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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / April 2008Phlebotomy Improves Hepatitis C
Bloodletting in hepatitis .. Whoda .. thunk. Dig Dis Sci. 2008 Mar;53(3):815-22. Epub 2007 Sep 12. Phlebotomy improves therapeutic response to interferon in patients with chronic hepatitis C: a meta-analysis of six prospective randomized controlled trials. Desai TK, Jamil LH, Balasubramaniam M, Koff R, Bonkovsky HL. William Beaumont Hospital, Royal Oak, MI, USA. tusarde...@aol.com Prospective randomized controlled trials (RCTs) comparing phlebotomy and interferon (IFN) treatment to IFN alone in patients with chronic hepatitis C (CHC) have suggested a benefit for the phlebotomy group. However, statistical significance was achieved in only one of these trials. We performed a meta-analysis of RCTs comparing phlebotomy and IFN to IFN alone for the treatment of CHC. The MEDLINE database and Cochrane registry of controlled trials were searched using the key words "phlebotomy" and "treatment of hepatitis C." Reference lists of review articles discussing the interaction between iron and CHC, and prospective RCTs comparing phlebotomy plus IFN therapy to IFN alone were searched to identify additional RCTs that compared phlebotomy plus IFN to IFN alone. Peto odds ratios with their 95% confidence intervals and Forrest plots were generated for each variable to assess the relationships among the studies that had provided that information. Statistical analysis was performed using Comprehensive META-Analysis version 2.0. Six prospective RCTs were identified: all used sustained viral response (SVR) as an endpoint. The three largest RCTs excluded patients with cirrhosis. Two RCTs specifically included only patients with either high ferritin or high hepatic iron content. IFN treatment regimes varied. Length of treatment varied between 6 and 12 months. The phlebotomy plus IFN group and the IFN group did not differ with respect to the percentage of patients with cirrhosis or genotype 1. SVR was attained in 50/182 (27%) patients in the phlebotomy plus IFN group, compared to 22/185 (12%) patients in the IFN group. Peto odds ratio for SVR in phlebotomy plus IFN group was 2.7; 95% CI 1.6-4.5, P < 0.0001. All five RCTs published in manuscript form showed a trend towards a benefit from the phlebotomy plus IFN in attaining SVR, and the results of the meta-analysis were not dependent on any single RCT, since excluding any single RCT did not change the results. Phlebotomy improves the SVR in response to IFN treatment in patients with CHC. Confirmation of this will require RCT with detailed pre-treatment iron studies and appropriately powered to demonstrate a statistically significant benefit. PMID: 17846887 [PubMed - in process] Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk ironjustice@aol.com used his keyboard to write : > Bloodletting in hepatitis .. > Whoda .. thunk. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > trials. >... People need to be very careful about this. Might help people who have iron overload (primarily men) reduce their iron, which would make sense since iron overload has been shown to reduce SVR and make liver disease worse. Not so clear if someone is iron deficient (particularly common in women), since phlebotomy (removing blood) would make that worse, then anemia is worse, and that would make the side effects from riba worse (requiring a drop in riba dose). Since higher doses of riba are needed for best SVR chances, phlebotomy might be a really bad idea in people who are borderline or low on iron. -- Fee Fi phlebotomy might be a really bad idea in people who are borderline or low on iron << Really bad idea .. That covers alot from .. cysts to death .. Maybe you should narrow this "really bad idea" .. down .. ? Especially it seems when people consider the treatment to be 85% recovery WITHOUT your .. precious .. "riba" .. "I won't be able to do my .. riba" .. In case you don't understand what I just said .. Phlebotomy REPLACES .. riba .. Don't NEED the riba .. Forgo the .. riba .. Won't need the .. riba .. Understand .. ? "effective cure rate in the area of 75-80%" http://www.myanmar.gov.mm/Article/Article2004/July/july31.html Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > > Bloodletting in hepatitis .. > > Whoda .. thunk. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > - Show quoted text - [...] >Understand .. ? "effective cure rate in the area of 75-80%" Hmmm....a four year old speculative statement... Much more recently, *someone* posted this result of retrospective analysis: "SVR was attained in 50/182 (27%) patients in the phlebotomy plus IFN group" Seems like *someone* is confused about speculation verses actual facts... /greyhackles > [...] > >Understand .. ? "effective cure rate in the area of 75-80%" [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > /greyhackles I'm not taking sides on this issue and am only stating MY personal experience. I received phlebotomy's about every 2 weeks through most of my 11 months of tx as a result of elevated Ferritin levels. It was suspected I suffered from Hemachromotosis before tx. I suffered from severe Anemia during tx but my Hematologist felt my high Ferritin levels were a greater risk that the anemia. I'm 2 1/2 years post tx now and am still enjoying SVR and have sustained a normal Ferritin level since completing tx requiring no phlebotomy's. >> [...] >> >Understand .. ? "effective cure rate in the area of 75-80%" [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >and have sustained a normal Ferritin level since completing tx requiring no >phlebotomy's. The only "sides" apparent to the question are the use of phlebotomy in place of Ribavirin and the success rate of same, using Real Life(tm) data - as opposed to four year old speculation without any basis in fact... Unless you did not take Ribavirin as part of your course of therapy, you would be an example of conventional treatment. As for your phlebotomy, Hemochromatosis is something easily verified. Was yours? Cheers /greyhackles <snip> > >I'm not taking sides on this issue and am only stating MY personal > >experience. I received phlebotomy's about every 2 weeks through most of my [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > /greyhackles As I understand it, prior to tx I tested positive for one of the "non-dominant" genes that can cause the disorder. But my Gastroentrologist admittedly doesn't know what to think since my Ferritin level has stabilized at normal since completing tx 2 1/2 years ago. And yes, Ribavirin was very much a part of my tx. > <snip> >> >I'm not taking sides on this issue and am only stating MY personal [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >at normal since completing tx 2 1/2 years ago. And yes, Ribavirin was very >much a part of my tx. Right, then. fwiw, my serum ferritin level was borderline high pre-tx (340 ng/ml - high normal being 322 for my lab), and went through the ceiling while on therapy (1200 ng/ml, roughly three months into tx). I was negative for Hemochromatosis genes, and my bcld stated it was not unusual for serum ferritin levels to soar in the presence of hemolytic anemia from the Ribavirin (which I experienced in spades - along with aplastic anemia from the Peg-Interferon). I've been virus-free for going on three years now... Cheers /greyhackles Hemochromatosis is something easily verified. << Don't listen to a thing greyhackles has to say about iron .. He is biased and makes up sh.t as he goes along .. VERY helpful on a list about hepatitis and over the years has been OUTSPOKEN as to the "benefits" of .. conventional drugs over .. **anything** .. As in .. " he doth protest too much " .. This article shows diagnosing hemochromatosis is VERY hard. He has been here a long time .. and therefore it seems either NOTHING is working for .. him .. or he is here for other motives. "May not reflect the metabolically sequestered stores of iron" Am J Clin Pathol 1983 Nov;80(5):743-5 Serum ferritin and sequestered stores of body iron. Rao KR, Ray VH, Patel AR A 47-year-old man with sickle cell anemia, chronic cor pulmonale, and congestive heart failure died following a short illness. A diagnosis of iron deficiency was established during life by usually accepted criteria including a low serum ferritin concentration. Autopsy showed no stainable iron in the bone marrow, liver, and the heart. Marked deposits of iron were seen in the kidneys and the atrophic spleen. These findings suggest that the serum ferritin concentration may not reflect the metabolically sequestered stores of iron in the spleen and the kidneys. PMID: 6195914, UI: 84049241 Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > >> On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 07:08:40 -0700 (PDT), "ironjust...@aol.com" > >> <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On Apr 19, 12:58 pm, greyhackles <greyhack...@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote: Hemochromatosis is something easily verified. << Don't listen to a thing greyhackles has to say about iron .. He is biased and makes up sh.t as he goes along .. VERY helpful on a list about hepatitis and over the years has been OUTSPOKEN as to the "benefits" of .. conventional drugs over .. **anything** .. As in .. " he doth protest too much " .. This article shows diagnosing hemochromatosis is VERY hard. He has been here a long time .. and therefore it seems either NOTHING is working for .. him .. or he is here for other motives. ================ (drivel snipped) for the newbies, this guy (ironjustice) is obviously a fanatic about this whole iron and blood-letting thing, and we have learned to ignore him as much as possible, only 'biting' if/when he posts something that can be harmful to your treatment options (such as "don't take ribavirin" in this case)..... Please KF him and don't pay any attention to his ramblings. Grey certainly does have "other motives" for posting here. He's been virus free for several years now and he hangs out to share his knowledge(VAST!) and experiences with new Heppers who come here looking for information and hope. In my book, he's Mr. Wonderful, and I hope any newbies who are reading these posts realize that Grey is 'the authority' on HepC matters! I want to take a minute to say "Thanks!" again to Greyhackles for all the time and energy he invests in this group. I know he helped me get through MY tx with his words of wisdom and kindness. SARA >On Apr 19, 12:58 pm, greyhackles <greyhack...@REMOVEyahoo.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > >SARA Thank you, Sara. I'm really sorry you felt you had to post this, but I genuinely appreciate that you did. I thought Tom had finally come to the realization that his mental problems needed way more help than anyone here could provide and simply moved on. Guess I may have been wrong ;-) Anyway...we'll get along in spite of him. Cheers, thanks, and hope you're doing great these days! /greyhackles On Apr 19, 6:01 pm, greyhackles <greyhack...@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote:I thought Tom had finally come to the realization that his mental problems << Heh .. heh .. I knew there was more to you than ... "my fellow heppers I'm here to help" .. isn't there .. you little puke .. Stay the fk away from my posts .. Stay the fk away from .. me .. You have something to say about ANY of my posts you better include a study or two .. you understand .. me .. you fkd up screwball .. Do ya .. ? Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > ><ironjust...@aol.com> wrote in message > >news:a2d29afc-f7b3-4d22-9a76-95feced9bea7@f24g2000prh.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > - Show quoted text - [...] (Lesson 1 of proper usenet etiquette: trim anything that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand before replying ;-) It will always be my pleasure - if not my duty - to point out the half-truths - or more commonly the completely unsupportable statements - you post here. Count on it. Like when you post the speculative statement - totally unsupported by factual data - that Interferon with phlebotomy can provide a "75-80%" cure rate - when in fact the retrospective analysis *you* previously posted showed (1) only ONE of the SIX studies analyzed showed *ANY* statistically significant improvement in cure rate using Interferon plus phlebotomy over Interferon alone, and (2) that best-case showed a cure rate of ONLY 27%. You have not - and you will not - get away with posting that kind of utterly misleading crap here and expect every one of us to let it stand unquestioned. And no amount of your whining will change that truth. So get used to it, Loony Tunes. /greyhackles Like when you post the speculative statement - totally unsupported by factual data - that Interferon with phlebotomy can provide a "75-80%" cure rate << I included the link which says it .. I have included the article which says it .. I posted the article YOU .. refer .. to .. YOU .. **deliberately** posted .. the NEGATIVE .. post .. For some specific .. reason .. ?: YES .. To .. denigrate the .. thread .. Both article were written by .. others .. All the studies are done by .. others .. YOU .. have no articles BUT the ones I .. post .. Therefore .. as I said .. YOU know .. fkall about iron BUT .. do .. know .. enough to badmouth a medical study which says .. 85% cure .. rate .. by .. how .. ? "It is merely speculative and posted by a looney" . Now these .. groups are governed by .. class .. You obviously don't have .. any .. class .. These groups are .. glass half-full /supportive .. NOT .. glass half- empty / non supportive .. Soooo .. when you say stuff .. like .. "he's a looney and don't listen to those medical studies he posts" .. kinda makes one wonder about .. you .. there .. screwball .. and whether maybe this .. "cure" you so proudly .. pronounce .. is but in your head .. along with the .. encephalitis .. Sooo .. like I said .. stay the fk away from .. ME .. You fkg .. pussy .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > /greyhackles >Like when you post the speculative statement - totally unsupported by >factual data - that Interferon with phlebotomy can provide a "75-80%" cure rate << > >I included the link which says it .. You.....included a link......to an article......which provided speculation.... unsupported.....by.......fact. [...] >YOU .. **deliberately** posted .. the NEGATIVE .. post .. I.......merely.....pointed out.....that the other article.....YOU.....also.... posted.....which....provided....the.....results....of retrospective analysis.....of SIX STUDIES.....that used IFN......with and without phlebotomy.....shows that the speculation....found in the other.....article......was NOT SUPPORTED......by.....FACTS... NOT EVEN CLOSE.... Six....studies.....only....one....showed.....any....statistically....significant.... ....difference...in....outcomes.....and....that....only....showed....a...25%....cure...rate.... Hmmmmm.......which.....article.....should....people.....put....their.....faith.....into? The....speculative.....article? Or....the....article.....with.....real.....data? Is.....this....really.....that....difficult....for.....you.....to....comprehend? >For some specific .. reason .. ?: > >YES .. > >To .. denigrate the .. thread .. NO... Clearly......it was......to show.....how you.....use articles...laced with... ...SPECULATION.....as FACT.....when actual FACTS....show....OTHERWISE... >Both article were written by .. others .. And? .... >All the studies are done by .. others .. And? ....... >YOU .. have no articles BUT the ones I .. post .. And.....I....don't......need......to.....post.....any.....articles.....if......you.... post....articles...which...so clearly....contradict.......your......claims.... IRONic....isn't....it? ;-) ahahaha....hahahaha.....hahahaha!.... Consider...this...to...be...a...free...service....which...I...am...pleased.... ..to.....provide.....and.....will.....continue.....to....provide.... ...just...as...long...as...charlatans...like...you...post...factually...unsupportable...claims... <snicker> /greyhackles (still got an endless supply of elipses, too ;-) On Apr 19, 8:31 pm, greyhackles <greyhack...@REMOVEyahoo.com> ahahaha....hahahaha.....hahahaha!.... << You find sh.t funny in this group .. do ya .. pussy .. Like I said .. stay the fk away from .. ME .. You fkg .. pussy .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk On Apr 19, 4:19 pm, "Normin" <norminfishb...@aol.com> wrote:"don't take ribavirin" << Listen up .. Maybe YOU could afford .. 16,000 bucks for your treatment .. which I very much .. doubt .. but everyone cannot .. And so the FACT .. loser boy **decides** to badmouth a study which says .. treatment .. **works** .. bothers me .. man. Maybe it doesn't bother .. you .. but it does bother .. me .. Sooo .. maybe both of ya .. since you are .. cured .. should just shut the fk up when I post my articles .. and DON'T give your .. **opinion** because .. frankly .. we all KNOW about the combo .. and MOST people in this world will **never** be able to afford it .. So contrary to what YOU say .. I .. don't speak to the .. choir .. YOU .. do .. So .. take your singing anywhere BUT **my** thread .. because .. ? .. it is a thread about the success of bloodletting / phlebotomy in hepatitis .. something YOU know .. admittingly .. fkall about .. Sooo .. take your opinions of ME .. my work .. to yourself .. because again .. being that you've only been around for a couple of years .. means .. you KNOW fkall about me .. and I have learned quite abit about YOU .. in no time at'all .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > SARA <ironjustice@aol.com> is off his meds again :-( On Apr 19, 9:45 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: > Listen up .. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > DEAD PEOPLE WALKINGhttp://tinyurl.com/zk9fk Tom, Could you please present us with your credentials and tell us what actually is your work. This is an honest question, are you a member of the AMA or any of the Medical Sciences? Are you paid to be in research? And if, so please direct me to your professional board. In no way am I being hostile, I am just trying to understand what your position is. eileen (drivel snipped) In no way am I being hostile << "drivel" "In no way am I being hostile" .. You must really think I am about as stupid as yourself .. driv·el 1. saliva flowing from the mouth, or mucus from the nose; slaver. 2. childish, silly, or meaningless talk or thinking; nonsense; twaddle. –verb (used without object) 3. to let saliva flow from the mouth or mucus from the nose; slaver. 4. to talk childishly or idiotically. 5. Archaic. to issue like spittle. –verb (used with object) 6. to utter childishly or idiotically. 7. to waste foolishly. hostile 1 a: of or relating to an enemy <hostile fire> b: marked by malevolence <a hostile act> c: openly opposed or resisting <a hostile critic> <hostile to new ideas> d (1): not hospitable <plants growing in a hostile environment> (2): having an intimidating, antagonistic, or offensive nature <a hostile workplace> 2 a: of or relating to the opposing party in a legal controversy <a hostile witness> b: adverse to the interests of a property owner or corporation management <a hostile takeover> On Apr 21, 3:28 pm, eileen <samiamtwo...@yahoo.com> wrote:please direct me to your professional board << I suppose you might direct it to .. Education and Training , Mount Everest. Make sure you use the .. acronym. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk please direct me to your professional board. In no way am I being hostile, I am just trying to understand what your position is. << > On Apr 19, 9:45 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > - Show quoted text - On Apr 21, 7:44 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: > (drivel snipped) In no way am I being hostile << > [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Just as I thought, poor little boy Just a little FT......................................... On Apr 21, 5:02 pm, eileen <samiamtwo...@yahoo.com> wrote:Just as I thought, poor little boy Just a little FT << You got something to say .. ? Say it .. Heh .. heh .. Stay off my threads .. and stfu .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk .........................................- > On Apr 21, 7:44 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > > - Show quoted text - actually *I* am the one who referred to what you are spewing as drivel. Eileen was sincerely trying to have a conversation with you. God knows why. Sara On Apr 21, 3:28 pm, eileen <samiamtwo...@yahoo.com> wrote: (drivel snipped) In no way am I being hostile << "drivel" "In no way am I being hostile" .. You must really think I am about as stupid as yourself .. driv·el 1. saliva flowing from the mouth, or mucus from the nose; slaver. 2. childish, silly, or meaningless talk or thinking; nonsense; twaddle. –verb (used without object) 3. to let saliva flow from the mouth or mucus from the nose; slaver. 4. to talk childishly or idiotically. 5. Archaic. to issue like spittle. –verb (used with object) 6. to utter childishly or idiotically. 7. to waste foolishly. hostile 1 a: of or relating to an enemy <hostile fire> b: marked by malevolence <a hostile act> c: openly opposed or resisting <a hostile critic> <hostile to new ideas> d (1): not hospitable <plants growing in a hostile environment> (2): having an intimidating, antagonistic, or offensive nature <a hostile workplace> 2 a: of or relating to the opposing party in a legal controversy <a hostile witness> b: adverse to the interests of a property owner or corporation management <a hostile takeover> On Apr 21, 3:28 pm, eileen <samiamtwo...@yahoo.com> wrote:please direct me to your professional board << I suppose you might direct it to .. Education and Training , Mount Everest. Make sure you use the .. acronym. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk please direct me to your professional board. In no way am I being hostile, I am just trying to understand what your position is. << > On Apr 19, 9:45 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > - Show quoted text - actually *I* am the one who referred to what you are spewing as drivel. Eileen was sincerely trying to have a conversation with you. God knows why. << Oh well .. same sht .. different person .. I believe .. ***I*** .. would be a better judge as to intentions .. I've seen every trick pulled and if you think .. her .. "oh I'm so fkg nice it makes me sick" .. ploy .. is gonna fool .. me .. You are about as stupid as you act .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > Sara > [quoted text clipped - 105 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >Hemochromatosis is something easily verified. << > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >ferritin concentration may not reflect the metabolically sequestered stores of iron in the >spleen and the kidneys. PMID: 6195914, UI: 84049241 You are one pathetic piece of work, Tom. First, if you'd been paying any attention, you'd know conventional therapy (48 weeks) *was* successful in my case (for which I am quite grateful, and no thanks to you, bub). Actually, it is likely you know damned well that is true, but it doesn't suit your cause, so you'd deny even knowing. Nice. Second, you know my presence here is entirely to help others down the trail. Indeed, while I believe I have helped many folks in one fashion or another, I can think of at least one person who had HCV, told everyone here he had *no intention* of treating it, that I believe I convinced to give it a try, and was CURED. He came here under the handle of Sick Boy. Google that, nimrod. I have no other motivation to be here. Unlike you. Third, I don't make things up - unlike you. I have no reason to - unlike you. I don't synthesize conclusions out of thin air - unlike you. I don't take things out of context - unlike you. I don't selectively quote study results - unlike you. And I don't post 25 year old articles that are no longer applicable to modern medicine. Unlike you. If anyone should be questioned as to why they continue their presence here, it is you. You've never done treatment - indeed, afaik, you've never even had hepatitis of any form. But you clearly have some utterly whacked-out problem with iron. Cheers anyway, nut boi... /greyhackles ps: As for the article Tom posted: This is one of his favorites - I invite anyone to Google the PMID, click on "repeat the search with the omitted results included" at the bottom of the page - and you'll see he's used it on every forum he has somehow managed to foist himself upon. Hundreds of times! In this case, it is an attempt to obfuscate the question - with an article that was written 25 YEARS AGO! However, this is 2008, in case - like Tom - you've been stuck in a time warp. In 2008, any *good* clinician knows the proper suite of tests to correctly diagnose hereditary Hemochromatosis - the most common cause - and it is not difficult. Indeed, more cases are being diagnosed even *before* symptoms are manifestly present, because of the availability of HFE gene mutation testing - something that wasn't available 25 YEARS AGO. Jeeze, what a nitwit... [parts of rant by "ironjustice" snipped] >Second, you know my presence here is entirely to help others down the trail. >Indeed, while I believe I have helped many folks in one fashion or another, I >can think of at least one person who had HCV, told everyone here he had *no >intention* of treating it, that I believe I convinced to give it a try, and >was CURED. He came here under the handle of Sick Boy. Google that, nimrod. Heh...hey there, Grey. Funny that I came across this just as I was catching up on my newsgroup reading. Sigh...Usenet has been turning into a cesspool for many years now, and it appears to not be limited to a particular newsgroup. Unfortunately, it appears the ratio of useful content to spam, juvenile outbursts, trolling, and variations of the themes is getting smaller each year. Anyway, I see that I have a legitimate reason to hijack this thread now ;-) Just wanted to confirm your words in person, so to speak. Yes, I was a wee lad, frightened and naive, when I came here hoping to find reasons *not* to treat HepC--it seems like it's been ages ago (but only a year or so, in reality), but I am quite sure I remember how I felt about the whole thing. Can't be bothered Googleing myself, hehee. It flatters me that you remember my appearance on this newsgroup with such clarity, Grey. Indeed, it was mostly your calm reassurance, personal experience, and vast knowledge of the subject at hand that prompted me to cast a serious glance at the possibility of that much-dreaded interferon/ribarivin Tx. I don't mean to diminish the role of everyone else whose support and encouragement I value, but it would be fair to say that you were *the* decisive factor that tipped the scales when I was making that choice. So, just another opportunity to thank you, mate. You've done a bigger favour than I could realise back then. I wouldn't go as far as using the word "cured"--out of pure superstition, if nothing else. I'm seeing my doctor for 6-month post-Tx follow-up in a week, fingers crossed. <g> Everything should go well, though, given how quickly I responded and normal liver levels and undetectable viral load at 3-month follow-up. I'm trying to live a healthier life-style now, too. Still, a big nervous. The past year or so has been much more than just a (so far) successful Tx for me, though. I've experienced what a friend has termed as "epiphany" when I travelled in New Zealand for 5 weeks in February and March. Began to appreciate how awesome it is to be alive, among other things such as mind clarity. I don't know if going through the unpleasant experience of Tx was necessary to gain this new perspective, but that's how it happened, and I am very grateful for it. I am a stronger man now (at least I think I am <g>). I've just glanced at my older posts here, and it sounds like a different person. A part of it is not feeling 100% during Tx, of course, but I also think my general outlook has improved quite a bit. I'm writing this partly for the benefit of people reading this who are about to start Tx, like Cindy (?). It's not all bad, and you can't believe the euphoria that follows when you begin feeling better after the Tx ends, after being told the blood thing isn't detectable. My experience wasn't too bad...to think of it, I got off easy, remembering the stories of some others. But then, everyone has a different tolerance for pain, so it's not easy to say. My point is, don't anticipate the worst. I was really afraid before I took the plunge, but after the unknown factor was gone, I set my eyes on the prize and haven't looked back ever since. This has turned a bit longer than I intended--and probably not in an appropriate thread, too. Grey--my sincere and utmost gratitude to you, my friend. Cheers, Sick Boy  SignatureSick Boy >[parts of rant by "ironjustice" snipped] > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] >Cheers, >Sick Boy Hello again, SB! (you really have to change that handle now :-) Thank you for your follow-up - it is my great pleasure in knowing I had something to do with you changing your mind and giving treatment a try. Having it turn out so successfully (and in your case I'm as certain as is possible that the virus is gone, baby, gone!) is icing on the cake. I doubt very much our friend Tom will give your story even a passing glance - he really doesn't give a crap that people can be cured of HCV - it simply isn't part of his agenda or interest - indeed, it probably runs quite counter to his agenda. But perhaps some other person who has been fence-sitting will take a chance on therapy and have the same result as you. In that way, you'll have passed along the same "push" that I gave you :-) As for your epiphany: some folks don't get one of those until it is way too late in their lives to take advantage of it! You owe it to yourself to do something cool and wonderful and rewarding with your life - whatever that may be. Cheers - and have a wonderful life! /greyhackles On Apr 19, 3:50 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: > Hemochromatosis is something easily verified. << > > Don't listen to a thing greyhackles has to say...[he] has been > OUTSPOKEN as to the "benefits" of .. conventional drugs over .. > **anything** .. Oh, you mean he's sane. Seriously, there are a few websites out there suggesting "alternative" treatments for hep c. Not as adjuncts to interferon and friends, but as substitutes. Replacements. While part of me is cynical & bitter enough to chirp "Oh---Darwin Effect at work!! Goodie!!" I realize that there are many wonderful people out there who are simply less skilled than I at sorting the wheat from the chaff. That someone might make the wrong choice and become seriously ill or die as a result of that choice makes me angry. Bombard millions of people every day with "enlargement" and "refinance" emails, sure. Send us the occassional "I am Mister Noah Munguliw from Nigeria, cousin of the recently deposed..." scam email, okay. But to try to get people to choose ineffective treatments for serious diseases over proven effective treatments---bad. Not good. Not acceptable. And Karma will indeed be a bitch in such cases. A coworker attempted to treat the tiny lump in her breast with alternative treatments last year instead of seeing a Real Doctor. She is now recovering from a mastectomy while undergoing radiation & chemo and has not been back to work in over 5 months. I don't know what her current prognosis is (I've heard rumors, they are not good ones), but had she sought REAL medical help at the first sign of a possible problem much of her current suffering could perhaps have been avoided. On Apr 20, 2:38 am, TX-012 <withba...@aol.com> wrote:But to try to get people to choose ineffective treatments for serious diseases over proven effective treatments---bad. Not good. Not acceptable. And Karma will indeed be a bitch in such cases. << You for some reason posted this .. comment .. ON .. **my** post .. ? For some .. reason .. ? Are you trying to say .. "phlebotomy doesn't work!!" .. ? IS that what you are trying to .. say .. ? None of this nambypamby skirting the issue .. sht .. IS that what you are trying to say .. "phlebotomy doesn't work!!" .. ? Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On Apr 19, 3:50 pm, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > had she sought REAL medical help at the first sign of a possible > problem much of her current suffering could perhaps have been avoided. On Apr 20, 2:38 am, TX-012 <withba...@aol.com> wrote:But to try to get people to choose ineffective treatments for serious diseases over proven effective treatments---bad. Not good. Not acceptable. And Karma will indeed be a bitch in such cases. << You for some reason posted this .. comment .. ON .. **my** post .. ? For some .. reason .. ? Are you trying to say .. "phlebotomy doesn't work!!" .. ? IS that what you are trying to .. say .. ? None of this nambypamby skirting the issue .. sht .. IS that what you are trying to say .. "phlebotomy doesn't work!!" .. ? Yes, yes, you've finally got it! Phlebotomy doesn't work to cure hepatitis C! Yaaay Tom, finally, after all these years, you finally understand! On Apr 18, 10:36 am, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: <<snip>> None of these patients developed hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC). <<snip>> http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/61/24/8697 Clinical Investigations Normalization of Elevated Hepatic 8-Hydroxy-2'-Deoxyguanosine Levels in Chronic Hepatitis C Patients by Phlebotomy and Low Iron Diet1 Junji Kato, Masayoshi Kobune, Tokiko Nakamura, Ganji Kuroiwa, Kohichi Takada, Rishu Takimoto, Yasuhiro Sato, Koshi Fujikawa, Minoru Takahashi, Tetsuji Takayama, Tatsuru Ikeda and Yoshiro Niitsu2 Fourth Department of Internal Medicine [J. K., T. N., G. K., K. T., R. T., Y. S., K. F., M. T., T. T., Y. N.] and Department of Molecular Medicine [M. K.], Sapporo Medical University School of Medicine, and Department of Clinical Pathology, Sapporo Medical University Hospital [T. I.], Sapporo 060-8543, Japan Accumulation of 8-hydroxy-2'-deoxyguanosine (8-OHdG) in DNA, which may result from the continuous reactive oxygen species (ROS) generation associated with chronic inflammation, has been reported in various human preneoplastic lesions and in cancerous tissues. However, no direct causative relationship between the 8-OHdG formation and carcinogenesis has been thus far demonstrated in humans. Directly proving the causality requires showing that depletion of 8-OHdG levels in tissue by interfering with ROS generation results in a reduction in cancer. Chronic hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection is associated with a high risk of hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC). Several studies on patients with chronic HCV have shown that hepatic iron overload is attributable to liver injury and that iron depletion improved serum aminotransferase levels. Excess iron is known to generate ROS within cells, which causes mutagenic lesions, such as 8-OHdG. In this study, therefore, we have evaluated whether therapeutic iron reduction (phlebotomy and low iron diet) with a long-term follow-up (6 years) would decrease the hepatic 8-OHdG levels and the risk of HCC development in patients with chronic HCV. Patients (34) enrolled were those who had undergone standard IFN therapy but had no sustained response. Quantitative immunohistochemistry using the KS-400 image analyzing system and electrochemical detection was used for 8-OHdG detection. With this treatment, elevated hepatic 8-OHdG levels in patients with chronic hepatitis C (8.3 ± 4.6/105 dG) significantly decreased to almost normal levels (2.2 ± 0.9/105 dG; P < 0.001) with concomitant improvement of hepatitis severity, including fibrosis, whereas HCV titers were unaffected. None of these patients developed HCC. Thus, long-term iron reduction therapy in patients with chronic hepatitis C may potentially lower the risk of progression to HCC. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > Bloodletting in hepatitis .. > Whoda .. thunk. [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > DEAD PEOPLE WALKINGhttp://tinyurl.com/zk9fk On Apr 18, 10:36 am, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> wrote: Bloodletting in hepatitis << <<snip>> direct hepatocarcinogenic effect of free iron is mediated by the generation of oxygen reactive species and oxidative damage that are mutagenic and carcinogenic <<snip>> 1: Toxicology. 2005 Dec 5; [Epub ahead of print] Links Hepatocellular carcinoma caused by iron overload: A possible mechanism of direct hepatocarcinogenicity. Asare GA, Mossanda KS, Kew MC, Paterson AC, Kahler-Venter CP, Siziba K. MRC/University Molecular Hepatology Research Unit, Department of Medicine, University of the Witwatersrand, 7 York Road, Parktown 2193, Johannesburg, South Africa. BACKGROUND/AIMS: Excess hepatic iron may be both directly and indirectly carcinogenic. The aim of this study was to determine if generation of reactive oxygen species and the resulting oxidative damage induced by free hepatic iron is directly hepatocarcinogenic. METHODS: Sixty male Wistar albino rats were iron-loaded by ferrocene supplementation of their diet. Biochemical parameters of oxidative damage and lipid peroxidation, DNA unwinding and strand breaks, and the Ames Mutagenesis Test were measured at 4 monthly intervals and correlated with the degree of hepatic iron overload, the presence of iron-free preneoplastic foci in the liver, and the development of hepatocellular carcinoma in comparison with 60 control rats. RESULTS: Levels of lipid hydroperoxides, malonaldehyde, 8-isoprostane and 8-hydroxy-2'-deoxyguanosine increased, reaching peak concentrations at 20-24 months, and correlating with an increase in the rate of DNA unwinding, strand breaks, and positive Ames Tests. Iron-free neoplastic foci became evident at 16 months and thereafter increased in number. Preneoplastic foci were present in five of eight rats remaining at 32 months and HCC had developed in one of the five. CONCLUSIONS: Our findings are compatible with the hypothesis that the direct hepatocarcinogenic effect of free iron is mediated by the generation of oxygen reactive species and oxidative damage that are mutagenic and carcinogenic. PMID: 16337327 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > Bloodletting in hepatitis .. > Whoda .. thunk. [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > DEAD PEOPLE WALKINGhttp://tinyurl.com/zk9fk Bloodletting in hepatitis << Effects of Dietary Iron Reduction Versus Phlebotomy in Patients with Chronic Hepatitis C: Results from a Randomized, Controlled Trial on 40 Japanese Patients. Intern Med. 2007;46(10):637-642. Epub 2007 May 24. Sumida Y, Kanemasa K, Fukumoto K, Yoshida N, Sakai K. Department of Gastroenterology and Hepatology, Nara City Hospital. Background and Aim Iron may play an important role in the pathogenesis of hepatitis C. We conducted this randomized, controlled trial comparing phlebotomy with dietary iron reduction. Methods Forty patients with chronic hepatitis C showing serum ferritin levels of over 150 ng/ml wererandomized to either group A (low-iron diet for six months) or group B (phlebotomy biweekly). Phlebotomy was continued until serum ferritin had reached 20 ng/ml or less. Results At enrollment the clinical characteristics of patients in the two groups were similar. Serum ALT levels were significantly reduced in both groups, but the percent change in alanine aminotransferase (ALT) was larger in group B (median, -47.1[range, -69.1 to -16.7] %) than in group A (-24.2 [-72.6 to 15.9] %, p<0.001). In group A subjects, no correlation wasdetected between percent change in ALT and clinical parameters. In group B subjects, the baseline ALT activity was significantly correlated with percent change in ALT (p<0.05), but iron- related parameters were not correlated. Conclusion The efficacy of phlebotomy is superior to that of dietary iron reduction in chronic hepatitis C. Serum levels of transaminase activities were a better indicator for phlebotomy thanconventional indices of iron overload. PMID: 17527035 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher] Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh Man Is A Herbivore! http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3 DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk > On Apr 18, 10:36 am, "ironjust...@aol.com" <ironjust...@aol.com> > wrote: Bloodletting in hepatitis << [quoted text clipped - 131 lines] > > - Show quoted text - |
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