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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Herpes / September 2005

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Phytoestrogens vs. estrogen from Peanuts, Fennel seeds?

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Perl Molson - 07 Sep 2005 14:33 GMT
Indeed, as I've previously wrote, peanuts contain estrogen, as well as
fennel seeds.

I've noticed that these 2 (foods/herbs) are the greatest trigger of
herpes
activity in my body, by far.

My revelation came today finally after quite awhile during which I was
trying to understand how to cope with this problem.

I've realised that I shoud check for some foods/herbs that has
estrogen-lowering
properties they are called phytoestrogens, and I've found so far that
red-clover and black-cohosh.

Ironically, I've never used these 2 herbs before.

Note: for those that will say that peanuts have high arginine content
and
that is why it is a trigger of herpes activity, I have to mention that,

although chocolate, orange juice etc doesn't bother me whatsoever
regarding the
herpes activity (I can drink orange juice for a month on a daily basis
( and I am talking in here litters of it) and
it doesn't bother me at all; same with chocolate, etc).

This may be, really, my greatest discovery, so far, in the field of
herpes simplex treatments.

Perl von Molson
Perl Molson - 07 Sep 2005 14:44 GMT
Estrogen-Lowering Herbs

"One of the biggest reasons that women get into trouble with breast
cancer is that they have too much estrogen floating around in their
bodies," says Dr. Brett.

One way to reduce free-floating estrogen is by following the dietary
guidelines for breast cancer prevention mentioned earlier. In addition,
Dr. Brett notes, there are some natural substances that will help to
reduce estrogen levels. Your key allies are called phytoestrogens.

Phytoestrogens are simply the estrogens that occur naturally in plants.
When you eat fruits and vegetables that contain those compounds, they
act as a weak form of estrogen in your body. A woman's cells have
specific receptor sites that are prepared to accept estrogen, and when
the phytoestrogens come by, they move into those sites, taking the
place of the body's estrogens. Because the phytoestrogens have taken
the receptor spots, your body's much stronger estrogen has nowhere to
go and is excreted as waste.

Researchers at the Royal Hospital for Women in New South Wales,
Australia, reviewed all the studies conducted between 1980 and 1995
concerning the effect of phytoestrogens. They concluded that phyto
estrogens were among the factors that protect vegetarians against
breast cancer.

One of the most powerful phytoestrogens is soy. Women in Asian
countries who consume a lot of soy products have much lower rates of
breast cancer than women who eat a Western diet. Researchers have
observed that rates of breast cancer among Asian women increase
significantly when those women switch from an oriental to a Western
diet.

Eating foods like tofu that are made with soy is a great idea, but if
you're not fond of them, you can try taking genistein capsules, says
Dr. Brett. Genistein is believed to be one of the active ingredients in
soy, and as such, it can impart some of the same estrogen-reducing
benefits.

Even better, genistein can prevent tumors from getting a foothold.
Tumors need blood to grow. To get that blood, they send out biochemical
signals that trick the body into building blood vessels to supply them.
If you can stop a tumor from getting blood, it will starve and die.
Genistein is believed to be capable of stopping blood vessels that
supply tumors from being produced.

If you decide to try genistein, you can find it as a supplement in
health food stores. A typical dose is 45 milligrams a day.

Red clover and black cohosh are two herbs that are also phytoestrogens
that work to reduce potentially dangerous levels of estrogen.

"Red clover is an old, old cancer remedy," says Matthew Wood, a
professional member of the American Herbalists Guild in Minnetrista,
Minnesota, and author of The Book of Herbal Wisdom. "It works to break
down tumors and keep cancer from spreading. Like soy, red clover
contains genistein."

If you are taking a number of different supplements to help prevent
cancer, follow the directions on the labels of the products you buy,
says Dr. Brett. A typical dose for black cohosh, for instance, is 40
milligrams twice a day.

The Power of Red Clover

Red clover not only contains vitamins and minerals, it may also have
some power to balance the female hormone estrogen. "I think we're
going to be hearing a lot about red clover in the coming years," says
Jennifer Brett, N.D., a naturopathic doctor at the Wilton Naturopathic
Center in Stratford, Connecticut.

Among the important vitamins and minerals that red clover offers are
vita mins B and C, calcium, magnesium, and potassium. Because it can
help balance estrogen, this herb is widely recommended for treating
menstrual and menopausal problems. This capability also makes it a
prime choice for women who are looking to prevent breast cancer, Dr.
Brett says. It should never be taken during pregnancy, however.

Herbalists have found many other uses for red clover. It's one of the
best alternative remedies for eczema and psoriasis in children, they
say. Because it can help relax nerves, it's a good treatment for
bronchitis, asthma, and whooping cough-conditions that can be
relieved to an extent by relaxing the breathing muscles.

The use of red clover dates back centuries. The Chinese used the sap to
help treat colds and influenza. It was a popular remedy in England and
Germany and came with the American colonists when they immigrated from
those countries.

On the American continent, it was taken up by many Native American
tribes, including the Iroquois and Cherokee, who began using it to ease
the discomforts of menopause. At the beginning of the twentieth
century, it was often brewed into a tea to relieve spasmodic coughing
and had a reputation as a "blood purifier." In Mennonite
communities today, red clover is still widely used to relieve croup and
whooping cough.

http://www.mothernature.com/Library/Bookshelf/Books/23/73.cfm

Name: Fennel
Biological Name: Foeniculum vulgare

Umbelliferae
Other Names: Large fennel, sweet fennel, wild fennel, finocchio,
carosella, Florence fennel, Fennel
Parts Used: root, seed
Active Compounds:

The main active constituents, which includes the terpenoid anethole,
are found in the volatile oil. Anethole and other terpenoids may have
estrogen-like activity and inhibit spasms in smooth muscles, such as
those in the intestinal tract. Recent studies have found fennel to
possess diuretic, choleretic
http://www.holistic-online.com/Herbal-Med/_Herbs/h55.htm

although, apples seem to contain estrogen.
I need to do more reading on these issues.

Perl von Molson

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/estdep.htm
M.L.S. - 07 Sep 2005 15:26 GMT
>Indeed, as I've previously wrote, peanuts contain estrogen, as well as
>fennel seeds.

>I've noticed that these 2 (foods/herbs) are the greatest trigger of
>herpes
>activity in my body, by far.

>My revelation came today finally after quite awhile during which I was
>trying to understand how to cope with this problem.

>I've realised that I shoud check for some foods/herbs that has
>estrogen-lowering
>properties they are called phytoestrogens, and I've found so far that
>red-clover and black-cohosh.

You were babbling about phytoestrogens back in February, Perlie.

In fact, on February 25th you said, "Fennel contains
phytoestrogens".

?

Mike

>Ironically, I've never used these 2 herbs before.

>Note: for those that will say that peanuts have high arginine content
>and
>that is why it is a trigger of herpes activity, I have to mention that,

>although chocolate, orange juice etc doesn't bother me whatsoever
>regarding the
>herpes activity (I can drink orange juice for a month on a daily basis
>( and I am talking in here litters of it) and
>it doesn't bother me at all; same with chocolate, etc).

>This may be, really, my greatest discovery, so far, in the field of
>herpes simplex treatments.
Perl Molson - 07 Sep 2005 23:09 GMT
Dang! Indeed, I didn't read carefully, my mistake.

Actually, I was looking for some foods/herbs that have antagonistic
properties
towards the estrogen-like substances such as phytoestrogens.

For example, phytoestrogens seems to be in the following foods/herbs:

peanuts, apples, tofu, red clover, black-cohosh.

However, I did not find so far what would be antaonistic
for the phytoestrogens' estrogen.

Initially, I thought I did, my mistake. Sorry.

I still have to find such substances.
For women it seems that these phytoestrogen works fine, but in my case
my body doesn't seem to need such phytoestrogens and when I cannot
avoid
consumption of such foods/herbs, I must therefore find a remedy against
the
phytoestrogens.

So basically, it's a vicious circle, phytoestrogen is competing for the

natural estrogen in the women's bodies, which is a good thing for them,
but
in my case, as a male, phytoestrogen's natural estrogen is too much for
my body and it causes debalances in my hormonal system.

If there is such thing as antagonistic to phytoestrogen, I need to find
out.
I don't know if a search on google will clarify, but I guess that's
pretty much
my best option for now; and  of course, to check some related books
hopefully soon.

Perl von Molson

> >Indeed, as I've previously wrote, peanuts contain estrogen, as well as
> >fennel seeds.
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> >This may be, really, my greatest discovery, so far, in the field of
> >herpes simplex treatments.
Grant - 08 Sep 2005 00:21 GMT
Perl,

Phytoestrogens in foods increase the risk of estrogen cancers in women.  

ar

>Dang! Indeed, I didn't read carefully, my mistake.
>
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>> >This may be, really, my greatest discovery, so far, in the field of
>> >herpes simplex treatments.
Perl Molson - 08 Sep 2005 06:22 GMT
> Perl,
>
> Phytoestrogens in foods increase the risk of estrogen cancers in women.
>
> ar

How did you came to this conclussion? I've just posted the
contrary, Ar.

Phytoestrogens prevents estrogen related cancers in women from those
studies.

> >Dang! Indeed, I didn't read carefully, my mistake.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
> >> >This may be, really, my greatest discovery, so far, in the field of
> >> >herpes simplex treatments.
Grant - 08 Sep 2005 11:38 GMT
Perl,

The study you posted was flawed.  You can find a study for and against almost
everything.  I don't need to come to the conclusion...it's a known fact.

ar

>> Perl,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 85 lines]
>> >> >This may be, really, my greatest discovery, so far, in the field of
>> >> >herpes simplex treatments.
Grant - 08 Sep 2005 11:56 GMT
http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/cancer.htm

http://www.fwhc.org/health/phytoestrogens.htm

http://www.wdxcyber.com/ncanc03.htm

http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/DE2B80A291241FBA85256A1E006E8B1E

Perl,

there are tons of studies online.  It's been awhile since I've read the
articles.  The point of most of them is to approach with caution.  Saying that
eating a balanced diet is the good thing.  Taking supplements of phytoestrogens
is a bad thing.

ar
Perl Molson - 08 Sep 2005 16:37 GMT
These are very good points.
Although, I was not talking about taking suplemments.

One issue I've mentioned was that in my case, I have reached to the
conclussion
that perhaps, by taking too many herbs/foods that contain
phytoestrogens,
they seem to affect my body's level of herpes activity (even though
minimal
as I don't get anymore big troubles from the virus).

My point was, if so, are there any foods/herbs that would cancel the
"estrogenic effect" (if there is such thing for a male!) that
phytoestrogenic foods/herbs seem to cause to me.

Or, the only way to cut this out would be to simply avoid a diet
that contain these above mentioned foods/herbs.

Which, in my case would be possible, no problem, it's just that I don't
have any sort of reference to it.

I've got a list of such nutrients that may contain phytoestrogens and
if everything works conform to this theory, it would be much more
convenient
than the previously follow-up from the theory of arginine/lysine ratio.

I am an arginine craver and I don't think I could had cope with
lack of arginine in my diet, as I never actually did, during this time
of
being infected with H.V. for the past few years.

A diet rich in arginine is different than a diet rich in phytoestrogens
and
the latter one would be much more convinient to follow than the former,

in my case.

I can easily minimise the consumption of peanuts, fennel seeds
(sometimes I use it in tea, is good for preventing colds and related
throat problems, sometimes in food, for flavour), apples, and the
following herbs (the list taken from your first posted link):

Agave root, black cohosh root, black currant, black haw, chasteberries,
cramp bark, dong quai root, devil's club root, false unicorn root,
ginseng root, groundsel herb, licorice, liferoot herb, motherwort herb,
peony root, raspberry leaves, rose family plants (most parts), sage
leaves, sarsaparilla root, saw palmetto berried, wild yam root, yarrow
blossoms.

One interesting issue is that, I recall, reading about what herb shoud
be avoided when having herpes and "dong quai root" comes to mind, it
may be a
coincidence, but it's getting interesting.
I'll try to find the source where I've read about this last mentioned
herb to
see what other herbs they mention and perhaps, for what reason.

I am also aware that, licorice can bring hormonal imbalance, as well.
Ginseng, also, I was aware of its estrogen-like component.
I tend to use several of other herbs from the list in my teas, I kind
of
use a great combination of tea bags or other times bulk teas,
simultaneously.
Perl von Molson

> http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/cancer.htm
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> ar
Grant - 08 Sep 2005 18:27 GMT
Hi Perl,

I guess my point - which was clear in my own head only! is that phytoestrogens
might not be healthy for women - which was one of the comments you made.

Now, what I find interesting in what you are saying is that your herpes may be
caused by a hormonal imbalance in the body.  Not just the estrogens.  But an
imbalance.  This is why many women have their outbreaks during their periods.
So, there's nothing new there!  And, as I've mentioned before (but maybe not
recently) hormonal changes can bring on herpes outbreaks.

My concern is that you can't take away things or add things without messing up
the whole system.  Which leads me back to my primary goal in life - to stress
that eating a natural, balanced diet of whole foods is really the best way to
deal with just about everything. ;)  Raw food women don't generally experience
menopause - because they are eating raw fruits and veggies which allow their
bodies to remain balanced.  Balance is always the key.

Those Asian women had a low rate of cancer not because they ate soy, but because
they DIDN'T eat all the crap that we eat: foods loaded with cancer causing
chemicals, beef and chicken and milk loaded with hormones, antibiotics, and
pesticides.  We keep looking for the "one" thing that will make us healthy but
there isn't the "one" thing.  It's a whole bunch of stuff eaten and NOT eaten.

Take care,
ar
Perl Molson - 08 Sep 2005 22:26 GMT
Well, "we keep looking for one thing"?

This is a rather sensitive issue, considering that
a heck of a lot of people get to herpes activity from a simple
fist full of peanuts or other things in minimal quantities.

As I've said in my previous post, for me, the theory with
arginine/lysine ratio
would be very impractical, if not impossible, and it simply out of my
book.

However, a less restricted diet, such as the diet containing
no phytonutrients, would be propably OK; not ideal, because
some of these foods/herbs are important for health, but still ok.

Do you see my point, Ar? For example, eating peanuts is good for
heart and they have vitamin E, but the problems caused by eating
peanuts
are greater than the benefits. Herpes activity can be, perhaps, worse
for
my body than the assimilation of some nutrients from peanuts.

The same can be said about fennel seeds and others.

So, basically, the balance is, too, disturbed, when taking such
nutrients.

P.S. Yes, I am aware of the asian diet, women have over there. It's a
bit off topic. Additionally, hormones do not stay in meats, if cooked.
Not sure about
others like pesticides, other toxines, etc.
You see, by avoiding meats, you are at risk of developing
arthritis, anemia, pain in the tendons that can last for decades.
There are other problems.

You see, Ar, yourself, by having raw/vegetarian diet, you try to
restrict yourself from certain nutrients important for your body.
It's your own choice; I know it helps you with other problems though
and it's your best choice eventually.(thyroid)

What I had in mind, was to try to eat peanuts as they are sold in
bulk, and eat them only in energy bars. The same perhaps with some of
the herbs I use, and even with apples (maybe apple juice is a better
choice than apples).

I guess through trial and error, we will improve our specific diet.
What works for me may not work for you and vice-versa.

I've meet people that after a single peanut can get into
anaphylactic shock; I am far from it, and I think I can handle much
better
this situation with food problems. I don't know whether the immune
system
is involved in here, or the hormonal system, but hopefully by using
alternate
ways, I will be able to overcome the problems.
In fact, all our lives we learn to improve our health.

Hmmm, fennel seeds... interesting stuff (in the tea form of sprinkled
in food,
they seem to be nasty at times - yeah, I should only use it when having

throat problems influenza related)

Perl von Molson

> Hi Perl,
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Take care,
> ar
Grant - 09 Sep 2005 00:46 GMT
Hiya Perl,

>This is a rather sensitive issue, considering that
>a heck of a lot of people get to herpes activity from a simple
>fist full of peanuts or other things in minimal quantities.

You are correct with that.

>As I've said in my previous post, for me, the theory with
>arginine/lysine ratio
>would be very impractical, if not impossible, and it simply out of my
>book.

Yes, you've mentioned that a few times.  

>However, a less restricted diet, such as the diet containing
>no phytonutrients, would be propably OK; not ideal, because
>some of these foods/herbs are important for health, but still ok.

Yes.

>Do you see my point, Ar? For example, eating peanuts is good for
>heart and they have vitamin E, but the problems caused by eating
>peanuts
>are greater than the benefits. Herpes activity can be, perhaps, worse
>for
>my body than the assimilation of some nutrients from peanuts.

Yes, and you can probably get those same health benefits by eating something
else - not necessarily peanuts.  Peanuts are a no-no for raw foodists.
Something about mold, etc.

>The same can be said about fennel seeds and others.

Yes.

>So, basically, the balance is, too, disturbed, when taking such
>nutrients.

Maybe.  For instance, if you cut dairy products out of your diet, then you must
make sure to increase another calcium source, like dark leafy greens.  So, there
is still balance, but just different items providing that balance.

>P.S. Yes, I am aware of the asian diet, women have over there. It's a
>bit off topic. Additionally, hormones do not stay in meats, if cooked.

Where did you hear that?  I'm not sure if that's true.

>Not sure about
>others like pesticides, other toxines, etc.
>You see, by avoiding meats, you are at risk of developing
>arthritis, anemia, pain in the tendons that can last for decades.
>There are other problems.

When I gave up meat, my arthritis went away and my chronic pain in my tendons
and soft tissue improved.  I truly believe that meat is not necessary for a
healthy diet - but that's because I'm a vegetarian.  :)  When I ate meat I was
sick.  I gave up meat, and I no longer was sick.

>You see, Ar, yourself, by having raw/vegetarian diet, you try to
>restrict yourself from certain nutrients important for your body.
>It's your own choice; I know it helps you with other problems though
>and it's your best choice eventually.(thyroid)

I'm not sure if I've actually given up nutrients.  I increased my intake of
other foods that contain those nutrients.  My protein intake is less and B12, of
course.  But I can't think of anything else.  A friend of mine gave up all dairy
- hence my example above.  But after a month, she looked HORRIBLE.  Why?
Because she didn't increase another source of calcium.  Whereas I gave up dairy
(mostly) but increased dark leafy greens so my calcium level is actually quite
good.

>What I had in mind, was to try to eat peanuts as they are sold in
>bulk, and eat them only in energy bars. The same perhaps with some of
>the herbs I use, and even with apples (maybe apple juice is a better
>choice than apples).

I think it is always best to eat fruits whole as opposed to juice.  The fiber is
good for you.  :)

>I guess through trial and error, we will improve our specific diet.
>What works for me may not work for you and vice-versa.

Absolutely.  I hope you understand that all I really want is for you to be
healthy.

>I've meet people that after a single peanut can get into
>anaphylactic shock;

I used to be allergic to peanuts.  :)

>I am far from it, and I think I can handle much
>better
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>ways, I will be able to overcome the problems.
>In fact, all our lives we learn to improve our health.

Let's hope we learn to improve our health!!  That's what I'm striving for.  

>Hmmm, fennel seeds... interesting stuff (in the tea form of sprinkled
>in food,
>they seem to be nasty at times - yeah, I should only use it when having
>throat problems influenza related)

I've never tried them, actually.

Talk to you later.

ar
Perl Molson - 10 Sep 2005 09:10 GMT
Firstly, regarding the hormones from meats that they do not
stay after the meet is cooked, you can read lots of such related
informations
on line, such as:

"Hormones Increase Beef Quality

Hormones are produced naturally by all plants and animals including
humans. Growth promotants contain estrogen-like hormones which add to
the animal's own natural hormone production. The hormones increase beef
quality by directing growth towards muscle and away from fat, allowing
feed to be converted more efficiently to meat.

Hormone implants are placed under the skin of the ear, an inedible part
of the carcass. The pellets dissolve slowly over a period of time and
add to the amount of hormone naturally present. There is no need to be
concerned about hormone residues in meat as only tiny quantities
remain. For example, a 100 gram (3? oz.) serving of steak from a
steer treated with growth hormones contains about 1.9 nanograms of
estrogen. (A nanogram is one-billionth of a gram.) The same amount of
steak from an untreated steer contains 1.2 nanograms - a difference of
only 0.7 billionth of a gram! Compare this to a 100 gram (3? oz.)
serving of cabbage which can contain up to 2,400 nanograms of naturally
occurring estrogen, 1200 times more than that serving of beef.

Synthetic growth hormones are not allowed to be used in raising hogs,
poultry and dairy animals.  However, these animals do contain natural
estrogen (as do some vegetables). "
http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/homeec/cbe02s01.html

http://www.acsh.org/publications/pubID.110/pub_detail.asp

I cannot find right now an exact article (about hormones and meat) but
if you wish you
will certainly get to one of those on google or such.

Regarding the other points from the discussion, I can only say that
in a reasonable quantity, all the foods that have phytoestrogens
can bring benefits to the human body.

They seem to be quite powerful and the ideal ammount may be hard to
define.

I will have to cut back on them, that's pretty much all that I can do.
There are no known to me methods, to decrease the ammount of
phytoestrogens.
Nothing of that sort, such as  what Lysine is for Arginine.

Perl von Molson

> Hiya Perl,
>
[quoted text clipped - 108 lines]
>
> ar
Grant - 10 Sep 2005 12:49 GMT
Hi Perl,

I believe that hormone bit you posted is a crock of bull.  So to speak.  But
that's okay.  I see children maturing at a much younger age than they did when I
was growing up.  I believe it to be because of the hormones in our foods.
Everything that is done to our food supply is done to us as well.

ar
Perl Molson - 10 Sep 2005 17:46 GMT
That's your opinion and I respect that. Honestly, I do not know
the cause of the problems.
But anyway, that's a bit off topic. In this topic I was talking about
phytoestrogens. My personal opinion is still, that we cannot get
hormones from meat consumption (and I don't want to debate this issue,
Ar), and I am looking for plant estrogens, namely
phytoestrogens.

Unfortunatelly, I did not find any foods/herbs that would
diminish the mentioned effects of phytoestrogens due to their
consumption.

Perl von Molson

> Hi Perl,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> ar
Perl Molson - 11 Sep 2005 08:46 GMT
What do you know about the fermented foods?
Wine, cheeses, beer, yogourt seem to be such foods/drinks
Tempeh is made fermented soybeans and grain. Tempeh can be marinated
and grilled and added to soups, casseroles or chili.
http://www.youngwomenshealth.org/soy.html

The intestinal flora, the intestinal permeabity are also important
issues, I reckon.
I've figured, when I sprinkle cardamom seeds over my coffee, I can
tollerate it better.

Perl von Molson
Grant - 11 Sep 2005 10:34 GMT
Fermented foods are supposedly very important to a healthy diet.  However, I am
talking about fermented raw foods and not wine, cheese, beer, etc.  Many people
do their own fermenting and there are entire groups dedicated to it.  Kefir is
one of those all important things according to them.  I tried to do some
fermenting but I failed.

I've been told that fermented soy is much better for you than unfermented soy.  
But I'm still allergic to it.

Yes, intestinal flora is very important.  Especially if suffering from a yeast
overgrowth.

ar

>What do you know about the fermented foods?
>Wine, cheeses, beer, yogourt seem to be such foods/drinks
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Perl von Molson
Perl Molson - 15 Sep 2005 08:11 GMT
These are very good points, you've added.
When picking-up the stuff from a wider variety, it's nice to know which
works best for your health.

Perl von Molson

> Fermented foods are supposedly very important to a healthy diet.  However, I am
> talking about fermented raw foods and not wine, cheese, beer, etc.  Many people
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> >
> >Perl von Molson
 
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