Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Herpes / September 2005
Phytoestrogens vs. estrogen from Peanuts, Fennel seeds?
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Perl Molson - 07 Sep 2005 14:33 GMT Indeed, as I've previously wrote, peanuts contain estrogen, as well as fennel seeds.
I've noticed that these 2 (foods/herbs) are the greatest trigger of herpes activity in my body, by far.
My revelation came today finally after quite awhile during which I was trying to understand how to cope with this problem.
I've realised that I shoud check for some foods/herbs that has estrogen-lowering properties they are called phytoestrogens, and I've found so far that red-clover and black-cohosh.
Ironically, I've never used these 2 herbs before.
Note: for those that will say that peanuts have high arginine content and that is why it is a trigger of herpes activity, I have to mention that,
although chocolate, orange juice etc doesn't bother me whatsoever regarding the herpes activity (I can drink orange juice for a month on a daily basis ( and I am talking in here litters of it) and it doesn't bother me at all; same with chocolate, etc).
This may be, really, my greatest discovery, so far, in the field of herpes simplex treatments.
Perl von Molson
Perl Molson - 07 Sep 2005 14:44 GMT Estrogen-Lowering Herbs
"One of the biggest reasons that women get into trouble with breast cancer is that they have too much estrogen floating around in their bodies," says Dr. Brett.
One way to reduce free-floating estrogen is by following the dietary guidelines for breast cancer prevention mentioned earlier. In addition, Dr. Brett notes, there are some natural substances that will help to reduce estrogen levels. Your key allies are called phytoestrogens.
Phytoestrogens are simply the estrogens that occur naturally in plants. When you eat fruits and vegetables that contain those compounds, they act as a weak form of estrogen in your body. A woman's cells have specific receptor sites that are prepared to accept estrogen, and when the phytoestrogens come by, they move into those sites, taking the place of the body's estrogens. Because the phytoestrogens have taken the receptor spots, your body's much stronger estrogen has nowhere to go and is excreted as waste.
Researchers at the Royal Hospital for Women in New South Wales, Australia, reviewed all the studies conducted between 1980 and 1995 concerning the effect of phytoestrogens. They concluded that phyto estrogens were among the factors that protect vegetarians against breast cancer.
One of the most powerful phytoestrogens is soy. Women in Asian countries who consume a lot of soy products have much lower rates of breast cancer than women who eat a Western diet. Researchers have observed that rates of breast cancer among Asian women increase significantly when those women switch from an oriental to a Western diet.
Eating foods like tofu that are made with soy is a great idea, but if you're not fond of them, you can try taking genistein capsules, says Dr. Brett. Genistein is believed to be one of the active ingredients in soy, and as such, it can impart some of the same estrogen-reducing benefits.
Even better, genistein can prevent tumors from getting a foothold. Tumors need blood to grow. To get that blood, they send out biochemical signals that trick the body into building blood vessels to supply them. If you can stop a tumor from getting blood, it will starve and die. Genistein is believed to be capable of stopping blood vessels that supply tumors from being produced.
If you decide to try genistein, you can find it as a supplement in health food stores. A typical dose is 45 milligrams a day.
Red clover and black cohosh are two herbs that are also phytoestrogens that work to reduce potentially dangerous levels of estrogen.
"Red clover is an old, old cancer remedy," says Matthew Wood, a professional member of the American Herbalists Guild in Minnetrista, Minnesota, and author of The Book of Herbal Wisdom. "It works to break down tumors and keep cancer from spreading. Like soy, red clover contains genistein."
If you are taking a number of different supplements to help prevent cancer, follow the directions on the labels of the products you buy, says Dr. Brett. A typical dose for black cohosh, for instance, is 40 milligrams twice a day.
The Power of Red Clover
Red clover not only contains vitamins and minerals, it may also have some power to balance the female hormone estrogen. "I think we're going to be hearing a lot about red clover in the coming years," says Jennifer Brett, N.D., a naturopathic doctor at the Wilton Naturopathic Center in Stratford, Connecticut.
Among the important vitamins and minerals that red clover offers are vita mins B and C, calcium, magnesium, and potassium. Because it can help balance estrogen, this herb is widely recommended for treating menstrual and menopausal problems. This capability also makes it a prime choice for women who are looking to prevent breast cancer, Dr. Brett says. It should never be taken during pregnancy, however.
Herbalists have found many other uses for red clover. It's one of the best alternative remedies for eczema and psoriasis in children, they say. Because it can help relax nerves, it's a good treatment for bronchitis, asthma, and whooping cough-conditions that can be relieved to an extent by relaxing the breathing muscles.
The use of red clover dates back centuries. The Chinese used the sap to help treat colds and influenza. It was a popular remedy in England and Germany and came with the American colonists when they immigrated from those countries.
On the American continent, it was taken up by many Native American tribes, including the Iroquois and Cherokee, who began using it to ease the discomforts of menopause. At the beginning of the twentieth century, it was often brewed into a tea to relieve spasmodic coughing and had a reputation as a "blood purifier." In Mennonite communities today, red clover is still widely used to relieve croup and whooping cough.
http://www.mothernature.com/Library/Bookshelf/Books/23/73.cfm
Name: Fennel Biological Name: Foeniculum vulgare
Umbelliferae Other Names: Large fennel, sweet fennel, wild fennel, finocchio, carosella, Florence fennel, Fennel Parts Used: root, seed Active Compounds:
The main active constituents, which includes the terpenoid anethole, are found in the volatile oil. Anethole and other terpenoids may have estrogen-like activity and inhibit spasms in smooth muscles, such as those in the intestinal tract. Recent studies have found fennel to possess diuretic, choleretic http://www.holistic-online.com/Herbal-Med/_Herbs/h55.htm
although, apples seem to contain estrogen. I need to do more reading on these issues.
Perl von Molson
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/estdep.htm
M.L.S. - 07 Sep 2005 15:26 GMT >Indeed, as I've previously wrote, peanuts contain estrogen, as well as >fennel seeds.
>I've noticed that these 2 (foods/herbs) are the greatest trigger of >herpes >activity in my body, by far.
>My revelation came today finally after quite awhile during which I was >trying to understand how to cope with this problem.
>I've realised that I shoud check for some foods/herbs that has >estrogen-lowering >properties they are called phytoestrogens, and I've found so far that >red-clover and black-cohosh. You were babbling about phytoestrogens back in February, Perlie.
In fact, on February 25th you said, "Fennel contains phytoestrogens".
?
Mike
>Ironically, I've never used these 2 herbs before.
>Note: for those that will say that peanuts have high arginine content >and >that is why it is a trigger of herpes activity, I have to mention that,
>although chocolate, orange juice etc doesn't bother me whatsoever >regarding the >herpes activity (I can drink orange juice for a month on a daily basis >( and I am talking in here litters of it) and >it doesn't bother me at all; same with chocolate, etc).
>This may be, really, my greatest discovery, so far, in the field of >herpes simplex treatments. Perl Molson - 07 Sep 2005 23:09 GMT Dang! Indeed, I didn't read carefully, my mistake.
Actually, I was looking for some foods/herbs that have antagonistic properties towards the estrogen-like substances such as phytoestrogens.
For example, phytoestrogens seems to be in the following foods/herbs:
peanuts, apples, tofu, red clover, black-cohosh.
However, I did not find so far what would be antaonistic for the phytoestrogens' estrogen.
Initially, I thought I did, my mistake. Sorry.
I still have to find such substances. For women it seems that these phytoestrogen works fine, but in my case my body doesn't seem to need such phytoestrogens and when I cannot avoid consumption of such foods/herbs, I must therefore find a remedy against the phytoestrogens.
So basically, it's a vicious circle, phytoestrogen is competing for the
natural estrogen in the women's bodies, which is a good thing for them, but in my case, as a male, phytoestrogen's natural estrogen is too much for my body and it causes debalances in my hormonal system.
If there is such thing as antagonistic to phytoestrogen, I need to find out. I don't know if a search on google will clarify, but I guess that's pretty much my best option for now; and of course, to check some related books hopefully soon.
Perl von Molson
> >Indeed, as I've previously wrote, peanuts contain estrogen, as well as > >fennel seeds. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > >This may be, really, my greatest discovery, so far, in the field of > >herpes simplex treatments. Grant - 08 Sep 2005 00:21 GMT Perl,
Phytoestrogens in foods increase the risk of estrogen cancers in women.
ar
>Dang! Indeed, I didn't read carefully, my mistake. > [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] >> >This may be, really, my greatest discovery, so far, in the field of >> >herpes simplex treatments. Perl Molson - 08 Sep 2005 06:22 GMT > Perl, > > Phytoestrogens in foods increase the risk of estrogen cancers in women. > > ar How did you came to this conclussion? I've just posted the contrary, Ar.
Phytoestrogens prevents estrogen related cancers in women from those studies.
> >Dang! Indeed, I didn't read carefully, my mistake. > > [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > >> >This may be, really, my greatest discovery, so far, in the field of > >> >herpes simplex treatments. Grant - 08 Sep 2005 11:38 GMT Perl,
The study you posted was flawed. You can find a study for and against almost everything. I don't need to come to the conclusion...it's a known fact.
ar
>> Perl, >> [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] >> >> >This may be, really, my greatest discovery, so far, in the field of >> >> >herpes simplex treatments. Grant - 08 Sep 2005 11:56 GMT http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/cancer.htm
http://www.fwhc.org/health/phytoestrogens.htm
http://www.wdxcyber.com/ncanc03.htm
http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/DE2B80A291241FBA85256A1E006E8B1E
Perl,
there are tons of studies online. It's been awhile since I've read the articles. The point of most of them is to approach with caution. Saying that eating a balanced diet is the good thing. Taking supplements of phytoestrogens is a bad thing.
ar
Perl Molson - 08 Sep 2005 16:37 GMT These are very good points. Although, I was not talking about taking suplemments.
One issue I've mentioned was that in my case, I have reached to the conclussion that perhaps, by taking too many herbs/foods that contain phytoestrogens, they seem to affect my body's level of herpes activity (even though minimal as I don't get anymore big troubles from the virus).
My point was, if so, are there any foods/herbs that would cancel the "estrogenic effect" (if there is such thing for a male!) that phytoestrogenic foods/herbs seem to cause to me.
Or, the only way to cut this out would be to simply avoid a diet that contain these above mentioned foods/herbs.
Which, in my case would be possible, no problem, it's just that I don't have any sort of reference to it.
I've got a list of such nutrients that may contain phytoestrogens and if everything works conform to this theory, it would be much more convenient than the previously follow-up from the theory of arginine/lysine ratio.
I am an arginine craver and I don't think I could had cope with lack of arginine in my diet, as I never actually did, during this time of being infected with H.V. for the past few years.
A diet rich in arginine is different than a diet rich in phytoestrogens and the latter one would be much more convinient to follow than the former,
in my case.
I can easily minimise the consumption of peanuts, fennel seeds (sometimes I use it in tea, is good for preventing colds and related throat problems, sometimes in food, for flavour), apples, and the following herbs (the list taken from your first posted link):
Agave root, black cohosh root, black currant, black haw, chasteberries, cramp bark, dong quai root, devil's club root, false unicorn root, ginseng root, groundsel herb, licorice, liferoot herb, motherwort herb, peony root, raspberry leaves, rose family plants (most parts), sage leaves, sarsaparilla root, saw palmetto berried, wild yam root, yarrow blossoms.
One interesting issue is that, I recall, reading about what herb shoud be avoided when having herpes and "dong quai root" comes to mind, it may be a coincidence, but it's getting interesting. I'll try to find the source where I've read about this last mentioned herb to see what other herbs they mention and perhaps, for what reason.
I am also aware that, licorice can bring hormonal imbalance, as well. Ginseng, also, I was aware of its estrogen-like component. I tend to use several of other herbs from the list in my teas, I kind of use a great combination of tea bags or other times bulk teas, simultaneously. Perl von Molson
> http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/cancer.htm > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > ar Grant - 08 Sep 2005 18:27 GMT Hi Perl,
I guess my point - which was clear in my own head only! is that phytoestrogens might not be healthy for women - which was one of the comments you made.
Now, what I find interesting in what you are saying is that your herpes may be caused by a hormonal imbalance in the body. Not just the estrogens. But an imbalance. This is why many women have their outbreaks during their periods. So, there's nothing new there! And, as I've mentioned before (but maybe not recently) hormonal changes can bring on herpes outbreaks.
My concern is that you can't take away things or add things without messing up the whole system. Which leads me back to my primary goal in life - to stress that eating a natural, balanced diet of whole foods is really the best way to deal with just about everything. ;) Raw food women don't generally experience menopause - because they are eating raw fruits and veggies which allow their bodies to remain balanced. Balance is always the key.
Those Asian women had a low rate of cancer not because they ate soy, but because they DIDN'T eat all the crap that we eat: foods loaded with cancer causing chemicals, beef and chicken and milk loaded with hormones, antibiotics, and pesticides. We keep looking for the "one" thing that will make us healthy but there isn't the "one" thing. It's a whole bunch of stuff eaten and NOT eaten.
Take care, ar
Perl Molson - 08 Sep 2005 22:26 GMT Well, "we keep looking for one thing"?
This is a rather sensitive issue, considering that a heck of a lot of people get to herpes activity from a simple fist full of peanuts or other things in minimal quantities.
As I've said in my previous post, for me, the theory with arginine/lysine ratio would be very impractical, if not impossible, and it simply out of my book.
However, a less restricted diet, such as the diet containing no phytonutrients, would be propably OK; not ideal, because some of these foods/herbs are important for health, but still ok.
Do you see my point, Ar? For example, eating peanuts is good for heart and they have vitamin E, but the problems caused by eating peanuts are greater than the benefits. Herpes activity can be, perhaps, worse for my body than the assimilation of some nutrients from peanuts.
The same can be said about fennel seeds and others.
So, basically, the balance is, too, disturbed, when taking such nutrients.
P.S. Yes, I am aware of the asian diet, women have over there. It's a bit off topic. Additionally, hormones do not stay in meats, if cooked. Not sure about others like pesticides, other toxines, etc. You see, by avoiding meats, you are at risk of developing arthritis, anemia, pain in the tendons that can last for decades. There are other problems.
You see, Ar, yourself, by having raw/vegetarian diet, you try to restrict yourself from certain nutrients important for your body. It's your own choice; I know it helps you with other problems though and it's your best choice eventually.(thyroid)
What I had in mind, was to try to eat peanuts as they are sold in bulk, and eat them only in energy bars. The same perhaps with some of the herbs I use, and even with apples (maybe apple juice is a better choice than apples).
I guess through trial and error, we will improve our specific diet. What works for me may not work for you and vice-versa.
I've meet people that after a single peanut can get into anaphylactic shock; I am far from it, and I think I can handle much better this situation with food problems. I don't know whether the immune system is involved in here, or the hormonal system, but hopefully by using alternate ways, I will be able to overcome the problems. In fact, all our lives we learn to improve our health.
Hmmm, fennel seeds... interesting stuff (in the tea form of sprinkled in food, they seem to be nasty at times - yeah, I should only use it when having
throat problems influenza related)
Perl von Molson
> Hi Perl, > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Take care, > ar Grant - 09 Sep 2005 00:46 GMT Hiya Perl,
>This is a rather sensitive issue, considering that >a heck of a lot of people get to herpes activity from a simple >fist full of peanuts or other things in minimal quantities. You are correct with that.
>As I've said in my previous post, for me, the theory with >arginine/lysine ratio >would be very impractical, if not impossible, and it simply out of my >book. Yes, you've mentioned that a few times.
>However, a less restricted diet, such as the diet containing >no phytonutrients, would be propably OK; not ideal, because >some of these foods/herbs are important for health, but still ok. Yes.
>Do you see my point, Ar? For example, eating peanuts is good for >heart and they have vitamin E, but the problems caused by eating >peanuts >are greater than the benefits. Herpes activity can be, perhaps, worse >for >my body than the assimilation of some nutrients from peanuts. Yes, and you can probably get those same health benefits by eating something else - not necessarily peanuts. Peanuts are a no-no for raw foodists. Something about mold, etc.
>The same can be said about fennel seeds and others. Yes.
>So, basically, the balance is, too, disturbed, when taking such >nutrients. Maybe. For instance, if you cut dairy products out of your diet, then you must make sure to increase another calcium source, like dark leafy greens. So, there is still balance, but just different items providing that balance.
>P.S. Yes, I am aware of the asian diet, women have over there. It's a >bit off topic. Additionally, hormones do not stay in meats, if cooked. Where did you hear that? I'm not sure if that's true.
>Not sure about >others like pesticides, other toxines, etc. >You see, by avoiding meats, you are at risk of developing >arthritis, anemia, pain in the tendons that can last for decades. >There are other problems. When I gave up meat, my arthritis went away and my chronic pain in my tendons and soft tissue improved. I truly believe that meat is not necessary for a healthy diet - but that's because I'm a vegetarian. :) When I ate meat I was sick. I gave up meat, and I no longer was sick.
>You see, Ar, yourself, by having raw/vegetarian diet, you try to >restrict yourself from certain nutrients important for your body. >It's your own choice; I know it helps you with other problems though >and it's your best choice eventually.(thyroid) I'm not sure if I've actually given up nutrients. I increased my intake of other foods that contain those nutrients. My protein intake is less and B12, of course. But I can't think of anything else. A friend of mine gave up all dairy - hence my example above. But after a month, she looked HORRIBLE. Why? Because she didn't increase another source of calcium. Whereas I gave up dairy (mostly) but increased dark leafy greens so my calcium level is actually quite good.
>What I had in mind, was to try to eat peanuts as they are sold in >bulk, and eat them only in energy bars. The same perhaps with some of >the herbs I use, and even with apples (maybe apple juice is a better >choice than apples). I think it is always best to eat fruits whole as opposed to juice. The fiber is good for you. :)
>I guess through trial and error, we will improve our specific diet. >What works for me may not work for you and vice-versa. Absolutely. I hope you understand that all I really want is for you to be healthy.
>I've meet people that after a single peanut can get into >anaphylactic shock; I used to be allergic to peanuts. :)
>I am far from it, and I think I can handle much >better [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >ways, I will be able to overcome the problems. >In fact, all our lives we learn to improve our health. Let's hope we learn to improve our health!! That's what I'm striving for.
>Hmmm, fennel seeds... interesting stuff (in the tea form of sprinkled >in food, >they seem to be nasty at times - yeah, I should only use it when having >throat problems influenza related) I've never tried them, actually.
Talk to you later.
ar
Perl Molson - 10 Sep 2005 09:10 GMT Firstly, regarding the hormones from meats that they do not stay after the meet is cooked, you can read lots of such related informations on line, such as:
"Hormones Increase Beef Quality
Hormones are produced naturally by all plants and animals including humans. Growth promotants contain estrogen-like hormones which add to the animal's own natural hormone production. The hormones increase beef quality by directing growth towards muscle and away from fat, allowing feed to be converted more efficiently to meat.
Hormone implants are placed under the skin of the ear, an inedible part of the carcass. The pellets dissolve slowly over a period of time and add to the amount of hormone naturally present. There is no need to be concerned about hormone residues in meat as only tiny quantities remain. For example, a 100 gram (3? oz.) serving of steak from a steer treated with growth hormones contains about 1.9 nanograms of estrogen. (A nanogram is one-billionth of a gram.) The same amount of steak from an untreated steer contains 1.2 nanograms - a difference of only 0.7 billionth of a gram! Compare this to a 100 gram (3? oz.) serving of cabbage which can contain up to 2,400 nanograms of naturally occurring estrogen, 1200 times more than that serving of beef.
Synthetic growth hormones are not allowed to be used in raising hogs, poultry and dairy animals. However, these animals do contain natural estrogen (as do some vegetables). " http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/homeec/cbe02s01.html
http://www.acsh.org/publications/pubID.110/pub_detail.asp
I cannot find right now an exact article (about hormones and meat) but if you wish you will certainly get to one of those on google or such.
Regarding the other points from the discussion, I can only say that in a reasonable quantity, all the foods that have phytoestrogens can bring benefits to the human body.
They seem to be quite powerful and the ideal ammount may be hard to define.
I will have to cut back on them, that's pretty much all that I can do. There are no known to me methods, to decrease the ammount of phytoestrogens. Nothing of that sort, such as what Lysine is for Arginine.
Perl von Molson
> Hiya Perl, > [quoted text clipped - 108 lines] > > ar Grant - 10 Sep 2005 12:49 GMT Hi Perl,
I believe that hormone bit you posted is a crock of bull. So to speak. But that's okay. I see children maturing at a much younger age than they did when I was growing up. I believe it to be because of the hormones in our foods. Everything that is done to our food supply is done to us as well.
ar
Perl Molson - 10 Sep 2005 17:46 GMT That's your opinion and I respect that. Honestly, I do not know the cause of the problems. But anyway, that's a bit off topic. In this topic I was talking about phytoestrogens. My personal opinion is still, that we cannot get hormones from meat consumption (and I don't want to debate this issue, Ar), and I am looking for plant estrogens, namely phytoestrogens.
Unfortunatelly, I did not find any foods/herbs that would diminish the mentioned effects of phytoestrogens due to their consumption.
Perl von Molson
> Hi Perl, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ar Perl Molson - 11 Sep 2005 08:46 GMT What do you know about the fermented foods? Wine, cheeses, beer, yogourt seem to be such foods/drinks Tempeh is made fermented soybeans and grain. Tempeh can be marinated and grilled and added to soups, casseroles or chili. http://www.youngwomenshealth.org/soy.html
The intestinal flora, the intestinal permeabity are also important issues, I reckon. I've figured, when I sprinkle cardamom seeds over my coffee, I can tollerate it better.
Perl von Molson
Grant - 11 Sep 2005 10:34 GMT Fermented foods are supposedly very important to a healthy diet. However, I am talking about fermented raw foods and not wine, cheese, beer, etc. Many people do their own fermenting and there are entire groups dedicated to it. Kefir is one of those all important things according to them. I tried to do some fermenting but I failed.
I've been told that fermented soy is much better for you than unfermented soy. But I'm still allergic to it.
Yes, intestinal flora is very important. Especially if suffering from a yeast overgrowth.
ar
>What do you know about the fermented foods? >Wine, cheeses, beer, yogourt seem to be such foods/drinks [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Perl von Molson Perl Molson - 15 Sep 2005 08:11 GMT These are very good points, you've added. When picking-up the stuff from a wider variety, it's nice to know which works best for your health.
Perl von Molson
> Fermented foods are supposedly very important to a healthy diet. However, I am > talking about fermented raw foods and not wine, cheese, beer, etc. Many people [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > > >Perl von Molson
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