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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / August 2007

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for those who do their own research

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Cactus Jammies - 25 Aug 2007 17:12 GMT
http://www.webmd.com/content/tools/1/quiz_complementary_medicine

The spines on the cactus are vectors of love, if you just let them.

cactus jammies :)
Cactus Jammies - 26 Aug 2007 18:07 GMT
For those people whom for any reason (foggy) cannot do their own
research....

I have other credible sources than this quoted text that are not dancing
around the Hepatitis C issues nearly so much; such as:  "Herbs for Heaptitis
C and the Liver", author Stephen Harrod Buhner, published in 2000 by Storey
Books, ISBN 1-58017255-5 (pbk.)  Web search for the ISBN, the author or look
at publisher pages located online at:  http://www.storey.com  It is very
comprehensive and much of the Western terminology is way above my current
comprehension, such as the liver function and the interactions.

Cactus Jammies
.............................

!!!The use of COMPLEMENTARY MEDICINE DOES NOT ELIMINATE HEPATITIS C
VIRONS!!!

from http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/turmeric-000277.htm
complete with bonafides, citations, and review info....

forwarded without permission, but allowed thru compassion.  #:-p    (### my
empahsis shown as:  !!!!****)

***see precautions, in this text***.

Over the last several years, there has been increasing interest in turmeric
and its medicinal properties. This is
partially evidenced by the large numbers of scientific studies published on
this topic. Turmeric ( Curcuma longa ), a
flowering plant in the ginger family, is widely used as a food coloring and
is one of the principal ingredients in
curry powder. Turmeric has long been used in both Ayurvedic and Chinese
medicine as an anti-inflammatory, to
treat digestive disorders and liver problems, and for the treatment of skin
diseases and wound healing. The active
ingredient in turmeric is curcumin, which has been the subject of numerous
animal studies-but as of yet, very few
studies on people-demonstrating various medicinal properties. Curcumin has
been shown, for example, to
stimulate the production of bile and to facilitate the emptying of the
gallbladder. It has also demonstrated in animals
a protective effect on the liver, anti-tumor action, and ability to reduce
inflammation and fight certain infections.

Plant Description
A relative of ginger, turmeric is a perennial plant that grows 3 to 5 feet
high in the tropical regions of Southern
Asia, with trumpet-shaped, dull yellow flowers. Turmeric is fragrant and has
a bitter, somewhat sharp taste.

Parts Used
The aboveground and underground roots, or rhizomes, are used in medicinal
and food preparations. These are
generally boiled and then dried, turning into the familiar yellow powder.
Curcumin from turmeric, as well as other
substances in this herb, have antioxidant properties, which some claim may
be as strong as vitamins C and E.

Medicinal Uses and Indications
While turmeric has a long history of use by herbalists, most studies to date
have been conducted in the laboratory or
in animals and it is not clear that these results apply to people.
Nevertheless, research suggests that turmeric may be
helpful for the following conditions.

Digestive Disorders
(stomach upset, gas, abdominal cramps): The German Commission E (an
authoritative body that determined which
herbs could be safely prescribed in that country and for which purpose[s])
approved turmeric for a variety of
digestive disorders. Curcumin, for example, one of the active ingredients in
turmeric, induces the flow of bile,
which helps break down fats. In an animal study, extracts of turmeric root
reduced secretion of acid from the
stomach and protected against injuries such as inflammation along the
stomach (gastritis) or intestinal walls and
ulcers from certain medications, stress, or alcohol. Further studies are
needed to know to what extent these
protective effects apply to people as well.

Osteoarthritis
Because of its ability to reduce inflammation, turmeric may help relieve the
symptoms of osteoarthritis. A study of
people using an Ayurvedic formula of herbs and minerals containing turmeric
as well as Withinia somnifera (winter
cherry), Boswellia serrata (Boswellia), and zinc significantly reduced pain
and disability. While encouraging for
the value of this Ayurvedic combination therapy to help with osteoarthritis,
it is difficult to know how much of this
success is from turmeric alone, one of the other individual herbs, or the
combination of herbs working in tandem.

Atherosclerosis
Early studies suggest that turmeric may prove helpful in preventing the
build up of atherosclerosis (blockage of
arteries that can eventually cause a heart attack or stroke) in one of two
ways. First, in animal studies an extract of
turmeric lowered cholesterol levels and inhibited the oxidation of LDL
("bad") cholesterol. Oxidized LDL deposits
in the walls of blood vessels and contributes to the formation of
atherosclerotic plaque. Turmeric may also prevent
platelet build up along the walls of an injured blood vessel. Platelets
collecting at the site of a damaged blood
vessel cause blood clots to form and blockage of the artery as well. Studies
of the use of turmeric to prevent or treat
heart disease in people would be interesting in terms of determining if
these mechanisms discovered in animals
apply to people at risk for this condition.

Cancer *****
There has been a substantial amount of research on turmeric's anti-cancer
potential. Evidence from laboratory and
animal studies suggests that curcumin has potential in the treatment of
various forms of cancer, including prostate,
breast, skin, and colon. Human studies will be necessary before it is known
to what extent these results may apply
to people.

Roundworms and Intestinal worms
Laboratory studies suggest that curcuminoids, the active components of
turmeric, may reduce the destructive activity
of parasites or roundworms.

Liver Disease *****
Animal studies provide evidence that turmeric can protect the liver from a
number of damaging substances such as
carbon tetrachloride and acetominophen (also called paracetamol, this
medication, used commonly for headache
and pain, can cause liver damage if taken in large quantities or in someone
who drinks alcohol regularly.) Turmeric
accomplishes this, in part, by helping to clear such toxins from the body
and by protecting the liver from damage.

!!!The use of COMPLEMENTARY MEDICINE DOES NOT ELIMINATE HEPATITIS C
VIRONS!!!

Bacterial Infection ****
Turmeric's volatile oil functions as an external antibiotic, preventing
bacterial infection in wounds.

Wounds
In animal studies, turmeric applied to wounds hastens the healing process.

Mosquito Repellent
A mixture of the volatile oils of turmeric, citronella, and hairy basil,
with the addition of vanillin (an extract of
vanilla bean that is generally used for flavoring or perfumes), may be an
alternative to D.E.E.T., one of the most
common chemical repellents commercially available.

Eye Disorder
One study of 32 people with uveitis (inflammation of the uvea, the middle
layer of the eye between the sclera [white
outer coat of the eye] and the retina [the back of the eye]) suggests that
curcumin may prove to be as effective as
corticosteroids, the type of medication generally prescribed for this eye
disorder. The uvea contains many of the
blood vessels that nourish the eye. Inflammation of this area, therefore,
can affect the cornea, the retina, the sclera,
and other important parts of the eye. More research is needed to best
understand whether curcumin may help treat
this eye inflammation.

Available Forms
Turmeric is commercially available in the following forms:

Capsules containing powder
Fluid extract
Tincture
Bromelain enhances the absorption and anti-inflammatory effects of curcumin,
the best studied active ingredient of
turmeric; therefore, bromelain is often formulated with turmeric products.

How to Take It
Pediatric
While turmeric may be helpful for the treatment of inflammatory conditions
in children, appropriate doses have not
yet been established. Until more information is available, consider
adjusting the recommended adult dose to account
for the child's weight. Most herbal dosages for adults are calculated on the
basis of a 150 lb (70 kg) adult.
Therefore, if the child weighs 50 lb (20 to 25 kg), the appropriate dose of
turmeric for this child would be 1/3 of

the adult dosage.

Adult
*****The following are doses recommended for adults*****:

Cut root: 1,500 to 3,000 mg per day
Dried, powdered root: 1,000 to 3,000 mg per day
Standardized powder (curcumin): 400 to 600 mg, 3 times per day (SPICE JAR)
Fluid extract (1:1) 30 to 90 drops a day
Tincture (1:2): 15 to 30 drops, 4 times per day

Precautions *******
The use of herbs is a time-honored approach to strengthening the body and
treating disease. Herbs, however,
contain active substances that can trigger side effects and interact with
other herbs, supplements, or medications.
For these reasons, herbs should be taken with care, under the supervision of
a practitioner knowledgeable in the
field of botanical medicine.

Turmeric and curcumin are considered safe when taken at the recommended
doses. However, extended or excessive
use of curcumin may produce stomach upset and, in extreme cases, ulcers.
(Note: normal therapeutic doses of
turmeric protect from ulcers - see earlier discussion - but, at very high
doses, it may induce ulcers. This is why it is
very important to stick with the recommended dose of this herbal remedy.)
Turmeric should not be taken by those
who have been diagnosed with gallstones or obstruction of the bile passages
without explicit direction from a
qualified practitioner.

While pregnant women needn't avoid foods containing turmeric, its use as a
medicinal herb is not recommended
during pregnancy because the effects are not fully known. Studies in
pregnant rats, mice, guinea pigs, and monkeys
suggest that it is safe for those animals, but safety in pregnant women has
not been tested.

Possible Interactions ***** !!!!!
If you are currently being treated with any of the following medications,
you should not use turmeric or curcumin in
medicinal forms without first talking to your healthcare provider.

Blood-Thinning Medications
Although no scientific reports have documented a bleed or other adverse
interaction, turmeric, taken in medicinal
doses may theoretically increase the blood thinning effects and, therefore
the risk of bleeding from, drugs such as
warfarin and aspirin.

Non-Steroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs (NSAIDs)
Turmeric has shown protection in animals from the development of ulcers due
to this class of medications. NSAIDs
include indomethacin, ibuprofen, and many other drugs that are often
prescribed for pain and inflammation, such as
that of arthritis.

Reserpine
Turmeric protected animals from increased gastric secretions (secretions in
the stomach that can lead to damage
along the walls of this organ) from reserpine used for high blood pressure.

(end of pages)
.......................... bonafides, citations .........................
Supporting Research
Ammon HPT, Wahl MA. Pharmacology of Curcuma longa. Planta Medica.
1991;57:1-7.
Arbiser JL, Klauber N, Rohan R, et al. Curcumin is an in vivo inhibitor of
angiogenesis. Mol Med. 1998;4(6):376-
383.
Asai A, Miyazawa T. Dietary curcuminoids prevent high-fat diet-induced lipid
accumulation in rat liver and
epididymal adipose tissue. J Nutr . 2001;131(11):2932-2935.
Blumenthal M, Goldberg A, Brinckmann J. Herbal Medicine: Expanded Commission
E Monographs. Newton, MA:
Integrative Medicine Communications; 2000:379-384.
Curcuma longa (turmeric). Monograph. Altern Med Rev . 2001;6 Suppl:S62-S66.
Dorai T, Cao YC, Dorai B, Buttyan R, Katz AE. Therapeutic potential of
curcumin in human prostate cancer. III.
Curcumin inhibits proliferation, induces apoptosis, and inhibits
angiogenesis of LNCaP prostate cancer cells in
vivo. Prostate . 2001;47(4):293-303.
Dorai T, Gehani N, Katz A. Therapeutic potential of curcumin in human
prostate cancer. II. Curcumin inhibits
tyrosine kinase activity of epidermal growth factor receptor and depletes
the protein. Mol Urol . 2000;4(1):1-6.
Gescher A J, Sharma R A, Steward W P. Cancer chemoprevention by dietary
constituents: a tale of failure and
promise. Lancet Oncol . 2001;2(6):371-379.
Heck AM, DeWitt BA, Lukes AL. Potential interactions between alternative
therapies and warfarin. Am J Health
Syst Pharm . 2000;57(13):1221-1227.
Kawamori T, Lubet R, Steele VE, et al. Chemopreventive effect of curcumin, a
naturally occurring anti-
inflammatory agent, during the promotion/progression stages of colon cancer.
Cancer Res. 1999;59:597-601.
Kim MS, Kang HJ, Moon A. Inhibition of invasion and induction of apoptosis
by curcumin in H-ras-transformed
MCF10A human breast epithelial cells. Arch Pharm Res . 2001;24(4):349-354.
Kiuchi F, Goto Y, Sugimoto N, Akao N, Kondo K, Tsuda Y. Nematocidal activity
of turmeric: synergistic action of
curcuminoids. Chem Pharm Bull . 1993;41(9):1640-1643.
Kulkarni RR, Patki PS, Jog VP, Gandage SG, Patwardhan B. Treatment of
osteoarthritis with a herbomineral
formulation: a double-blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over study. J
Ethnopharmacol . 1991;33(1-2):91-95.
Lal B, Kapoor AK, Asthana OP, et al. Efficacy of curcumin in the management
of chronic anterior uveitis. Phytother
Res . 1999;13(4):318-322.
Luper S. A review of plants used in the treatment of liver disease: part
two. Altern Med Rev . 1999;4(3):178-188;
692.
Mehta K, Pantazis P, McQueen T, Aggarwal BB. Antiproliferative effect of
curcumin (diferuloylmethane) against
human breast tumor cell lines. Anticancer Drugs. 1997;8(5):470-481.
Nagabhushan M, Bhide SV. Curcumin as an inhibitor of cancer. J Am Coll Nutr.
1992;11(2):192-198.
Phan TT, See P, Lee ST, Chan SY. Protective effects of curcumin against
oxidative damage on skin cells in vitro:
its implication for wound healing. J Trauma 2001;51(5):927-931.
Pizzorno JE, Murray MT. Textbook of Natural Medicine . New York, NY:
Churchill Livingstone; 1999:689-692.
Ramirez-Tortosa MC, Mesa MD, Aguilera MC, et al. Oral administration of a
turmeric extract inhibits LDL
oxidation and has hypocholesterolemic effects in rabbits with experimental
atherosclerosis. Atherosclerosis .
1999;147(2):371-378.
Rao CV, Rivenson A, Simi B, Reddy BS. Chemoprevention of colon
carcinogenesis by dietary curcumin naturally
occurring plant phenolic compound. Cancer Res. 1995;55(2):259-266.
Robbers JE, Tyler V. Herbs of Choice: The Therapeutic Use of Phytomedicinals
. New York, NY: The Haworth
Herbal Press; 1999:73-74.
Sharma RA, Ireson CR, Verschoyle RD. Effects of dietary curcumin on
glutathione S -Transferase and
Malondialdehyde-DNA adducts in rat liver and colon mucosa: relationship with
drug levels. Clin Cancer Res.
2001;7:1452-1458.
Stoner GD, Mukhtar H. Polyphenols as cancer chemopreventive agents. J Cell
Biochem Suppl . 1995;22:169-180.
Tawatsin A, Wratten SD, Scott RR, Thavara U, Techadamrongsin Y. Repellency
of volatile oils from plants against
three mosquito vectors. J Vector Ecol . 2001;26(1):76-82.
Verma SP, Salamone E, Goldin B. Curcumin and genistein, plant natural
products, show synergistic inhibitory
effects on the growth of human breast cancer MCF-7 cells induced by
estrogenic pesticides. Biochem Biophys Res
Commun . 1997; 233(3): 692-696.
White L, Mavor S. Kids, Herbs, Health . Loveland, Colo: Interweave Press;
1998:41.
Review Date: 4/1/2002
Reviewed By: Participants in the review process include: Jacqueline A. Hart,
MD, Department of Internal
Medicine, Newton-Wellesley Hospital, Harvard University and Senior Medical
Editor Integrative Medicine,
Boston, MA; Gary Kracoff, RPh (Pediatric Dosing section February 2001),
Johnson Drugs, Natick, MA; Steven
Ottariono, RPh (Pediatric Dosing section February 2001), Veteran's
Administrative Hospital, Londonderry, NH; R.
Lynn Shumake, PD, Director, Alternative Medicine Apothecary, Blue Mountain
Apothecary & Healing Arts,
University of Maryland Medical Center, Glenwood, MD; David Winston,
Herbalist (January 2000), Herbalist and
Alchemist, Inc., Washington, NJ. All interaction sections have also been
reviewed by a team of experts including
Joseph Lamb, MD (July 2000), The Integrative Medicine Works, Alexandria,
VA;Enrico Liva, ND, RPh (August
2000), Vital Nutrients, Middletown, CT; Brian T Sanderoff, PD, BS in
Pharmacy (March 2000), Clinical Assistant
Professor, University of Maryland School of Pharmacy; President, Your
Prescription for Health, Owings Mills,
MD; Ira Zunin, MD, MPH, MBA (July 2000), President and Chairman, Hawaii
State Consortium for Integrative
Medicine, Honolulu, HI.
 A.D.A.M., Inc. is accredited by URAC, also known as the American
Accreditation HealthCare Commission
(www.urac.org). URAC's accreditation program is the first of its kind,
requiring compliance with 53 standards of
quality and accountability, verified by independent audit. A.D.A.M. is among
the first to achieve this important
distinction for online health information and services. Learn more about
A.D.A.M.'s editorial process . A.D.A.M. is
also a founding member of Hi-Ethics (www.hiethics.com) and subscribes to the
principles of the Health on the Net
Foundation (www.hon.ch).

***The information provided herein should not be used during any medical
emergency or for the diagnosis or
treatment of any medical condition. A licensed medical professional should
be consulted for diagnosis and
treatment of any and all medical conditions. Call 911 for all medical
emergencies. Links to other sites are provided
for information only -- they do not constitute endorsements of those other
sites. © 1997-2007 A.D.A.M., Inc. Any
duplication or distribution of the information contained herein is strictly
prohibited. *****right. lucky I live in Canada*****

> http://www.webmd.com/content/tools/1/quiz_complementary_medicine
Cactus Jammies - 26 Aug 2007 18:16 GMT
http://tinyurl.com/2blsox

Above is the condensed url for review of the book.  ISBN number somehow does
not fit into the search that I did.  Obviously my mistake somewhere. -cj

> I have other credible sources than this quoted text that are not dancing
> around the Hepatitis C issues nearly so much; such as:  "Herbs for
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> !!!The use of COMPLEMENTARY MEDICINE DOES NOT ELIMINATE HEPATITIS C
> VIRONS!!!
Cody - 26 Aug 2007 18:52 GMT
> Standardized powder (curcumin): 400 to 600 mg, 3 times per day (SPICE JAR)

How many teaspoons does that translate into?

Thanks,

Signature

Cody
To email me, remove shoes first

Cactus Jammies - 26 Aug 2007 21:02 GMT
for chronic hepatitis

>> Standardized powder (curcumin): 400 to 600 mg, 3 times per day (SPICE
>> JAR)
>
> How many teaspoons does that translate into?
>
> Thanks,

Hi Cody,
In the other book I mentioned, the recommendation is to make of a paste of
the (curcumin) Turmeric powder, it recommeds three marble-sized balls as a
tonic (or four times a day for those of us with acute or chronic Hep).  Or
one teaspoon of powder four times daily.  I was way below that up until I
found the professionally recommended dosage.
The Herbs for Hep C book first of all, advises that this should NOT be
taken by those whom have a bile obstruction. (page 51 in my copy)  The paste
balls are the easiest to consume by popping them into the back of your mouth
and swallowing with lots of water.  The downside of preparing the paste
balls is that turmeric is staining, fingers included!  (False jaundice :)
??? ha ha  I just shovelled a teaspoon of it into a Kimchi soup, so the
taste of it would be hardly noticable, I am going to find out in a minute
after the soup has steeped.

Turmeric paste (p. 51 Herbs..Hep C)
Tumeric Marbles

1/4 cup  (50 grams) of turmeric - or quick math says that would be almost 4
weeks supply for the like of us?  (500mg x 4 daily x 28 days?)
1/2 cup water (120 ml)

"Combine Turmeric and water in a sauce pan, bring to a low boil and cook,
stirring constantly until mixture becomes a thick paste."
"Remove from heat and let cool.  Roll into balls and store in a sealed
container in the fridge"
============================

cactus jammies  ------------   Bob Mackie

for chronic hepatitis

>> Standardized powder (curcumin): 400 to 600 mg, 3 times per day (SPICE
>> JAR)
>
> How many teaspoons does that translate into?
>
> Thanks,
Cody - 27 Aug 2007 00:26 GMT
> for chronic hepatitis
>>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>>
>> Thanks,

Thanks for the info.

Signature

Cody
To email me, remove shoes first

Cactus Jammies - 27 Aug 2007 11:46 GMT
"Cody" <mpcody@shoesgmail.com> wrote >>

> Thanks for the info.

A pleasure.

Take care of yourself

cj -------------
Waterspider - 26 Aug 2007 19:36 GMT
> <snippage>.............................
>
> !!!The use of COMPLEMENTARY MEDICINE DOES NOT ELIMINATE HEPATITIS C
> VIRONS!!!

Thank you for that.
Although those who enjoy ridiculing me may find it hard to believe, this ng
has a lot of lurkers and some of them would believe otherwise.
Normin - 26 Aug 2007 20:16 GMT
>> <snippage>.............................
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> believe, this ng has a lot of lurkers and some of them would
> believe otherwise.

There are also a lot of folks reading this newsgroup who TX
didn't work for, or they relapsed, and they would like to learn
about some ways to help their liver if possible while they wait
for new meds to come along.  I think it's a good thing for folks
to share the things that work/worked for them, and let the rest
of us make up our own minds whether those methods are worth
looking into or not.

For instance, many people who participate in this group use/used
marijuana to help them get through the side effects of TX.
Shrug, if that's your bag, go for it.  I didn't choose to go that
route but I didn't holler "snake oil" at everyone who recommended
it to others.  Not sure I see a big difference between those
endorsing pot, and those endorsing milk thistle or other natural
herbs as helpful while undergoing TX.

Of course I disagree with anyone saying you can cure HepC without
the current proper meds!  But I really believe MOST of the
lurkers and posters here know better...  at least I sure hope so!

Sara
Waterspider - 29 Aug 2007 17:42 GMT
"Normin" <norminfishbait@aol.com> wrote
<some snippage>
> I think it's a good thing for folks to share the things that work/worked
> for them, and let the rest of us make up our own minds whether those
> methods are worth looking into or not.

Yes, as long as we don't rely on anecdotal evidence and unsubstantiated
claims as proof of effectiveness.

> For instance, many people who participate in this group use/used marijuana
> to help them get through the side effects of TX.

And you probably didn't know that I was one of them :-)

> Shrug, if that's your bag, go for it.  I didn't choose to go that route
> but I didn't holler "snake oil" at everyone who recommended it to others.
> Not sure I see a big difference between those endorsing pot, and those
> endorsing milk thistle or other natural herbs as helpful while undergoing
> TX.

Marijuana has been scientifically proven to reduce the nausea side effect of
chemo, and it is available by prescription.
Hardly snake oil.

> Of course I disagree with anyone saying you can cure HepC without the
> current proper meds!  But I really believe MOST of the lurkers and posters
> here know better...  at least I sure hope so!

Your belief and hope does not make it so. If everyone knew better, there
would be no market for Miracle Cures.
But, you say "most" know better... don't you have even a small bit of
concern for the others?
Normin - 29 Aug 2007 18:33 GMT
> "Normin" <norminfishbait@aol.com> wrote
> <some snippage>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> But, you say "most" know better... don't you have even a small
> bit of concern for the others?

Duh, gee, no.... I sit here in my own little world and don't give
a crap about anyone else who's dealing with the HepC virus.
That's why I am still reading these posts, and contributing my
thoughts to this group when I feel they may be helpful.

ya know, I think you don't give folks enough credit.  The people
I've seen posting on this group are, as a group, a pretty smart
bunch of people.  They're doing their research, they're asking
questions, and they're trying to find out what works and what
doesn't.  You can't blame people for trying to find an alternate
to conventional treatment.... but if they are smart enough to go
looking for answers, they are going to eventually find the right
ones :)

By all means, PLEASE keep sharing YOUR experiences with TX.   I
learned a LOT from you when I first joined this group, and it
made a difference when I actually started TX that I already knew
to drink lots of water, to be aware that I was going to become a
screaming crying crazy lady, that I'd have horrible fatigue and
itch all over....  but when you became critical and/or abusive to
me or other people for various reasons, that really turned me off
and then my natural reaction was to not want to hear your
'advice' anymore, since you were being so unpleasant about it
all.  YES, folks need to know that there are lots of BAD things
out there for HepC'ers... but they don't need to be beaten over
the head with a big stick to get the picture.  Maybe if you
pretend that you believe there are a 'few' intelligent people
reading your posts, you might figure out why so many of us resent
the way you word things.

or, don't you have even a small bit of concern that you may be
upsetting people and making them defensive when you go on the
attack the way you do?  How many people could you have helped
that you chased away instead with your determination that YOUR
way is the ONLY way??
kjoh - 29 Aug 2007 22:42 GMT
"And you probably didn't know that I was one of them :-)"

What a slobbering fool you are.  Do you think there is anyone here who
doesn't know you are stoned every time you post?  Get real.  Get an
education.

kj
Waterspider - 31 Aug 2007 20:25 GMT
> "And you probably didn't know that I was one of them :-)"
>
> What a slobbering fool you are.  Do you think there is anyone here who
> doesn't know you are stoned every time you post?  Get real.  Get an
> education.

Kjoh, this is rude, uncalled for and innacurate to the extreme.
Just what is your problem with me?
Is it because I don't believe in a god or that my treatment was successful?
I didn't vote for Bush...
Cactus Jammies - 26 Aug 2007 21:02 GMT
I bow to the corner that contains the leeries.   :)

Bob cj

>> <snippage>.............................
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Although those who enjoy ridiculing me may find it hard to believe, this
> ng has a lot of lurkers and some of them would believe otherwise.
 
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