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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / July 2005not good news
Dear group, Sadly: I have the virus back. After 48 - and after negative result in April - three months later I have relapsed. I feel physically good - recovered from the tx, but this news threw me in a deep depression. I really need a good share of support and advise. I feel as the same way, as I was feeling one and a half year ago - when I heard for the first time that I had HCV. Backo Look at the bright side: you're not dead.  SignatureCody Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me. Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail. > Dear group, > Sadly: I have the virus back. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > first time that I had HCV. > Backo Re: not good news Group: alt.support.hepatitis-c Date: Thu, Jul 21, 2005, 2:21pm (CDT+7) From: aka@[ notme ]maskedandanonymous.jjrrt (Cody) Look at the bright side: you're not dead. SignatureCody Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me. Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail. "Captain Backo" <kapite@trus.com> wrote Dear group, Sadly: I have the virus back. After 48 - and after negative result in April - three months later I have relapsed. I feel physically good - recovered from the tx, but this news threw me in a deep depression. I really need a good share of support and advise. I feel as the same way, as I was feeling one and a half year ago - when I heard for the first time that I had HCV. Backo /////////// Sorry to hear that, CB. I think I know how you feel about now and I can assure you it's not the end of the world. This group is never short on advice, LOL. You know we're here to support you. Take care, bro! Elmo http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum Elmo, Thank you very much to you and to all the ng. It is a bad moment, but I will fight further. Will keep you posted. CB > Re: not good news > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum Look at the bright side: you're not dead. SignatureCody //////// Geeeez, Cody. http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum > Look at the bright side: you're not dead. Yes? What can I do for you on ash-c "where the fun never stops!" SignatureCody Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me. Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail. Hi Cody, Thanks, I am still alive and feel OK. Wish you good health. CB > Look at the bright side: you're not dead. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > first time that I had HCV. > > Backo That's cold, Cody. Shame on you. > Look at the bright side: you're not dead. > That's cold, Cody. Shame on you. I didn't mean it the way you obviously took it. We should all be thankful we are not dead and many of us have received far more years than we ever thought possible. A friend of mine was not so fortunate; he died this past Monday. I just found out about it today. He was on kidney dialysis and was the same age as I am so, yes, being alive *is* the bright side. SignatureCody Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me. Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail. >> Look at the bright side: you're not dead. >>That's cold, Cody. Shame on you. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Monday. I just found out about it today. He was on kidney dialysis and was > the same age as I am so, yes, being alive *is* the bright side. Sorry to hear about your loss Cody and yes it is good to alive, even in the shape I'm in. Dwight Re: not good news Group: alt.support.hepatitis-c Date: Fri, Jul 22, 2005, 2:04am (CDT+5) From: Dwight@Me.net (Dwight) Cody wrote: "Thip" <me@privacy.net> wrote That's cold, Cody. Shame on you. I didn't mean it the way you obviously took it. We should all be thankful we are not dead and many of us have received far more years than we ever thought possible. A friend of mine was not so fortunate; he died this past Monday. I just found out about it today. He was on kidney dialysis and was the same age as I am so, yes, being alive *is* the bright side. Sorry to hear about your loss Cody and yes it is good to alive, even in the shape I'm in. Dwight ////////// I'm sorry to hear that too, Cody. Elmo http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum > Re: not good news > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I'm sorry to hear that too, Cody. > Elmo Thank you, Elmo and Dwight. SignatureCody Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me. Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail. Once again thanks, Cody. I am sorry to hearabout your friend. Backo > > Re: not good news > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me. > Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail. Thanks, Backo. Cody > Once again thanks, Cody. > I am sorry to hearabout your friend. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >> Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me. >> Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail. I apologize, Cody. Sorry to hear about your friend. >> Re: not good news >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Thank you, Elmo and Dwight. No problem, Thip. SignatureCody Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me. Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail. >I apologize, Cody. Sorry to hear about your friend. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> >> Thank you, Elmo and Dwight. Smiling Wickedly, Cody answered: >>That's cold, Cody. Shame on you. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Monday. I just found out about it today. He was on kidney dialysis and was > the same age as I am so, yes, being alive *is* the bright side. I'm too, sorry about your friend Cody. That's Sad news. Signature*..· ´¨¨)) ¸.·´ .·´¨¨)) ((¸¸.·´ .·´-:¦:-((¸¸.·´(º·.¸(¨*·.¸ ¸.·*¨)¸.·º) «.·°·. Michael .·°·-:¦:- > Dear group, > Sadly: I have the virus back. That's awful. We know the percentages going in but we have to believe that we'll be in the good side, not the failure side. > After 48 - and after negative result in April - three months later I > have relapsed. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > heard for the > first time that I had HCV. Have you talked to your doctor about a plan for what happens next? For me, having a list of things to do, to know what we're doing, makes a big difference. Gordo >> Dear group, >> Sadly: I have the virus back. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Gordo I completed a 48 week regimen in 11/02. Virus returned in Feb. 03 tests. Frankly, I'm still alive and according to the Hepatologist at IU Medical Center my latest liver biopsy post treatment suggests at least 20 more years. I'm 50 and have probably had Hep C since the early 70's. Get up, get out, and live your life. The good thing about Hep C is that in general it doesn't impact your life at all until the late stages. Of course the booze has to go. Bruce bruceNOT@bdbbq.com [...] > I completed a 48 week regimen in 11/02. Virus returned in Feb. 03 > tests. Frankly, I'm still alive and according to the Hepatologist at > IU Medical Center my latest liver biopsy post treatment suggests at > least 20 more years. I'm 50 and have probably had Hep C since the > early 70's. Given all the research that's been going on, the new drugs in the pipeline, and all that's been learned about retroviruses from HIV, I have to believe that there will be other treatments - possible cures, or at least maintenance drugs that suppress the virus so it doesn't do any more damage - in the next couple of years. Congrats on the good liver :) > Get up, get out, and live your life. The good thing about Hep C is > that in general it doesn't impact your life at all until the late > stages. Of course the booze has to go. Very good advice. Thanks Bruce, I am happy for your biopsy results. Mine were fibrosis III grade one year ago (before the tx). Now I have VL of 32 million (5 million before tx). Good luck. and Thanks CB > >> Dear group, > >> Sadly: I have the virus back. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Bruce > bruceNOT@bdbbq.com Thanks Gordo, the option here in Holland is longer tx instead of 48 weeks - oneand a half year. Tha I will know later. CB > > Dear group, > > Sadly: I have the virus back. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Gordo > Dear group, > Sadly: I have the virus back. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > first time that I had HCV. > Backo ugh, that sucks for sure. Best wishes for getting through this next struggle. Got anti d's? ((HUG)) Mary Ann Mary Ann, Thanks a lot. Will keep you informed. CB > > Dear group, > > Sadly: I have the virus back. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > ((HUG)) > Mary Ann Oh news like this is the last thing you wanted to hear. But life goes on and so shall you. :) Your feeling recovered from tx and the new drugs on the horizon with different approaches being developed are going to be of great use. One day there is going to be a large improvement in tx in the next coming years. Interferon just isn't for everyone and if you got out with a thyroid in tack you got something to be thankful for. Now its time to start keeping up with the new stuff being tested. Since they can now stabilize the virus in the lab and watch the different phases of progression, its going to open the doors to slay dragons with information never before seen by the human eye. Hang in there its just hurry up and wait. In the mean time take good care of yourself and be kind to yourself. Warm hugs Juanita ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ kapite@trus.com (Captain Backo) Dear group, Sadly: I have the virus back. After 48 - and after negative result in April - three months later I have relapsed. I feel physically good - recovered from the tx, but this news threw me in a deep depression. I really need a good share of support and advise. I feel as the same way, as I was feeling one and a half year ago - when I heard for the first time that I had HCV. Backo Thanks a lot for the support, Juanita. I will do my best to take care of myself and prepare for the next fight. I am also hoping for the new drugs, but for the time being I heard that the option is longer tx : 1 and a half year instead of 48 weeks. CB Oh news like this is the last thing you wanted to hear. But life goes on and so shall you. :>) Your feeling recovered from tx and the new drugs on the horizon with different approaches being developed are going to be of great use. One day there is going to be a large improvement in tx in the next coming years. Interferon just isn't for everyone and if you got out with a thyroid in tack you got something to be thankful for. Now its time to start keeping up with the new stuff being tested. Since they can now stabilize the virus in the lab and watch the different phases of progression, its going to open the doors to slay dragons with information never before seen by the human eye. Hang in there its just hurry up and wait. In the mean time take good care of yourself and be kind to yourself. Warm hugs Juanita ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ kapite@trus.com (Captain Backo) Dear group, Sadly: I have the virus back. After 48 - and after negative result in April - three months later I have relapsed. I feel physically good - recovered from the tx, but this news threw me in a deep depression. I really need a good share of support and advise. I feel as the same way, as I was feeling one and a half year ago - when I heard for the first time that I had HCV. Backo Capatin B remember this is about you and if you need Anti-ds, get some its not up to anyone but you. Only you know how you feel inside. :) Juanita Juanita, thank you very much. I will get some rest now and vacation. cb Capatin B remember this is about you and if you need Anti-ds, get some its not up to anyone but you. Only you know how you feel inside. :>) Juanita Hello Cap. I am here today. What a rough go for you. Deep depression is some kind of hell. I have learned over the years that it waxes and wanes and rely on my rational cells to know that it will pass. I also rely on lexapro and in the past have relied on zoloft, prozac and even lithium. One of the simplest mental tricks I have is to just turn my focus outward, remember that there is a larger pattern out there (the evidence is everwhere) and then deliberately work to recognize it. I have the great good fortune of having a stunning landscape out my window, so as I said, the evidence is everywhere. I see that Cactus, Elmo and Ann are artists, so they will know what I mean by larger patterns. there must be others out there who work to remember that their livers are not the center of the universe? I did not mean that as a wise crack. I do feel like I have the weight of the world sitting in that place under my rib cage. Must fix a jug of green tea now. I have more to tell in a bit. Hang tough, bud. Kathy in Montana Thanks Katy, I am in Holland and there they did not offer me any ad's. My wife is also against. I am trying to manage without. The scary thing is that I just spoke to the assistant and she gave me the figure of my VL - 32million which is 6 times more than one year ago when Istarted with VL 5 million. I am following your advise - I have a great view from the office. CB thanks for the support > Hello Cap. I am here today. What a rough go for you. Deep depression is > some kind of hell. I have learned over the years that it waxes and wanes [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > tough, bud. > Kathy in Montana Don't let the viral load bother you. It's normal for the virus to rebound to levels much higher than before you started. They tend to stabilize at or near where they were before tx after a period of time. Aint no big deal. Elmo /////////// Thanks Katy, I am in Holland and there they did not offer me any ad's. My wife is also against. I am trying to manage without. The scary thing is that I just spoke to the assistant and she gave me the figure of my VL - 32million which is 6 times more than one year ago when Istarted with VL 5 million. I am following your advise - I have a great view from the office. CB thanks for the support "kjoh" <kjnotspam@notspammontana.com> wrote in message news:43065459bb51a14e223288749cb6ae71@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com... Hello Cap. I am here today. What a rough go for you. Deep depression is some kind of hell. I have learned over the years that it waxes and wanes and rely on my rational cells to know that it will pass. I also rely on lexapro and in the past have relied on zoloft, prozac and even lithium. One of the simplest mental tricks I have is to just turn my focus outward, remember that there is a larger pattern out there (the evidence is everwhere) and then deliberately work to recognize it. I have the great good fortune of having a stunning landscape out my window, so as I said, the evidence is everywhere. I see that Cactus, Elmo and Ann are artists, so they will know what I mean by larger patterns. there must be others out there who work to remember that their livers are not the center of the universe? I did not mean that as a wise crack. I do feel like I have the weight of the world sitting in that place under my rib cage. Must fix a jug of green tea now. I have more to tell in a bit. Hang tough, bud. Kathy in Montana http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum Would you be willing to think of doing some simple forms of meditation, perhaps? I think that if you can slow your reaction down just a bit, you can work on soothing your self you can use things like this http://photobucket.com/albums/y132/tum-tum-guitars/xx%20boat%20rides/ to help you visualize If you wonder about the symbols in the gallery, just be sure it was designed for restful and non threatening use, so perhaps you could say the ferry is more Siddhartha (Herman Hesse) than any other popular allegories to "ferrys or ferry rides" Thats a good book to read while listening to anything by Tangerine Dream, on low volume in your stereo earphones. There are lots of tools out there to build strength in the heart if you feel you need that. all the best, Cactus Jammies > Dear group, > Sadly: I have the virus back. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > first time that I had HCV. > Backo and.... om de gouden weg te lopen die voor altijd gaat, moedigt u uw sterk zuiver hart aan en het zal die weg rollend voor u, enkel het laten krijgen. The best my Dutch gets today. (thank you altavista babelfish translator) cactus jammies ////////////////////////// > Would you be willing to think of doing some simple forms of meditation, > perhaps? [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >> first time that I had HCV. >> Backo "Cactus Jammies" <not@joshuatree.nemor> <9lXDe.166483$on1.155510@clgrps13> : >and.... > >om de gouden weg te lopen die voor altijd gaat, moedigt u uw sterk zuiver >hart aan en het zal die weg rollend voor u, enkel het laten krijgen. >The best my Dutch gets today. (thank you altavista babelfish translator) to run the golden road that goes forever, encourage yourself your strong pure heart and it will roll this road in front of you, only to get it. this is literally translated, i think you best skip bablefish and just post your wishes in english ;) anja >cactus jammies >////////////////////////// [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >>> first time that I had HCV. >>> Backo -- mhm 35x6 smeeter 37(?) wsd40 we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars wilde thank you. at that point it seemed to me that a personal message would be appropriate and those words aren't necessarily appreciated by everyone. I could not get to his e-mail, otherwise I would have sent it there anyway. that's the reason. cactus jammies ////////////////////////////// > "Cactus Jammies" <not@joshuatree.nemor> > <9lXDe.166483$on1.155510@clgrps13> : [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars > wilde THANKS, Backo > thank you. at that point it seemed to me that a personal message would be > appropriate and those words aren't necessarily appreciated by everyone. I [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars > > wilde > Dear group, > Sadly: I have the virus back. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > first time that I had HCV. > Backo I'm really, really sorry to hear about it. If the depression doesn't lift, you may want to look into anti-d's, but I think you'll probably bounce back. Get good and mad at the dragon--I'll be right there with you! You are great, Thanks you very much. I am getting over it. Taking a long vacation 5 weeks - mountains, sea, beach with people I love and will try to forget the dragon for the moment. All the best. CB > > Dear group, > > Sadly: I have the virus back. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > you may want to look into anti-d's, but I think you'll probably bounce back. > Get good and mad at the dragon--I'll be right there with you! yes yes yes! that golden road does go on for ever! cactus jammies ///////////////////////////// You are great, Thanks you very much. I am getting over it. Taking a long vacation 5 weeks - mountains, sea, beach with people I love and will try to forget the dragon for the moment. All the best. CB > > Dear group, > > Sadly: I have the virus back. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > back. > Get good and mad at the dragon--I'll be right there with you! > You are great, > Thanks you very much. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > you may want to look into anti-d's, but I think you'll probably bounce back. > > Get good and mad at the dragon--I'll be right there with you! A long vacation with the people you love sounds like a great idea. Peace, Mary Ann >Dear group, >Sadly: I have the virus back. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >first time that I had HCV. >Backo My sincerest regrets at your relapse Captain. I wish tx had better success rates, particularly for gt 1s & 4s. After going through so much... I guess one good thing is your liver got a rest for 48 weeks and maybe healed some. Don't give up hope or lose that fighting spirit. Rest, regroup and talk over your options with your doctor. Eat healthy and take care of yourself. Sometimes it takes more than one stab at the Dragon to take it out and tomorrow is another day. Don Thanks a lot Don, I am getting over it. Taking a long vacation 5 weeks - mountain sea beach with people I love and will try to forget the dragon for the moment. All the best. CB > >Dear group, > >Sadly: I have the virus back. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Don man don't that just sucks some sh.t??? I know how you feel. I went into a nose dive depression and thought a bit too much about suicide till I got on cymbalta. So sorry to hear of your relapse man. SignatureRuss Visit Alaska @ http://www.tannersacre.com > Dear group, > Sadly: I have the virus back. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > first time that I had HCV. > Backo Thanks Russ, I am slowly getting over it. CB > man don't that just sucks some sh.t??? I know how you feel. I went into a > nose dive depression and thought a bit too much about suicide till I got on [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > first time that I had HCV. > > Backo "Captain Backo" <kapite@trus.com> <42df8fbd$0$20601$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> : >Dear group, >Sadly: I have the virus back. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >first time that I had HCV. >Backo hallo, sorry om dit te horen. ik heb hele goed resultaten door TCM en acapunctuur. kijk eens op deze website, hier vind je er wat uitleg over: http://www.tcma.nl/tcm.html het is een hele persoonlijke behandeling. prozac en dergelijke hebben bij mij nooit echt geholpen met mijn depressies en vermoeidheid. sinds ik TCM doe ben ik me veel bewuster van alles en heb als het ware rust gevonden. weg depressies, f.ck hcv, als je begrijpt wat ik bedoel. ik ga naar een chinese dokteres in antwerpen. heeft amsterdam zijn chinatown? in zo'n buurt heb je de meeste kans om er een te vinden. je mag me steeds mailen als je vragen hebt. (genetic_anja@coldmail.com en vervang cold door hot) vroeger dacht ik dat zo'n dingen allemaal mystical sh.t waren, maar reeds van de eerste keer dat ik ben geweest voor tuina massage en acapunctuur en mijn kruiden nam, voelde ik me als herboren. amazing zoals de engelsen zeggen. for those who are curious what i wrote: hello, sorry to hear this. i have good results with TCM and acupuncture. look at this website for more information: dutch website which most of you won't understand. it is a very personal treatment. prozac and alikes never worked very good for me with my depressions and fatigue. since getting treated with TCM and acu i am much more aware about everything and found inner peace. gone depressions. f.ck hcv, if you know what i mean. i see a chinese doctor in antwerp. does amsterdam has it's chinatown? in such an area you are most alike to find one. you can always mail me if you have any questions. there has been a time i considered stuff like that as 'mystical sh.t', but the first time i went there for tuina massage and acupuncture and cooked and drank my herbs i felt like reborn. amazing as the brits would say. regards en kop op anja -- mhm 35x6 smeeter 37(?) wsd40 we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars wilde Thank you very much anja. I am getting a rest on the beach and in the mountains. Will mail you later if you do not mind. Groetjes cb > "Captain Backo" <kapite@trus.com> <42df8fbd$0$20601$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> : > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars > wilde Hi Anja, WHat is the meaning of : mhm 35x6 smeeter 37(?) wsd40 -- CB > "Captain Backo" <kapite@trus.com> <42df8fbd$0$20601$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> : > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars > wilde "Captain Backo" <kapite@trus.com> <42e503f3$0$22889$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> : >Hi Anja, >WHat is the meaning of : >mhm 35x6 >smeeter 37(?) >wsd40 ah, it is my sig from the flonk. another newsgroup. it doesn't mean anything actually, just numbers given by other posters. sometimes you have to fill out a funny test to get a number, sometimes it is just given ;) veel plezier op je verlof en mail me gerust als je meer wil weten over hoe ik me erdoor sla :) -- mhm 35x6 smeeter 37(?) wsd40 we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars wilde not dwile flonking? if it is it is really an experience. did it in school many many many years ago. the arts one gang dimolished the engineering fraternity pledges, the sissies. ha ha ha ha http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-dwi1.htm here it exists in britain still. must be dutch origin, though, has to be ha ha ha cactus jammies //////////////////////////////// > "Captain Backo" <kapite@trus.com> > <42e503f3$0$22889$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> : [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars > wilde "Cactus Jammies" <not@joshuatree.nemor> <IPeFe.173770$on1.146883@clgrps13> : >not dwile flonking? if it is it is really an experience. did it in school >many many many years ago. the arts one gang dimolished the engineering >fraternity pledges, the sissies. ha ha ha ha > >http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-dwi1.htm i am going to post that link into the flonk . lol (it is a funny newsgroup. sometimes serious, most of the time wacked out. alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk) (don't get upset by the flamewars if you should subscribe.) we all thought it was an invented word, but it is actually used :) cool, thank you for the link <smep> regards to you and yours and thank you again anja, still gigling >here it exists in britain still. must be dutch origin, though, has to be > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> veel plezier op je verlof en mail me gerust als je meer wil weten over hoe >> ik me erdoor sla :) -- mhm 35x6 smeeter 37(?) wsd40 we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars wilde go for it. and watch the dwile, its easy to lose track of once you start the challenge. 8-) cj-------------- > "Cactus Jammies" <not@joshuatree.nemor> > <IPeFe.173770$on1.146883@clgrps13> : [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars > wilde Anja, send all my best to the inmates of your multiverse you got going there. I really have too many things going on right now, but thanks for the invite it certainly sounds fun to me. The key to beating the pledge engineers was to remember to count the flonks, cause they forgot as soon as the mead came out so they never had a chance.... ha ha ha (if I can remember correctly the terms) we also were fortified with Indica which has special powers of concentration. May have been some of that blueberry porch-climber wine, too. 8-) cactus jammies //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// > "Cactus Jammies" <not@joshuatree.nemor> > <IPeFe.173770$on1.146883@clgrps13> : [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars > wilde |
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