Hi all
Can someone explain the meaning of the term 2 log drop. As in what,
mathematically, is a log?
I finished my 12 sweeks today and took my 13th shot about an hour ago. Gave
blood this AM and go back Thursday afternoon for results. NTWBIC says VR
response may not be available then.
I am getting a really bad feeling, she said something once about a 3 log
drop to stay in the program and the BCLD was talking about liver transplants
at last appointment.
I let them both know that if they were planning on booting me after these
miserable 12 weeks, to get ready for a fight if I wasn't convinced they were
correct in my treatment protocals, and the shrink agrees. Also all tests
have been in acceptable ranges all along.
Thanks
DrDigger
greyhackles - 18 Jul 2007 03:56 GMT
>Hi all
>Can someone explain the meaning of the term 2 log drop. As in what,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Thanks
>DrDigger
Each log drop represents a 9/10ths reduction - or 90% reduction - in viral
load. So a two log drop would be a 99% reduction (9/10ths of 9/10ths).
A three log drop by week 12 requirement seems new to me - is this the
insurance company talking or are you enrolled in a study? (sorry - can't
remember your particulars). A two log drop at 12 weeks may not be a standard
yet but I suspect there are many insurance companies that are heading there.
Have you had any other viral load tests since you started treatment?
How about LFTs?
/greyhackles
g - 18 Jul 2007 04:32 GMT
>>Hi all
>>Can someone explain the meaning of the term 2 log drop. As in what,
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> /greyhackles
Only viral load test done was when I was diagnosed.
Don't know/ remember what LFT is.
Am being treated at VA in Leavenworth Kansas
greyhackles - 18 Jul 2007 15:04 GMT
>>>Hi all
>>>Can someone explain the meaning of the term 2 log drop. As in what,
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>Don't know/ remember what LFT is.
>Am being treated at VA in Leavenworth Kansas
LFTs = Liver Function Tests (ALT/AST/ALK)
Without intermediate viral load tests, about the only way your NTWBIC could
have any clue about your current condition would be if your ALT was relatively
unchanged from pre-therapy level.
You said "all tests have been in acceptable ranges all along."
Perhaps expanding on that a bit might help, because it's unusual for a
pre-therapy HCV patient.
One thing that strikes me: if you really didn't have a viral load test *just
prior* to starting therapy, how the hell is the doc going to determine the 12
week viral load drop? Most folks don't begin therapy for *months* (if not
years) after diagnosis, and untreated viral load can vary by a factor of ten
(ie: one log)...
Cheers
/greyhackles
Waterspider - 18 Jul 2007 05:51 GMT
> ... As in what, mathematically, is a log?
We are so very lucky that Elmo isn't on Usenet these days...
<g>
Waterspider - 18 Jul 2007 06:00 GMT
> Hi all
> Can someone explain the meaning of the term 2 log drop. As in what,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Thanks
> DrDigger
After 12 weeks, if you have a 2-log drop in viral load, it's pretty much a
done deal that your treatment is working and you will achieve an SVR. An SVR
is a "sustained viral response" which means that there is no detectible
virus in your bloodstream six months after you complete treatment. Which
pretty much means that you're cured.
Very few people have the virus detected after six months. Unfortunately,
tests are not accurate enough to detect very small amounts of virus, so if
you had 2 copies per million of hcv in your blood six months after treatment
(yes, highly unlikely), it might take a year or two for it to reach a
detectible level. Fortunately, this rarely happens, so if you have no
detectible hcv after two years, you can consider your treatment successful.
I've never heard of a 3-log drop as a requirement to complete treatment. The
only reason I can think of is that you're on a drug trial and the test is to
see if a 3-log drop is possible in 12 weeks, but you would have been advised
if this is a condition of your treatment.
Keep us posted. This is interesting.
Take care, and drink lots of water <g>
Waterspider
greyhackles - 18 Jul 2007 14:51 GMT
>> Hi all
>> Can someone explain the meaning of the term 2 log drop. As in what,
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>After 12 weeks, if you have a 2-log drop in viral load, it's pretty much a
>done deal that your treatment is working and you will achieve an SVR.
[...]
That's statistically unsupportable. As a positive indicator of SVR, a 2-log
drop after 12 weeks of therapy is quite weak. Otoh, as a negative indicator
of SVR, failure to obtain *at least* a 2-log drop by week 12 is very strong
indeed.
Perhaps you're confusing this with the EVR test at week 4?
Cheers
/greyhackles
Waterspider - 21 Jul 2007 01:00 GMT
>>After 12 weeks, if you have a 2-log drop in viral load, it's pretty much a
>>done deal that your treatment is working and you will achieve an SVR.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Cheers
> /greyhackles
Thank you for correcting me. I honestly don't know what the f.ck I was
thinking, I know better.
Must have been an attack of latent optimism... or maybe something I smoked.
Sorry for the post.
Waterspider
Paul - 18 Jul 2007 06:59 GMT
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 02:30:40 GMT, "g" <drdigger@sbcglobal.net>, in
message ID <kXeni.23197$Rw1.7474@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>, in the
>Hi all
>Can someone explain the meaning of the term 2 log drop. As in what,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Thanks
>DrDigger
As greyhackles say, a 2 log drop is a 99% drop. I suppose the easiest
way to look at it is to knock two noughts off the end of the starting
viral load number. If the number you have after 12 weeks is less than
that then you've got the 2 log drop required to continue tx. Like the
others, I've not heard of a 3 log drop being the requirement before.
My start viral load was only 91,000 so would have left me needing 91
or less. In the event, it was undetectable and stayed that way until
18 months after tx. Presumably it's still undetectable nearly 3 years
after tx but maybe should get it checked again in case I'm an unusual
case.
Waterspider - 18 Jul 2007 07:40 GMT
> On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 02:30:40 GMT, "g" <drdigger@sbcglobal.net>, in
> message ID <kXeni.23197$Rw1.7474@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>, in the
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> after tx but maybe should get it checked again in case I'm an unusual
> case.
Yeah, definitely get tested again. You don't have hepatitis C anymore, of
course, but it just feels so good to see the test results, one more time, in
black and white. I go back every year or two for a test, just because the
results still make me smile for the whole day.
Paul - 19 Jul 2007 05:51 GMT
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:40:35 -0700, "Waterspider" <nospam@all.com>, in
message ID <139rdfhb363jsd4@corp.supernews.com>, in the newsgroup
alt.support.hepatitis-c wrote:
>Yeah, definitely get tested again. You don't have hepatitis C anymore, of
>course, but it just feels so good to see the test results, one more time, in
>black and white. I go back every year or two for a test, just because the
>results still make me smile for the whole day.
It's not just about that WS.
I did play a part in a late friend's care who died due to HCV a while
back. Although I am HCV aware, there was some blood around shortly
before he died. I had no noticeable cuts of my own so very unlikely
there was any blood to blood contact but the alcohol handwash did
cause some stinging so perhaps there were some small nicks. I did
take care to keep the blood on the far side of the tissues from my
(ungloved) hand. I reckon the risk factor is as close to zero as you
can get but no harm in getting re-checked as it's now more than 6
months since his death.
Kozure Ookami - 18 Jul 2007 08:29 GMT
>Hi all
>Can someone explain the meaning of the term 2 log drop. As in what,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Thanks
>DrDigger
I was treated by the VA as well and I think in that second statement
you mean 2 log drop. Nobody checks for a 3 log drop as far as I know.
Also, they weren't telling you that because they were planning to boot
you. Genotype 1 patients who don't achieve a 2 log drop by 12 weeks
of treatment face a very poor chance for SVR and most places will stop
treatment because of that. A better idea might be to try switching to
a different interferon. I don't know if the VA has that kind of
flexibility but that might be worth a try if you don't get that 2 log
drop. But let's not jump to conclusions here. You may get that 2 log
drop. Let's hope so. Good luck to you DrDigger.
Don