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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / July 2005

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Some new drugs that look great, and question

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cilibrar - 27 Jun 2005 00:03 GMT
Hi everybody,

About two weeks ago I tried to start a political action.  Looking at the
statistics, I see I had hundreds of people visit my site.  I am still
confused; how come so many heppers are more than willing to post in these
"support" forums, which nobody but other heppers reads, yet nobody is
willing to add their story or really anything to

http://hcvaction.org/

What's the deal?  You know, there are drugs in the pipeline that look good
right now, such as R278474
or TMC-125.  But I have a feeling, just like last time with pegylated
interferon, the FDA will put a big delay on approval of these meds.  These
new ones look like they could be in an interferon-free treatment that is so
far seeming totally non-toxic.  Why aren't more of us excited about this
possibility? Or doing anything to help make it happen?

It makes me sad to realize how many of us there are, and how few of us are
right now working towards this goal.  Is it asking too much to put your
name on a list and be counted with some sort of story?  I really cannot
see how the possibility of non-toxic treatment is not exciting to you.

I resent these "support" boards because they are more like playpens or
cages.  It's as if we are to speak our mind here where it won't affect the
general public's consciousness.  Or the 95% of heppers that are still
unaware they have HCV, drinkin' beers most likely.  What's wrong with
standing up this time?  It's prime time.

If you are one of those who will not stand up now, maybe you'd be so good
as to tell me why at cilibrar@gmail.com.  Or just reply to this message.
Or just lurk... and I guess then we all get our slow but just deserts now
as we have for the last 15 years.  You guys realize they just cloned HCV
for the first time in a lab 2 weeks ago, right?  This means research COULD
be ramped up 100-fold right now, if there was any will left at all.

Maybe there's something that can be done.  Would anybody be willing to
help with the action items on my site?

Best regards,

Rudi
buster - 27 Jun 2005 02:25 GMT
You raise a good point and I would be happy to write a letter. But I am a
statistic just like the rest of us. We are one of the what several million
they do talk about. I do believe funding for more research is needed and
that the poor shouldn't have to worry.

I am also concern about our borders being secure, social security, (excuse
me Bush supporter's) dumb a.s Bush, and our middle class folks being wipe
clean from this country.   Good luck let me know what I can do! Honestly
buster

> Hi everybody,
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> Rudi
burningdaylight - 27 Jun 2005 15:46 GMT
Hi Rudy,
I totally agree with you, however I have a few questions for you.
How are you going to get the general puplic and politicians to go to your
site?
How do I find a link to tell my story?
There are other groups for HCV awareness, that go to Washington DC and
fund raise, not sure that that is effective, so what is your plan?
I also believe that we should join together to help fight, but to get
anyone that's not effected to care is another thing.
If it wasn't for the big bucks to be made on this desease, do you thing
that there would be any reseach at all?
Thanks for fighting for us, I will join you if I think that it will be
useful.
Sue
Thomas Wagner - 27 Jun 2005 16:00 GMT
>About two weeks ago I tried to start a political action.  Looking at the
>statistics, I see I had hundreds of people visit my site.  I am still
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>What's the deal?

The deal is that you are an idealistic nobody making a lot of noise, but
none of that noise will lead anywhere. Collecting stories on a website
doesn't pay the bills for research, and doesn't push the FDA to approve
anything. Money does, and political connections do, but you don't seem
to have any of either. So what's your deal?

> You know, there are drugs in the pipeline that look good
>right now, such as R278474
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>far seeming totally non-toxic.  Why aren't more of us excited about this
>possibility? Or doing anything to help make it happen?

You won't make it happen, making noise won't make it happen. Investors
putting money into research with promising returns make it happen. There
was no big delay in the approval of Peg.

>It makes me sad to realize how many of us there are, and how few of us are
>right now working towards this goal.  Is it asking too much to put your
>name on a list and be counted with some sort of story?  I really cannot
>see how the possibility of non-toxic treatment is not exciting to you.

It is very exciting, but that sentence is a non sequitur. None of us can
work towards the goal of creating non-toxic treatments because none of
us are working at any of those companies. They make it happen. Your
little web site isn't even a blip on anyone's radar screen, and won't
contribute anything to those developments.

>I resent these "support" boards because they are more like playpens or
>cages.  It's as if we are to speak our mind here where it won't affect the
>general public's consciousness.  Or the 95% of heppers that are still
>unaware they have HCV, drinkin' beers most likely.  What's wrong with
>standing up this time?  It's prime time.

This "support board" as you call it has been an invaluable help for many
going through treatment. Your website will do... well, what exactly?

>If you are one of those who will not stand up now, maybe you'd be so good
>as to tell me why at cilibrar@gmail.com.  Or just reply to this message.
>Or just lurk... and I guess then we all get our slow but just deserts now
>as we have for the last 15 years.  You guys realize they just cloned HCV
>for the first time in a lab 2 weeks ago, right?  This means research COULD
>be ramped up 100-fold right now, if there was any will left at all.

The will is there, contrary to the statements on your site. A lot of
money is going into HCV research, and a lot of exciting things are
happening right now, all without your help and input. You're 15 years
too late.

Thomas
Signature

To reach me, complete my last name in the address.

elmoemerson@webtv.net - 28 Jun 2005 01:12 GMT
ahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!  
That's awfully blunt, Thomas.  You get 10 points for style!  :-)
Elmo
//////////
What's the deal?
The deal is that you are an idealistic nobody making a lot of noise, but
none of that noise will lead anywhere. Collecting stories on a website
doesn't pay the bills for research, and doesn't push the FDA to approve
anything. Money does, and political connections do, but you don't seem
to have any of either. So what's your deal?
  You know, there are drugs in the pipeline that look good right
now, such as R278474
or TMC-125. But I have a feeling, just like last time with pegylated
interferon, the FDA will put a big delay on approval of these meds.
These new ones look like they could be in an interferon-free treatment
that is so far seeming totally non-toxic. Why aren't more of us excited
about this possibility? Or doing anything to help make it happen?
You won't make it happen, making noise won't make it happen. Investors
putting money into research with promising returns make it happen. There
was no big delay in the approval of Peg.
It makes me sad to realize how many of us there are, and how few of us
are right now working towards this goal. Is it asking too much to put
your name on a list and be counted with some sort of story? I really
cannot see how the possibility of non-toxic treatment is not exciting to
you.
It is very exciting, but that sentence is a non sequitur. None of us can
work towards the goal of creating non-toxic treatments because none of
us are working at any of those companies. They make it happen. Your
little web site isn't even a blip on anyone's radar screen, and won't
contribute anything to those developments.
I resent these "support" boards because they are more like playpens or
cages. It's as if we are to speak our mind here where it won't affect
the general public's consciousness. Or the 95% of heppers that are still
unaware they have HCV, drinkin' beers most likely. What's wrong with
standing up this time? It's prime time.
This "support board" as you call it has been an invaluable help for many
going through treatment. Your website will do... well, what exactly?
If you are one of those who will not stand up now, maybe you'd be so
good as to tell me why at cilibrar@gmail.com. Or just reply to this
message. Or just lurk... and I guess then we all get our slow but just
deserts now as we have for the last 15 years. You guys realize they just
cloned HCV for the first time in a lab 2 weeks ago, right? This means
research COULD be ramped up 100-fold right now, if there was any will
left at all.
The will is there, contrary to the statements on your site. A lot of
money is going into HCV research, and a lot of exciting things are
happening right now, all without your help and input. You're 15 years
too late.
Thomas
Signature

To reach me, complete my last name in the address.  

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum

pajaritaflora - 28 Jun 2005 02:21 GMT
> Hi everybody,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> http://hcvaction.org/

Are you *dissing* our *support* forum?
What is your story?

> What's the deal?  You know, there are drugs in the pipeline that look good
> right now, such as R278474
> or TMC-125.  But I have a feeling,

...You have a *feeling*?

> just like last time with pegylated
> interferon, the FDA will put a big delay on approval of these meds.  These
> new ones look like they could be in an interferon-free treatment that is so
> far seeming totally non-toxic.  Why aren't more of us excited about this
> possibility? Or doing anything to help make it happen?

> It makes me sad to realize how many of us there are, and how few of us are
> right now working towards this goal.  Is it asking too much to put your
> name on a list and be counted with some sort of story?

I don't want to be counted with *some sort* of story. And you are
pressuring me again.

> I really cannot
> see how the possibility of non-toxic treatment is not exciting to you.
>
> I resent these "support" boards because they are more like playpens or
> cages.

Ya know what, I do know that I am doing treatment and am extremely
irritable at the moment, and may be overreacting but... I really wish
you could have taken care to not offend people instead you belittle us.
And then you want trust and support?

> It's as if we are to speak our mind here where it won't affect the
> general public's consciousness.  Or the 95% of heppers that are still
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Rudi

Rudi , I do apologize for sounding too nasty. These are the concerns I
have that you asked for. ....your post didn't create a fuzzy feeling.

sincerely,
Mary Ann
burningdaylight - 28 Jun 2005 02:52 GMT
I have another question. Who gets the money that you are trying to collect?
cilibrar - 21 Jul 2005 21:51 GMT
Sorry to sound nasty everybody.  I am a little miffed myself though; it
seems the most active people are those like me who have already lost loved
ones.  Or Pat Pruitt.  See her story on my website.  After losing both
parents to HCV a few years back, I kick myself for not starting this
effort ten years earlier.

I feel we are all a bit too concerned about interpersonal emotional
exchanges here and general emotional support and not enough concerned with
taking our rightful power and place in politics and effective action.  To
me the high volume of support-type messages is wasted energy because it
doesn't lead to lasting change on as large a scale as effection action
would.

I noticed a couple of you question my credentials.  I am a scientist, and
I have a paper up in a reknowned bio-informatics conference this year,
WABI 2005:
http://www.lsi.upc.edu/~algo05/?cmd=program
If you look at my research homepage,
http://cilibrar.com/
you can see I have a (short, but lively!) history of work that combines
machine learning with biology and have done some work with viral genomes.
If you review the website I mentioned,
http://hcvaction.org/
you can find the exact reasons I claim to believe there are great drugs
possible in the pipeline.  For instance, there is a large
identically-shaped reverse-transcriptase system in HIV and HCV.  This has
been shown conclusively using X-ray crystalography.  There are drugs that
already target this region of HIV and have been shown effective, thus it's
highly likely the same drugs work on HCV.  And they are non-toxic at least
to mice so far.

I also remember reading one of the above replies claiming I had no
political connections.  This is simply not true; just a few days ago I had
a phonecall with Auren Hoffman, who you can see here shaking hands with GW
Bush on more than one occasion:

http://summation.typepad.com/
(click the photos link on the left)

A lot of people consider Auren one of the most connected people in the
world, and he is certainly the most connected person I have ever spoken
with.

I don't mean to sound *too* rude, but I do mean to wake people up however
I can to save their lives.
I haven't found any other way to do it and I apologize for not being more
creative here.
I am dying slowly like most all of you and I am convinced we can push our
governments to do better and we are at a "tipping point" right now.  It
only takes a little effort.  I have gotten feedback from more than a 6
nations already.

I have a team of volunteers helping me out in the USA and some people here
in Europe.  If you just google my name you can see around 4800 hits, about
1/3 of which are HCV related and the rest science related.  I am going to
take this as far as I can because my life, and 200 million others like
yourselves, depends on it!!!  Whether you guys are nice or mean to me does
not really matter!  I am just here to try to get help.  Personal manners
and strife are immaterial to the greater good, which is oh! so sweet
life.

We have listed now in the donations section of the website everything we
have spent money on.  So far this is less than $200 out of more than $900
donated.  Soon, once our papers are filed and our official Treasurer is
set up with the right software, we will put up for public display an
itemized account of all spending.  Even now I am throwing in hundreds of
dollars of my own money on test-marketting campaigns.

I understand it may be hard for you all to believe that somebody with some
power really is fighting for us all here as hard as he absolutely can.
Because  as far as I can tell almost every politician or others have more
or less turned away and ignored our needs.   But after losing both my
parents and getting my meds stopped by the FDA, I am 100% committed to
fighting this unjust system and solving the problem for us.  I went to
Caltech, I have connections with money and influence, like Venky Ganesan,
a manager of a global venture capital firm and a dormitory-mate of mine.
But I do not have enough connections nor power without your help.
Seriously, I am begging you all for your help.  Please help me save our
lives by emailing more material my way or helping me promote this thing.

To life, continued,

Rudi
Gordo Mondragon - 21 Jul 2005 23:08 GMT
I'm sorry that the participants of this newsgroup are not responding in
a way that you feel meets your needs.  As someone who benefitted greatly
during treatment from the "interpersonal emotional exchanges" - which
were any but "wasted energy" - I have to say that you'd get a lot
further if you didn't dismiss it so selfishly.

If you knew anything about the history of HIV and AIDs in the US you'd
know that first and foremost people rallied around taking care of the
people who were sick.  Support.  Caring.  Working to get people through
difficult treatments.  If you dismiss that you dismiss the heart of what
you're trying to do.

It was after those networks and services were in place that people
started to get pissed off -  resulting in groups like ACT UP that
radically changed how drugs were tested and approved and brought to
market.

As far as your credentials, you're clearly an experienced software
engineer and computer scientist.  I don't see anything in your papers or
CV that says anything about biology or machine learning or viral
genomes.  Your WABI paper looks interesting but is more about trolling
through the biological data structure that is DNA than about infectious
disease science.  

It's not a good sign, I think, that you would try to pass off your
interesting computational work as actually that of a biological
scientist.  Do you think it lends you more credibility?

You're asking for a donation to a website that doesn't say what the
money is going to be used for except to build the website.  I make a lot
of donations to a lot of different causes and I'd never give money away
based on that little information.

It's just not clear what you want.

Gordo

In article
<a211b098064d3f9ebb016a8d25ee4213@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com>,

> Sorry to sound nasty everybody.  I am a little miffed myself though; it
> seems the most active people are those like me who have already lost loved
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
>
> Rudi
kjoh - 22 Jul 2005 00:06 GMT
Rudy you have pulled together something truly admirable.  For some of here
the best and only work we can do is to post supportive messages to each
other and then drag ourselves to our doctors and offer help by trying to
articulate what is happening to us.  Best wishes to you.  You have my
humble and feeble support.

Kathy
cilibrar - 22 Jul 2005 09:08 GMT
It's a nice thought (that we are all already pushing at 100%) but I don't
believe this is our best.  I would gladly trade some humility for some
gall here.  What I've got is a lot of people here more than willing to
make posts that are really not supportive of me or my effort, but nobody
willing to post something in email to me that helps to build my website.

Why is that?  I think this is all we are in the habit of doing.  Not all
we *can* do.

Doc Elmo, your website has been great for years and I really appreciate
your doing it.  Certainly the most hilarious website I have ever come
across on HCV with the most memorable pics online.

Cheers

Rudi
Gordo Mondragon - 22 Jul 2005 12:50 GMT
In article
<f30e41935911bb6e92420f25fbfda252@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com>,

> It's a nice thought (that we are all already pushing at 100%) but I don't
> believe this is our best.  I would gladly trade some humility for some
> gall here.  What I've got is a lot of people here more than willing to
> make posts that are really not supportive of me or my effort, but nobody
> willing to post something in email to me that helps to build my website.

But Rudi, what is your effort?  I read over all your pages and it's just
not clear.  A generalized "more attention to HCV science" is a good
thing to say but other than a website you're not offering anything.  In
that context, why should people make any effort to meet your needs when
they don't know what they are?

Gordo
cilibrar - 22 Jul 2005 18:00 GMT
Your critical points are well-taken Gordo.  You're right the end-goal is
not 100% clear.  But have you had a look at the "politicians" section?
There I think I fairly well spell out some serious problems.  Not the
least of which is that the financial incentives are upside-down right now
in treating this disease.  That is, the next batch of drugs will probably
be much cheaper than the current ones; thus, there is big money lobbying
for less research towards these new drugs.  My initial goals are simple:
raising awareness and getting more people tested.  Because I feel like the
current situation, with 95% of HCV+ people not knowing they have it, is a
lot of wasted potential.  It's a test that's getting cheaper each year and
people should be getting it in droves.  If they just knew there would be
more support for all of us.  Not to mention many would stop drinking
alcohol for their own good.  I think also a major goal of mine is to
adjust IP law to take our needs into consideration, as has already been
done with Windows and HIV medicines in some countries and some cases.
There is legislation right now, like HR 417, that offers alternative
models that would still fund research but would eliminate the need to
restrict access to medications to the very wealthy.  This is in the
politicians section and is one viable direction to go right now.  In a
similar vein, I don't understand how come the epidemic rages on in America
yet I keep getting these copyright restrictions for the basic source
information.  It's outrageous.  We spend tax dollars to fund much of this
research, it should be publicly available data, but you can see that most
of it is locked up by publishers that literally provide less and less
service each year.  As I scientist I have witnessed the gradual transition
from the old way of journal publishing where they actually typeset your
article for you and proofread it to the new way, where now we use LaTeX
and other tools to essentially do all the job for the publishers.
Similarly, the journals send out articles for review to people like me who
are obliged to do it for free.  It's crazy that they then get to
appropriate the results of our good works.  The obvious solution is
simple: taxpayer funded research must be free.  This is the Open Science
initiative and is supported by the UN.  Another obvious improvement in my
mind is substantially more research funding for HCV. Towards new more
non-toxic meds like those I mentioned on my website.  The budget for this
is terribly low and it seems to be due to the upside-down profit
incentive.  But with increasing awareness (and by lowering that 95% don't
know it number through testing) we can definately push for equal funding
one year for HCV as HIV as the death rates are similar.  Just one year of
equitable treatment would, in my best estimation, result in a cure.  I
think this is likely because of the recent cloning advancement and for the
reasons shown on my website.

I feel like we have been manipulated into feeling ashamed and being
therefore rather quiet about our status as HCV+.  I think those
risk-factor quizes really put you into a defensive, stigmatized frame of
mind.  And I think the general level of high fear in America right now is
really working against us.

To me the solution is essentially de-stigmatization.  I am distigmatizing
it.  By having those tee-shirts for order.  Soon we will have better
designs from real artists, but already these ugly ones are selling.  I
have been contacting a lot of the old people from the HIV movement 15
years ago for advice and support and a lot of medical big names.  I've
heard back from Noam Chomsky more than once.  And there's one hit already
in Google News on this issue, and I have a committment from a Reuters
reporter to do another article soon.

I apologize for not having a more exact plan of how the money will be
used.  If I get 5-10 grand money I have somebody I can hire in San
Francisco to really take this seriously as a fulltime job.  If not this
effort will still continue but on a slower part-time basis.  I feel rushed
and money can accelerate this thing but even with no additional money at
all there is no chance the effort will not continue because already I can
afford to keep my server up for years on my own savings.  And I am happy
to file FOIA requests and keep promoting the site in very many different
ways until I find the strategies that work.  I've already determined from
my Google adwords campaign statistics that the celebrities (like Pam
Anderson) are highly effective at bringing people to the site.  Once the
papers are fully taken care of for 501c(3) status I can start using her
name again as well as a few other celebs.  And I have heard from one guy,
named Mel who was sadly in the hospital when he emailed me, that he got
commitments from some rockstars to do an HCV rock and roll hall of fame
concert.  Unfortunately he never told me the names and I don't even know
if Mel is still alive because I never heard back from him after the first
email.

But I keep bringing this subject up and it's actually quite common that
when I make the first move others wind up responding saying "my grandma
had HCV" or "my friend died of HCV" ... it's just not talked about enough
yet.  This is what I am trying to change right now by any means necessary.
I'm still testing to figure out how to best do this effectively.

I don't really need your money Gordo I think I would much rather have your
critical thinking skills on my side or your writing skills.  Anything you
can do to contribute would be much appreciated as your comments have stood
out here to me as very thoughtful.  Thanks for your attention,

Rudi
Jim Klein - 24 Jul 2005 09:08 GMT
>You're right the end-goal is not 100% clear.

The end-goal, at least with regard to HepC, is be simple and 100% clear--the
chemicals that stop the viral action, and the ability to manufacture them.
There are 1000 other related goals and they're important, but there's only
one "end-goal."

>But have you had a look at millenniacians" section?
> There I think I fairly well spell out some serious problems.

I didn't get to that yet, but no matter.  Every "politicians" section on ANY
topic will be the same!

> Not the
> least of which is that the financial incentives are upside-down right now
> in treating this disease.

False.  This is your single biggest error IMO.

> That is, the next batch of drugs will probably
> be much cheaper than the current ones;

Maybe so, but that's just a side benefit.  The fact is that the financial
incentives are not only sufficient, but perhaps the greatest they've ever
been for any one single, particular goal.

Nobody can ask for any more than that and I for one think it's THE best
thing going for everyone here, at least on the medical front.

> thus, there is big money lobbying
> for less research towards these new drugs.

Well sure, but that's not "financial incentive;" that's just trying to
control how some particular money is spent.

The actual financial incentive is the sum total of wealth that's willing to
be spent to slay the dragon.  And that's a mighty big number, far far
greater than the number of confiscated dollars doled out by (and to) the
powers that be.

> My initial goals are simple:
> raising awareness and getting more people tested.

Yeahbut you'll get so involved with those two goals that you'll never get to
the subsequent goals.  Maybe.

I guess there's nothing wrong with those goals--your goals are whatever you
choose, of course--but I'll bet that if you took a poll of heppers, neither
of those would fall number one for most.

> Because I feel like the
> current situation, with 95% of HCV+ people not knowing they have it,

What's that, worldwide or something?  I heard years ago that it was supposed
to be 75%, at least for Americans, and I figure that number must've
declined over the recent past.

> is a lot of wasted potential.

OF WHAT?  You seem to be of the opinion that it's the number of people on a
wagon that makes it go.  But of course, it's the strength of the horses.
IMO the "potential" with which you ought to be concerned, is the potential
of brilliant scientists to come up with the answers.

Yes, I understand your point.  In this world, with the bucks doled out by
Govco, it's necessary to appeal to Govco to get the bucks doled out where
you wish.  And so you're saying that with enough public pressure, enough
bucks will get doled in the right direction and a cure will manifest.

There are two problems (at least!) with that theory.  First you have the
omnipresent problem that the way the bucks get doled out has little to do
with what the public wants.  The dolers decide, not the dolees.

And then, even if you do get the bucks, you'll end up with more studies like
the one I read recently that concluded that there are "serious quality of
life" problems for people with Hep C.  Wow...what an eye-opener that was!

And get this--those problems are worse for those who don't get a SVR or
relapse, than for those who stay virus-free.  Who would've guessed, eh?

That's where your "public money" goes, rather than to some genius
bioengineer in Peoria.  There and to researchers, many of whom don't give a
rat's a.s about the health of their "volunteers"...chosen not because of
the benefit they might receive, but because of the benefit they can offer
to the doctor's particular study.

Naturally, there is plenty of good and bad to go around.  Everyone's
different, after all, even doctors.  It's still the case that there are
some rotten shenanigans going on and appeals to the ultimate cause--the
foolish fist of Govco--are not likely to slow them down.

> It's a test that's getting cheaper each year and
> people should be getting it in droves.  If they just knew there would be
> more support for all of us.

What makes you think that?  You don't know the end result of "droves" of
people suddenly turning up with a serious health problem.  There's no way
of knowing such a thing and you don't really know if it'll make a cure one
day closer, or ten years farther out.

For instance, do you understand the enormous "financial incentive" of the
Social Security system, that people not live too long?  What do you suppose
will overcome that...everyone's good wishes?  There are other systemic
disincentives working against heppers too;  luckily none of them are even
close IMO to trumping the immense financial advantage working in their
favor.  There are plenty of scientists out there who know that a ton of
money is waiting to be made, by those who can find and implement the
necessary solutions.

Thank goodness, I say.

> Not to mention many would stop drinking
> alcohol for their own good.  I think also a major goal of mine is to
> adjust IP law to take our needs into consideration, as has already been
> done with Windows and HIV medicines in some countries and some cases.

Tell you what, Rudi.  You take a look at those Govco studies and compare
them with the work that guys like Henry Ford or Thomas Edison did in their
day.  Then come back and tell me which sort of minds you'd prefer were
working on slaying the dragon.

You can have all the scientists who are working for so lofty a goal as the
"public good."  Give me the ones who want to get stinking rich for finding
the right answers, and we'll see which group has the cure first.

> There is legislation right now, like HR 417, that offers alternative
> models that would still fund research but would eliminate the need to
> restrict access to medications to the very wealthy.

Firstly, there won't be any need to "restrict access," since the ultimate
answers will be pretty straightforward in genetic engineering terms.

But if there is an access problem, do you really believe the government will
be able to more efficiently distribute the limited resources, than the
private market?  Can you say "flu vaccine"?

What the hell do you think creates limited non-natural resources, anyway?
Think about that for a minute.

> This is in the
> politicians section and is one viable direction to go right now.

Yeah, okay...turn it into a fight.  You fight with the kagillion other
groups looking for their share of the pie and then fight with the
researchers (or is it the grant writers?) to decide how it's spent.

And then when you're all done, go back to the table to fight about how it
ought to be distributed.

Too much fighting.  I say just throw some money as some actually relevant
scientists, and beg them to become filthy rich with their discoveries.

Now THAT'S the American way!  Or at least it used to be.

> In a
> similar vein, I don't understand how come the epidemic rages on in America
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> of it is locked up by publishers that literally provide less and less
> service each year.

There are many issues tied up with this, not just IP rights.  It's something
that deserves change, but I'm guessing most people around here aren't so
concerned with such massive millennial changes for the planet.

And even if they are, putting medical publishers out of business is probably
not a really wise first step.

> As I scientist I have witnessed the gradual transition
> from the old way of journal publishing where they actually typeset your
> article for you and proofread it to the new way, where now we use LaTeX
> and other tools to essentially do all the job for the publishers.

Are you trying to accomplish something, or merely filing a job grievance?

> Similarly, the journals send out articles for review to people like me who
> are obliged to do it for free.  It's crazy that they then get to
> appropriate the results of our good works.  The obvious solution is
> simple: taxpayer funded research must be free.  This is the Open Science
> initiative and is supported by the UN.

Go for it, Rudi, but IMO the UN is about the last place you should look for
something to further life.

I don't understand why you're a scientist who wants to play politics, in
order that politicians will hopefully play science.  Why not let the
scientists do what they do best---be scientists, and let the politicians do
what they do best---keep eating filet and lobster?

[Ever notice that skinny politicians are harder to come by, these days?]

> Another obvious improvement in my
> mind is substantially more research funding for HCV. Towards new more
> non-toxic meds like those I mentioned on my website.  The budget for this
> is terribly low and it seems to be due to the upside-down profit
> incentive.

Feh.  As I've already explained, the "profit incentive" for finding a cure
is enormous---much larger than any Govco program could possibly be.

If the budget is low, it's low because the current motivations of the
current pull-peddlers make it low.  What you don't get is that making it
high, won't get you what you want.  The War on Poverty started in the '60s,
the War on Drugs became a high priority back in the '70s and '80s, AIDS in
the '90s, terrorism just 4 years ago.

So how well have these priorities been "fixed," now that they're so high?

> But with increasing awareness (and by lowering that 95% don't
> know it number through testing) we can definately push for equal funding
> one year for HCV as HIV as the death rates are similar.  Just one year of
> equitable treatment would, in my best estimation, result in a cure.

Pish-tosh.  The problem isn't one of "equitable treatment," though
admittedly that would be a nice touch.  The problem, like all problems in
the social world, has to do with too much control, too much regulation and
not enough freedom.

If that means freedom for some geek to get super-rich for cracking the
relevant codes, then so be it.  CJ may not like the theory, but he'll love
the results!

> I
> think this is likely because of the recent cloning advancement and for the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> mind.  And I think the general level of high fear in America right now is
> really working against us.

That's working against nearly everything these days.  Fear may be the most
common motivator like Dr. Phil says, but it's a lousy one nonetheless.

> To me the solution is essentially de-stigmatization.  I am distigmatizing
> it.  By having those tee-shirts for order.  Soon we will have better
> designs from real artists, but already these ugly ones are selling.  I
> have been contacting a lot of the old people from the HIV movement 15
> years ago for advice and support and a lot of medical big names.  I've
> heard back from Noam Chomsky more than once.

That's great.  If we ever need a linguistic study of HepC, or a tilted view
of its political ramifications, we'll know just where to look.  Meanwhile
I'd rather you'd field a call from somebody that knows something about
protease inhibitors and then report back what HE says.

> And there's one hit already
> in Google News on this issue, and I have a committment from a Reuters
> reporter to do another article soon.

Don't get me wrong; I think publicity is a great thing generally.  There's
nothing wrong with spreading the word, but in these crazy times you never
know exactly what the unintended consequences might be.

That doesn't mean it's a bad thing, but it does mean that it's probably not
where your focus can best be utilized.  Especially if you're a scientist
with knowledge relevant to HepC.


> I apologize for not having a more exact plan of how the money will be
> used.  If I get 5-10 grand money I have somebody I can hire in San
> Francisco to really take this seriously as a fulltime job.

AS WHAT??  You're doing too much "figuring" IMO, when research and work are
the real answers.  You're already doing what I charged earlier, being
distracted by the derivative issues of publicity and Govco funding.  The
goal here is not to have a cause, but to eliminate that which created the
cause in the first place.

[snip]

> But I keep bringing this subject up and it's actually quite common that
> when I make the first move others wind up responding saying "my grandma
> had HCV" or "my friend died of HCV" ...

Well, duh.  Whether it's 2% or 4% or whatever, everyone knows plenty of
people who are affected or will be affected.

>it's just not talked about enough yet.  This is what I am trying to change
>right now by any means necessary.
>I'm still testing to figure out how to best do this effectively.

I'd rather see you effectively figure out how to make HepC something that's
not talked about at all, except when we recall our distant memories.

> I don't really need your money Gordo I think I would much rather have your
> critical thinking skills on my side or your writing skills.  Anything you
> can do to contribute would be much appreciated as your comments have stood
> out here to me as very thoughtful.  Thanks for your attention,

Yeah well, personally I'd prefer Gordo continues doing exactly as he has,
paying as much attention as possible to as many detailed facts as possible.
As far as I'm concerned, every minute that he--or I or you or anyone
else--spends focusing on the publicity and funding of HepC, is a minute
lost of fact-gathering.

If it's support that you believe is needed, then you can rest assured that
there'll probably never be another support group like this one.  Yet
somehow you feel slighted or something about the support that goes on here,
as if it would be more useful focused on your priorities.  That doesn't
make sense to me for many reasons, and causes me to suspect your actual
motives.

That's not an accusation, but I'm always suspicious when someone purports to
be representing the "greater good," while simultaneously knocking the
actual good that goes on individual to individual.  For the moment, I'll
assume it's just some sort of misguided philosophy on your part.

Maybe do a poll and find out whether folks on this board would rather have
the comfort they've gained from others here, or the knowledge that you
talked on the phone with some official from the CDC.  Maybe that's why
you've gotten some of the responses you have.

Please don't think I think you're doing anything wrong.  I do think you're
awfully misguided in believing that "public support" could somehow be more
valuable than the support offered here, but I wouldn't call that "wrong"
really.  I just think it's a serious misunderstanding of what support is
all about.

Anyway...whatever your personal goals are, I hope you have success in
attaining them.  Just remember, be careful what you wish for.

jk
Cactus Jammies - 22 Jul 2005 12:54 GMT
well Rudi, I guess you will have to look other places for your focussed
lobby group for the time being, anyhow.  This is a sick and caring  house.
Wipe your feet at the door if you want to come in.

8-)

cactus jammies
////////////////////////////////////////////
> It's a nice thought (that we are all already pushing at 100%) but I don't
> believe this is our best.  I would gladly trade some humility for some
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Rudi
Cody - 22 Jul 2005 13:06 GMT
> Wipe your feet at the door if you want to come in.
>
> 8-)
>
> cactus jammies

You mean fart in someone's face before you come in, now don't you?

Signature

Cody

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

Cactus Jammies - 22 Jul 2005 13:18 GMT
what ever turns your crank, but I thought you already new that.

cactus jammies
///////////////////////////////////////

>> Wipe your feet at the door if you want to come in.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> You mean fart in someone's face before you come in, now don't you?
Cody - 22 Jul 2005 13:33 GMT
No, that turns your In Group headed up by the Fart Doctor, Elmo, crank.

Signature

Cody

Use the Reply to Sender feature of your news reader program to email me.
Utiliza Responder al Remitente para mandarme un mail.

> what ever turns your crank, but I thought you already new that.
>
> cactus jammies
> ///////////////////////////////////////

>>> Wipe your feet at the door if you want to come in.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>> You mean fart in someone's face before you come in, now don't you?
Cactus Jammies - 22 Jul 2005 13:42 GMT
whatever.  the door is ajar...

cactus jammies
////////////////////////////
> No, that turns your In Group headed up by the Fart Doctor, Elmo, crank.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>>
>>> You mean fart in someone's face before you come in, now don't you?
kjoh - 22 Jul 2005 17:10 GMT
Well alright Rudi.  I may have something to offer you one day.  Ill think
on what I might say if i were to tell my story.  This newsgroup is many
things.  Storytelling is one of them.  Do any of you keep a personal
archive of these messages?

Carry on wayward son
Kathy
JV - 22 Jul 2005 00:21 GMT
Good post Gordo                Juanita
elmoemerson@webtv.net - 22 Jul 2005 03:20 GMT
Go suck an egg, Rudi!!  Yes, this is a support group, not a political
action forum. If you don't like that, take a hike.  Your credentials are
impressive....ahahahahahahahahah!!!!!
Elmo

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum
Incantatrix - 22 Jul 2005 16:40 GMT
elmoemerson@webtv.net      <16855-42E057F1-104@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> :


>Go suck an egg, Rudi!!  Yes, this is a support group, not a political
>action forum. If you don't like that, take a hike.  Your credentials are
>impressive....ahahahahahahahahah!!!!!
>Elmo

http://wiki.hcvaction.org/hcvact/published/Rudi+Cilibrasi
this guy has lost both his parents to HCV+ and has a bad liver himself. tx failed him.
it is good to see he is making something of his life by studying instead of whining about guitars
and farts.
i don't see what's wrong trying to find people to take political action about HCV in a hepatitis
support group. especially for the americans who post here, with the lousy social benefit system
overthere.

what an a.shole you can be elmo
i don't know what i dislike most: untolerant hillbillies or pseudo boeddhists.

--  
mhm 35x6
smeeter 37(?)
wsd40

we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars
wilde
Gordo Mondragon - 22 Jul 2005 19:51 GMT
[...]

> i don't see what's wrong trying to find people to take political action about
> HCV in a hepatitis
> support group.

Well, for starters, posting to a support group that there are far too
many supportive messages being posted is a bone-headed thing to do.

Nothing wrong with asking people to participate, to tell them what he's
doing, but to do it in the context of saying how they're wasting time
because they're not on his agenda - one which he admits is not
well-formed - isn't going to win any converts.

My opinion, at least.

Gordo
cilibrar - 22 Jul 2005 20:19 GMT
I do think there is a certain element of preaching to the choir going on in
these support groups.  If only because (I expect) the people that really
need to be converted don't come into these message boards.  That's why I
put those links to personal stories on my front page.  I'd love to have so
many that I can have a random new assortment of personal stories each time
somebody loads the page dynamically generated.  This would give the site
some interest.  I think it's clear to everybody that we need more
visibility outside the community that already knows they are HCV+ and I
had hoped this first goal was at least clear enough.  Gordo, you have 3
very well written criticisms for me.  Do you have something positive for
me to put on my site?  To add content + visibility + interest.  I think
that would be awesome.  Cheers,

Rudi
Cactus Jammies - 22 Jul 2005 20:55 GMT
"Incantatrix"
...say did I miss it, or did you explain what you're doing here in the first
place?  You're going to now get the who are you and what is your vl all the
rest of it questions.  As for elmo's most recent outburst, we have a parade
of detachted experts passing through this list all the time and there is a
level of caution otherwise people's emotions can get really whipped around.
You never said who you were but judging from your tag I might be able to
call you Wendy and get away with that.  Do advise. please.
8-)
oh,,,and every cross-phase orchestra absolutely needs a first class farter
and Elmo has constantly hit those notes needed.  The whole bunchaya doesn't
have to go to the opera with the others, its your choice.  Some devout
linear thinkers would not be easy fits in this orchestra.

cactus jammies
////////////////////////////////////////////////

> elmoemerson@webtv.net
> <16855-42E057F1-104@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> :
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars
> wilde
Incantatrix - 22 Jul 2005 21:37 GMT
"Cactus Jammies" <not@joshuatree.nemor>      <jbcEe.99834$wr.12771@clgrps12> :


>"Incantatrix"
>...say did I miss it, or did you explain what you're doing here in the first
>place?  

i have hepatitis and have been posting here since 1998 IIRC. i don't post often anymore as i have
other things to take care of in life. when someone needs my support i am there for them with an
encouraging email or post, ask mom if you don't believe me.

>You're going to now get the who are you and what is your vl all the
>rest of it questions.

my viral load is 2.200.000 IU/ml , 6.33 log IU/ml at last test
900.000 IU/ml in 1997
genotype 2a/2c
had this virus for about 20/25 years, liver in excellent condition still
alt and ast fluctuate
i do TCM and acupuncture to combat the fatigue - with the blessing of my hepatologist. he prefers
doing that than ruining a healthy liver and take the risks of other side effects like a messed up
thyroid. and it works well, thank you.

>As for elmo's most recent outburst,

i know who elmo is, i am one of the monkey's on his webpage.
that doesn't mean i have to agree with what i found a pretty rude post against a fellow hepC
sufferer. i am not an arselicking c.nt.
i never interfere with the bitchslapping between him and cody, because it isn't worth it, both ways.

>we have a parade
>of detachted experts passing through this list all the time and there is a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Do advise. please.
>8-)

just call me cuntess. i know this newsgroup and smdh. and most of the oldtimers.
and much longer than you, not that that matters.


>oh,,,and every cross-phase orchestra absolutely needs a first class farter
>and Elmo has constantly hit those notes needed.  The whole bunchaya doesn't
>have to go to the opera with the others, its your choice.  Some devout
>linear thinkers would not be easy fits in this orchestra.

i don't need to fit in any orchestra. i am an individual. i don't fart my opinions, i very rarely
vent them.
as i did by replying to elmo in this public forum.

regards

>cactus jammies
>////////////////////////////////////////////////
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>> we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars
>> wilde

--  
mhm 35x6
smeeter 37(?)
wsd40

we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars
wilde
Cactus Jammies - 22 Jul 2005 22:49 GMT
ok sorry to be responding in such a hard assed way.  I won't make any
apologies for the behaviour because it was so out of line and I couldn't
justify any of it.  I appreciate your picking up the personalization of the
Dutch language for our friend, CB.  I know that in the past that use of
localized English language vocabulary and usage has caused mistaken
assumptions in others, (like what is a jumper or a bonnet, for instance) and
of course our there various european friends, as well who sometimes request
translation or openly wonder if the language difference is making them miss
stuff in dialogue.

oh,  doesn't have to be an orchestra, either.

cheers

cactus jammies
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
> "Cactus Jammies" <not@joshuatree.nemor>
> <jbcEe.99834$wr.12771@clgrps12> :
[quoted text clipped - 103 lines]
> we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars
> wilde
elmoemerson@webtv.net - 23 Jul 2005 02:22 GMT


Go suck an egg, Rudi!! Yes, this is a support group, not a political
action forum. If you don't like that, take a hike. Your credentials are
impressive....ahahahahahahahahah!!!!!
Elmo
http://wiki.hcvaction.org/hcvact/published/Rudi+Cilibrasi this guy has
lost both his parents to HCV+ and has a bad liver himself. tx failed
him. it is good to see he is making something of his life by studying
instead of whining about guitars and farts.
i don't see what's wrong trying to find people to take political action
about HCV in a hepatitis support group. especially for the americans who
post here, with the lousy social benefit system overthere.
what an a.shole you can be elmo
i don't know what i dislike most: untolerant hillbillies or pseudo
boeddhists. ////////////
Whining guitars and farts, eh?  Sounds like an old country tune.  I feel
bad for the guy if indeed he did lose both his parents to hcv and
treatment failed him.  He's got to be one of a kind in that regard.
Personally, I don't believe his story....but what the hell.  The dipshit
walked in and immediately expected us to jump to and become hcv
activists, contributing to his web site.  Perhaps he'd have gotten some
of us on his side if he'd approached us with something other than
demands and put downs.  f.ck him and his web site.  Gee.... and I used
to like you.  Sorry your pic got lost and never made it to the FA.  
Elmo
(hillbilly guitar pickin' redneck)

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum
elmoemerson@webtv.net - 23 Jul 2005 15:18 GMT
i don't see what's wrong trying to find people to take political action
about HCV in a hepatitis support group. especially for the americans who
post here, with the lousy social benefit system overthere.
/////////
Yes, our medical benefit system isn't socialized.  I've noticed from
those posting here who live in countries that have socialized their
medical care, that even tho medical care may free, getting the proper
drugs to fight the dragon isn't always possible.  SVR rates are lower in
those countries because they don't offer drugs such as Procrit or
Neupogen to combat sides. They instead resort to dose reductions or
stopping tx altogether.  I'm grateful I live in the USA and was offered
those drugs, otherwise I probably would never have made it to the end of
the line or achieved SVR.  There are also free drug programs for those
who can't afford them.  In the UK, you can't even get tx unless you have
a certain amount of liver damage.  USA rocks!!!!
Elmo
(have a nice day, Anja)

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum
Incantatrix - 23 Jul 2005 19:16 GMT
elmoemerson@webtv.net      <8507-42E251BA-267@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net> :


>i don't see what's wrong trying to find people to take political action
>about HCV in a hepatitis support group. especially for the americans who
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>those drugs, otherwise I probably would never have made it to the end of
>the line or achieved SVR.

the tendency on tx in belgium is that the virus hasn't to be killed at all costs.
( i don't know about the rest of europe, each country here has it's own laws and own regimen of
social security system)
if one however would have great liver damage and tx is the only option i am sure they would give
someone the procrit or neupogen they need to be able to continue and get the so wanted SVR. it just
isn't common here.
my hepatologist even refuses to put me on tx as i have no liver problems and tx could cause more
damage to the system than benefits. (despite of getting rid of the virus. i don't want a f.cked up
thyroid for example; or the auto immune diseases my ex has since having been on tx) he is very
honest about stuff like that, which i find very important.

> There are also free drug programs for those
>who can't afford them.  

we don't need free drug programs here, the social security system is for everyone's benefit, rich or
poor.
i heard many other stories about people living in the us of a who needed medication or go to see a
doctor or dentist.

>In the UK, you can't even get tx unless you have
>a certain amount of liver damage.

which is very logical. see why i am not treated, even though i do have fluctuating alt and ast
levels. in some cases the cure is worse than the disease, especially if you don't have any liver
damage an amount of years after infection. (20 / 25 years ago in my case)

> USA rocks!!!!

you have to live there, that's your opinion.

>Elmo
>(have a nice day, Anja)

thank you , hope you farted well through the morning ;)

regards

PS don't think i will become a regular here again because i have been posting for two days in a row.
my son left to sweden for the holidays and i felt a bit lonely in this big house, despite my bf
being here. it is hard to cut the umbrical cord, sigh.

--  
mhm 35x6
smeeter 37(?)
wsd40

we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars
wilde
elmoemerson@webtv.net - 24 Jul 2005 00:23 GMT

Re: Some new drugs that look great, and question (Anja)  

Group: alt.support.hepatitis-c Date: Sat, Jul 23, 2005, 8:16pm (CDT+7)
From: i havealife@home.com (Incantatrix)
elmoemerson@webtv.net    
<8507-42E251BA-267@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net> :
i don't see what's wrong trying to find people to take political action
about HCV in a hepatitis support group. especially for the americans who
post here, with the lousy social benefit system overthere.
/////////
Yes, our medical benefit system isn't socialized. I've noticed from
those posting here who live in countries that have socialized their
medical care, that even tho medical care may free, getting the proper
drugs to fight the dragon isn't always possible. SVR rates are lower in
those countries because they don't offer drugs such as Procrit or
Neupogen to combat sides. They instead resort to dose reductions or
stopping tx altogether. I'm grateful I live in the USA and was offered
those drugs, otherwise I probably would never have made it to the end of
the line or achieved SVR.
the tendency on tx in belgium is that the virus hasn't to be killed at
all costs. ( i don't know about the rest of europe, each country here
has it's own laws and own regimen of social security system)
if one however would have great liver damage and tx is the only option i
am sure they would give someone the procrit or neupogen they need to be
able to continue and get the so wanted SVR. it just isn't common here.
my hepatologist even refuses to put me on tx as i have no liver problems
and tx could cause more damage to the system than benefits. (despite of
getting rid of the virus. i don't want a f.cked up thyroid for example;
or the auto immune diseases my ex has since having been on tx) he is
very honest about stuff like that, which i find very important.
  There are also free drug programs for those who can't afford them.
we don't need free drug programs here, the social security system is for
everyone's benefit, rich or poor.
i heard many other stories about people living in the us of a who needed
medication or go to see a doctor or dentist.
In the UK, you can't even get tx unless you have a certain amount of
liver damage.
which is very logical. see why i am not treated, even though i do have
fluctuating alt and ast levels. in some cases the cure is worse than the
disease, especially if you don't have any liver damage an amount of
years after infection. (20 / 25 years ago in my case)
USA rocks!!!!
you have to live there, that's your opinion.
Elmo
(have a nice day, Anja)
thank you , hope you farted well through the morning ;)
regards
PS don't think i will become a regular here again because i have been
posting for two days in a row. my son left to sweden for the holidays
and i felt a bit lonely in this big house, despite my bf being here. it
is hard to cut the umbrical cord, sigh.
Signature

mhm 35x6
smeeter 37(?)
wsd40
we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars wilde  
//////////////
I can't argue with your logic, Anja.  Treatment isn't for everybody,
particularly those who have little or no liver damage.  I've seen
studies that suggest liver damage progresses at a more rapid pace with
age, 50 being a negative milestone.  
Am glad you are keeping tabls on things.  Hey, I enjoy seeing you post
whenever and if you did decide to stick around, it'd be a hoot.  Take
care!
Elmo

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum

Incantatrix - 24 Jul 2005 14:07 GMT
elmoemerson@webtv.net      <16854-42E2D18C-642@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> :


>I can't argue with your logic, Anja.  Treatment isn't for everybody,
>particularly those who have little or no liver damage.  I've seen
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>care!
>Elmo

thank you elmo.

eleven years to go before reaching the negative mile stone, i can wait for other viral killers in
the pipeline and skip the interferon and riba and stuff as long as possible :)
i get a liver check up every six months anyway, so if treatment is needed i will be in time.
i'll stick around some, but not as often as now.
my son started latin school last year and passed with an A+. he'll be doing latin/ancient greek from
september on, the smart a.s :)
the studies aren't easy, but he chose to do them himself, so he doesn't need to be motivated to
much. i help him with finding documentation and stuff on the internet for his history lessons so he
can concentrate on his grammmar. they not only study latin, but also dutch, french and english. next
year he'll get ancient greek as well.
not to mention i am a very proud mum ;)

--  
mhm 35x6
smeeter 37(?)
wsd40

we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars
wilde
elmoemerson@webtv.net - 24 Jul 2005 14:50 GMT
Far out, Anja!!  You've got damn good reason to be proud of your son.
Far too many youngsters in the US aren't motivated to his level, they're
too busy playing video games and text messaging on their cell phones.
It's no wonder the US is losing it's edge in science and technology.
Good for your son!!
Elmo

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum
 
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