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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / October 2005

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Liver Biopsy

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anonymousone - 28 Oct 2005 00:57 GMT
Well, I was scheduled yesterday for my orientation for treatment.
The drugs are sitting in my refrigerator and medicine chest.

Today I asked the co-ordinator about my ultra sound tests and she said
my ultrasound was normal. I may have had this virus for 25-30 years but
I am pretty much symptom free (except for a tendency towards Type 2
diabetes which may be a result of the virus).

Anyway I cancelled the orientation and said I wanted to have a biopsy
done. It seems to me that I have to know the state of my liver before I
can know what to do.

With all these promising treatments on the horizon maybe I can wait
while. Then again maybe this is something my liver needs.

How can I know without a biopsy? I dont think I can.
greyhackles - 28 Oct 2005 01:21 GMT
>Well, I was scheduled yesterday for my orientation for treatment.
>The drugs are sitting in my refrigerator and medicine chest.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>How can I know without a biopsy? I dont think I can.

Congrats: you have the clue your coordinator apparently lacks.

A "clean" ultrasound means damned little with chronic HCV...

/greyhackles
elmoemerson@webtv.net - 28 Oct 2005 01:28 GMT
I'm surprised any 'decent' specialist would start you in tx without a
biopsy.  Seems like it borders on malpractice, to me.  Are you sure
you've got the right doctor?
elmo

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum
Doug - 28 Oct 2005 08:19 GMT
Some doctors think if they are going to treat anyway, why do an ultrasound?
Makes sense in some cases.  doogie

> I'm surprised any 'decent' specialist would start you in tx without a
> biopsy.  Seems like it borders on malpractice, to me.  Are you sure
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum
John Frykman - 28 Oct 2005 11:55 GMT
Aren't we discussing liver biopsies here? Who said anything about
ultrasound?

A liver biopsy is necessary to determine the level of inflammation and
disease progression.

No other test can determine this vital bit of information adequately, and
the decision of whether or not to treat should be based on this information
as well as the results of other tests.

An ultrasound can determine a lot of things, but it isn't effective in
determining the degree of inflammation, or even fibrosis.

> Some doctors think if they are going to treat anyway, why do an
> ultrasound? Makes sense in some cases.  doogie
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
>> http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum
John Frykman - 28 Oct 2005 13:41 GMT
Never mind--I missed the post about ultrasound, but I do agree that an
ultrasound is not a particularly useful test in diagnosing the progression
of chronic hepatitis C.

It's relatively cheap, and non invasive.  That may be why some practitioners
do it.

> Aren't we discussing liver biopsies here? Who said anything about
> ultrasound?
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>>>
>>> http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum
elmoemerson@webtv.net - 28 Oct 2005 14:07 GMT
Ultra-sound is useful in detecting enlarged organs, like the liver or
spleen.  It's also useful in detecting masses, like tumors and such.
That's generally why they are ordered by the docs.  Don't you think the
specialists that order them know their diagnostic limitations?  Whatta
ya think they're a bunch of dummies or something?  ahahahahahaha!!! (I
slay me too, Grey)
elmo

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum
Jim Klein - 30 Oct 2005 14:48 GMT
> Don't you think the specialists that order them know their diagnostic
> limitations?

Wow...you know a specialist that knows about limitations?  Now /that's/ a
discovery!

jk
elmoemerson@webtv.net - 30 Oct 2005 15:36 GMT

Re: Liver Biopsy  

Group: alt.support.hepatitis-c Date: Sun, Oct 30, 2005, 1:48pm (CST+6)
From: rumin8@ix.netcom.com (Jim Klein)
elmoemerson@webtv.net wrote:
Don't you think the specialists that order them know their diagnostic
limitations?
/////////
Wow...you know a specialist that knows about limitations? Now /that's/ a
discovery!
jk  
///////////
ahahahahahha!!  I know at least a couple of them.  :-)
elmo

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum
Thomas Wagner - 28 Oct 2005 15:23 GMT
>Well, I was scheduled yesterday for my orientation for treatment.
>The drugs are sitting in my refrigerator and medicine chest.
>
>Today I asked the co-ordinator about my ultra sound tests and she said
>my ultrasound was normal.

Which tells the doc pretty much nothing other than that you don't have a
significantly enlarged liver or liver cancer.

>I may have had this virus for 25-30 years but
>I am pretty much symptom free (except for a tendency towards Type 2
>diabetes which may be a result of the virus).

And there you have one reason for going into treatment now instead of in
five years. Your liver may be fine, but the virus seems to be causing
other symptoms.

>Anyway I cancelled the orientation and said I wanted to have a biopsy
>done. It seems to me that I have to know the state of my liver before I
>can know what to do.

Well... you certainly are correct that a biopsy will give you a better
base for a decision about treatment. But given that the liver is not the
only organ HCV attacks, it may be shortsighted to cancel treatment just
because your liver is fine when there are signs of other damage.

>With all these promising treatments on the horizon maybe I can wait
>while. Then again maybe this is something my liver needs.
>
>How can I know without a biopsy? I dont think I can.

Again, if it were only the liver, you would have a very good reason to
delay treatment until the results are in, and if the results show no
damage wait for better meds to appear on the market. But in your case it
may not be just the liver. With all the problems diabetes brings with
it, delaying treatment for five years or more may not be wise.

Given that you obviously have serious problems with accepting the need
for treatment, it certainly isn't worthwhile to start now. Take your
time to make a decision, but don't base your decision on the biopsy
results alone. Diabetes isn't fun, and there's no guarantee that it will
disappear with successful treatment. But if you're unsure, and are
worrying about each and every possible side effect (as your posts seem
to show), it does not make sense to start. Without a clear commitment to
treatment, you're a lot more likely to abort it prematurely, and then
you'll have gone through the whole mess without much benefit.

Just MAO
Thomas
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ghibelno - 28 Oct 2005 15:54 GMT
> Well, I was scheduled yesterday for my orientation for treatment.
> The drugs are sitting in my refrigerator and medicine chest.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> How can I know without a biopsy? I dont think I can.

Well,
 actually you are right, if you feel the need to do it for your own
serenity then go on.
You know, taking control (keeping myself informed, talking and talking
with doctors and nurses about my doubts, understanding things and
taking my own decisions) over my health condition was a great help for
me during treatment.
More important, most people (doctors included) think that having a
biopsy is the best way to know in which condition the liver is.

Anyway I'd like to tell you about my experience as it was similar to
yours and different from what happened to most of people here (and with
HepC in general).

In fact, I've had my treatment managed by very competent doctors, I've
been feeling very confortable with them through the whole duration of
it, and looking back, one month after the last Ribavirin pill I can say
they actually always took the right decision about me.
But guess what, like it happened to you, the same doctors said that a
biopsy was not needed in my case. Just before starting treatment, I
asked them more than once about this fact.
I mean I was reading here every day and looking at all these guys
showing up and saying the same old thing about the need for a biopsy
before starting, so I just *wanted* to have a biopsy, but the doctors
don't. Weird isn't it?
They just kept on answering: "If you want, you just can have one, but
why? We know your liver is quite all right, we've all the indicators
saying you should treat, you don't have chirrosis for sure, so you can
and you SHOULD treat, period. Now it's up to you.".

Then, once you have your biopsy done, take your decision and go for it.

I'll tell you that I was not so sure about starting treatment, but once
that I solved all my doubts and my mind was clear, I felt really
motivated and, once again, later on, this acted as a really great
psychological HELP.

Cheers,
Jeeb.
anonymousone - 28 Oct 2005 23:09 GMT
I have made no decison about treatment. I just want to have the liver
biopsy done. There doesnt seem to be significant harm in the biopsy and
it will give me a clearer picture of my condtion. Maybe I will treat,
Maybe I wont. I dont know yet. Maybe Ill know tommorrow or the next
day, or next week.
JV - 28 Oct 2005 23:36 GMT
You have interferon and riba in your fridge and medicine cabinet and you
don't know if your going to use it or not. Are you a flake or what?
Sounds like game playing.  Most people are quite serious about dong tx
they already know if they are going to do it by the time the meds
arrive. Since you have diabetes coming on isn't that enough to give you
a message? Maybe you a flake cause your dr. is a flake by not doing a
biopsy already.                                   Juanita  

The drugs are sitting in my refrigerator and medicine chest.
Today I asked the co-ordinator about my ultra sound tests and she said
my ultrasound was normal. I may have had this virus for 25-30 years but
I am pretty much symptom free (except for a tendency towards Type 2
diabetes which may be a result of the virus).
Anyway I cancelled the orientation and said I wanted to have a biopsy
done. It seems to me that I have to know the state of my liver before I
can know what to do.
With all these promising treatments on the horizon maybe I can wait
while. Then again maybe this is something my liver needs.
How can I know without a biopsy? I dont think I can.
greyhackles - 29 Oct 2005 01:13 GMT
>The drugs are sitting in my refrigerator and medicine chest.
>Today I asked the co-ordinator about my ultra sound tests and she said
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>a message? Maybe you a flake cause your dr. is a flake by not doing a
>biopsy already.                                   Juanita  

I'd go with the latter, though under the extenuating circumstances (the
diabetes), it's not as cut and dried a call as might be more typically
encountered (ie: if there's reason to believe the HCV is causing potentially
grave problems beyond the liver, perhaps the biopsy is of somewhat lower net
value)...

Cheers

/greyhackles
anonymousone - 29 Oct 2005 04:02 GMT
My main concern is my heart condition. Its actually not recommended for
people who have had heart problems in the past.
greyhackles - 29 Oct 2005 04:44 GMT
>My main concern is my heart condition. Its actually not recommended for
>people who have had heart problems in the past.

You have a valid point, though I don't know how wide the scope of "heart
problems" that might include. I expect the primary related issue is anemia and
how the body tends to react to it: what rbcs the marrow is able to pump out
tend to be larger than normal, the body trying to maintain blood volume in the
face of falling cell counts. And dehydration might play a roll in the list of
aggravating factors as well.

Someone already prone to ischemic events, particularly narrowed coronary
arteries, no doubt would have a heightened risk, and would likely need to be
closely monitored (weekly CBCs until numbers stabilize) and appropriate
countermeasures (EPO shots?) taken if necessary, to facilitate continuing with
therapy.

It'd certainly require a doctor that knows his/her stuff and isn't prone to
simply hitting the Shut It Down Button when the numbers start falling...

If I'm keeping straight who has what issues leading to a decision to treat, it
seems you have enough concerns pro and con to warrant taking a little extra
time to decide to pull the treatment trigger or not.

Cheers, and good luck making your decision.

/greyhackles
anonymousone - 29 Oct 2005 05:28 GMT
Thanks you seem to be sensible. Im leaning towards treatment right now.
What is CBC and EPO. Is that the hemoglobin measure and the procrit?
greyhackles - 29 Oct 2005 17:55 GMT
>Thanks you seem to be sensible. Im leaning towards treatment right now.
>What is CBC and EPO. Is that the hemoglobin measure and the procrit?

You got it. "CBC" = Complete Blood Count, which characterizes the counts (and
conditions if "CBC with Differential" is ordered) of significant blood cells
(whites, reds, and platelets).

And EPO is shorthand for the human growth factor ("HGF") that boosts
production of red blood cells ("RBCs") which carry hemoglobin ("HGB" or "HG").

So, HCV turns out to be Acronym Soup ;-)

Cheers - and again, good luck, either way.

/greyhackles
Bri Kid - 29 Oct 2005 05:41 GMT
Have the biopsy done, Don't pay attention to people who tell you it's
not neccesarry or  it's not relevant. Do it. It's not that bad and the
sugeons advice can save your life.You want to learn more about the
condition of your liver. Have the doc get a close peek. It only hurts
for a few seconds. Then you roll over on your side and get a blast of
demoral and they send u packing 4 hours later. Do it.  Brian
anonymousone - 29 Oct 2005 20:06 GMT
I can see that having the liver biopsy is wise. It is going to be done.

However, it would not have been done had I not insisted on it.
elmoemerson@webtv.net - 30 Oct 2005 15:34 GMT

Re: Liver Biopsy  

Group: alt.support.hepatitis-c Date: Sat, Oct 29, 2005, 12:06pm (CST-1)
From: tedw2@earthlink.net (anonymousone)
I can see that having the liver biopsy is wise. It is going to be done.
However, it would not have been done had I not insisted on it.
//////////
Smart move, Ted!  If you hadn't been a member of this group, would you
have known enough to demand a biopsy?  Just curious....
elmo

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum
 
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