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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / September 2003

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Question on infection

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Dwight - 27 Sep 2003 17:02 GMT
I have been wondering if it would be possible to re-infect one's self if
a syringe was used more than once?  This is not something I've tried, or
plan to try, with my tx medications, but I have re-used the needles on
my insulin pen and the lancet that I use for testing my glucose levels.
 I should clarify that this is for a day or two, not for weeks at a
time.  My thoughts would lead me to believe that during the last 24
weeks of tx the virus should not be detectable and therefore not be
passed forward.  This is just a question that occurred to me this
morning while injecting my insulin, never worried about it before
because I just thought that the only thing contaminating the needles
came from me to start with.

Dwight
(4 down 44 to go)
Thomas Wagner - 27 Sep 2003 19:02 GMT
>I have been wondering if it would be possible to re-infect one's self if
>a syringe was used more than once?  
>  I should clarify that this is for a day or two, not for weeks at a
>time.

I don't think that would be an issue. If you keep the stuff around and
use it after weeks, I'd be more concerned. But from one day to the next?
What you're potentially reintroducing into your bloodstream is much less
than what's left in some parts of your body. Still, I wonder if it
wouldn't be worth changing your re-use practice for the time you're on
treatment, just for the peace of mind.

Thomas
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hoofprints - 27 Sep 2003 19:18 GMT
> >I have been wondering if it would be possible to re-infect one's self if
> >a syringe was used more than once?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> --
> To reach me, complete my last name in the address.

Except he could be introducing *other* infection causing organisms, so it is
best to use new syringes.
Hoof
A.Melon - 28 Sep 2003 13:00 GMT
> >I have been wondering if it would be possible to re-infect one's self if
> >a syringe was used more than once?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Thomas

You don't think, full stop. One is supposed to be injecting into subcutaneous
tissue and not the blood stream.

A dirty needle lying around for several days could collect all sorts of
contamination couldn't it? Have you never grown a fungus on a piece of damp
bread? You take a piece of bread and soak it and leave it in a suitable vessel
in a warm place in your home and wait three days, and see what you get even in
the most meticulously clean home. If this can happen to a piece of bread then
imagine what is happening to the blood on a used needle.

Needles should be used *once* and *once* only.

This is why people like you practicing medicine on the internet are a hazard
Wagner. You read things and think that makes you a genius when you don't even
show a modicum of basic scientific knowledge.
chop - 27 Sep 2003 20:54 GMT
heh . . . i boiled my nail clippers and pocket knife . . . thats how
neurotic i am

chop

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> I have been wondering if it would be possible to re-infect one's self if
> a syringe was used more than once?  This is not something I've tried, or
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Dwight
> (4 down 44 to go)
Paul - 27 Sep 2003 23:33 GMT
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:54:28 GMT, "chop" <nospam@sonic.net>, in
message ID <UVldb.25004$dk4.789834@typhoon.sonic.net>, in the
newsgroup alt.support.hepatitis-c wrote:

>heh . . . i boiled my nail clippers and pocket knife . . . thats how
>neurotic i am

I don't blame you either.
I had been wondering similar stuff about razor blades.  If I'm
supposed to use a fresh blade for each shave, maybe I'll switch away
from Mach3 for a while as I would go bankrupt :-)

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Waterspider - 28 Sep 2003 04:55 GMT
| heh . . . i boiled my nail clippers and pocket knife . . . thats how
| neurotic i am

You want neurotic? Here's neurotic:

I not only turfed my nail clippers and pocket knife, but my toothbrush, hair
brushes, combs, ear-rings (pierced), manicure scissors, sewing scissors,
kitchen scissors, tweezers, sewing needles, push pins, gardening hand tools
(including a set of really nice shears), all cosmetics, and only three sharp
kitchen knives I owned. About the only thing I kept was disposable razors
that were still in the package. But I thought about it.

Waterspider
Mom - 28 Sep 2003 05:46 GMT
That's not neurotic, WS. That's probably smart.
Mom

> | heh . . . i boiled my nail clippers and pocket knife . . . thats how
> | neurotic i am
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Waterspider
Russ Tanner - 28 Sep 2003 06:11 GMT
earrings, I never thought about that being a guy. I'm going to pass that
along to Kiak.....

Signature

Russ Tanner
Palmer, Alaska
email: russ at tannersacre.com
http://www.tannersacre.com

> | heh . . . i boiled my nail clippers and pocket knife . . . thats how
> | neurotic i am
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Waterspider
szozu - 28 Sep 2003 11:15 GMT
Russ,
Pierced ears don't bleed--especially if you've had them done 30 or 40 years
ago! If you're going to get that compulsive about things, you might as well
throw away all your shoes too, just in case you're ever had a bleeding
blister! None of that is really necessary. The virus is not eternal out of
the body, but whatever floats yer boat! Anyways, you can't live like that. I
badly slashed my thumb on the metal door of a shop towards the end of tx
with blood gushing down and a piece of meat hanging off, but you can't go
through life thinking that every time you scratch yourself on thorns when
you're out hiking is going to mean re-infection. Where does it stop? They
made motorcycle riders wear helmets, then bicycle riders, then children on
scooters and tricycles, next thing you know, they'll be required for
pedestrians. You can't protect yourself from everything and some of the most
paranoid people I know (in terms of germs) are the ones that always seem to
be getting sick the most. Life happens in spite of all the precautions you
might take.

Generally bleach is used as a disinfecting agent for fresh blood spills in
medical offices and you can certainly soak your metallic objects in it. I
don't know about shoes, though. And don't forget to put on your goggles,
rubber gloves and plastic suit while pouring it out of the bottle!  :-)

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/pphb-dgspsp/msds-ftss/msds77e.html

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/pphb-dgspsp/publicat/ccdr-rmtc/01vol27/27s3/27s3o_e.html

Actually, there was a very interesting programme a few years ago on public
television about polio. Towards the end of the programme, the question "Why
did it happen? was posed. Surprisingly, the answer was "better hygiene and
sanitation." The virus is found in the soil throughout the world and
children used to be exposed to it from an early age. During the last
century, people started becoming aware of microbes, especially after WW II
and children were no longer exposed to these viruses at a young age,
building up no immunity. They theorize that the devastating effect of polio
was a result of this. Lately scientists have been warning about using all
those anti-bacterial soaps that have infested the marketplace. They aren't
generally necessary and they do more harm than good in the long run.

Lana

> earrings, I never thought about that being a guy. I'm going to pass that
> along to Kiak.....
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> >
> > Waterspider
Waterspider - 28 Sep 2003 19:22 GMT
| Pierced ears don't bleed--especially if you've had them done 30 or 40 years
| ago!

I go for long periods without wearing earrings, and the hole sometimes
"heals over" and has to be re-punctured (with the chosen ear-ring). I know
it's obsessive, but it made me feel better to turf them. All but the diamond
studs, but I won't wear them until I find out how to properly sterilize
them.

If you're going to get that compulsive about things, you might as well
| throw away all your shoes too, just in case you're ever had a bleeding
| blister!

Owmygawd, I forgot about that!!!
<runs to the closet to deep-six several pairs of really nice shoes>

The virus is not eternal out of
| the body,

Non-detectible and non-existant aren't mutually exclusive, and I sure hope
my virus is eternally out of my body.

Btw, I went to the local hairdresser last week to have my hair "evened out"
(I'd been hacking away at it for months) and if I was still on tx I probably
*would* have tried suicide after I had a good look at it in the mirror. Oh
well, at least it's stopped falling out and will grow back "better than
ever." I'm really liking bandanas these days...

Hope you're feeling better, Lana.

Waterspider
szozu - 28 Sep 2003 19:45 GMT
> Btw, I went to the local hairdresser last week to have my hair "evened out"
> (I'd been hacking away at it for months) and if I was still on tx I probably
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Hope you're feeling better, Lana.

I gave myself what amounted to a buzz cut out of frustration, but it does
seem to be feeling thicker these days. And aren't there obedience classes
for cowlicks?

I am starting to feel better bit by bit. My haemoglobin is now normal. I've
lost most of the neuropathy, though my toes are still numb. And I see the
doctor on Tuesday to talk about the sarcoidosis.

Glad to hear you've gone back to having a life.

Lana
hepone1 - 28 Sep 2003 23:36 GMT
Lana, when I was put on hold in the clinical trial, the doctor told the
nurse to put me on hold, not to do an exit report. He turns to me and says
that he was doing it till they find out what I have, he says it could be
sarcoidosis, because that could be brought on by the interferon. Now I'm
sitting there thinking, is this suppose to make me feel better. It's not
cancer, but I will have to wait for some Tx that doesn't use interferon. I
wonder if he thought of that later, and went DUH... LOL
Larry

> > Btw, I went to the local hairdresser last week to have my hair "evened
> out"
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Lana
szozu - 29 Sep 2003 01:37 GMT
Hey Larry,
My dermatologist told me not to freak out too much at the sarcoidosis
diagnosis because IFN-induced sarc generally goes away by
itself--eventually. All my other tests to determine if I have systemic
sarcoidosis seem to be negative. Believe me, you're better off with hep C
than with full-blown sarcoidosis. And if you've a tendency towards
auto-immune illnesses, you really don't want to go on IFN, as you can do
serious damage to yourself. I'm still waiting to see if I'm getting out of
this adventure with more problems than going in.

All the suspense must be killing you, but at least you've got some other
options besides cancer. :-)

I still can't get over the fact that my hep doctor didn't even recognize my
sarcoidosis!

All the best!
Lana

> Lana, when I was put on hold in the clinical trial, the doctor told the
> nurse to put me on hold, not to do an exit report. He turns to me and says
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> wonder if he thought of that later, and went DUH... LOL
> Larry
A.Melon - 29 Sep 2003 21:00 GMT
> And if you've a tendency towards
> auto-immune illnesses, you really don't want to go on IFN, as you can do
> serious damage to yourself. I'm still waiting to see if I'm getting out of
> this adventure with more problems than going in.
>
> Lana

Damn it Lana, why don't you wake up? You were such a source of inspiration for
me and I wish you would listen just this one time. Haven't you noticed how your
health has deteriorated since you started listening to those who practice(d)
lies and deceit? For crying out loud woman, what is the most powerful part of
the human body? The *mind*

The mind can work for us or it can work against us. So what do you think is the
cause of most auto-immune diseases? Come on woman, wake up before it's too
late. What composes your genetic make-up? Why did you have this need to listen
to the oily sweet supportive words of a man who often revealed the bile that
infested his very being, yet others made excuses for him? *WHY?*

Don't you see that what makes us slaves is the need to listen and believe in  
warm comforting words instead of believing what we can clearly see is the truth
for ourselves? *Our* own decision made from day to day, hour by hour, minute by
minute and second by second.

Come on Lana, please listen to me. You are too smart to be taken in by those
who think the body rules the mind. They think backwards. Please see it for
yourself and wake up.

Alan
A.Melon - 30 Sep 2003 15:02 GMT
> > And if you've a tendency towards
> > auto-immune illnesses, you really don't want to go on IFN, as you can do
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Damn it Lana, why don't you wake up?

But on the other hand Sys-Tek, you told me you are a genius so I guess you
don't need to wake up. *snigger*

It's strange how a genius like you is still going on about how you have
forgiven your parents four years after you told me how you had forgiven them. I
always thought that with forgiveness comes a gradual forgetting of whatever you
perceived as wrongs done against you, because after all parents are only human
too and make mistakes like the rest of us mere mortals, but then you are a
genius aren't you and special rules apply I guess.

It's strange how a genius like you with iron mental discipline stomped out of
smdh telling the rest of us to put the lights out. One might almost think the
iron mental discipline had slipped and you had lost your temper because things
weren't going your way but then surely a genius would never lose her temper or
want things her own way? Surely not? *snigger*

It's strange how you encouraged me to argue with Lynne when I was impatient
with her for not understanding electronics. Why should she listen to me when
the whole world was claiming her car wouldn't start on 1st Jan 2000? The fault
was mine for being impatient and Lynne was rightly agrieved with my impatience,
yet there were you and Davey-Boi emailing us both absolute *lies* about the
other. Still Lynne and I aren't genii so I guess we just see liars as liars,
and don't understand the convoluted mind of a genius.

Now I see you labelling me a "Troll" even though you know we (You and I and a
few others) struggled hard in the beginning to get the message count up so
servers would pick up this newsgroup, and the only time I, along with you, ever
argued in here was when Rick Adams stomped some poor guy who then turned on us
for protecting him. (By the way have you noticed since the gators left smdh the
message count has dropped so much that servers are now dropping it like hot
cakes?)

And here I see a genius like you all chummy with Thomas who, being one of those
priests at the alter of the great god science who are no different to any other
priest at any other alter, spouts science without even understanding the basic
principles and claims to have the equivalent of a degree in mathematics yet
can't do the basic high school algebra with e=mc2? Einstien put it that way
because the speed of light is a known constant but a constant squared is just
another constant making it e=mC yet a genius like you can't see what that
means? *snigger*

Well damn it Sys-Tek, I just wish I was a genius like you and knew everything,
then I wouldn't have to spend my life asking questions from genii who tell me
that liars are nice friendly supportive people, because for the life of me the
way I see it is that a liar is somebody you can't trust but then I guess I have
to battle on with being a mere mortal who has to keep asking questions. Oh yes,
and why is it I remember a *whiney* voice *whining* on about people stabbing
their friends in the back? I hear there's a few people who are starting to
think you might be one of those who do that very thing, but for the time being
I'm the only one you have to contend with, and all I have done is ask awkward
questions and let people know that you are a genius who thinks we were created
as slaves to little green men, and give you your correct title of sys-tek. We
wouldn't want anybody to underestimate your considerable computer skills would
we, after all there are people around who think computers don't get hot inside.

Lord Cerne Abbas
Firestar - 29 Sep 2003 03:07 GMT
Glad to hear you're feeling better Lana.  A pleasant change, I imagine.
Thom
--
If you want to email me, replace the "z" with a "c"

> > Btw, I went to the local hairdresser last week to have my hair "evened
> out"
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Lana
A.Melon - 28 Sep 2003 11:28 GMT
> | heh . . . i boiled my nail clippers and pocket knife . . . thats how
> | neurotic i am
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Waterspider

You're so right Waterspider, that is *neurotic*, but then what else can we
expect from a grade eighter living in a trailer park?
heppiechik - 28 Sep 2003 13:11 GMT
When did you do this, after tx or what?
HC

> | heh . . . i boiled my nail clippers and pocket knife . . . thats how
> | neurotic i am
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Waterspider
Shawn - 28 Sep 2003 17:05 GMT
I tossed the only razor I've ever found that worked on my
tough beard. Bought an electric so my wife wouldn't
accidentally use it!!!

Signature

Regards,
      Shawn
.

> When did you do this, after tx or what?
> HC
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> >
> > Waterspider
Waterspider - 28 Sep 2003 19:27 GMT
| When did you do this, after tx or what?
| HC

A lot of the stuff went after I got my non-detectible result (about the
fourth month) and everything else followed the week after my last shot. Yes,
as others have pointed out, my behaviour was obsessive and paranoid, but
what the hey...  why take the chance?

Waterspider
Paul - 29 Sep 2003 07:59 GMT
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:27:05 -0700, "Waterspider" <noapam@all>, in
message ID <vne9v0g6nboe39@corp.supernews.com>, in the newsgroup
alt.support.hepatitis-c wrote:

>A lot of the stuff went after I got my non-detectible result (about the
>fourth month) and everything else followed the week after my last shot. Yes,
>as others have pointed out, my behaviour was obsessive and paranoid, but
>what the hey...  why take the chance?

Too right.  I don't want to go through this stuff more than once
either.

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Kilowatt - 27 Sep 2003 23:48 GMT
Undetectable doesn't mean HCV negative.  It still leaves the question
what undetectable does mean?  If it is still in your system and it is,
how can we be sure that just because you can't measure it that it is
still not doing damage?

I

>I have been wondering if it would be possible to re-infect one's self if
>a syringe was used more than once?  This is not something I've tried, or
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Dwight
>(4 down 44 to go)

Want to email me?
My email address is kilowatt@charterpants.net.
Remove pants for my email address.
Put "private" in the subject line.
Fee Fi - 28 Sep 2003 03:02 GMT
> Undetectable doesn't mean HCV negative.  It still leaves the question
> what undetectable does mean?  If it is still in your system and it is,
> how can we be sure that just because you can't measure it that it is
> still not doing damage?

Good question, and there are data to answer it.  Three situations seems to
be relevant:

Without treatment, some people are found to be repeatedly antibody (EIA)
positive, and if tested with the RIBA test they have multiple bands
(indicating that the antibodies are really specific for HCV), yet HCV RNA is
repeatedly not detectable in their serum.  [I use repeatedly here to
emphasize the importance of repeating tests, as strange things can happen
once]  Multiple publications have shown that these people, unless recently
infected, have truly cleared the virus - they do not develop liver disease
(unless for another reason), and examination of liver tissue reveals no
detectable HCV RNA.  Also, a few transfusions and transplants from such
people, during lookback investigation, have not resulted in transmission of
HCV to the recipient.

Undetectable _on_ treatment is an unclear status - some people will
ultimately stay HCV-negative, others will become viremic again.

Undetectable _after_ treatment (6 months or longer) is like the first
group - the virus does not seem to reappear unless the person resumes risky
behavior, and liver biopsy shows no detectable virus.  Can it be _proven_
that the HCV is really gone?  No - it is next to impossible to prove the
negative, but the things that matter, like risk of advancing liver disease
and liver cancer, seem to be low in people after successful treatment.

- FF
CHEZ - 30 Sep 2003 14:57 GMT
I would not do that!!!!

> I have been wondering if it would be possible to re-infect one's self if
> a syringe was used more than once?  This is not something I've tried, or
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Dwight
> (4 down 44 to go)
 
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