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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / January 2009

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Brain Fog and more; HCV plus Tx

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Cactus Jammies - 15 Jan 2009 16:23 GMT
Hi all,
Just call me happyface.

From: http://www.hcvadvocate.org/hcsp/articles/gish-2.html

Minimizing the Impact of Neuropsychiatric Effects During Chronic HCV Disease
and Treatment

Robert G. Gish , M.D.

(To see the figures and illustrations in this article, please download the
pdf version.)

New data are emerging that implicate direct effects of the hepatitis C virus
(HCV) on the central nervous system, along with side effects of both
peginterferon and ribavirin as causes of multiple symptoms during treatment
of HCV. Neuropsychiatric symptoms are of great concern in patients with
hepatitis C because they are common, may reduce quality of life, and can
limit treatment adherence and effect the outcome of treatment. To improve
patient well-being and the likelihood of successful anti-HCV therapy, it is
critical that physicians screen patients for neuro-psychiatric symptoms and
manage these problems and symptoms proactively.

Pre-existing neuro-psychiatric symptoms are common in hepatitis C patients.
In fact, 35% to 57% of patients with chronic HCV infection may have
depression upon diagnosis or before starting any therapy. Furthermore, new
neuropsychiatric symptoms emerge in an additional 30% to 40% of patients
receiving peginterferon / ribavirin treatment. Cognitive deficits,
particularly those affecting concentration, memory, and psychomotor speed,
have been identified in patients with even mild HCV infection as well.

The pathophysiology of these toxic effects of HCV remain poorly defined. One
theory is that HCV may infect the brain via macrophage or microglial cells.
Another is that toxins may accumulate in the blood secondary to impaired
clearance by a cirrhotic liver, causing impaired cognition. Cirrhosis may be
predictive of poorer cognitive function due to clinical or subclinical
encephalopathy, and progressive hepatic injury in the HCV-infected patient
without cirrhosis also may play a role in the development of neurocognitive
problems although this is rarely seen in patients without significant
fibrosis and portal hypertension. Antiserotonergic effects of interferon
have been proposed as a mechanism in the development of interferon-related
depression and may explain why patients symptoms from interferon therapy can
be profoundly improved with SSRI type antidepressants.

A recent prospective cohort study found that although only 11% of patients
treated with peginterferon/ribavirin met criteria for major depression, yet
more than one third developed symptoms of moderate to severe depression
during treatment. Whereas interferons are generally known to be associated
with psychiatric side effects, this study was one of the first to identify a
dose-related association between PEG interferon/ribavirin treatment and
depression.

Due to the chronic nature and nonspecific symptoms of HCV infection,
distinguishing the somatic complaints of disease chronicity from a
depressive syndrome is a major clinical challenge. Patients with major
depression often feel ill, experiencing somatic and/or cognitive symptoms
and a perceived state of "brain fog" and other symptoms that impair the
patients functional level. These symptoms can easily be confounded by the
presence of a chronic HCV infection. Nonsomatic symptoms of depression may
include low self-esteem, feelings of guilt, worthlessness, hopelessness, and
in the most severe cases, suicidal ideation. Some depression screening
tools-such as the Hospital Anxiety and Depression Scale (HADS)-are geared
toward assessment of nonsomatic symptoms of depression, and may be useful in
HCV-infected patients who exhibit symptoms of major depression. The Center
for Epidemiologic Studies of Depression (CES-D) self-administered scoring
sheet also may be useful in an office practice.

The impact of depression on the patient can be significant, causing
irritability, fatigue, apathy, lack of concentration, and in extreme
situations, suicidal ideation or suicide. It is therefore not surprising
that depression can have a negative impact on adherence to anti-HCV therapy.
Moreover, another prospective cohort study found a correlation between
depression symptoms and clearance of HCV RNA at week 24, even after
adjusting for ribavirin dose assignment, genotype, age, antidepressant
usage, dose reduction of peginterferon or ribavirin, and knowledge of viral
status during treatment. Periodic assessment for depression during treatment
is imperative, with expert psychiatric referral provided as needed if signs
and symptoms of depression progress during treatment.

Profound improvement can be achieved with antidepressant pharmacotherapy and
formal psychotherapy for treatment of depression. There are no
placebo-controlled studies evaluating the treatment of interferon-induced
depression. An open-label trial of citalopram conducted in 15 patients with
HCV infection demonstrated a significantly positive response in
interferon-treated patients. Prophylactic therapy in patients with a recent
or remote history of depression may be controversial; but recent studies
have shown a benefit and proactive antidepressant therapy is strongly
advised in clinical practice, both from this author's clinical experience
and from surveys of practitioners who manage HCV treatment. Patients with
major depression may also benefit from support groups, but this should not
be a replacement for pharmacologic therapy and psychotherapy.

Pharmacologic guidelines for general treatment of neuropsychiatric disorders
may offer the best approach to managing depression in the
peginterferon-treated patient. These guidelines emphasize individualized
selection of an agent, often exploiting the side-effect profile of the
various medications available. For example, agents that promote sleep may be
most appropriate for patients who have a primary sleep disturbance, whereas
patients experiencing fatigue may benefit most from activating agents.

Patients with a history of major depression or significant depressive
symptoms including history of suicide attempts, or bipolar disorder or
psychosis, should be referred for expert psychiatric diagnosis and
management prior to treatment initiation. Patients with a pre-existing
history of bipolar disorder should be monitored closely while receiving
interferon therapy, and, whenever possible, treated prophylactically with a
mood stabilizer such as olanzapine or quetiapine (lithium or valproic acid
can also be considered, with close follow-up). Any patient for whom the
medical practitioner is not comfortable starting antidepressant therapy
should be referred for clearance before starting anti-HCV treatment, and
psychiatric follow-up should continue periodically during therapy.

In summary, neuropsychiatric symptoms are common in HCV-infected patients
both at baseline and as side effects of peginterferon therapy. Without
appropriate intervention, these symptoms can have serious consequences for
the patient and can also limit adherence to, and therefore success of,
antiviral therapy. Fortunately, depression and other neuropsychiatric side
effects can generally be managed effectively with available pharmacologic
therapies, thereby allowing patients to stay on anti-HCV therapy with the
best chance of treatment success.

Important References

(truncated for brevity, go to hcvadvocate for long list of footnotes)

cactus jammies  (mind of mush :)
kjoh - 16 Jan 2009 06:35 GMT
On Jan 15, 9:23 am, "Cactus Jammies" <cactusjamm...@retinalcircus.orb>
wrote:
> Hi all,
> Just call me happyface.
[quoted text clipped - 122 lines]
>
> cactus jammies  (mind of mush :)

******************************************************************************
Hey you Mr Saguaro Pants :-) -    hugs to you and stuff

Good find this article!    The information is consistent with my own
experience and the technical reading I have been doing for a few years
now.  Most docs really don't want to deal with hep C as anything other
than a liver disease, but it is Oh so much more fun.  Many of you
might remember I had a mess of cognitive issues during tx and an  MRI
brain scan at the end of tx.  It wasn't pretty. "Multiple areas of T2
hyperintensity" - maybe/probably ischemic vasculitis related to
cryoglobulin molecule buildup at the blood brain barrier.  No doc
could say for sure and I wasn't up for a brain biopsy yeeeeha!   No
thankykindly.  A followup scan a year later showed the situation was
"unchanged." So the docs don't know if the brain pathology in the
image is from the virus or the treatment.  I will have another MRI in
a year or so, and a second liver biopsy and go from there, I do have a
couple docs here in town ( a neurologist and a rheumatologist) who are
aware of these issues, if only superficially.  So I do get some
comfort from that.  Meanwhile if I get into somekind of strokey flame-
out  event I suppose steroids would be the course of action.  So stay
tuned fellow Action Heros!  Be Brave!

For the record I am geno 1a minimal inflammation and fibrosis.  Hep c
for thirty (?) years probably.  My first  round of Peg and Riba lasted
60 weeks and failed.   I like to believe I have some time to wait for
the upcoming new treatments.  I don't feel too bad most of the time
except for monstrous fatigue.

For those interested , here is a summary from a recent Neurology
journal that sheds more light on these neuro and cognitive aspects of
HCV.  There is quite alot of high quality info out there - in the
medical abstracts (pubmed.gov) if a person has the time and stomach to
look into it.

The sun came out today and it felt like healing  :-))  yes yes yes
tweet
Cheerios all!  Kathy J.

Neurologic complications of hepatitis C
Neurologist. 2008 May;14(3):151-6. Acharya JN, Pacheco VH..
Department of Neurology and Psychiatry, Saint Louis University School
of Medicine, Saint Louis, Missouri 63104, USA. acharyaj@slu.edu

BACKGROUND: Hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection is a common and chronic
disorder with numerous extrahepatic manifestations. We review the
neurologic complications in this article. REVIEW SUMMARY: Neurologic
complications can involve the peripheral or the central nervous
system. The most frequently reported complication is a subacute,
distal, symmetric, sensorimotor polyneuropathy in the presence of
mixed cryoglobulinemia (MC). HCV infection is the most common cause of
MC. In HCV-infected patients without MC, mononeuropathy or
mononeuropathy multiplex is more common. Both ischemic and hemorrhagic
strokes, probably related to MC and vasculitis, have been described.
More recently, transverse myelopathy and cognitive impairment have
been linked to HCV infection, but the association is less certain and
needs to be confirmed in larger studies. HCV has also been reported as
a possible cause of encephalomyelitis in some cases. Although there
are no definite treatment guidelines, immunomodulating agents and
antiviral therapy are most often used with favorable outcomes.
CONCLUSIONS: HCV infection should be considered in the differential
diagnosis of a variety of neurologic disorders. Further studies are
necessary to establish the full spectrum of the neurologic
complications, identify specific pathophysiologic mechanisms, and
provide clear guidelines for management.

So there ya go.
Sara - 16 Jan 2009 16:34 GMT
> On Jan 15, 9:23 am, "Cactus Jammies" <cactusjamm...@retinalcircus.orb>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 174 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

woo hoo!   welcome back KoJo!!
you've been missed.

Sara
Sara - 16 Jan 2009 16:36 GMT
> > On Jan 15, 9:23 am, "Cactus Jammies" <cactusjamm...@retinalcircus.orb>
> > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 164 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hmm, I wonder where my message went?

all I said was "welcome back KoJo!    but still.  sheesh!

Sara
Thip - 16 Jan 2009 17:25 GMT
Welcome back, O Awesome One!

On Jan 15, 9:23 am, "Cactus Jammies" <cactusjamm...@retinalcircus.orb>
wrote:
> Hi all,
> Just call me happyface.
[quoted text clipped - 148 lines]
>
> cactus jammies (mind of mush :)

******************************************************************************
Hey you Mr Saguaro Pants :-) -    hugs to you and stuff

Good find this article!    The information is consistent with my own
experience and the technical reading I have been doing for a few years
now.  Most docs really don't want to deal with hep C as anything other
than a liver disease, but it is Oh so much more fun.  Many of you
might remember I had a mess of cognitive issues during tx and an  MRI
brain scan at the end of tx.  It wasn't pretty. "Multiple areas of T2
hyperintensity" - maybe/probably ischemic vasculitis related to
cryoglobulin molecule buildup at the blood brain barrier.  No doc
could say for sure and I wasn't up for a brain biopsy yeeeeha!   No
thankykindly.  A followup scan a year later showed the situation was
"unchanged." So the docs don't know if the brain pathology in the
image is from the virus or the treatment.  I will have another MRI in
a year or so, and a second liver biopsy and go from there, I do have a
couple docs here in town ( a neurologist and a rheumatologist) who are
aware of these issues, if only superficially.  So I do get some
comfort from that.  Meanwhile if I get into somekind of strokey flame-
out  event I suppose steroids would be the course of action.  So stay
tuned fellow Action Heros!  Be Brave!

For the record I am geno 1a minimal inflammation and fibrosis.  Hep c
for thirty (?) years probably.  My first  round of Peg and Riba lasted
60 weeks and failed.   I like to believe I have some time to wait for
the upcoming new treatments.  I don't feel too bad most of the time
except for monstrous fatigue.

For those interested , here is a summary from a recent Neurology
journal that sheds more light on these neuro and cognitive aspects of
HCV.  There is quite alot of high quality info out there - in the
medical abstracts (pubmed.gov) if a person has the time and stomach to
look into it.

The sun came out today and it felt like healing  :-))  yes yes yes
tweet
Cheerios all!  Kathy J.

Neurologic complications of hepatitis C
Neurologist. 2008 May;14(3):151-6. Acharya JN, Pacheco VH..
Department of Neurology and Psychiatry, Saint Louis University School
of Medicine, Saint Louis, Missouri 63104, USA. acharyaj@slu.edu

BACKGROUND: Hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection is a common and chronic
disorder with numerous extrahepatic manifestations. We review the
neurologic complications in this article. REVIEW SUMMARY: Neurologic
complications can involve the peripheral or the central nervous
system. The most frequently reported complication is a subacute,
distal, symmetric, sensorimotor polyneuropathy in the presence of
mixed cryoglobulinemia (MC). HCV infection is the most common cause of
MC. In HCV-infected patients without MC, mononeuropathy or
mononeuropathy multiplex is more common. Both ischemic and hemorrhagic
strokes, probably related to MC and vasculitis, have been described.
More recently, transverse myelopathy and cognitive impairment have
been linked to HCV infection, but the association is less certain and
needs to be confirmed in larger studies. HCV has also been reported as
a possible cause of encephalomyelitis in some cases. Although there
are no definite treatment guidelines, immunomodulating agents and
antiviral therapy are most often used with favorable outcomes.
CONCLUSIONS: HCV infection should be considered in the differential
diagnosis of a variety of neurologic disorders. Further studies are
necessary to establish the full spectrum of the neurologic
complications, identify specific pathophysiologic mechanisms, and
provide clear guidelines for management.

So there ya go.
chardonnay9 - 18 Jan 2009 16:47 GMT
>  I don't feel too bad most of the time
> except for monstrous fatigue.

Try 600 mg of alpha lipoic acid a day and that will change. I ran out a
few weeks ago and fell back into the fatigue routine, not really paying
attention that both events were at the same time.

Got some more a few days ago and I actually got up and cleaned house
this morning. Did two loads of laundry, folded most of the huge pile on
the dryer and pulled out everything in a good sized kitchen cabinet and
reorganized. I could not have done that even yesterday.

I take it along with selenium (200 mg) and milk thistle (1000 mg). There
is no reason to be tired when this really works. I hope it works for you
too.

Ok Waterspider, flame away! I'm not going to stop telling people what
really works.
Cactus Jammies - 18 Jan 2009 17:09 GMT
----- Original Message -----
From: "chardonnay9" <chardonnay9@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.support.hepatitis-c
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: Brain Fog and more; HCV plus Tx

>>  I don't feel too bad most of the time
>> except for monstrous fatigue.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Ok Waterspider, flame away! I'm not going to stop telling people what
> really works.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Wikipedia, regarding natural dietary sources of ALA (Lipoic Acid)
at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipoic_acid

Food sources
Lipoic acid is found in a variety of foods, notably kidney, heart and liver
meats as well as spinach, broccoli and potatoes. It is noted that: "Although
LA is found in a wide variety of foods from plant and animal sources,
quantitative information on the LA or lipoyllysine content of food is
limited and published databases are lacking."[20][21]

[edit] Use as a dietary supplement
Lipoic acid was first postulated to be an effective antioxidant when it was
found it prevented the symptoms of vitamin C and vitamin E deficiency. It is
able to scavenge reactive species in vitro, though there is little or no
evidence that this actually occurs in vivo. The relatively good scavenging
activity of lipoic acid is due to the strained conformation of the
5-membered ring in the intramolecular disulfide.[22] In cells, lipoic acid
can theoretically be reduced to dihydrolipoic acid (?E= -0.288), though
significant quantities of dihydrolipoic acid derived from orally-ingested
lipoic acid have never been demonstrated. Dihydrolipoic acid is able to
regenerate (reduce) antioxidants, such as glutathione, vitamin C and vitamin
E, maintaining a healthy cellular redox state.[23][24] Lipoic acid has been
shown in cell culture experiments to increase cellular uptake of glucose by
recruiting the glucose transporter GLUT4 to the cell membrane, suggesting
its use in diabetes.[25][26] Studies of rat aging have suggested that the
use of L-carnitine and lipoic acid results in improved memory performance
and delayed structural mitochondrial decay.[27] As a result, it may be
helpful for people with Alzheimer's disease or Parkinson's disease.[28]
Since the early 1990s lipoic acid has been used as a dietary supplement,
typically at doses in the range of 100-200 mg/day. In a
chronic/carcinogenicity study in rats, it is reported that racemic lipoic
acid was found to be non-carcinogenic and did not show any evidence of
target organ toxicity. The NOAEL is considered to be 60 mg/kg bw/day.[29]

- cactus jammies - (no data available on the effacicy of ALA on Hepatitis,
although really well documented as beneficial in Diabetes 1 & 2 cases)
google Hepatitis C Alpha Linoic Acid (do your own research if you can)
chardonnay9 - 19 Jan 2009 01:58 GMT
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "chardonnay9"
> <chardonnay9@earthlink.net>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
> 2 cases)
> google Hepatitis C Alpha Linoic Acid (do your own research if you can)

And all that has exactly what to do with ALA giving me energy?
Waterspider - 18 Jan 2009 18:43 GMT
>>  I don't feel too bad most of the time
>> except for monstrous fatigue.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Ok Waterspider, flame away! I'm not going to stop telling people what
> really works.

Settle down, you'll only get flamed for telling people that colloidal silver
will cure hep c.
I will comment, though :-)
Spirulina is a natural and safe energy-booster that worked for me, although
it's high iron content is something to be considered.
Milkthistle has never been touted to combat fatigue and the jury's still out
on benefits to the liver.
chardonnay9 - 19 Jan 2009 02:02 GMT
>>>  I don't feel too bad most of the time
>>> except for monstrous fatigue.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Settle down, you'll only get flamed for telling people that colloidal silver
> will cure hep c.

So I can only post things you agree with? I don't think so. There is no
cure, not even the allopathic remedies can do that. CS did kick a.s on
my viral load though and I proved it to myself. I don't really care if
you agree. This is an open forum where opinions other than yours can be
posted.

> I will comment, though :-)
> Spirulina is a natural and safe energy-booster that worked for me, although
> it's high iron content is something to be considered.
> Milkthistle has never been touted to combat fatigue and the jury's still out
> on benefits to the liver.

I don't recall mentioning that milk thistle relieved my fatigue. I only
mentioned that I took it.
Waterspider - 19 Jan 2009 05:48 GMT
>>>>  I don't feel too bad most of the time
>>>> except for monstrous fatigue.
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> I don't recall mentioning that milk thistle relieved my fatigue. I only
> mentioned that I took it.

Re-read your post.
amzolt - 16 Jan 2009 09:07 GMT
On Jan 15, 11:23 am, "Cactus Jammies"
<cactusjamm...@retinalcircus.orb> wrote:
> Hi all,
> Just call me happyface.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Minimizing the Impact of Neuropsychiatric Effects During Chronic HCV Disease
> and Treatment

So many things about Tx and the eight months since plus the 30-odd
years before make much more sense now...

My favorite descriptor for myself over the years has been "Weird".
Now I have not just the experiential indices but also the medical
jargon to back up that Weirditity...
Thip - 16 Jan 2009 12:45 GMT
> Hi all,
> Just call me happyface.
>
> From: http://www.hcvadvocate.org/hcsp/articles/gish-2.html

Nice to know I've fiinally got a valid reason for being a total goofball.
topcat - 17 Jan 2009 03:31 GMT
Hey C.J. nice to see you still kicking.  well, all that jargon is
waaay too much for my disheveled brain pan to hold, but I get the
gist.  I think the depression is really a combination of the effects
of tx, plus the constant nausea, fatigue etc. Brain fog to me is a lot
like having your brain on a merry go round, going real fast, all your
thoughts just go flying off and you keep reaching out trying to pull
them back.  but one of biggest for me, is that I can't do anything I
want to.  I get these occassional energetic impulses and start
thinking about attacking some of my life goals, (I had a lot of plans
a year ago)but that lasts about 2 minutes and I have to lay down
again.  Most of my days just revovle around trying to make it thru the
day.  I occassional think about asking someone out (they called it
dating I think), then I look in the mirror at my gaunt, anemic
appearance and forget that.  today I'm lucky if I can actually do the
dishes.  After tonight, I have 5 more shots and I just need to hang
on. ok, need to stop before I whine more.
adios
tc
Cactus Jammies - 17 Jan 2009 05:01 GMT
> Hey C.J. nice to see you still kicking.  well, all that jargon is
> waaay too much for my disheveled brain pan to hold, but I get the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> adios
> tc

Hey TC,
 Still kickin' en los pantalones saguaros, si!  You sound like I felt for
quite a while, even after tx and the subsequent relapse.  It took forever
for me to actually get my axe in gear, for anything constructive except an
incredible voyage done in a manic surge once in a while.  It has taken over
two years to get by that stage to the point where I feel like the old,
pre-tx ME again.  Of course, in that interlude where the conscious desire to
get something done, and the body's lack of willingness to do its part and
get rolling, I picked up the habit of doing a lot of nothing.  But I do it
well.  I am finally going to get to that guitar making school this summer,
last summer I tie dyed a bazillion tee shirts and kiddy clothes and sold
them at a music festival near here.  Last fall I went to Spain for 18 days.
This winter I am working on art projects like I did in the good old days. It
takes time to get back to ME, and we are all different.  So all in all, the
post tx recovery time may vary with the user.  You have five shots left, by
the end of February you will be looking for your first post-tx PCR, which
for me was a gruelling wait.  I think it was three weeks post-tx for that,
but I was pretty fuzzy in the noggin by that point in time and I can't
remember for sure.  In my case, I don't feel now that the virus is affecting
me in the head anymore, if it ever was.  My doctor said to me last visit
that it was the Interferon most likely that did it, including a lovely
psychotic break.  He also seems satisfied that my ALT and AST are 'stable'
at just over normal.  I read somewhere (Clinical Care Options perhaps) that
it has been postulated that those scores, if consistently below 1.5 of the
high end of normal (say normal to high is 50, and 75 as 1.5 of that), then
the virus is not as active or could be considered as 'stable'.  Gee I sure
wish I can remember where I saw that.  C'mon Telaprevir!

You take care now, only five more weeks, no running with scissors, and
MINUTE BY MINUTE, Don't get in a hurry about anything.  I don't think it
helps if you do one bit.

Cactus Jammies  PS Have a drink of water right now, buddy.
 
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