Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / January 2009
Brain Fog and more; HCV plus Tx
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Cactus Jammies - 15 Jan 2009 16:23 GMT Hi all, Just call me happyface.
From: http://www.hcvadvocate.org/hcsp/articles/gish-2.html
Minimizing the Impact of Neuropsychiatric Effects During Chronic HCV Disease and Treatment
Robert G. Gish , M.D.
(To see the figures and illustrations in this article, please download the pdf version.)
New data are emerging that implicate direct effects of the hepatitis C virus (HCV) on the central nervous system, along with side effects of both peginterferon and ribavirin as causes of multiple symptoms during treatment of HCV. Neuropsychiatric symptoms are of great concern in patients with hepatitis C because they are common, may reduce quality of life, and can limit treatment adherence and effect the outcome of treatment. To improve patient well-being and the likelihood of successful anti-HCV therapy, it is critical that physicians screen patients for neuro-psychiatric symptoms and manage these problems and symptoms proactively.
Pre-existing neuro-psychiatric symptoms are common in hepatitis C patients. In fact, 35% to 57% of patients with chronic HCV infection may have depression upon diagnosis or before starting any therapy. Furthermore, new neuropsychiatric symptoms emerge in an additional 30% to 40% of patients receiving peginterferon / ribavirin treatment. Cognitive deficits, particularly those affecting concentration, memory, and psychomotor speed, have been identified in patients with even mild HCV infection as well.
The pathophysiology of these toxic effects of HCV remain poorly defined. One theory is that HCV may infect the brain via macrophage or microglial cells. Another is that toxins may accumulate in the blood secondary to impaired clearance by a cirrhotic liver, causing impaired cognition. Cirrhosis may be predictive of poorer cognitive function due to clinical or subclinical encephalopathy, and progressive hepatic injury in the HCV-infected patient without cirrhosis also may play a role in the development of neurocognitive problems although this is rarely seen in patients without significant fibrosis and portal hypertension. Antiserotonergic effects of interferon have been proposed as a mechanism in the development of interferon-related depression and may explain why patients symptoms from interferon therapy can be profoundly improved with SSRI type antidepressants.
A recent prospective cohort study found that although only 11% of patients treated with peginterferon/ribavirin met criteria for major depression, yet more than one third developed symptoms of moderate to severe depression during treatment. Whereas interferons are generally known to be associated with psychiatric side effects, this study was one of the first to identify a dose-related association between PEG interferon/ribavirin treatment and depression.
Due to the chronic nature and nonspecific symptoms of HCV infection, distinguishing the somatic complaints of disease chronicity from a depressive syndrome is a major clinical challenge. Patients with major depression often feel ill, experiencing somatic and/or cognitive symptoms and a perceived state of "brain fog" and other symptoms that impair the patients functional level. These symptoms can easily be confounded by the presence of a chronic HCV infection. Nonsomatic symptoms of depression may include low self-esteem, feelings of guilt, worthlessness, hopelessness, and in the most severe cases, suicidal ideation. Some depression screening tools-such as the Hospital Anxiety and Depression Scale (HADS)-are geared toward assessment of nonsomatic symptoms of depression, and may be useful in HCV-infected patients who exhibit symptoms of major depression. The Center for Epidemiologic Studies of Depression (CES-D) self-administered scoring sheet also may be useful in an office practice.
The impact of depression on the patient can be significant, causing irritability, fatigue, apathy, lack of concentration, and in extreme situations, suicidal ideation or suicide. It is therefore not surprising that depression can have a negative impact on adherence to anti-HCV therapy. Moreover, another prospective cohort study found a correlation between depression symptoms and clearance of HCV RNA at week 24, even after adjusting for ribavirin dose assignment, genotype, age, antidepressant usage, dose reduction of peginterferon or ribavirin, and knowledge of viral status during treatment. Periodic assessment for depression during treatment is imperative, with expert psychiatric referral provided as needed if signs and symptoms of depression progress during treatment.
Profound improvement can be achieved with antidepressant pharmacotherapy and formal psychotherapy for treatment of depression. There are no placebo-controlled studies evaluating the treatment of interferon-induced depression. An open-label trial of citalopram conducted in 15 patients with HCV infection demonstrated a significantly positive response in interferon-treated patients. Prophylactic therapy in patients with a recent or remote history of depression may be controversial; but recent studies have shown a benefit and proactive antidepressant therapy is strongly advised in clinical practice, both from this author's clinical experience and from surveys of practitioners who manage HCV treatment. Patients with major depression may also benefit from support groups, but this should not be a replacement for pharmacologic therapy and psychotherapy.
Pharmacologic guidelines for general treatment of neuropsychiatric disorders may offer the best approach to managing depression in the peginterferon-treated patient. These guidelines emphasize individualized selection of an agent, often exploiting the side-effect profile of the various medications available. For example, agents that promote sleep may be most appropriate for patients who have a primary sleep disturbance, whereas patients experiencing fatigue may benefit most from activating agents.
Patients with a history of major depression or significant depressive symptoms including history of suicide attempts, or bipolar disorder or psychosis, should be referred for expert psychiatric diagnosis and management prior to treatment initiation. Patients with a pre-existing history of bipolar disorder should be monitored closely while receiving interferon therapy, and, whenever possible, treated prophylactically with a mood stabilizer such as olanzapine or quetiapine (lithium or valproic acid can also be considered, with close follow-up). Any patient for whom the medical practitioner is not comfortable starting antidepressant therapy should be referred for clearance before starting anti-HCV treatment, and psychiatric follow-up should continue periodically during therapy.
In summary, neuropsychiatric symptoms are common in HCV-infected patients both at baseline and as side effects of peginterferon therapy. Without appropriate intervention, these symptoms can have serious consequences for the patient and can also limit adherence to, and therefore success of, antiviral therapy. Fortunately, depression and other neuropsychiatric side effects can generally be managed effectively with available pharmacologic therapies, thereby allowing patients to stay on anti-HCV therapy with the best chance of treatment success.
Important References
(truncated for brevity, go to hcvadvocate for long list of footnotes)
cactus jammies (mind of mush :)
kjoh - 16 Jan 2009 06:35 GMT On Jan 15, 9:23 am, "Cactus Jammies" <cactusjamm...@retinalcircus.orb> wrote:
> Hi all, > Just call me happyface. [quoted text clipped - 122 lines] > > cactus jammies (mind of mush :) ****************************************************************************** Hey you Mr Saguaro Pants :-) - hugs to you and stuff
Good find this article! The information is consistent with my own experience and the technical reading I have been doing for a few years now. Most docs really don't want to deal with hep C as anything other than a liver disease, but it is Oh so much more fun. Many of you might remember I had a mess of cognitive issues during tx and an MRI brain scan at the end of tx. It wasn't pretty. "Multiple areas of T2 hyperintensity" - maybe/probably ischemic vasculitis related to cryoglobulin molecule buildup at the blood brain barrier. No doc could say for sure and I wasn't up for a brain biopsy yeeeeha! No thankykindly. A followup scan a year later showed the situation was "unchanged." So the docs don't know if the brain pathology in the image is from the virus or the treatment. I will have another MRI in a year or so, and a second liver biopsy and go from there, I do have a couple docs here in town ( a neurologist and a rheumatologist) who are aware of these issues, if only superficially. So I do get some comfort from that. Meanwhile if I get into somekind of strokey flame- out event I suppose steroids would be the course of action. So stay tuned fellow Action Heros! Be Brave!
For the record I am geno 1a minimal inflammation and fibrosis. Hep c for thirty (?) years probably. My first round of Peg and Riba lasted 60 weeks and failed. I like to believe I have some time to wait for the upcoming new treatments. I don't feel too bad most of the time except for monstrous fatigue.
For those interested , here is a summary from a recent Neurology journal that sheds more light on these neuro and cognitive aspects of HCV. There is quite alot of high quality info out there - in the medical abstracts (pubmed.gov) if a person has the time and stomach to look into it.
The sun came out today and it felt like healing :-)) yes yes yes tweet Cheerios all! Kathy J.
Neurologic complications of hepatitis C Neurologist. 2008 May;14(3):151-6. Acharya JN, Pacheco VH.. Department of Neurology and Psychiatry, Saint Louis University School of Medicine, Saint Louis, Missouri 63104, USA. acharyaj@slu.edu
BACKGROUND: Hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection is a common and chronic disorder with numerous extrahepatic manifestations. We review the neurologic complications in this article. REVIEW SUMMARY: Neurologic complications can involve the peripheral or the central nervous system. The most frequently reported complication is a subacute, distal, symmetric, sensorimotor polyneuropathy in the presence of mixed cryoglobulinemia (MC). HCV infection is the most common cause of MC. In HCV-infected patients without MC, mononeuropathy or mononeuropathy multiplex is more common. Both ischemic and hemorrhagic strokes, probably related to MC and vasculitis, have been described. More recently, transverse myelopathy and cognitive impairment have been linked to HCV infection, but the association is less certain and needs to be confirmed in larger studies. HCV has also been reported as a possible cause of encephalomyelitis in some cases. Although there are no definite treatment guidelines, immunomodulating agents and antiviral therapy are most often used with favorable outcomes. CONCLUSIONS: HCV infection should be considered in the differential diagnosis of a variety of neurologic disorders. Further studies are necessary to establish the full spectrum of the neurologic complications, identify specific pathophysiologic mechanisms, and provide clear guidelines for management.
So there ya go.
Sara - 16 Jan 2009 16:34 GMT > On Jan 15, 9:23 am, "Cactus Jammies" <cactusjamm...@retinalcircus.orb> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 174 lines] > > - Show quoted text - woo hoo! welcome back KoJo!! you've been missed.
Sara
Sara - 16 Jan 2009 16:36 GMT > > On Jan 15, 9:23 am, "Cactus Jammies" <cactusjamm...@retinalcircus.orb> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 164 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Hmm, I wonder where my message went?
all I said was "welcome back KoJo! but still. sheesh!
Sara
Thip - 16 Jan 2009 17:25 GMT Welcome back, O Awesome One!
On Jan 15, 9:23 am, "Cactus Jammies" <cactusjamm...@retinalcircus.orb> wrote:
> Hi all, > Just call me happyface. [quoted text clipped - 148 lines] > > cactus jammies (mind of mush :) ****************************************************************************** Hey you Mr Saguaro Pants :-) - hugs to you and stuff
Good find this article! The information is consistent with my own experience and the technical reading I have been doing for a few years now. Most docs really don't want to deal with hep C as anything other than a liver disease, but it is Oh so much more fun. Many of you might remember I had a mess of cognitive issues during tx and an MRI brain scan at the end of tx. It wasn't pretty. "Multiple areas of T2 hyperintensity" - maybe/probably ischemic vasculitis related to cryoglobulin molecule buildup at the blood brain barrier. No doc could say for sure and I wasn't up for a brain biopsy yeeeeha! No thankykindly. A followup scan a year later showed the situation was "unchanged." So the docs don't know if the brain pathology in the image is from the virus or the treatment. I will have another MRI in a year or so, and a second liver biopsy and go from there, I do have a couple docs here in town ( a neurologist and a rheumatologist) who are aware of these issues, if only superficially. So I do get some comfort from that. Meanwhile if I get into somekind of strokey flame- out event I suppose steroids would be the course of action. So stay tuned fellow Action Heros! Be Brave!
For the record I am geno 1a minimal inflammation and fibrosis. Hep c for thirty (?) years probably. My first round of Peg and Riba lasted 60 weeks and failed. I like to believe I have some time to wait for the upcoming new treatments. I don't feel too bad most of the time except for monstrous fatigue.
For those interested , here is a summary from a recent Neurology journal that sheds more light on these neuro and cognitive aspects of HCV. There is quite alot of high quality info out there - in the medical abstracts (pubmed.gov) if a person has the time and stomach to look into it.
The sun came out today and it felt like healing :-)) yes yes yes tweet Cheerios all! Kathy J.
Neurologic complications of hepatitis C Neurologist. 2008 May;14(3):151-6. Acharya JN, Pacheco VH.. Department of Neurology and Psychiatry, Saint Louis University School of Medicine, Saint Louis, Missouri 63104, USA. acharyaj@slu.edu
BACKGROUND: Hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection is a common and chronic disorder with numerous extrahepatic manifestations. We review the neurologic complications in this article. REVIEW SUMMARY: Neurologic complications can involve the peripheral or the central nervous system. The most frequently reported complication is a subacute, distal, symmetric, sensorimotor polyneuropathy in the presence of mixed cryoglobulinemia (MC). HCV infection is the most common cause of MC. In HCV-infected patients without MC, mononeuropathy or mononeuropathy multiplex is more common. Both ischemic and hemorrhagic strokes, probably related to MC and vasculitis, have been described. More recently, transverse myelopathy and cognitive impairment have been linked to HCV infection, but the association is less certain and needs to be confirmed in larger studies. HCV has also been reported as a possible cause of encephalomyelitis in some cases. Although there are no definite treatment guidelines, immunomodulating agents and antiviral therapy are most often used with favorable outcomes. CONCLUSIONS: HCV infection should be considered in the differential diagnosis of a variety of neurologic disorders. Further studies are necessary to establish the full spectrum of the neurologic complications, identify specific pathophysiologic mechanisms, and provide clear guidelines for management.
So there ya go.
chardonnay9 - 18 Jan 2009 16:47 GMT > I don't feel too bad most of the time > except for monstrous fatigue. Try 600 mg of alpha lipoic acid a day and that will change. I ran out a few weeks ago and fell back into the fatigue routine, not really paying attention that both events were at the same time.
Got some more a few days ago and I actually got up and cleaned house this morning. Did two loads of laundry, folded most of the huge pile on the dryer and pulled out everything in a good sized kitchen cabinet and reorganized. I could not have done that even yesterday.
I take it along with selenium (200 mg) and milk thistle (1000 mg). There is no reason to be tired when this really works. I hope it works for you too.
Ok Waterspider, flame away! I'm not going to stop telling people what really works.
Cactus Jammies - 18 Jan 2009 17:09 GMT ----- Original Message ----- From: "chardonnay9" <chardonnay9@earthlink.net> Newsgroups: alt.support.hepatitis-c Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:47 AM Subject: Re: Brain Fog and more; HCV plus Tx
>> I don't feel too bad most of the time >> except for monstrous fatigue. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Ok Waterspider, flame away! I'm not going to stop telling people what > really works. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Wikipedia, regarding natural dietary sources of ALA (Lipoic Acid) at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipoic_acid
Food sources Lipoic acid is found in a variety of foods, notably kidney, heart and liver meats as well as spinach, broccoli and potatoes. It is noted that: "Although LA is found in a wide variety of foods from plant and animal sources, quantitative information on the LA or lipoyllysine content of food is limited and published databases are lacking."[20][21]
[edit] Use as a dietary supplement Lipoic acid was first postulated to be an effective antioxidant when it was found it prevented the symptoms of vitamin C and vitamin E deficiency. It is able to scavenge reactive species in vitro, though there is little or no evidence that this actually occurs in vivo. The relatively good scavenging activity of lipoic acid is due to the strained conformation of the 5-membered ring in the intramolecular disulfide.[22] In cells, lipoic acid can theoretically be reduced to dihydrolipoic acid (?E= -0.288), though significant quantities of dihydrolipoic acid derived from orally-ingested lipoic acid have never been demonstrated. Dihydrolipoic acid is able to regenerate (reduce) antioxidants, such as glutathione, vitamin C and vitamin E, maintaining a healthy cellular redox state.[23][24] Lipoic acid has been shown in cell culture experiments to increase cellular uptake of glucose by recruiting the glucose transporter GLUT4 to the cell membrane, suggesting its use in diabetes.[25][26] Studies of rat aging have suggested that the use of L-carnitine and lipoic acid results in improved memory performance and delayed structural mitochondrial decay.[27] As a result, it may be helpful for people with Alzheimer's disease or Parkinson's disease.[28] Since the early 1990s lipoic acid has been used as a dietary supplement, typically at doses in the range of 100-200 mg/day. In a chronic/carcinogenicity study in rats, it is reported that racemic lipoic acid was found to be non-carcinogenic and did not show any evidence of target organ toxicity. The NOAEL is considered to be 60 mg/kg bw/day.[29]
- cactus jammies - (no data available on the effacicy of ALA on Hepatitis, although really well documented as beneficial in Diabetes 1 & 2 cases) google Hepatitis C Alpha Linoic Acid (do your own research if you can)
chardonnay9 - 19 Jan 2009 01:58 GMT > ----- Original Message ----- From: "chardonnay9" > <chardonnay9@earthlink.net> [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > 2 cases) > google Hepatitis C Alpha Linoic Acid (do your own research if you can) And all that has exactly what to do with ALA giving me energy?
Waterspider - 18 Jan 2009 18:43 GMT >> I don't feel too bad most of the time >> except for monstrous fatigue. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Ok Waterspider, flame away! I'm not going to stop telling people what > really works. Settle down, you'll only get flamed for telling people that colloidal silver will cure hep c. I will comment, though :-) Spirulina is a natural and safe energy-booster that worked for me, although it's high iron content is something to be considered. Milkthistle has never been touted to combat fatigue and the jury's still out on benefits to the liver.
chardonnay9 - 19 Jan 2009 02:02 GMT >>> I don't feel too bad most of the time >>> except for monstrous fatigue. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Settle down, you'll only get flamed for telling people that colloidal silver > will cure hep c. So I can only post things you agree with? I don't think so. There is no cure, not even the allopathic remedies can do that. CS did kick a.s on my viral load though and I proved it to myself. I don't really care if you agree. This is an open forum where opinions other than yours can be posted.
> I will comment, though :-) > Spirulina is a natural and safe energy-booster that worked for me, although > it's high iron content is something to be considered. > Milkthistle has never been touted to combat fatigue and the jury's still out > on benefits to the liver. I don't recall mentioning that milk thistle relieved my fatigue. I only mentioned that I took it.
Waterspider - 19 Jan 2009 05:48 GMT >>>> I don't feel too bad most of the time >>>> except for monstrous fatigue. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > I don't recall mentioning that milk thistle relieved my fatigue. I only > mentioned that I took it. Re-read your post.
amzolt - 16 Jan 2009 09:07 GMT On Jan 15, 11:23 am, "Cactus Jammies" <cactusjamm...@retinalcircus.orb> wrote:
> Hi all, > Just call me happyface. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Minimizing the Impact of Neuropsychiatric Effects During Chronic HCV Disease > and Treatment So many things about Tx and the eight months since plus the 30-odd years before make much more sense now...
My favorite descriptor for myself over the years has been "Weird". Now I have not just the experiential indices but also the medical jargon to back up that Weirditity...
Thip - 16 Jan 2009 12:45 GMT > Hi all, > Just call me happyface. > > From: http://www.hcvadvocate.org/hcsp/articles/gish-2.html Nice to know I've fiinally got a valid reason for being a total goofball.
topcat - 17 Jan 2009 03:31 GMT Hey C.J. nice to see you still kicking. well, all that jargon is waaay too much for my disheveled brain pan to hold, but I get the gist. I think the depression is really a combination of the effects of tx, plus the constant nausea, fatigue etc. Brain fog to me is a lot like having your brain on a merry go round, going real fast, all your thoughts just go flying off and you keep reaching out trying to pull them back. but one of biggest for me, is that I can't do anything I want to. I get these occassional energetic impulses and start thinking about attacking some of my life goals, (I had a lot of plans a year ago)but that lasts about 2 minutes and I have to lay down again. Most of my days just revovle around trying to make it thru the day. I occassional think about asking someone out (they called it dating I think), then I look in the mirror at my gaunt, anemic appearance and forget that. today I'm lucky if I can actually do the dishes. After tonight, I have 5 more shots and I just need to hang on. ok, need to stop before I whine more. adios tc
Cactus Jammies - 17 Jan 2009 05:01 GMT > Hey C.J. nice to see you still kicking. well, all that jargon is > waaay too much for my disheveled brain pan to hold, but I get the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > adios > tc Hey TC, Still kickin' en los pantalones saguaros, si! You sound like I felt for quite a while, even after tx and the subsequent relapse. It took forever for me to actually get my axe in gear, for anything constructive except an incredible voyage done in a manic surge once in a while. It has taken over two years to get by that stage to the point where I feel like the old, pre-tx ME again. Of course, in that interlude where the conscious desire to get something done, and the body's lack of willingness to do its part and get rolling, I picked up the habit of doing a lot of nothing. But I do it well. I am finally going to get to that guitar making school this summer, last summer I tie dyed a bazillion tee shirts and kiddy clothes and sold them at a music festival near here. Last fall I went to Spain for 18 days. This winter I am working on art projects like I did in the good old days. It takes time to get back to ME, and we are all different. So all in all, the post tx recovery time may vary with the user. You have five shots left, by the end of February you will be looking for your first post-tx PCR, which for me was a gruelling wait. I think it was three weeks post-tx for that, but I was pretty fuzzy in the noggin by that point in time and I can't remember for sure. In my case, I don't feel now that the virus is affecting me in the head anymore, if it ever was. My doctor said to me last visit that it was the Interferon most likely that did it, including a lovely psychotic break. He also seems satisfied that my ALT and AST are 'stable' at just over normal. I read somewhere (Clinical Care Options perhaps) that it has been postulated that those scores, if consistently below 1.5 of the high end of normal (say normal to high is 50, and 75 as 1.5 of that), then the virus is not as active or could be considered as 'stable'. Gee I sure wish I can remember where I saw that. C'mon Telaprevir!
You take care now, only five more weeks, no running with scissors, and MINUTE BY MINUTE, Don't get in a hurry about anything. I don't think it helps if you do one bit.
Cactus Jammies PS Have a drink of water right now, buddy.
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