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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / February 2007Depression debate
High fives to everyone who took the high road in this debate, yes debate, about depression that we all so carefully tiptoe around. It's difficult not to get personal with someone who disagrees with *your* particular diagnosis of your own depression, yes? Is it easier to acknowledge that you're mentally ill or physically ill? Because of a lifetime of misinformation, stigma and ignorance (society's), we're all pretty defensive about the topic. I think we've all been depressed, some time in our lives, because of hep c, tx, drugs (including alcohol), personal situations and/or a chemical imbalance in our grey matter. Some treat with drugs (rx or otherwise), some with lifestyle changes, some with meditation. There is substantial, scientific evidence that meditation can control, if not "cure" depression. Each treatment is valid, each treatment is effective in some cases. Others can't handle their depression and live a life of despair, perhaps ending the pain early, by their own hand. There is no consenses in the medical field about the definitive cause and correct treatment for depression. For each person who gets back on track with Prozac, there is another who slips deeper into their depression. Doctors switch meds, add new ones to an anti-d cocktail, and there are as many failures as successes in this shotgun approach to treating the symptoms of depression. Note that I said symptoms, not disease. The symptoms are, besides behavioural problems, chemical activity (or lack thereof) that can be tested, measured and documented. This is why we can call depression a disease. But, in fact, we do not know the cause of the symptom of chemical imbalance. It could be a physical injury or disability of the brain or central nervous system, but it could also be a personality disability or "injury" that results in production or suppression of chemicals in the brain. Depression could be like cancer, not one disease but a whole collection of diseases lumped together because we used to assume that cancer was cancer was cancer and if a cure was found for one it would work for all. This is a topic that should be of great interest to all of us. Not only does peg-ifn & riba tx for hep c cause depression, but so does hepatitis c itself. We'll learn a lot more if we can control our impulses to lash out at someone we don't like. We can all contribute something valuable to this discussion. ------------ Waterspider So every case is different: I was becoming more and more dysfunctional. I would have periods where I could not get out of bed. I was in therapy. I had no history of anything like this before the tx. I was in danger of losing my job and my home. I had to do something. I tried Lexapro, it worked well then stopped working. Tried again to go without but did a quick fast downspiral. I've been on Wellbutrin for a couple of months. I feel *normal*. I don't want to be on it for the rest of my life, and I'm talking to friends and doing research on what could be non-drug alternatives. I think this quote pretty much summarizes my feelings on the subject: "It is hard for people who have not experienced clinical depression, either personally or by regular exposure to people suffering it, to understand its emotional impact and severity, interpreting it instead as being similar to "having the blues" or "feeling down." [As the list of symptoms above indicates,] clinical depression is a serious, potentially lethal systemic disorder characterized by the psychiatric profession as interlocking physical, affective, and cognitive symptoms that have consequences for function and survival well beyond sad or painful feelings." G > High fives to everyone who took the high road in this debate, yes debate, > about depression that we all so carefully tiptoe around. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > ------------ > Waterspider "There is substantial, scientific evidence that meditation can control, if not "cure" depression." No there isn't. kj > "There is substantial, scientific evidence that meditation can control, if > not "cure" depression." > No there isn't. > kj KJ, I know you're the queen of internet research, so I can only assume that you've seen this and choose to disregard it, for whatever reason: Exercises that elicit the relaxation response can help your body erase the cumulative effects of stress, according to "Stress Management: Techniques for Preventing and Easing Stress," a new report from Harvard Medical School. The report explains that stress has been linked with such physical problems as heart attack, stroke, gastrointestinal problems and asthma, as well as emotional problems like depression, anxiety and an inability to enjoy life. The relaxation response, the opposite of the stress response, is a state of profound rest and release. A number of physiological changes occur during the relaxation response. When a person meditates, for example, heartbeat and respiration slow down. The body uses less oxygen and produces less carbon dioxide. Blood lactate levels, which some researchers believe are linked with anxiety attacks, decline markedly. Blood pressure tends to stabilize in healthy individuals and drop significantly in people with hypertension. Studies have shown that this decrease in blood pressure persists with regular meditation. Meditation is only one way to elicit the relaxation response. Other methods include deep breathing exercises, yoga, tai chi and repetitive prayer. What's crucial is that the method enables a person to interrupt everyday thoughts by focusing on a word, phrase, prayer or repetitive muscular activity. The report recommends practicing relaxation techniques once or twice a day, for a total of 10 to 20 minutes daily. Evidence suggests the more often a person practices these techniques, the better the outcome. "Stress Management: Techniques for Preventing and Easing Stress" is a 40- page report edited by Herbert Benson, M.D., founder of the Mind/Body Medical Institute Associate and Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School. Harvard Health Publications http://www.health.harvard.edu/SC Of course relaxation reduces stress. Did we need a Harvard study to tell us that? Fyi stress and depression are not the same thing. kj > Of course relaxation reduces stress. Did we need a Harvard study to tell > us that? > > Fyi stress and depression are not the same thing. > > kj Either you didn't read it or you're being deliberately obtuse, so I'll post it again, with some snippage, to make it clearer for you. What I was responding to, btw and what you obviously misunderstood or forgot, is this: >> "There is substantial, scientific evidence that meditation can control, >> if >> not "cure" depression." > No there isn't. > kj Anyway, here's the guts of my reply to that: <snip> ... explains that stress has been linked with <snip> emotional problems like ***depression,*** anxiety and an inability to enjoy life. The relaxation response, the opposite of the stress response, is a state of profound rest and release. A number of physiological changes occur during the relaxation response. When a person meditates, for example, heartbeat and respiration slow down. The body uses less oxygen and produces less carbon dioxide. Blood lactate levels, which some researchers believe are linked with anxiety attacks, decline markedly. Blood pressure tends to stabilize in healthy individuals and drop significantly in people with hypertension. Studies have shown that this decrease in blood pressure persists with regular meditation. Meditation is only one way to elicit the relaxation response. Other methods include deep breathing exercises, yoga, tai chi and repetitive prayer. Stress has been *linked* to many things. No doubt about that. Find a significant link between stress and banana prices in Ecuador. Or rates of global warming. Spidey, once again, my point is that stress and depression are not the same medical phenomenon. It is quite possible to be physiologically relaxed and still be dangerously depressed. Ask your psychiatrist. Chronic stress is bad juju. But it doesn't equal chronic depression. Diagnoses and treatments are quite different. I am glad meditation can reduce stress by inducing relaxation responses. Honest! And it is mildly interesting to read that stress has been linked to depression. But there is nothing in the Harvard summary that supports the your statement that "there is substantial scientific evidence that meditation can control or even "cure" depression." The Harvard review might be and interesting read, but if the summary is correct, it is a 40 page review of excersizes that prevent and ease stress. Meditation being one of those. Perhaps it would be useful for you to modernize your view of the how the medical and scientific communities understand depression. kj Re: Depression debate by "Waterspider" <waterspider@moonlight.net> Feb 16, 2007 at 11:43 PM > Of course relaxation reduces stress. Did we need a Harvard study to tell > us that? > > Fyi stress and depression are not the same thing. > > kj Either you didn't read it or you're being deliberately obtuse, so I'll post it again, with some snippage, to make it clearer for you. What I was responding to, btw and what you obviously misunderstood or forgot, is this: >> "There is substantial, scientific evidence that meditation can control, >> if >> not "cure" depression." > No there isn't. > kj Anyway, here's the guts of my reply to that: <snip> ... explains that stress has been linked with <snip> emotional problems like ***depression,*** anxiety and an inability to enjoy life. The relaxation response, the opposite of the stress response, is a state of profound rest and release. A number of physiological changes occur during the relaxation response. When a person meditates, for example, heartbeat and respiration slow down. The body uses less oxygen and produces less carbon dioxide. Blood lactate levels, which some researchers believe are linked with anxiety attacks, decline markedly. Blood pressure tends to stabilize in healthy individuals and drop significantly in people with hypertension. Studies have shown that this decrease in blood pressure persists with regular meditation. Meditation is only one way to elicit the relaxation response. Other methods include deep breathing exercises, yoga, tai chi and repetitive prayer. Glad you see you being active in the group, KJ. I've been wimping out and keeping a low profile, snuggled under my favorite afghan and just shaking my head about how folks never change. You 'do' know by now that WS is THE authoritative expert on EVERYTHING that is ever discussed in this group. So, as much as I hate to believe you could could possibly be wrong in YOUR research, well... you must be because WS disagrees with you! I do agree with those who ask that folks not feed the trolls, but it's not easy for ANY of us to just sit back and ignore the deliberate attempts by certain folks to start the flames going again. As always, Cody's statement WAS inflammatory, degrading, and smug. And as always, WS finds a way to twist everyone else's words to suit her agenda. It's old, it's exhausting, and I feel that it defeats the purpose of us trying to share our own experiences here to help newbies, since we invariably get attacked or "corrected" for our efforts. I would again like to invite those of you who are looking for a gentler place to discuss hep-c issues to join us over at hepatitis-c-friends@googlegroups.com -- we are still small and not very active, but I think I can promise you that if you join and send a post there, you will get positive and helpful responses. The group IS moderated by me, and I simply do not let the trolling go on. OK, now I'm gonna be late for bridge. sigh later Sara ready for Spring to get here > Stress has been *linked* to many things. No doubt about that. > Find a [quoted text clipped - 100 lines] > include deep breathing exercises, yoga, tai chi and repetitive > prayer. Hello Sara. Thank you for your thoughtful words. You are right it - it is pointless to attempt to rationalize with a pair of antagonistic fruitcakes who get their jollies from patronizing each other and inventing information to suit their arguments. A peculiar pair of fossils eh. So how you doing chicky? Two weeks of tx left and still carrying your household? You go girl! Hugs, Kathy three weeks, but who's counting? :) shot # 46 tomorrow night S > Hello Sara. Thank you for your thoughtful words. You are > right it - it is [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Hugs, > Kathy > I would again like to invite those of you who are looking for a > gentler place to discuss hep-c issues to join us over at [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > responses. The group IS moderated by me, and I simply do not let > the trolling go on. LOL! Not one post since Nov. 30. I guess people aren't too interested in your censored board. That said, if you and others keep dissing me over there, I will request that Google bring your lame group down. You can start deleting the posts that put me down on your group right now. Cody I think the difference here is in the word "depression". Since it covers such a huge range it makes sense that two people talking about it are going to be using two different definitions. Stress-reduction exercises are good. They can help people with mild depression by stabilizing and lifting mood. Not a panacea but definately a lifestyle option that is in the might help/can't hurt mode. But for fast-onset or long-term hardcore clinical depression? I don't think that there's any substantial evidence that meditation is an appropriate therapy. > > "There is substantial, scientific evidence that meditation can control, if > > not "cure" depression." [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Harvard Health Publications > http://www.health.harvard.edu/SC >I think the difference here is in the word "depression". > > Since it covers such a huge range it makes sense that two people talking > about it are going to be using two different definitions. I think the definition is clear, it's the cause and treatment that are the mysteries. > Stress-reduction exercises are good. They can help people with mild > depression by stabilizing and lifting mood. Not a panacea but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > think that there's any substantial evidence that meditation is an > appropriate therapy. Nor is there a whole lot to support the use of any particular drug therapy. Treatment is hit-or-miss at best, and I think it will continue like this until we learn much more about the disease, i.e. what exactly causes the chemical imbalance that causes the depression. Oh well, it's getting better. We don't often do electric shock any more. I hope. WSpider, From what I've seen of people in clinically depressed, psychotic or hypermanic states, and treatments used, there is very little of the patient's day-to-day personality left to communicate with, that would allow meditation therapists to draw the patient's attention to voluntary, focussed activity like meditation. Personally, I find different forms of meditation are handy in situtations where I am nearing not being able to 'handle' input whether it be physical like hustle-bustle and noise, or emotional, like arguments and let-downs. I use the beat of a song, white noise, visioning and what could be called self-relaxation techniques, I suppose. They don't always work. But you do have the right to try and manage these stressors, and you don't have to rub someone the wrong way in doing so, you just take time out for yourself. It is a sublime way of allowing the mind to manage stress effects on the body and relieves the body's natural ability to cope. Pressure is the harbinger of systems failure in the human body, one might say. Physically through inflammation which inevitably takes the natural course, or stress pressure which debilitates the patient from being able to participate fully and consciously in their worlds. Before being able to meditate though, one must be able to control the effects of one's adrenaline, and coax or encourage inner calm. And yes, just as frequently, my initial response to something expressly stressing takes me beyond the point where quiet meditation might have mitigated the clash. The use of heavy drugs to modify our behaviour to dull-witted states also acts as a salve to overworked brains, which do have the absolute power to forget. Forgetfulness is the tool used by ECT zappers, as the tactical juice makes the frontal lobes go to Reset while interrupting the connections between the lobes and the cortex. So the frontal lobe 'forgets' the connection to the deeper associations or 'memories' in the cortex. (this is a very subjective interpretation). From what I understand, males and females have different response triggers, men being more stimulated by tactile and visual cues, while women respond more frequently to emotional logic and 'intuitive' guides or pathways. So good luck catching a bus in a blizzard, if you know what I mean. I think the meditation bus blew by this spot at the psych outpatient clinic quite a while back. So we're just in time for the Thorazine and Plasticine, instead. heh heh heh! (no disrespect meant, the mind is an amazing thing) :) Those that discount the beneficial effects of psych medicine, be warned. You do not know what you're talking about. Regardless of how much of a blunderbuss some of them seem to be, treatments for clinical depression and hyper mania or bi-polar disorder are needed. Meditation is nice. cactus jammies ============= >>I think the difference here is in the word "depression". >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Oh well, it's getting better. We don't often do electric shock any more. I > hope. I've been using my own form of mediatation for years now with great success. It combines several elements of Asian teachings, including yoga, Indian religion, and chanting. I usually do it in the morning after I've had a good BM. You want to make sure that you've evacuated your bowels before you do it, it's THAT relaxing. It involves deep breathing exercises while sitting in the Lotus position, exhaling thru your a.shole and chanting all the while. It's extremely exhilirating, while at the same time, provides me an inner peace like you wouldn't believe. elmo ahhhhhhhhhhhhh ///////////// WSpider, From what I've seen of people in clinically depressed, psychotic or hypermanic states, and treatments used, there is very little of the patient's day-to-day personality left to communicate with, that would allow meditation therapists to draw the patient's attention to voluntary, focussed activity like meditation. Personally, I find different forms of meditation are handy in situtations where I am nearing not being able to 'handle' input whether it be physical like hustle-bustle and noise, or emotional, like arguments and let-downs. I use the beat of a song, white noise, visioning and what could be called self-relaxation techniques, I suppose. They don't always work. But you do have the right to try and manage these stressors, and you don't have to rub someone the wrong way in doing so, you just take time out for yourself. It is a sublime way of allowing the mind to manage stress effects on the body and relieves the body's natural ability to cope. Pressure is the harbinger of systems failure in the human body, one might say. Physically through inflammation which inevitably takes the natural course, or stress pressure which debilitates the patient from being able to participate fully and consciously in their worlds. Before being able to meditate though, one must be able to control the effects of one's adrenaline, and coax or encourage inner calm. And yes, just as frequently, my initial response to something expressly stressing takes me beyond the point where quiet meditation might have mitigated the clash. The use of heavy drugs to modify our behaviour to dull-witted states also acts as a salve to overworked brains, which do have the absolute power to forget. Forgetfulness is the tool used by ECT zappers, as the tactical juice makes the frontal lobes go to Reset while interrupting the connections between the lobes and the cortex. So the frontal lobe 'forgets' the connection to the deeper associations or 'memories' in the cortex. (this is a very subjective interpretation). From what I understand, males and females have different response triggers, men being more stimulated by tactile and visual cues, while women respond more frequently to emotional logic and 'intuitive' guides or pathways. So good luck catching a bus in a blizzard, if you know what I mean. I think the meditation bus blew by this spot at the psych outpatient clinic quite a while back. So we're just in time for the Thorazine and Plasticine, instead. heh heh heh! (no disrespect meant, the mind is an amazing thing) :) Those that discount the beneficial effects of psych medicine, be warned. You do not know what you're talking about. Regardless of how much of a blunderbuss some of them seem to be, treatments for clinical depression and hyper mania or bi-polar disorder are needed. Meditation is nice. cactus jammies ============= "Waterspider" <waterspider@moonlight.net> wrote in message news:12tdctccsnikb59@corp.supernews.com... "Gordo Mondragon" <ga_mondragon@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:ga_mondragon-F8A7A5.23014116022007@news-server.nj.rr.com... I think the difference here is in the word "depression". Since it covers such a huge range it makes sense that two people talking about it are going to be using two different definitions. I think the definition is clear, it's the cause and treatment that are the mysteries. Stress-reduction exercises are good. They can help people with mild depression by stabilizing and lifting mood. Not a panacea but definately a lifestyle option that is in the might help/can't hurt mode. But for fast-onset or long-term hardcore clinical depression? I don't think that there's any substantial evidence that meditation is an appropriate therapy. Nor is there a whole lot to support the use of any particular drug therapy. Treatment is hit-or-miss at best, and I think it will continue like this until we learn much more about the disease, i.e. what exactly causes the chemical imbalance that causes the depression. Oh well, it's getting better. We don't often do electric shock any more. I hope. http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum Ahh, the Thrum of the Eighth Chakra! the Bleating Bagpipe of the Gods. I knew you always gave a sh.t but I didn't really know why. hmmmm cactus jammies ---- two knee joints too many for Japanese food today. I've been using my own form of mediatation for years now with great success. It combines several elements of Asian teachings, including yoga, Indian religion, and chanting. I usually do it in the morning after I've had a good BM. You want to make sure that you've evacuated your bowels before you do it, it's THAT relaxing. It involves deep breathing exercises while sitting in the Lotus position, exhaling thru your a.shole and chanting all the while. It's extremely exhilirating, while at the same time, provides me an inner peace like you wouldn't believe. elmo ahhhhhhhhhhhhh ///////////// WSpider, From what I've seen of people in clinically depressed, psychotic or hypermanic states, and treatments used, there is very little of the patient's day-to-day personality left to communicate with, that would allow meditation therapists to draw the patient's attention to voluntary, focussed activity like meditation. Personally, I find different forms of meditation are handy in situtations where I am nearing not being able to 'handle' input whether it be physical like hustle-bustle and noise, or emotional, like arguments and let-downs. I use the beat of a song, white noise, visioning and what could be called self-relaxation techniques, I suppose. They don't always work. But you do have the right to try and manage these stressors, and you don't have to rub someone the wrong way in doing so, you just take time out for yourself. It is a sublime way of allowing the mind to manage stress effects on the body and relieves the body's natural ability to cope. Pressure is the harbinger of systems failure in the human body, one might say. Physically through inflammation which inevitably takes the natural course, or stress pressure which debilitates the patient from being able to participate fully and consciously in their worlds. Before being able to meditate though, one must be able to control the effects of one's adrenaline, and coax or encourage inner calm. And yes, just as frequently, my initial response to something expressly stressing takes me beyond the point where quiet meditation might have mitigated the clash. The use of heavy drugs to modify our behaviour to dull-witted states also acts as a salve to overworked brains, which do have the absolute power to forget. Forgetfulness is the tool used by ECT zappers, as the tactical juice makes the frontal lobes go to Reset while interrupting the connections between the lobes and the cortex. So the frontal lobe 'forgets' the connection to the deeper associations or 'memories' in the cortex. (this is a very subjective interpretation). From what I understand, males and females have different response triggers, men being more stimulated by tactile and visual cues, while women respond more frequently to emotional logic and 'intuitive' guides or pathways. So good luck catching a bus in a blizzard, if you know what I mean. I think the meditation bus blew by this spot at the psych outpatient clinic quite a while back. So we're just in time for the Thorazine and Plasticine, instead. heh heh heh! (no disrespect meant, the mind is an amazing thing) :) Those that discount the beneficial effects of psych medicine, be warned. You do not know what you're talking about. Regardless of how much of a blunderbuss some of them seem to be, treatments for clinical depression and hyper mania or bi-polar disorder are needed. Meditation is nice. cactus jammies ============= I think the difference here is in the word "depression". Since it covers such a huge range it makes sense that two people talking about it are going to be using two different definitions. I think the definition is clear, it's the cause and treatment that are the mysteries. Stress-reduction exercises are good. They can help people with mild depression by stabilizing and lifting mood. Not a panacea but definately a lifestyle option that is in the might help/can't hurt mode. But for fast-onset or long-term hardcore clinical depression? I don't think that there's any substantial evidence that meditation is an appropriate therapy. Nor is there a whole lot to support the use of any particular drug therapy. Treatment is hit-or-miss at best, and I think it will continue like this until we learn much more about the disease, i.e. what exactly causes the chemical imbalance that causes the depression. Oh well, it's getting better. We don't often do electric shock any more. I hope. http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum To achieve total enlightenment, you must follow the teachings of the Dahli Roompah. An interesting fact i learned the other day about why Indian women have red dots on their foreheads. It's sort of like a dowery sort of thing that when the gal gets married, the groom scratches off the red dot and under it is a prize...like an American convenience store, motel, or gas station or something. If there's nothing under the dot, the groom is doomed to stay in India and work as a telephone customer service rep the rest of his life. elmo back to my meditations now ///////////// Ahh, the Thrum of the Eighth Chakra! the Bleating Bagpipe of the Gods. I knew you always gave a sh.t but I didn't really know why. hmmmm cactus jammies ---- two knee joints too many for Japanese food today. <elmoemerson@webtv.net> wrote in message news:6663-45D72D3B-86@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net... I've been using my own form of mediatation for years now with great success. It combines several elements of Asian teachings, including yoga, Indian religion, and chanting. I usually do it in the morning after I've had a good BM. You want to make sure that you've evacuated your bowels before you do it, it's THAT relaxing. It involves deep breathing exercises while sitting in the Lotus position, exhaling thru your a.shole and chanting all the while. It's extremely exhilirating, while at the same time, provides me an inner peace like you wouldn't believe. elmo ahhhhhhhhhhhhh ///////////// WSpider, From what I've seen of people in clinically depressed, psychotic or hypermanic states, and treatments used, there is very little of the patient's day-to-day personality left to communicate with, that would allow meditation therapists to draw the patient's attention to voluntary, focussed activity like meditation. Personally, I find different forms of meditation are handy in situtations where I am nearing not being able to 'handle' input whether it be physical like hustle-bustle and noise, or emotional, like arguments and let-downs. I use the beat of a song, white noise, visioning and what could be called self-relaxation techniques, I suppose. They don't always work. But you do have the right to try and manage these stressors, and you don't have to rub someone the wrong way in doing so, you just take time out for yourself. It is a sublime way of allowing the mind to manage stress effects on the body and relieves the body's natural ability to cope. Pressure is the harbinger of systems failure in the human body, one might say. Physically through inflammation which inevitably takes the natural course, or stress pressure which debilitates the patient from being able to participate fully and consciously in their worlds. Before being able to meditate though, one must be able to control the effects of one's adrenaline, and coax or encourage inner calm. And yes, just as frequently, my initial response to something expressly stressing takes me beyond the point where quiet meditation might have mitigated the clash. The use of heavy drugs to modify our behaviour to dull-witted states also acts as a salve to overworked brains, which do have the absolute power to forget. Forgetfulness is the tool used by ECT zappers, as the tactical juice makes the frontal lobes go to Reset while interrupting the connections between the lobes and the cortex. So the frontal lobe 'forgets' the connection to the deeper associations or 'memories' in the cortex. (this is a very subjective interpretation). From what I understand, males and females have different response triggers, men being more stimulated by tactile and visual cues, while women respond more frequently to emotional logic and 'intuitive' guides or pathways. So good luck catching a bus in a blizzard, if you know what I mean. I think the meditation bus blew by this spot at the psych outpatient clinic quite a while back. So we're just in time for the Thorazine and Plasticine, instead. heh heh heh! (no disrespect meant, the mind is an amazing thing) :) Those that discount the beneficial effects of psych medicine, be warned. You do not know what you're talking about. Regardless of how much of a blunderbuss some of them seem to be, treatments for clinical depression and hyper mania or bi-polar disorder are needed. Meditation is nice. cactus jammies ============= "Waterspider" <waterspider@moonlight.net> wrote in message news:12tdctccsnikb59@corp.supernews.com... "Gordo Mondragon" <ga_mondragon@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:ga_mondragon-F8A7A5.23014116022007@news-server.nj.rr.com... I think the difference here is in the word "depression". Since it covers such a huge range it makes sense that two people talking about it are going to be using two different definitions. I think the definition is clear, it's the cause and treatment that are the mysteries. Stress-reduction exercises are good. They can help people with mild depression by stabilizing and lifting mood. Not a panacea but definately a lifestyle option that is in the might help/can't hurt mode. But for fast-onset or long-term hardcore clinical depression? I don't think that there's any substantial evidence that meditation is an appropriate therapy. Nor is there a whole lot to support the use of any particular drug therapy. Treatment is hit-or-miss at best, and I think it will continue like this until we learn much more about the disease, i.e. what exactly causes the chemical imbalance that causes the depression. Oh well, it's getting better. We don't often do electric shock any more. I hope. http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum > Personally, I find different forms of meditation are handy.. I have my own form of meditation. I just think about the source of the stress, - Analyze the cause in detail. - Attempt to apply problem-solvng to it. - If that doesn't work, realize that if there is no logical or clear response the stress, then it's not a problem - it's a fact of life - and there's no pressure on me to do anything about it because I can't anyway. - Devout Rationalist Hi Russian Good point there! Im up sh.t creek whith a lot of bad things happening and your words give me some hope. Thanx /H /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > > Personally, I find different forms of meditation are handy.. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > - Devout Rationalist Re: Depression debate Group: alt.support.hepatitis-c Date: Fri, Feb 16, 2007, 2:58pm (CST+1) From: kjohyayhoo@nospamyahoo.com (kjoh) "There is substantial, scientific evidence that meditation can control, if not "cure" depression." No there isn't. kj ////////// Depression is merely a 'state of mind', Koko. Really, all you have to do to chase depression away is be happy. Don't worry....be happy. Put a smily face on and get yourself a Tom Cruise poster. elmo happy as a clam, or an otter, or a bee (tee hee) http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum This is something else. A simple discussion about depression has gone into directions of the unknown. Did I read it right Cody is turning the group in. Seems a little extreme Cody. I'm just returning. Always so much friction and depression going on here this is a tuff group and only the strong stay hear..and a small new group will not have the experience of the ol timers helping you get through and stay on your tx. I'm not sure who is on tx and who is not yet. But the same ol same ols not much had changed. But is still the best knowledgable place to be if on tx. Is their any thing positive in any bodes life worth mentioning? All this bickering is so pointless and leads to no where. It again seems like the ones that are not on tx act like they are. I find the below paragraph rude, crude for all the poor mentally ill people in the news group to be treated in such a inhumane manner. Shame on you Elmo you should be horse whooped. Depression is not merely a 'state of mind'. It can be physical that causes the depression and the depression is a secondary illness plus a side effect from the real illness which is not diagnosed. I have a dozen Endocrinologists I been through to know that none of them ever tested me for Norepinephrine or aldosterone or DHEA or testosterone or dopamine. I am over range in all of these and it didn't happen over nite. I was chasing ghosts with 4 of them in the last 2 years. I do much better on my own figuring out what was wrong with me. This is so rare most Dr.s never see someone like me in their whole 40 years of practice and a good busy surgeon will only remove a adrenal gland once or twice a year if he is lucky. More less if I am lucky I got to find him this year. Though with so many hormones and a adrenal tumor you would think 1 of them would have found it before me. I hate Endos now, their field so, so narrow they feel they don't have to do any work at all. Any way carry on. he he he Juanita. (Below Para) Depression is merely a 'state of mind', Koko. Really, all you have to do to chase depression away is be happy. Don't worry....be happy. Put a smily face on and get yourself a Tom Cruise poster. elmo happy as a clam, or an otter, or a bee (tee hee) >This is something else. A simple discussion about depression has gone >into directions of the unknown. Did I read it right Cody is turning the [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >smily face on and get yourself a Tom Cruise poster. elmo >happy as a clam, or an otter, or a bee (tee hee) I believe you've taken elmo's comment completely out of the context in which it was given. Had you thoroughly followed the thread I believe you'd agree this was a tweak aimed at a simplistic notion offered earlier... Cheers /greyhackles Got yaw! I was only kidding Grey but not about the mentally ill in here. I know Elmo will not take this serious. LOL Juanita I believe you've taken elmo's comment completely out of the context in which it was given. Had you thoroughly followed the thread I believe you'd agree this was a tweak aimed at a simplistic notion offered earlier... Cheers /greyhackles It's one of my favourite themes!!! What is depression??? what a hoot! he he he Meling of the Thousand Goiters bites the big aorta! heh heh heh small swampers cj remembers the daze madd > Got yaw! I was only kidding Grey but not about the mentally ill in here. > I know Elmo will not take this serious. LOL [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Cheers > /greyhackles Hi Juanita welcome back sweetie. Don't worry Elmo was joking. He knows I like Johnny Depp. kj koko Only kidding Kathy. LOL Juanita Re: Depression debate Group: alt.support.hepatitis-c Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2007, 7:50pm (CST+1) From: kjohyayhoo@nospamyahoo.com (kjoh) Hi Juanita welcome back sweetie. Don't worry Elmo was joking. He knows I like Johnny Depp. kj koko ////////////// Anyone who believes their diagnosis of being mentally ill is for real ought to have their head examined. elmo http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum This might be of interest. The entire abstract is posted below. To make it clear, I am not opposed to meditation. It can bring the pactitioner some peace of mind. If only for a short time. Unfortunately, meditation is about as useful in treating clinical depression as it is in treating schizophrenia or psychosis. Not very. kj Systematic review of the efficacy of meditation techniques as treatments for medical illness J Altern Complement Med. 2006 Oct;12(8):709-13. Conclusion "...Clear and reproducible evidence supporting efficacy from large, methodologically sound studies is lacking". http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra ctPlus&list_uids=17034289&query_hl=10&itool=pubmed_docsum BACKGROUND: Meditative techniques are sought frequently by patients coping with medical and psychological problems. Because of their increasingly widespread appeal and use, and the potential for use as medical therapies, a concise and thorough review of the current state of scientific knowledge of these practices as medical interventions was conducted. PURPOSE: To systematically review the evidence supporting efficacy and safety of meditative practices in treating illnesses, and examine areas warranting further study. Studies on normal healthy populations are not included. METHODS: Searches were performed using PubMed, PsycInfo, and the Cochrane Database. Keywords were Meditation, Meditative Prayer, Yoga, Relaxation Response. Qualifying studies were reviewed and independently rated based on quality by two reviewers. Mid-to-high-quality studies (those scoring above 0.65 or 65% on a validated research quality scale) were included. RESULTS: From a total of 82 identified studies, 20 randomized controlled trials met our criteria. The studies included 958 subjects total (397 experimentally treated, 561 controls). No serious adverse events were reported in any of the included or excluded clinical trials. Serious adverse events are reported in the medical literature, though rare. The strongest evidence for efficacy was found for epilepsy, symptoms of the premenstrual syndrome and menopausal symptoms. Benefit was also demonstrated for mood and anxiety disorders, autoimmune illness, and emotional disturbance in neoplastic disease. CONCLUSIONS: The results support the safety and potential efficacy of meditative practices for treating certain illnesses, particularly in nonpsychotic mood and anxiety disorders. Clear and reproducible evidence supporting efficacy from large, methodologically sound studies is lacking. > This might be of interest. The entire abstract is posted below. To make > it clear, I am not opposed to meditation. It can bring the pactitioner [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > kj Actually meditation was the practice back over 1000 years. It has no power in this Age of Defilement, aka Mappo. A much more pro active approach is called for which, when used by two schizophrenics that I used to know, CURED them. Snip meditation appraisal drivel. Cody Cured schizophrenia with meditation!? Thats quite a testimonial. I know two people with Hepatitis C who cured it with meditation. Do you still smoke hash? kj > Cured schizophrenia with meditation!? Not what I wrote. Cody Depression is caused by so many different things. anti-ds could be nothing more than a band-aide fix, and we all know band-aid's fall off in the end. I do believe finding the root of depression is well worth looking into. Drs. could care less. Pills are easier. Finding the cause would be much more useful to patients than putting everyone on so many of the same pills for big drug companies $$$. The depression I have had is clearly associated with high levels of norepinephrine and aldosterone. These hormones clearly make people feel hopeless and doomed. Thats how I knew my problem had to be a chemical imbalance as feeling so doomed I felt like just jumping in front of a 18 wheeler. Not at all normal. Though I just have ignored feeling like this and never told dr.s about it. As they would have just prescribed a drug that targets norepinephrine like cymbalta and make me violently ill and want to send me to a shrink. Though shrinks are known to find more chemical imbalances than other drs but I tried them and they were no help. The drugs I am on are far from anti-ds. Were looking at alpha blockers, Ace inhibitors, aldosterone and testosterone receptor blockers. This is a long road away from anti-ds. But in my case it is the right thing to do.. Juanita http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QLXTsviMxk > > This might be of interest. The entire abstract is posted below. To make > > it clear, I am not opposed to meditation. It can bring the pactitioner [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Cody Re: Depression debate Group: alt.support.hepatitis-c Date: Fri, Feb 16, 2007, 9:59pm (CST+7) From: not@aol.org (Cody) kjoh wrote: This might be of interest. The entire abstract is posted below. To make it clear, I am not opposed to meditation. It can bring the pactitioner some peace of mind. If only for a short time. Unfortunately, meditation is about as useful in treating clinical depression as it is in treating schizophrenia or psychosis. Not very. kj Actually meditation was the practice back over 1000 years. It has no power in this Age of Defilement, aka Mappo. A much more pro active approach is called for which, when used by two schizophrenics that I used to know, CURED them. Snip meditation appraisal drivel. Cody /////////// Mappo ended last year, didn't you know, Cody? We're now in the Age of Delusion, aka Zeppo. Obviously, since you think meditation cured your schizo friends. elmo http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum > > Re: Depression debate [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > schizo friends. > elmo Got a reading comprehension problem? I never wrote or think that meditation cures *anything*. Cody |
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