipteran protective proteins, obtained from larvae of the fly, Phormia terranovae (Diptera), has been discovered recently (15, 16). Live bacteria injected into the third larval inosft athr is fly mediate de nouo synthesis of several antibacterial proteins that have been named diptericins (15,16)m; echanical injury of the larvae is ane ffective inducing agent (15). The diptericins accumulate in the hemolymph of such challenged larvae. Purification of these protective proteins from theh emolymph of mechanically injured P. terranovae larvae results in the isolation of diptericin A, diptericin B, diptericin C, and another antibacterial protein (peak V) that shares properties with sarcotoxiIn ( 14). In this communication, we report on the effect of canavanine incorporation into diptericin A, diptericin B, diptericin C, and Peak V protein on the functioofn t hese antibacterial proteins. EXPERIMENTAL PROCEDURES AND RESULTS' DISCUSSION Administration of canavanine to mechanically injured P. terranovae larvae results in nearly total to total loss of deltectable biological activity for diptericin B, diptericin C, and the peak V protein; diptericin A retains more antibacterial potency. Canavanine incorporation into these proteins is not associated with a diminution in de novo protein synthesis; rather, protein production is stimulated. Thus, the curtailed biological activity of the protective proteins of P. terranovae does not result from curtailed protein synthesis, but rather from canavanine-dependent attenuation of diptericin biological activity. In spite of the difference in the basicity between canavanine and arginine, the above purification procedures were applicable to the isolation of both canavanyl and normal diptericins. The ability to purify both a canavanine-containing protein and its native counterpart by a common purification scheme has been confirmed in the isolation of homogeneous native and canavanyl lysozyme from larval tobacco hornworm, worm, Manduca s e ~ t aT. h~i s investigation presents the first direct evidence establishing that canavanine incorporation into a protein can impair its function. This finding gives important insight into the biochemical basis for canavanine's potent antimetabolic properties. Moreover, it enhances our understanding of canavanine's protective efficacy against insects. Canavanyl protein formation and thea ssociated disruption in proteifnu nction can reduce significantly an herbivore's overall ability to survive and reproduce by reducing production of catalytically competent proteins. Can the ability of canavanine to cause a total loss of the biological activity of diptericin B and diptericin C but not diptericin A be explained from the primary structure of these proteins? Arginyl residue 12 is common to all three proteins. Arginine also constitutes residue 37 in diptericin B and diptericin A, but arginine's identity cannot be demonstrated unambiguously for diptericin C (16). On the other hand, residue 38 is arginine in diptericin B and diptericin C, but arginine is replaced by histidine in diptericin A. Diptericin A has a final arginyl residue at position 76, but the primary structure for diptericin B and diptericin C is presently known for only about 40 residues. Thus, it is not possible to relate primary structure to the differential effect of canavanine on diptericin activity, but thefa ct that canavanine cannot replace histidine 38 in diptericin A may account for the failure of canavanine to fully inactivate diptericin A, whereas it causesa complete loss in the biological activity of diptericin B and diptericin C. Verification of this interesting possibility must await further protein sequence data.
Perl Molson - 18 Jan 2006 07:48 GMT http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=233103&blobtype=pdf
Comparison of Canavanyl-Envelope Proteins to Normal Envelope Proteins Figure 1 shows the pattern of envelope proteins obtained by acrylamide gel electrophoresis in a system containing 0.1% sodiium lauryl sulfate. Each peak or shoulder of canavanyl protein is matched by a comigrating peak or shoulder of arginyl protein. The relative quantities of arginine- and canavanine-containing proteins in each fraction differ. The difference in quantities of canavanyl proteins and arginyl proteins is not due to incorporation of arginyl-supernatant proteins into the envelope fraction or due to degradation of arginyl- envelope proteins. This was shown by two methods. First, chemical analysis of envelope fractions (absorbance at 260 nm of a hot-acid extract) showed the nucleic acid content to be 4%. This indicates there is little ribosomal contamination. Second, the envelope and supernatant fractions of cells prelabeled with [3H]arginine and then incubated with canava-nine did not gain or lose label. This indicates no turnover of normal proteins. To determine if canavanine incorporation or lysozyme digestion affected the electrophoretic pattern of arginyl-envelope proteins, a sample of cells grown in arginine-containing medium was lysed by sonic treatment for 2 min at 0 C in an M.S.E. sonicator at 1.4 mA. The envelope fraction was isolated and treated as described in the legend to Fig. 1. The acrylamide gels were stained with Coomassie brilliant blue (3) and then scanned at 600 nm in a Gilford spectrometer equipped with a linear transporter. The pattern of absorption was not significantly different from the radioactivity pattern obtained for the '4C-labeled arginyl proteins shown in Fig. 1. Thus, canavanine incorporation and lysozyme digestion did not alter the electrophoretic pattern of envelope proteins obtained using the procedures described in the legend to Fig. 1. Figure 2 shows that canavanyl proteins undergo degradation and that the amino acids are compartmentalized and reincorporated into the envelope fraction. An exponential-phase culture was pulse-labeled for 2 min with [3H]leucine and ["'C]canavanine; half was placed in medium containing leucine and canavanine, and the other half was placed in medium containing leucine, canavanine, and 100 pg of chloramphenicol per ml. In the chloramphenicol- treated culture about 30% of the supernatant fraction label and about 25% of the envelope fraction label became hot-acid soluble. In the culture without chloramphenicol, about 30% of the supernatant label moves from the supernatant fraction to the envelope fraction. These data show that canavanyl supernatant, proteins, and envelope proteins are degraded, and the amino acids are reincorporated into the envelope fraction. Since the reincorporation takes place in the presence of unlabeled aminacids and there is no loss of label, the amino acids released by turnover may be in an intracellular compartment. The rapid turnover of canavanyl proteins is probably due to alterations in tertiary structure. Such alterations lead to rapid in vivo degradation (2). In other experiments the distribution of pulse-labeled proteins was followed for 60 min. After the rapid initial degradation seen in Fig. 2, no further turnover took place. Similar results were found with cells pulse-labeled after 15 and 30 min in canavanine-containing medium. This limited degradation shows that some canavanyl proteins are more susceptible to degradation than others. However, all bands are present in the electrophoretic pattern, so embed-ding of some proteins in the matrix of the canavanine- induced particles probably prevents degradation of all proteins of the susceptible species. This degradation may account for the quantitative differences seen between the electrophoretic patterns.
Perl Molson - 18 Jan 2006 07:56 GMT http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=4562386
Repression of Enzymes of Arginine Biosynthesis by l-Canavanine in Arginyl-Transfer Ribonucleic Acid Synthetase Mutants of Escherichia coli Ronald Faanes and Palmer Rogers
Department of Microbiology, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55455
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC. Abstract We show that the arginine analogue, l-canavanine, repressed the accumulation of translatable messenger ribonucleic acid (RNA) for three arginine biosynthetic enzymes in Escherichia coli. The method used to determine the level of translatable messenger RNA depended upon measurement of a burst of enzyme synthesis as described previously. E. coli strains with defective arginyltransfer ribonucleic acid (tRNA) synthetase (argS mutants) were insensitive to canavanine repression. When deprived of leucine, a leu argS strain regained normal sensitivity to canavanine repression. The level of in vivo canavanyl-tRNAarg was determined for a normal strain and an argS mutant. After 20 min of growth with canavanine only 9% of tRNAarg from the argS strain was protected from periodate oxidation, while 42% of the tRNAarg from an argS+ strain was charged. When deprived of leucine, leu argS or leu argS+ strains grown with canavanine contained more than 60% charged tRNAarg. Reverse phase column chromatography of periodate-oxidized tRNA from canavanine-grown argS and argS+ strains showed no preferential charging of any isoaccepting species of tRNAarg. Therefore, we failed to detect a specific arginyl-tRNA species that might be involved in repression by canavanine. However, the data suggest that canavanine repression of the arginine pathway occurs only when high levels of canavanyl-tRNA are present, and thus support the notion that arginyl-tRNA synthetase plays a role in generating a repression signal. Full text
RESULTS Canavanine repression of the arginine biosynthetic enzymes. After a short period of arginine deprivation, addition of arginine elicits a burst of omithine carbamoyltransferase synthesis lasting 2 to 4 min. We have shown that this burst of enzyme synthesis is a measure of translatable messenger RNA for this enzyme in E. coli (12). Arginine-deprived E. coli cells exhibited a similar burst of acetylornithine deacetylase and arginosuccinate lyase synthesis upon addition of L-arginine as shown in Fig. 1. As found previously for ornithine carbamoyltransferase, the burst of synthesis for these enzymes lasted 2 to 4 min owing to repression by L-arginine, and no burst was observed when L-arginine was added at 0 min. We studied repression of the burst of ornithine carbamoyltransferase synthesis by adding a number of analogues of arginine to E. coli strain 254 cultures at 0 min followed by arginine 10 min later (Table 2). Only L-canavanine effectively prevented the build-up of the capacity to form the burst of enzyme synthesis. Thus, apparently L-canavanine represses accumulation of translatable messenger RNA for this enzyme (12) and similarly effects acetylornithine deacetylase and arginosuccinate lyase synthesis as well (Table 3). Loss of canavanine repression in arginyltRNA synthetase mutants. When argS mutants were transferred from AF medium containing arginine to AF medium containing Lcanavanine (200 ,g/ml) and incubated for 20 min, a burst of ornithine carbamoyltransferase synthesis was observed upon addition of L-arginine that was the same as that observed after5003) were reported by Hirshfield and Bloemers (14). The Km values for E. coli strains 254 and 90-9 (Table 4) were determined on partially purified nuclease-free synthetase preparations (Fig. 2). Since L-canavanine can be activated and esterified to tRNA (see below and
Our findings show that no one species of tRNAarg is selectively left uncharged by canavanine in argS strain 90-9 even when only 9% of the total tRNAarg is protected (Fig. 5). Celis and Maas (4) reported similar results upon chromatographic comparison of arginyl-tRNA from wild-type and argS strains grown with and without arginine. Most likely then, neither canavanine nor arginine repression is caused by a peculiar species of tRNAar . The observed recovery of canavanine repression by leucine-deprived argS mutants (Table 5) coupled with the observed rise of the in vivo levels of canavanyl-tRNAarg (Table 8) suggest that the repression signal is in some manner related to the concentration of canavanyltRNAarg or some other intermediate involving the arginyl-tRNA synthetase. During leucine deprivation, the level of translatable messenger RNA for ornithine carbamoyltransferase decayed 10 min after canavanine was added in both argS+ and argS E. coli (Tables 5 and 6). Also, 2 gsg of arginine promoted the same rate of decay of translatable message inboth strains under these conditions (Fig. 3). These results show that the repression system can function normally in argS mutants when protein synthesis is reduced below the point where arginyl-tRNA synthetase is limiting. Probably all experimental values for in vivo charged tRNA must be viewed with caution, simply because the pool of charged tRNA may very well change radically during manipulation of cells prior to inactivation of cellular enzymes. In specific cases, unexpectedly high or low levels of in vivo charged tRNA were obtained from cultures chilled before harvesting when compared to more reasonable levels obtained from cultures first treated with 5% trichloroacetic acid before manipulation (Neidhardt, personal communication). In our experiments, cultures were simply centrifuged for 5 min without chilling, the pellets were rapidly suspended in acetate buffer containing detergent, and the cells were lysed by freezing and thawing. Although we did not test the acid fixation method of Neidhardt, our data on levels of in vivo charged tRNAarg (Tables 7 and 8) appear to follow the pattem expected from the properties of the arginyl-tRNA synthetases of the strains used (Table 4) and the conditions employed. Since uptake of canavanine into E. coli is about one-tenth the uptake of arginine (reference 41 and unpublished data), part of the requirement for a high exogenous concentration of canavanine for repression may be due to this fact. However, it is unlikely that the free canavanine pool is responsible for repression of translatable messenger RNA, since, when protein synthesis is permitted, canavanine (200 ,ug/ml) represses argS+ cells but does not repress argS cells. In this situation, argS bacteria probably contain an even higher pool of free canavanine, since conversion of canavanine to canavanyl-tRNAarg and thence to protein is apparently limited at the synthetase step (Table 7). Recently, we reported that L-arginine repressed the level of hybridizable argECBH messenger RNA in E. coli to an amount 7- to 24-fold lower than that found in derepressed cells (30). Our data indicate that arginine acts at the transcriptional level (19). However, we found that added canavanine (200 ug/ml) had little or no effect on reducing-the level of hybridizable argECBH messenger RNA in either argS or argS+ strains (30). The repression of the level of translatable messenger RNA for the arginine enzymes by canavanine shown in this report appears to contradict our hybridizablehybridizable data. Also, as observed by others (5, 15), arginine apparently signals repression normally in all argS strains tested so far, even when the level of charged tRNAarg remains constant at 20% with or without added arginine in the growth medium. However, these discrepancies would be predicted by a dual model in which both canavanine and arginine exert control upon the translation of arginine messenger RNA, mediated by some function of arginyl-tRNA synthetase, while arginine but not canavanine represses transcription of new messenger RNA. Lavelle presented evidence suggesting that the arginine regulon (20) and the tryptophan operon (21) are under dual control by both a transcriptional and a translational mechanism. Indeed, Vogel et al. (38) have reviewed the indirect evidence that led them to propose a translational control model for the arginine regulon, that they suggest may operate in conjunction with transcriptional control.
Perl Molson - 18 Jan 2006 08:13 GMT http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1265433
A comparative study of arginase and canavanase http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1265433&blobtype=pdf
Perl Molson - 19 Jan 2006 11:21 GMT The toxicity of canavanine to a non-producer species ranging from bacteria to insects, to plants and mammalian cells has been extensively described. Canavanine binds to nearly every enzyme that utilizes arginine. The mechanism of its toxicity has, however, been localized to its incorporation into proteins giving rise to functionally aberrant polypeptides. The loss or reduction in activity in canavanine-containing proteins has been observed for antibacterial proteins and for lysozyme into which canavanine had been randomly incorporated. Canavanine containing proteins are also preferentially degraded, in vivo. Allende and Allende in the '60s first documented the attachment of canavanine to tRNAArg by the rat liver arginyl-tRNA synthetase.
http://www.biologie.uni-freiburg.de/data/bio3/igloi/Accuracy.htm
> I don't know if you've followed my ideeas regarding L-canavanine > topical [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Perl von Molson Tim Fitzmaurice - 23 Jan 2006 16:22 GMT I think it has problems....
> The ideea was that, when active, the herpes virus may envelope itself > in > L-canavanine(normally it uses L-Arginine and they are alike) Yes but thats the basis for lysine, and we know the long list of issues there, the 'it'll do it in the test tube but what's it do, if anything in life'. It falls into the same pits and traps, with on the basis above no benefit over lysine which has more work done already.
> and some > virions, returning to the neuronal ganglia > will de-envelope the "L-canavanine coat" and releasing inside the > ganglia > perhaps an Oxygen Ion If it did it would take out non regenerating neuronal cells (BAD thing). There wasnt anything to suggest it would do enough of it....remember the antioxidants are some of the fastest human enzymes and you are sticking the thing in with an antioxidant anyway so it cant be a continuous effect. THe problem is this doesnt happen until the protein is broken down and thats away from the nucleus where the DNA is.
> thus disturbing the mechanism used by virus to > get reactivated from the latent state, making it unable to reappear on > the shedding areas. Reactivation is LONG LONG LONG time after any reinfection assuming that happens....another problem with the idea...the basic production mechanism sends the virus out to do its thing or 'die'. Cell load can increase but it seems more likely thats copies failing to go out. THe event of deenveloping and reactivatio are biochemically to far apart.
Thats the ideas that leap to mind very fast - sorry but that mechanism you suggested just has no legs for me...and if you are looking at it as a competitive amino acid, then its back to lysine and the arguments there.
Tim -- When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart ICQ: 5178568
Perl Molson - 25 Jan 2006 04:24 GMT > I think it has problems.... > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > life'. It falls into the same pits and traps, with on the basis above no > benefit over lysine which has more work done already. Well, you see, Lysine is not L-Canavanine, even though, together with Arginine they are similar.
It seems herpes cannot envelop itself in Lysine; my hope is, it can envelop itself in Canavanine.
> > and some > > virions, returning to the neuronal ganglia [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > If it did it would take out non regenerating neuronal cells (BAD thing). Why would it take out the neuronal cell? Hopefully it won't. The process of interupting herpes viruses from reactivation from their latent states, doesn't imply eventually, that the whole cell will be damaged. Maybe a single dna sequence or protein syntesis malfunctional will be enough for this.
That ONE and perhaps ONLY disturbance at the DNA level will cause the herpes virus to become unable to get reactivated (that's what I am hoping).
> There wasnt anything to suggest it would do enough of it....remember the > antioxidants are some of the fastest human enzymes this is the good thing; without being fast enough, eventually, my theory wouldn't work.
and you are sticking
> the thing in with an antioxidant anyway so it cant be a continuous > effect. my theory goes about an interuption at the DNA level, you don't require
a continuous effect; let's say that the nervous system is like Christmas LED-lights connected to a multipurpose transformer at 12V; if you change the voltage at 6 V, the LED will stop producing light; this change of voltage works like the antioxidant's effect in the genes of the neuronal ganglia.
> THe problem is this doesnt happen until the protein is broken down and > thats away from the nucleus where the DNA is. see above
> > thus disturbing the mechanism used by virus to > > get reactivated from the latent state, making it unable to reappear on [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it seems more likely thats copies failing to go out. THe event of > deenveloping and reactivatio are biochemically to far apart. Sure, but the same virion will travel all along the axon, enveloped in Canavanine; a few hours, perhaps?
> Thats the ideas that leap to mind very fast - sorry but that mechanism you > suggested just has no legs for me...and if you are looking at it as a > competitive amino acid, then its back to lysine and the arguments there. The time will tell, I guess; if it's a viable method, it will be a breakthrough in the field of herpes treatments.
Since I've used mashed alfalfa (powdered from an alfalfa pill) in vitamin E oil from Wheat Germ (a natural source of vitamin E) topically, I haven't had since any signs of herpes activity whatsoever, no matter how persistently I've tried to use one of my old triggers: eating peanuts, wallnuts, cashews, other nuts, citric foods, such as oranges, grapefruits, etc, exhaustion from physical exercise, not sleeping nights for 2 or 3 months, exposing to wind, UV, cold, even a little trauma on the lips (by accident).
Perl von Molson
> Tim > -- > When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart > ICQ: 5178568 Tim Fitzmaurice - 25 Jan 2006 08:12 GMT > Well, you see, Lysine is not L-Canavanine, even though, together with > Arginine > they are similar. Yes but you are trying to get them to do the same things - at least in th mechanism you proposed. So they share their problems.
Anything could theoretically do something different thats unknown but its impossible to quantify that and drugs that work like that tend to get spotted accidentaly...or in th eprocess of looking at something else (eg Viagra and resiquimod in their proposed areas were used for different things than their final testing)
> It seems herpes cannot envelop itself in Lysine; my hope is, it can > envelop itself in Canavanine. The amino acid will get incorporated into proteins rather than forming a coat itself....is that what you meant?
>>> and some >>> virions, returning to the neuronal ganglia [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Why would it take out the neuronal cell? Because thats what oxidative damage by reactive species of atom do....kill cells when you get enough of it. THere's nothing in the idea you proposed to target a specific area of virus only. You said as it uncoated which is a fairly wide area of cell biochemistry getting exposed. Even if it was the final stage you would be exposing the host DNA and could get anything there as well....bad thing to happen.
> The process of interupting herpes viruses from reactivation from their > latent states, > doesn't imply eventually, that the whole cell will be damaged. If you get it right sure - but you need some basic information that you might be getting it right to proceed...plus again why the idea that you get reactive oxygens getting released in that way...
> That ONE and perhaps ONLY disturbance at the DNA level will > cause the herpes virus to become unable to get reactivated (that's what > I am hoping). Yes but is it host or viral factors that are the switch? The big thing that keeps latency is the LAT transcription - knock out that DNA and it will stay lytic...effectively the system appears to be a suppressive one, where a positive signal keeps the virus latent, taking out or interfering with that signal will release the virus - not suppress it...thats the biggest problem
>> There wasnt anything to suggest it would do enough of it....remember the >> antioxidants are some of the fastest human enzymes > > this is the good thing; without being fast enough, eventually, my > theory wouldn't work. Umm your idea relies on reactive oxygens - antixoidants being fast means they clear them up....how is that a good thing for the idea?
> my theory goes about an interuption at the DNA level, you don't require > > a continuous effect; The current understanding of latency suggests that it does in fact require a constant signal to keep the latent state going. So its not so much a signal to go latent, but a lack of singal releases it. THats going to cause more problems for your idea than anything else.
> LED will stop producing light; this change of voltage works like the > antioxidant's > effect in the genes of the neuronal ganglia. Sorry that last bit makes no sense to me - antioxidants would protect the DNA from oxidative damage not interact with them.
>> thats away from the nucleus where the DNA is. > > see above Signal is in the nucleus - you need to be there to play with the signals...
>> Reactivation is LONG LONG LONG time after any reinfection assuming that
> Sure, but the same virion will travel all along the axon, enveloped in > Canavanine; a few hours, perhaps? A few hours is still a short time....reactivation occurs way after any protein part of the virus is long gone...it occurs in the stage where all thats left of the virus is its nucleic acid in the nucleus of the host. Both envelope proteins and capsid proteins have disassembled and been taken away fro degradation elsewhere.
Tim -- When playing rugby, its not the winning that counts, but the taking apart ICQ: 5178568
Perl Molson - 05 Feb 2006 01:07 GMT Tim, thanks for answering, however, at this point I need to study more in order to understand this complex issues.
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