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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / October 2005

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Ozone therapy 99.96 viral load reduction?

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anonymousone - 21 Oct 2005 12:08 GMT
Im not promoting this. I just want feedback. Ive searched through the
old posts and find very little about Ozone therapy. Has anybody here
tried Ozone therapy? If so, how many treatments and what results? I
have found some information on the web that it may have efficacy, and
the book "Alternative medicine: The definitive guide also suggest some
efficacy"

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:Q4Yf0uYsJhAJ:www.digitalnaturopath.com/treat/
T216561.html+OZONE+THERAPY+SUCCESS+WITH++HEPATITIS+C+&hl=en


Hepatitis
      Some viruses are much more susceptible to ozone's action than
others. It has been found that lipid-enveloped viruses such as HBV and
HCV are among the most sensitive. While many doctors are reporting good
success in treating Hepatitis with ozone, there have been limited
studies performed.In a small trial of 8 patients in which post
treatment follow-up information was available, viral loads by
Polymerase Chain Reaction, taken at the onset of ozone therapy, then
repeated following completion of the therapy, were compared. An average
viral load reduction of 99.96% was achieved. At the onset of treatment
7 of the 8 patients also had elevated liver enzyme levels - SGOT (AST)
and SGPT (ALT). Following ozone therapy these measures fell into the
normal range."Major autohemotherapy has been demonstrated countless
times as being effective in hepatitis B and C. By doing this procedure,
at least 15-21 days, we've been able to see hepatitis completely wiped
out," claims pioneering physician Dr. John Pittman.
John Frykman - 21 Oct 2005 13:29 GMT
I would be highly suspicious of any treatment that suggests that ingesting
(through any means) or inhaling a highly poisonous gas such as ozone doesn't
cause much more harm than good.

Ozone is a powerful oxidant with a strong correlation to cancer in humans.
Many health conscious individuals take copious amounts (perhaps inadvisedly)
of vitamins C and E, as well as zinc, because they are ANTI-oxidants and
therefore may reduce the risk of certain cancers from such things as OZONE.

Perhaps viruses are susceptible to ozone's powerful oxidizing properties,
but so are most living cells that are not infected with viruses.

Has anyone tested Dioxin's effect on HCV?

> Im not promoting this. I just want feedback. Ive searched through the
> old posts and find very little about Ozone therapy. Has anybody here
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> at least 15-21 days, we've been able to see hepatitis completely wiped
> out," claims pioneering physician Dr. John Pittman.
John Frykman - 21 Oct 2005 13:51 GMT
A post-script on this with regard to the "qualifications" of Dr. Pittman
from Quackwatch:

http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/pittman.html

>I would be highly suspicious of any treatment that suggests that ingesting
>(through any means) or inhaling a highly poisonous gas such as ozone
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>> at least 15-21 days, we've been able to see hepatitis completely wiped
>> out," claims pioneering physician Dr. John Pittman.
anonymousone - 21 Oct 2005 18:02 GMT
Quakwatch is not all that credible to me. I believe they also pooh pooh
Chelation Therapy which I know from first hand experience can be very
effective.
JV - 21 Oct 2005 18:35 GMT
When you start wanting Qackery methods. Your gonna be refered to
Quackwatch. If this stuff dosent kill HCV it is of no value.
Juanita
Gordo Mondragon - 21 Oct 2005 19:21 GMT
They don't pooh pooh it, they examine the available information and come
to the conclusion that there is no scientific support for it doing
anything but moving money from the gullible to the unethical.

Perhaps ozone therapy is just what you're looking for, then.

> Quakwatch is not all that credible to me. I believe they also pooh pooh
> Chelation Therapy which I know from first hand experience can be very
> effective.
elmoemerson@webtv.net - 22 Oct 2005 01:07 GMT

Re: Ozone therapy 99.96 viral load reduction?  

Group: alt.support.hepatitis-c Date: Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 10:02am (CDT-2)
From: tedw2@earthlink.net (anonymousone)
Quakwatch is not all that credible to me. I believe they also pooh pooh
Chelation Therapy which I know from first hand experience can be very
effective.
/////////////
Did it cure your hcv?  
elmo

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum
elmoemerson@webtv.net - 21 Oct 2005 13:53 GMT
Succinctly put.....it's 'bullshit'.  :-)
elmo

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum
anonymousone - 21 Oct 2005 18:01 GMT
Ozone Treatment is not ingested. It is IV. Apparently pretty popular in
Germany. Over 10,000,000 people treated with very few, if any, adverse
effects.

> I would be highly suspicious of any treatment that suggests that ingesting
> (through any means) or inhaling a highly poisonous gas such as ozone doesn't
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> > at least 15-21 days, we've been able to see hepatitis completely wiped
> > out," claims pioneering physician Dr. John Pittman.
Gordo Mondragon - 21 Oct 2005 19:34 GMT
It is not approved or condoned by the medical establishment in Germany.

The population of Germany is ~82 million.  10 million have had this
treatment?  If so, why are there no peer-reviewed academic studies
showing that it works?  It should be a no-brainer, yet they don't exist.

More snake oil.

> Ozone Treatment is not ingested. It is IV. Apparently pretty popular in
> Germany. Over 10,000,000 people treated with very few, if any, adverse
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> > > at least 15-21 days, we've been able to see hepatitis completely wiped
> > > out," claims pioneering physician Dr. John Pittman.
Michael Cody - 21 Oct 2005 19:39 GMT
> More snake oil.

Has anyone tested snake oil? Wouldn't that be something ...

Cody
anonymousone - 21 Oct 2005 20:33 GMT
Actually ,  I heard snake oil is high in essientail fatty acids and
would have some benefite. However, most people prefer  fish oil
capsules.
anonymousone - 21 Oct 2005 20:35 GMT
But fish oil is not effective for HEP C I might hasten to add
Russ - 21 Oct 2005 22:41 GMT
I'll bet a 44 magnum could kill the virus..... ok I'm kidding.....

Signature

Russ

Visit Alaska @ http://www.tannersacre.com

> > More snake oil.
>
> Has anyone tested snake oil? Wouldn't that be something ...
>
> Cody
anonymousone - 21 Oct 2005 20:31 GMT
Good question. I dont know if they exist or not. My understanding is
that a lot of people go to Germany for Ozone treatment. I believe Ozone
is approved by the medical establishment in Russia. No approval in
Germany because its not needed.
Thomas Wagner - 21 Oct 2005 21:27 GMT
>Ozone Treatment is not ingested. It is IV. Apparently pretty popular in
>Germany. Over 10,000,000 people treated with very few, if any, adverse
>effects.

That is complete nonsense, and you don't even need to think very hard to
notice that. Ozone treatment is not recognized as any kind of reputable
treatment in Germany or anywhere else. Simple logic should tell you that
claims about 10 million treated without side effects MUST be bogus. Not
only would that mean that 12.5% of all Germans (no matter whether
healthy or sick) were treated with Ozone, it would also mean that the
treatment must be ineffective. There is no effective treatment with a
highly aggressive agent without side effects.

Any "information" you find on the Web but not in serious medical
journals should be taken not just with a grain, but with a ton of salt.
That goes especially for claims of "alternative" medicine. There's so
much bullshit out there, sometimes posted by well meaning but misguided
people, but mostly just by folks trying to make a quick buck, that the
few "alternatives" that just might have something to them get buried in
the muck. Without some verification by reputable publications, all such
claims should be considered invalid until proven otherwise. One good
pointer regarding the credibility of this particular claim was already
posted, just follow the links in that article, especially this one:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/oxygen.html

Ozone and similar therapies might actually reduce viral load. They will
also kill the rest of your body's cells. Ozone isn't selective, it's
going to oxidize whatever it comes across, whether friend or foe. And as
we all know (or should know), even a 99.96% viral load reduction (if
it's even true in the first place) is worthless, because you need a 100%
reduction or the virus will come back. This would likely be impossible
to achieve with Ozone without killing the patient. Whether O3 could
potentially have some value as an adjunct to standard therapy... it's
unlikely, as its side effects are nasty.

Sorry, but your personal experiences with the benefits of chelation
therapy probably are based on the placebo effect as well, it's quite
well known that there are few legitimate applications for chelation. You
don't say what kind of chelation you went through, but it's likely that
it didn't do much more for your health than a saline injection.

Thomas
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anonymousone - 22 Oct 2005 03:42 GMT
> >Ozone Treatment is not ingested. It is IV. Apparently pretty popular in
> >Germany. Over 10,000,000 people treated with very few, if any, adverse
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> --
> To reach me, complete my last name in the address.

"Sorry, but your personal experiences with the benefits of chelation
therapy probably are based on the placebo effect as well, it's quite
well known that there are few legitimate applications for chelation"

Thomas I thought you were very knowledgeable from reading your previous
posts. But your certainly not knowledgeable about Chelation. Many
alternative health practioners use it, and some were previously
allopathic physicians.

After approx. 150 chelation treatments, having my blood pressure drop
from  100 to 80, angina disappering, and avoiding bypass surgery were
some of the benefits derived. In New Zealand Chelation therapy is
mandated before bypass surgery in most cases. There are several good
books on the subject including "Bypassing bypass". So what you say is
"well-known" is disputed by many. Your entitled to your opinion
regarding chelation, but I know better.
Thomas Wagner - 22 Oct 2005 04:54 GMT
>"Sorry, but your personal experiences with the benefits of chelation
> therapy probably are based on the placebo effect as well, it's quite
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>alternative health practioners use it, and some were previously
>allopathic physicians.

"Were previously allopathic physicians" is supposed to be a sign of
quality? Oh my...

>After approx. 150 chelation treatments, having my blood pressure drop
>from  100 to 80, angina disappering, and avoiding bypass surgery were
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>"well-known" is disputed by many. Your entitled to your opinion
>regarding chelation, but I know better.

Ah yes, you know better than the American Heart Association:

[...] "The American Heart Association can’t say why some people feel
better after having chelation therapy. And we don’t deny that some
people actually may feel better after treatment. So what’s the problem?

The problem is, we question whether these patients feel better because
of chelation therapy. It’s possible they feel better because of
something else.

For example, chelation therapists usually require their patients to make
lifestyle changes. This can include quitting smoking, losing weight,
eating more fruits and vegetables, avoiding foods high in saturated fats
and exercising regularly. These are healthy changes for anyone to make,
and patients make them at the same time that they’re undergoing
chelation therapy. That’s what clouds the issue. Research has shown that
these  lifestyle changes improve patients’ quality of life and sense of
well-being. In fact, we have advocated these lifestyle changes for many
years.

The American Heart Association believes that these lifestyle changes are
probably why the condition of some patients improves. We believe they
don’t feel better because of chelation therapy with EDTA, but because of
better, healthier habits that they adopt.

Patients also may feel better for psychological reasons. Sometimes a
sick person’s symptoms disappear for no apparent reason, due to a
placebo effect. This could be why some patients report that they feel
better after they’ve spent $3,000 to $5,000 for chelation therapy."
[...]
http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3000843

Thomas
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anonymousone - 22 Oct 2005 06:40 GMT
> >"Sorry, but your personal experiences with the benefits of chelation
> > therapy probably are based on the placebo effect as well, it's quite
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> --
> To reach me, complete my last name in the address.

You kind of have an attitude dont you? There are many Doctors who
subscribe to the efficacy of Chelation. Ive seen it with my own eyes.
Who should I believe the Anerican Heart Associaton or my lying eyes.
Thomas Wagner - 22 Oct 2005 15:25 GMT
>You kind of have an attitude dont you?

Yes indeed, I have an attitude. An attitude of supporting science over
quackery, and exposing medical fraud when I see it.

>There are many Doctors who subscribe to the efficacy of Chelation.

No reputable doctors, that's for sure. Your claim that New Zealand
requires chelation before bypass is false, as was your claim about Ozone
treatment in Germany.

>Ive seen it with my own eyes.

Did you even read the explanation the AHA gave? Or is your mind closed?

>Who should I believe the Anerican Heart Associaton or my lying eyes.

You have had a "personal" experience that can be explained by other
effects than chelation. You have no proof that what made you better was
the therapy. All trials that were done under controlled conditions
showed ZERO effect compared to placebo. Yet you think you know better?

Oh well...

Thomas

P.S. - From the same page:

Food and Drug Administration:

In the absence of evidence of safety and effectiveness, the use of this
treatment for atherosclerosis is investigational. To date, no physician
or sponsor has filed a plan or protocol to study its (EDTA’s) use in
such treatment.

No party has ever provided us with an organized submission attempting to
show that it is an effective therapy in atherosclerosis; instead, we
have been handed unorganized data without any attempt to describe a
formal study.

Under the circumstances, we have had no choice but to attempt to prevent
improper promotion of the drug and to point out its unproven status.

American College of Physicians:

Chelation therapy with EDTA has been used in the treatment and
prevention of atherosclerosis. Because of the risk of severe renal
(kidney) toxicity and lack of objective evidence suggesting therapeutic
benefit from EDTA therapy … such therapy should be regarded as
investigational and (should be) conducted under carefully controlled
conditions in an academic institution by experienced investigators.

National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute, National Institutes of
Health:

There is no reason to expect benefit from chelation in the management of
arteriosclerosis. More importantly, there has been no scientific
evidence of such benefit — and there is scientific evidence of no
benefit.

American Medical Association:

The AMA believes that chelation therapy for atherosclerosis is an
experimental process without proven efficacy. They have also reaffirmed
their 1984 House of Delegates Resolution stating:

“…there is no scientific documentation that the use of chelation therapy
is effective in the treatment of cardiovascular disease,
atherosclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis, and cancer;

“…if chelation therapy is to be considered a useful medical treatment
for anything other than heavy metal poisoning, hypercalcemia, or
digitalis toxicity, it is the responsibility of its proponents to (a)
conduct properly controlled scientific studies, (b) adhere to Food and
Drug Administration (FDA) guidelines for the investigation of drugs, and
(c) disseminate results of scientific studies in the usually accepted
channels.

American College of Cardiology:

There is insufficient scientific evidence to justify the application of
chelation therapy for atherosclerosis on a clinical basis. At the
present time, therefore, chelation therapy should be applied only under
an investigational protocol.

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3000843
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anonymousone - 22 Oct 2005 20:31 GMT
> >You kind of have an attitude dont you?
>
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
> --
> To reach me, complete my last name in the address.

Thomas:

Here is a link to a site that verifies that New Zealnnd requires
Chelation Therapy prior to bypass.

http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?p=New+Zealand+chelation+is+required+&prssweb
=Search&ei=UTF-8&fl=0&u=www.doctortalk.com/bdrtalkartchel.html&w=new+zealand+che
lation+required&d=axB82mFULmEP&icp=1&.intl=us


In fact here is the entire post:

Chelation

by Howard E. Hagglund, M.D.

960,000 Americans have cardiovascular accidents every year!

The total number of Americans suffering from cardiovascular disease is
about 58 million. Fixing the heart isn't the answer. The problem is
the whole system: the kidneys, the eyes, the brain. According to the
New England Journal of Medicine, coronary artery surgery neither
prolongs life nor prevents further problems.

Research during the last two years has shown that the coronary bypass
has already been done by the heart before the surgeon gets there. This
is called collateral circulation and more than equalizes the need for
blood in the area. The cost of coronary artery surgery every year is
nearly $18.4 billion. This includes the vast number of drugs brought
into play that frequently lead to early death and further dysfunction
of the heart. In New Zealand it is required by law to have chelation
before cardiovascular surgery.

The cost of chelation is roughly $2000-$4000. A recent Canadian study
shows that it is very helpful in Type II diabetes. The original studies
done on chelation therapy were back in 1955 at Providence hospital in
Detroit MI. They were very successful. Nineteen out of twenty heart
patients enjoyed total relief. Other symptoms include chest pain and
cramps in the legs. A second study was done on a larger group during
the next two years with the same conclusion.

Hundreds of papers have been presented around the world showing the
success of EDT chelation therapy. Through meta-analysis (a statistical
way of combining various studies), it was shown that over 24,000
chelation patients were studied -- 92% of the patients had major
improvement.

Benefits of EDT chelation therapy proven by literature research:
prevents cholesterol deposits, heals necrotic ulcers, reduces blood
cholesterol and blood pressure, avoid bypass surgery& balloon
angioplasty, improves heart function, restores serum iron levels,
reverses kidney disease due to diabetes, anti-aging effect and improves
mental concentration.
Thomas Wagner - 24 Oct 2005 00:43 GMT
>Here is a link to a site that verifies that New Zealnnd requires
>Chelation Therapy prior to bypass.

Verifies? That's an unverified statement by a supporter of chelation. It
verifies nothing. Rather, it shows that supporters of chelation even use
outright lies - not surprising, since they have nothing but lies to
bolster their case.

If you don't google that selectively but rather try to really verify
that statement, you'll find that clearly chelation is NOT AT ALL
"required" before bypass, but rather is (as in every other civilized
country) considered an unproven and ineffective pseudo-treatment. As
everywhere else, it's only done in so-called "alternative" clinics, not
by mainstream medicine.
http://www.guideline.gov/summary/summary.aspx?ss=14&doc_id=4563&string=

In fact, a study done in New Zealand in 1994 found chelation to be
worthless compared to placebo.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8
087928&dopt=Citation


Chelation does have limited use in acute heavy metal poisoning. Any
other use of chelation constitutes medical fraud.

Thomas
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John Frykman - 24 Oct 2005 13:18 GMT
Ah----

"There are none so blind as those who will not see"

The kind of pseudo-religious fervor generated by "alternative" medicine is
unfortunate.  There are some such remedies that do in fact have merit.

But as long as the enlightened thump their Bibles and cite "scientific"
proof that the moon is made of green cheese, most reasonable folks will
dismiss them all as charlatans.

That's unfortunate.

>>Here is a link to a site that verifies that New Zealnnd requires
>>Chelation Therapy prior to bypass.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Thomas
Thomas Wagner - 24 Oct 2005 16:34 GMT
>Ah----
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>That's unfortunate.

Indeed it is. There must be some basis to at least a part of the "folk"
remedies and the Asian medical canon. But because so many hucksters and
frauds are occupying the field, few serious researchers dare to touch
anything related because they would be risking their reputation and
become involved in controversies. This whole chelation charlatanery is a
case in point, with those researchers doing serious studies coming under
relentless attacks by quacks criticizing each and every aspect of those
studies, though they never attempt to provide anything better. And, as
we've also seen in this case, proponents simply tell lies, no matter how
transparent and easy to disprove, hoping that something will stick.
Unfortunately, their tactics are working. The general public is too
easily fooled because science education is woefully inadequate and the
media is not doing its job.

Thomas
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greyhackles - 22 Oct 2005 17:07 GMT
>You kind of have an attitude dont you? There are many Doctors who
>subscribe to the efficacy of Chelation. Ive seen it with my own eyes.
>Who should I believe the Anerican Heart Associaton or my lying eyes.

Oh, wow....you didn't go *there*, did you?
cactus jammies - 21 Oct 2005 22:04 GMT
I understand that Ozone helps when generated in a room to remove pot smoke
residue.  Other than that, too high a concentration of Ozone in the
atmosphere is equal to asphixiation, like when diesel smoke is breathed in.
Diesel smoke contains a high level of Ozone, among other toxic particulates
etc.

cactus jammies (avoids diesel, just sits in a cloud of pot smoke all day
long)
................................................................................................................
> Ozone Treatment is not ingested. It is IV. Apparently pretty popular in
> Germany. Over 10,000,000 people treated with very few, if any, adverse
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>> > at least 15-21 days, we've been able to see hepatitis completely wiped
>> > out," claims pioneering physician Dr. John Pittman.
Gordo Mondragon - 22 Oct 2005 18:03 GMT
My hot tub undergoes constant ozone therapy to keep the water clear of
living organisms.  

> I understand that Ozone helps when generated in a room to remove pot smoke
> residue.  Other than that, too high a concentration of Ozone in the
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> >> > at least 15-21 days, we've been able to see hepatitis completely wiped
> >> > out," claims pioneering physician Dr. John Pittman.
John Frykman - 22 Oct 2005 13:03 GMT
I was using the broad definition of ingest, which is defined as "to take
into the body by any means, as by inhalation, injection, absorption, as well
as through the mouth." If you read my post, you will see I used the words
"by any means" which certainly includes IV.

Lots of irrational behaviors, such as injecting "recreational" drugs, which
as we all know can lead to HCV infection are "popular."  This doesn't mean
they are healthy or wise.

I seriously doubt that one out of 8 Germans has been treated with ozone
therapy.  Where did that statistic come from?  Hard to believe anyone is
gullible enough to believe such ridiculous numbers.

Dr. John Pittman nearly killed one of his patients by driving her hemoglobin
count down to 3.8--a predictable outcome of exposing living tissue to ozone.
He charges nearly $4,000 for the first week of "treatment," and close to
$2,000 a week thereafter.  Does this sound like he is motivated by the
health concerns of his patients.

If he wants to experiment on animals with his quackery, he should limit
himself to lab mice, not human beings.

But if you are comfortable with ozone therapy, go ahead, "knock yourself
out."  Why are you coming to this group for advice?

You stated that you are not advocating ozone treatment.  Sure could have
fooled me.

> Ozone Treatment is not ingested. It is IV. Apparently pretty popular in
> Germany. Over 10,000,000 people treated with very few, if any, adverse
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>> > at least 15-21 days, we've been able to see hepatitis completely wiped
>> > out," claims pioneering physician Dr. John Pittman.
Whatsup Doc - 22 Oct 2005 20:32 GMT
Ted, concerning ozone therapy. its bullshit. i waded in that for a bit.
first of all, that therapy does not deliver ozone on a cellular level.
Nor does oxygen therapy. (except via the natural route thru breathing.
Hyper or otherwise.......        Let your food be your medicine and your
medicine be your food. ( and perhaps some peg and co-peg!)
anonymousone - 22 Oct 2005 21:40 GMT
Thanks for the polite response. I appreciate it. Thats all I was
looking for was a sincere honest answer. I have my doubts about it too.
kjoh - 23 Oct 2005 00:36 GMT
Hello Ted.  I would like to hear a bit more about your experience with
chelation therapy, if you are iclined to tell. And perhaps a reference
link or two?  I will consider it "on topic" and you should post it here,
but if you'd rather, you can email me.  Are you the fellow who studied
nutrition for a while?  I'm getting you newbies mixed up.   So many of you
just starting tx! All bumping into each other in a kind of tx "brownian
motion" event

Thanks,
Kathy  35/48
kjohyayhoo at yahoo dot com
anonymousone - 23 Oct 2005 01:45 GMT
I'll write something about my experience when I get time. If you are
interested in Chelation there are 2 good books. "Bypassing Bypass" and
"Fourtysomething Forever",
Whatsup Doc - 24 Oct 2005 02:17 GMT
chelation.... yes.... first came to patients to remove heavy metals like
lead and others. Therapuetic phlebotomies are my choice. For every 500
ml. of whole blood removal to lower my iron count, I also remove some
hcv. Not to mention 40 + years of free radicals trapped in the enclosed
circulatory system. Easy though. Too much to fast and you can develop an
iron anemia that can stay with you till death. And, its not for
everybody. I have a bag o blood removed every two weeks for six months
then once a month for six months. I am going on 4 years of this. The
EDTA in chelation concerns me per se my kidneys. Too much, that is.
 
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