Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / November 2006
4/48
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Russian - 12 Nov 2006 05:23 GMT Shot 4 of 48 on Friday. Tried doing it on Friday morning, thinking it might give me more weekend uptime. I was fine during the day Friday.
But the result was a woozy Friday night, a crummy Saturday (not horrible, just crummy), and stay-at-home Saturday night anyway.
It's interesting how the day or two after the Peg, I can feel almost okay and bored at home, but feel much worse if I go out. Work is no problem so far during the week since I'm not loading trucks or playing major league baseball.
The sides aren't too bad as of any single moment, but it gets irritating after awhile to be down, feverish, and achey and getting bored hanging around.
The first weekend, watching old movies, catching up on reading etc. was almost welcome, but I'm getting *very* caught up on reading and old movies! <smile>
I'm also losing about 3/4 pound or so a week, but I can afford it <g>. The very slight semi-nausea I think is from the Riba... seems to come about 3 hours after each dose. Not horrible but a little food goes a long way.
For some bizarre reason, I'm getting the most intense itching on my elbows! I mean the very ends where the skin is toughest.
I want to say thanks to prior google-able advice from this forum on itching - I've had a bit of it, and the recommendation to use cold tap water on the itch works wonders for at least a few hours. I'm trying that oatmeal lotion - see how that works - Vaseline intensive care actually burns sometimes.
elmoemerson@webtv.net - 12 Nov 2006 14:56 GMT Don't scratch! :-) elmo
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Russian - 12 Nov 2006 17:45 GMT > Don't scratch! :-) > elmo I don't (mostly <g>).
I had to take 1/4 of a percoset last night to damp the itching enough to go to sleep. I really didn't feel any "buzz" (which is an annoyance at this point in life anyway) off that amount of percoset, but it did the trick on the itching.
Burke Gilman - 12 Nov 2006 21:08 GMT > > Don't scratch! :-) > > elmo [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > this point in life anyway) off that amount of percoset, but it did the > trick on the itching. For itching, I used the following:
*Coal tar shampoo (marketed for tx of dandruff). *Full strength OTC hydrocortisone cream *Regular skin lotion *Benadryl
I don't know that it did any good, but until it ran out I used coal tar shampoo that I found in the shower and sometimes I took Benadryl. Bouts of itching were worst during the early weeks when I broke out in hives once. Never developed psoriasis or anything like that, so I guess I had it easy.
All in all, when itching got bothersome I'd dose Benadryl, take a shower with or without the coal tar stuff, and follow that with lotions, sometimes the OTC hydrocortisone on my elbows and shins and back.
For the HCV patient suffering the sides of interferron and ribavirin, I think Benadryl can be a good OTC adjunct med because its indicated by skin itching and is also administered as a sleep aid and anti-nausea agent.
Benadryl: http://www.dermadoctor.com/pages/BrandDetail45.asp
Russian - 13 Nov 2006 02:01 GMT > For itching, I used the following: > > *Coal tar shampoo (marketed for tx of dandruff). > *Full strength OTC hydrocortisone cream > *Regular skin lotion > *Benadryl I haven't tried benadryl yet - thanks for the reminder.
Funny how we develop these "rituals" - multiple treatments for a single problem. We do a bunch of things at some point in desperation, and then it works, so we keep doing all of the things.
Can't blame us for not doing the scientific experiment of leaving out one item or another and seeing how it goes - when something is really bothering you, you just do the ritual.
For me (and I'm new at this), so far it's this:
- When I take a shower, I don't stand in the water anymore - I point the showerhead down and just use the water to get wet and wash off soap. I use lukewarm water, and then at the end do a quick spray with hot (not really hot, just normal) water to dissolve all the soap and open the pores.
- Get out of the shower, turn off the cold, so the room fills with steam. Pat down with towel a little, no rubbing.
- Turn off steam after a couple of minutes, open window and door, let cold air blow through.
- Use powder on the itchy & red places. Only use lotion where there are actual rough dry spots, not merely red.
- Chill for a few minutes on the bed before getting dressed.
- Wear an undershirt under my shirt to greatly lessen friction during the day.
This morning treatment gets me through the day. Now, if that benadryl concept (or something) can get me through the night), I'd be set.
Cactus Jammies - 13 Nov 2006 02:55 GMT Hey Russian Something that helps cut down on abrasion to your sensitive neck and face areas when you sleep is to use a well-washed satin pillow cover. You'll find that that it is soft and relatively lacking friction. At the end of my tx, I could not wear anything with any synthetic in it or my skin would start to chafe badly. That meant labels and seams in shirts, too. I was down to 100% cotton tank tops and cotton training pants, very loose.
cactus jammies
>> For itching, I used the following: >> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > This morning treatment gets me through the day. Now, if that benadryl > concept (or something) can get me through the night), I'd be set. Russian - 14 Nov 2006 07:20 GMT > I was down to 100% cotton tank tops and cotton training pants, very > loose. I'm a cotton-man by nature. Linen and wool are numbers 2 & 3. Anything ending with "-on", or "-ex" is right out.
Al - 16 Nov 2006 00:11 GMT I wouldn't use OTC hydrocortisone cream or any other corticosteroids (unless it is on a very small portion of you skin) because they suppress the immune system
"corticosteroid - a steroid hormone produced by the adrenal cortex or synthesized; administered as drugs they reduce swelling and decrease the body's immune response;..." Ref.: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/corticosteroids
"...corticosteroids, ...relieve inflammation as well as suppress the immune system. Corticosteroids given for a long time have many side effects (see Corticosteroids: Uses and Side Effects). When possible, corticosteroids are used for a short time-when the disorder begins or when symptoms worsen...." Ref.: http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec16/ch186/ch186a.html
>> > Don't scratch! :-) >> > elmo [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Benadryl: > http://www.dermadoctor.com/pages/BrandDetail45.asp Thomas Wagner - 16 Nov 2006 02:09 GMT >I wouldn't use OTC hydrocortisone cream or any other corticosteroids (unless >it is on a very small portion of you skin) because they suppress the immune >system That's true for steroids you take orally. To get an immunosuppressant effect with OTC hydrocortisone creams you'd have to slather your whole body in it for days on end, and probably not even then. The dosage absorbed through the skin that could have any other than a local effect is generally minuscule. In some (rare) cases the immunosuppressant effect of corticosteroids may even be beneficial during tx, for example in cases of autoimmune reactions.
OTC or prescription strength hydrocortisone cream may not be ideal for other reasons, long term use may damage the skin, but it often is a vital component in fighting TX side effects. Don't panic just because you've read something that doesn't even apply to this form of HC.
Thomas
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Al - 16 Nov 2006 21:34 GMT > That's true for steroids you take orally. To get an immunosuppressant > effect with OTC hydrocortisone creams you'd have to slather your whole > body in it for days on end, and probably not even then. The dosage > absorbed through the skin that could have any other than a local effect > is generally minuscule. Any reference for such a bold claim, please?
My philosophy in this case is: "In doubt, through it out" The effect of topical corticosteroids happens BECAUSE they penetrate the skin. The concept that the immune effect will be "generally minuscule" is a very relative one, and it depends on the individual susceptibility. As always, one must make sure the benefits outweigh the potential risks. Fortunately there are safer alternatives already mentioned on previous posts.
Thomas Wagner - 17 Nov 2006 06:04 GMT >Any reference for such a bold claim, please? Any reference for your claim that topical hydrocortisone has an effect on the immune system? All you've cited were references to orally administered corticosteroids. Here's one reference I used:
http://dermnetnz.org/treatments/topical-steroids.html
To cite: "If more than 50g of clobetasol propionate, or 500g of hydrocortisone is used per week, sufficient steroid may be absorbed through the skin to result in adrenal gland suppression and/or eventually Cushing's syndrome." Since maximum strength OTC hydrocortisone cream contains just 1% of HC, you would have to apply 50kg of the stuff per week for this kind of side effect. That's about 1,785 1oz tubes per week.
>My philosophy in this case is: "In doubt, through it out" >The effect of topical corticosteroids happens BECAUSE they penetrate the >skin. The concept that the immune effect will be "generally minuscule" is a >very relative one, and it depends on the individual susceptibility. They penetrate the upper layers of the skin, but the effects generally stay within the skin. The dosage absorbed into the skin also depends on the treated area, see the cited site for more info.
>As always, one must make sure the benefits outweigh the potential risks. >Fortunately there are safer alternatives already mentioned on previous >posts. And in many cases, those safer alternatives are insufficient and have to be supplemented with appropriate medication, including OTC and prescription strength corticosteroids. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with using topical steroids in appropriate doses for a limited time.
To cite the above site again: "The risk of these [skin] side effects [such as thinning] depends on the strength of the steroid, the length of application, the site treated, and the nature of the skin problem. If you use a potent steroid cream on your face as a moisturiser, you will develop the side effects within a few weeks. If you use 1% hydrocortisone cream on your hands for 25 years, you will have done no harm at all (except for having wasted a lot of money!)"
Thomas
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Al - 18 Nov 2006 05:36 GMT The references I provided are not restricted to orally administered corticosteroids.
The reference you provide is from an organization sponsored by sellers of hydrocortisone and other "skincare products"...
Even if it were true that one needs those large amounts of hydrocortisone to achieve Adrenal Gland SUPPRESSION, and Cushing's Syndrome, I'm not talking about reaching that level of toxicity. My concern is that the treatment of HCV infection is of limited efficacy as it is. Anything that may hamper the full efficacy of the treatment should be avoided, and anything one can do to optimize the benefit of the treatment should be adopted if tolerable. I agree with you that "in many cases, ... safer alternatives are insufficient and have to be supplemented with appropriate medication, including OTC and prescription strength corticosteroids." Furthermore, some people have to stop treatment altogether due to side effects. But, as a general rule, I wouldn't use OTC hydrocortisone cream or any other corticosteroids (unless it is on a very small portion of the skin) because they suppress the immune system, even if it were a small effect, during treatment.
The following references supports my suspicions about using hydrocortisone during treatment :
West J Med. 1995 February; 162(2): 123-126. Adverse effects of topical corticosteroid use.
D A Fisher Department of Medicine, University of California, School of Medicine, San Francisco, USA.
Topical corticosteroid use, a common and often efficacious therapy for a wide variety of cutaneous conditions, may have substantial adverse effects. These range from the notable nondermatologic side effects of hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis suppression, Cushing's disease, femoral head osteonecrosis, and cataracts to a variety of less serious skin effects such as cutaneous tinea and contact dermatitis. The broad availability, efficacy, relative low cost, and ease of applying topical corticosteroids should not induce complacency or a cavalier attitude in prescribers. Physicians should have the same awareness of the possible side effects of topical steroid use as when prescribing parenteral medication. -------------------------------------------
Br J Dermatol. 1986 Oct;115(4):475-84. Effect of percutaneous absorption of hydrocortisone on adrenocortical responsiveness in infants with severe skin disease. Turpeinen M, Salo OP, Leisti S.
Percutaneous absorption of hydrocortisone was studied in 18 children (aged from 6 weeks to 14 1/2 years) with atopic or seborrhoeic dermatitis, by measuring their serum cortisol before and after application of 1% hydrocortisone cream. Endogenous secretion of cortisol was suppressed with dexamethasone. A 24 h absorption test was performed on nine children. In six, percutaneous absorption was detected. The highest serum cortisol level was reached within the first 6 h. A 4 h absorption test was developed on the basis of the 24 h test. This short absorption test was performed on nine children, and in eight of them absorption of hydrocortisone was detected. The rise of serum cortisol ranged from 98 to 2669 nmol/l. The 2 h ACTH test was performed to evaluate the effect of previous treatment with topical glucocorticoids. Suppressed adrenocortical function was found in five of 13 children, and was associated significantly with high post-application serum cortisol levels. This occurred more often in infants with a severe skin disorder than in older children or in those with mild or moderate skin disease. -------------------------------------------
Useful references that highlight some concerns in this context: http://health.yahoo.com/drug/d03205a1 http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1417221&blobtype=pdf
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>>Any reference for such a bold claim, please? > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Thomas Cactus Jammies - 18 Nov 2006 13:42 GMT I was supplied some samples of a high potency steroidal cream to manage my psoriasis. I had previously used a less active prescribed steroidal cream for the same purpose. The Derm knew of the reason why I could expect an eruption during the tx. I was referred for consultation by my Liver specialist.
BTW, I was also told by my Liver clinic that 500 mg of tylenol for shot side effects for 3 days a week would not hurt my liver. I never used the cream much, as my psoriasis went down to nothing! According to the published, known side effects, the combo tx likely could have accelerated the spread and severity of the psoriasis.
So much for general notes on side effects and yay for me.
My skin was suffering from rashes and other nice stuff that I just tried to leave alone or manage infection risk with topical anti-bacteriological potions. If my psoriasis is any indication (it persists, but at a far lower surface area of my body, no huge deal, just on the elbows) and my Liver is supposed to have a lot to do with skin health, then perhaps my liver got a bit better too.
I relapsed according to the post-tx 6 month pcr. But I was clear from I would say, starting somewhere between weeks 24 and 34 and tested negative two weeks post tx. At that time, my LFTs were in the twenties. I had almost a 3 log drop at week 12. Current conventional treatment methods would have me start my 48 week actual suppression of the virii or whats left of them, right when I cleared which would have added anywhere from (I estimate), 24 to 34 weeks to the total. yi. anyway, numbers theory for the devotees of combination therapy as the only way to kick the teeth out of the Dragon.
cactus jammies.
> The references I provided are not restricted to orally administered > corticosteroids. [quoted text clipped - 124 lines] >> >> Thomas Russian - 16 Nov 2006 18:12 GMT > *Benadryl A thousand thanks for the Benadryl mention.
I don't take it because I don't like how it makes me feel, but I like it way better than the itching.
One Benadryl did the trick. And it may have calmed down the nausea as well.
I actually fear this kind of itching - I had once in the late 70's (maybe that was my own interferon kicking in).
Now I have a weapon and I'm not scared of itching attacks anymore.
This was a biggie for me.
elmoemerson@webtv.net - 16 Nov 2006 21:36 GMT If you're going to be taking benadryl, make sure you drink even MORE water. Antihistamines will dry you out lickity-split. elmo
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JV - 12 Nov 2006 18:05 GMT Sounds like your doing ok for the first 4. I hope it gets easier for you. Its winter now and you just better get used to being kind of idle. Start doing stuff at home forget going out if you really don't have to except to eat of course. As far as weight loss I put on 15lbs just for the tx and it was gone and a little more at the end. I was really lucky when it came to itching I never had any but it is a problem. The folks in hear know lots on that subject. Remember always move your shot back a day if you want to change it never foreward of you will go a 24hr span with no inf in you. Good luck and eat lots of ice cream it seems to be a #1 for some of us on tx. Juanita
Russian - 13 Nov 2006 02:03 GMT > Sounds like your doing ok for the first 4. I hope it gets easier for > you. Its winter now and you just better get used to being kind of idle. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > with no inf in you. Good luck and eat lots of ice cream it seems to be a > #1 for some of us on tx. Juanita Ice cream! Okay, will *force* myself to do so <smile>... thx.
PS: Yeah, that's why I put on 15 lbs before treatment, it was for medical reasons, yeah... <g>
Of course, in my great wisdom, I put on the extra weight several *years* before treatment, just to be safe... <g>
PS: Thanks...
flifla - 13 Nov 2006 04:49 GMT Hi Russian...welcome to the world of treatment.
Itching yes. I think it is caused by the really really dry skin the medications cause. Elbows are pretty dry. Vaseline Intensive Care lotion will burn- use plain old Vaseline. A VERY thin layer- believe me it works. I have been having to use it since beginning of tx and I am in week 38 now. I must use it around my eyes every night or else they dry out so badly the skin actually hurts. Keep your hands and doorknobs and anything you touch especially clean. If you go grocery shopping yourself try not to touch anything. I cover the shopping cart with a paper towel - I don't care what people think.
> Shot 4 of 48 on Friday. Tried doing it on Friday morning, thinking it > might give me more weekend uptime. I was fine during the day Friday. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > that oatmeal lotion - see how that works - Vaseline intensive care > actually burns sometimes.
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