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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / May 2006

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Ribavirin Dosage?

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Burke Gilman - 20 May 2006 21:18 GMT
Looking through the threads here, I'm beginning to think I'd like to
increase my ribavirin dosage--I'm now into week eight of Tx for HCV
type 3.

Given the care available to me, I think my provider will not prescribe
an increased dose, but I'm still looking into it. Presently I'm taking
800 mg per day, but according to some of the protocols that I read
about here in ash-c, my body weight justifies a greater dosage.

Fwiw, my Tx consists of fixed dosage riba and IFN. Specifically, my Rx
is Pegasys (peginterferon alfa-2a) 180 mcg SQ every week and Copegus
(ribavirin) 800 mg PO every day. I'm six feet tall, and my weight
during treatment has comfortably dropped down to 90 kg.

Sides have been usually mild and occasionally moderate, with a single
bout of n/v and 102F after shot 6 (I'm now into shot 8 and feeling OK).

Given my body weight and what I've found here about riba dosing, I'd go
up to 1200 mg/day if I had the choice.

Comments?

BG in Seattle
dortski - 20 May 2006 22:47 GMT
> Looking through the threads here, I'm beginning to think I'd like to
> increase my ribavirin dosage--I'm now into week eight of Tx for HCV
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> BG in Seattle

I had the same concerns when I read about the higher the riba the better to
kill the dragon. But for geno 2 and 3 it seems it's not as critical. I
completed 6 months of tx and post tx pcr was negative. I guess if my biopsy
results were up there stage and grade I would have insisted on a higher
dose. I will know in Oct. if I should have asked for a higher dose of riba.
It wouldn't hurt to ask your providers what they think.

Good luck....

dort
greyhackles - 20 May 2006 22:58 GMT
>Looking through the threads here, I'm beginning to think I'd like to
>increase my ribavirin dosage--I'm now into week eight of Tx for HCV
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>BG in Seattle

You are doing the classic Pegasys/Copegus regimen: the 180ug IFN is on the
high side of the weight-based 1.5ug/kg, while the 800mg Ribavirin is on the
low side given the preponderance of current data (at 90kg, at least 1000mg and
more likely 1200mg).

Intuitively, the higher dosage regimens *should* provide a commensurately
higher rate of SVR *if* the full regimen is maintained. In the real world,
there are forces working against that conclusion: drop-outs and dosage
reductions totally screw with the numbers, obviously; and then you have the
cases that would have obtained an SVR with the lower dose regimens anyway.

On the one hand, the largest WBD vs FD study conducted to date was so riddled
with serious problems that no solid conclusion can be drawn (I'm speaking of
WIN-R.  You can Google that study up pretty easily, every liver site has some
chunk of the data) but if forced one would have to conclude there was little
gain for any G-type with WBD over FD

On the other hand, numerous - much smaller, and presumably better managed
given the resulting data - studies indicate that for G1 with higher VLs there
is a significant increase in SVR with WBT vs FD, in the 5% or even better
range. The same studies tend to show less gain for G2 & G3, and all G-types
with low VL, however; the studies I reviewed showed a point or two improvement
- certainly noise level differences given the size of the cohorts used.

With all that said, were I starting tx, I would go with logic and intuition
and do WBD all the way, and *particularly* if the use of EPO/Procrit and/or
Neupogen was supported to manage any bloodwork issues that arose.
But, in your case, after 8 weeks on the 24 week plan, I expect any positive
value in upping the dosage now would be significantly reduced vs having
started at the higher dose from the jump.

Talk it over with your doc, he/she may allay any concerns you have. It's quite
possible your doc did the math and concluded you'd do just fine at 800mg.

Full disclosure: In my case (G1b, highish VL, F2-F3/A3, 100kg at start of tx)
I did 1400mg Riba on top of 150ug of Peg-2b, and I needed 35 weeks of EPO @60K
IU/week to make it through the full 48 weeks of tx. The mayhem proved
successful - at least to the 6 month post-therapy SVR test :-)

Cheers

/greyhackles
Canadave - 21 May 2006 14:06 GMT
greyhackles wrote numerous times:

"WBT vs FD..."???

David
dortski - 21 May 2006 15:28 GMT
> greyhackles wrote numerous times:
>
> "WBT vs FD..."???
>
> David

Hey David, I am guessing it means weight based dose vs standard dose for
those with genotype 2 and 3, which is 800mg of ribavirin.

dort
greyhackles - 21 May 2006 16:10 GMT
>> greyhackles wrote numerous times:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>dort

Yup, you got it.
I'd have made it easier if I hadn't made the typographical errors ;-)

Cheers

/greyhackles
greyhackles - 21 May 2006 16:09 GMT
>greyhackles wrote numerous times:
>
>"WBT vs FD..."???
>
>David

Oops. That's a typo, I meant WBD vs FD (Weight Based Dosing vs Fixed Dose).
Got lost in the acronym soup ;-)

/greyhackles
dortski - 21 May 2006 17:51 GMT
> >greyhackles wrote numerous times:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> /greyhackles

lol.....the FD had me stumped....duh....Fixed Dose...it's all so simple now,
hahahaha!

dort
Burke Gilman - 26 May 2006 02:37 GMT
greyhackles,

Thanks for your comments on ribavirin dosage. Since first reading your
reply last week, I've run across other information--such as studies
found by through the link to clinicaloptions.com/hepatitis posted
recently here in ash-c by Firestar under "Latest Hep C Info from EASL."

It appears I'm being prescribed a dosage which is the current standard
of care, and while WBD of ribavirin may produce better results in some
cases, it also appears to result in an increased rate of noncompliance
or interruption of treatment due to an increase in adverse reactions.
Thusly, in many cases (as you mentioned) WBD regimen of riba appears to
lead to reduced success in cases where the respective increased sides
interrupt the treatment protocol. Moreover, in G2 and G3 cases, there
appears to be little benefit in any case for those who are dosed with
more than the standard 800 mg of ribavirin per day - WBD riba appears
significantly beneficial in only some G1 cases.

I went into Tx (for HCV G3) with CBCs and LFTs all WNL , and my VL
rated as "very low" at 57,000 IU/mL. (As a side note, IMO if the ALT
upper limit were properly set according to sound statistical methods,
then my ALT levels of 48 U/L would rate as elevated, but I understand
my ALT is still low for a chronic HCV case.)  Therefore, because my
labs and genotype, my concern over whether or not my riba dose is
optimal is a reflection of the attention I'm paying to the Tx, rather
than a measure of the quality of care that I am receiving - I'm
quite fortunate to be receiving the care I'm getting, and quite
fortunate that the sides have usually been mild.

I did my 9th injection this morning, and next week I visit the doc to
see both my 4-week labs (including VL) and my 8-week labs (just CBCs
and TSH). Naturally, I'm eager to see the results. Meanwhile, I
administer the riba on an empty stomach with a spoonful of flaxseed
oil, continue to follow a calorie-restricted diet that is lowering my
BMI, and typically get a fair amount of physical exercise each day no
matter what.

Cheers,

BG in Seattle
greyhackles - 26 May 2006 04:51 GMT
>greyhackles,
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
>BG in Seattle

Yup, pretty much what we guessed was the reasoning - and the best part is it's
hard to argue with that conclusion. It's well founded - especially with that
*very low* viral load in a g2/g3 going in. You should do quite well!

And you apparently have the patience of Job - because lemme tell ya son,
there's no way in this Reality that I could have gone 5 weeks without knowing
what my last VL test results were! ;-)

Cheers

/greyhackles (nope. no way. i'd break into my bcld's office if I'd had to ;-)
Paul - 26 May 2006 11:01 GMT
On 25 May 2006 18:37:13 -0700, "Burke Gilman"
<burkegilman@moxmail.net>, in message ID
<1148607432.994308.230190@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, in the
newsgroup alt.support.hepatitis-c wrote:

>greyhackles,
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
>BG in Seattle

So long as your bloodwork remains OK, things should work alright for
you unless you get very unlucky.
Something I would query though is taking the riba on empty stomach
(not sure if the flaxseed oil counts)  :-)  .
I always understood that it was best to take ribe with a little food
(with some fat content) or very shortly afterwards.  IIRC, this is so
that the stomach acid works on it better so that the riba gets into
your system more.
Don't take my word for it though.
Burke Gilman - 26 May 2006 19:17 GMT
I take the ribavirin with some oil because the presence of fatty acids
is thought to increase the absorption of ribavirin, as you allude to in
your comments. I choose flaxseed oil over other fat sources for dietary
reasons not related to optimizing uptake of ribavirin. (Flaxseed oil is
uniquely rich in essential fatty acids and has an optimal proportion of
omega-3 to omega-6.)

My thinking on taking the riba on an empty stomach is also that
absorption would be increased. I will do some research and re-evaluate
that approach.

Thanks,

BG
Paul - 26 May 2006 19:22 GMT
On 26 May 2006 11:17:16 -0700, "Burke Gilman"
<burkegilman@moxmail.net>, in message ID
<1148667436.353318.253420@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>, in the
newsgroup alt.support.hepatitis-c wrote:

>I take the ribavirin with some oil because the presence of fatty acids
>is thought to increase the absorption of ribavirin, as you allude to in
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>BG

OK.  I wasn't aware of the fatty acids in the oil.  Sounds like you've
done your homework on this.
 
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