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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / April 2005

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Cutting Out the Biopsy

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A.Melon - 15 Apr 2005 12:03 GMT
A certain red-haired friend of mine asked me if I would pass
this imformation on to the newsgroup as it may be of interest to
those who may, or may not, have found the biopsy painful or
expensive.

I am not subscribed to this magazine myself, so I have no way of
posting the full article, but this is the headline, and the url:

Cutting Out the Biopsy

New blood tests could decrease the number of biopsies performed
on hepatitis patients

By Marc S. Botts

www.hepatitismag.com/current.asp

Alan
Waterspider - 15 Apr 2005 19:44 GMT
>A certain red-haired friend of mine asked me if I would pass
> this imformation on to the newsgroup as it may be of interest to
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> www.hepatitismag.com/current.asp
> Alan

Yeah, there's no links to the article but I think it's talking about the
FibroSpec or Fibrotest (something like that); it's a blood test and
argueably as accurate as a biopsy in determining the level of
fibrosis/cirrhosis. Apparently the tried and true tissue biopsy is not the
perfect diagnostic tool either, because different sample areas of the liver
often reveal different levels and patterns of damage. Given that there is a
risk of dangerous complications involved in biopsy (not to mention expense,
inconvenience and discomfort), so the blood test would seem like the way to
go. Unfortunately it's not available in most of the world and most doctors
aren't aware of it as an option.

Waterspider
A.Melon - 15 Apr 2005 22:50 GMT
> >A certain red-haired friend of mine asked me if I would pass
> > this imformation on to the newsgroup as it may be of interest to
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Waterspider

She was on the phone, and she said it was in the mag, and people might want to
know about it, and would I post it, and that was all I could find by Googling,
and she said something about it being available in Paris, and I guess the only
one who will know about that is the pseudo-redhead who now lives in France, but
then she hasn't said anything about it yet, has she?

But thanks for the help Spidey, aand has your truck got cow-horns on the
radiator grill?

Alan
Waterspider - 17 Apr 2005 19:15 GMT
>> >A certain red-haired friend of mine asked me if I would pass
>> > this imformation on to the newsgroup as it may be of interest to
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> But thanks for the help Spidey, aand has your truck got cow-horns on the
> radiator grill?

No cow horns, just paw-prints all over the roof and hood.

WS
A.Melon - 18 Apr 2005 12:50 GMT
> No cow horns, just paw-prints all over the roof and hood.
>
> WS

Elmo's Heidi again? :-)

Alan
Waterspider - 18 Apr 2005 21:43 GMT
>> No cow horns, just paw-prints all over the roof and hood.
>> WS
>
> Elmo's Heidi again? :-)
> Alan

Nah, just cats. In the sunshine, the metal is nice and warm and on their
muddy little paws, or refreshing just after I've washed it in the hot
weather.

WS
Thomas Wagner - 16 Apr 2005 02:27 GMT
>Yeah, there's no links to the article but I think it's talking about the
>FibroSpec or Fibrotest (something like that); it's a blood test and
>argueably as accurate as a biopsy in determining the level of
>fibrosis/cirrhosis.

No, it clearly is not, at least not yet. They're working on
improvements, but so far accuracy is far from the level of a biopsy.

> Apparently the tried and true tissue biopsy is not the
>perfect diagnostic tool either, because different sample areas of the liver
>often reveal different levels and patterns of damage.

Not with HCV, that generally leads to relatively uniform damage. Biopsy
accuracy is more of a problem with other causes of liver damage
(alcoholic steatosis etc.).

>Given that there is a
>risk of dangerous complications involved in biopsy (not to mention expense,
>inconvenience and discomfort), so the blood test would seem like the way to
>go. Unfortunately it's not available in most of the world and most doctors
>aren't aware of it as an option.

Doctors are aware, but as I said it is not as accurate, and it has a
problem of "false negatives", i.e. indicating that the level of fibrosis
is lower than it is in reality. It does have some value as a first
diagnostic test, though, because the rate of false positives (indicating
damage when there is none) is much lower, so if the blood test indicates
high levels of fibrosis, it would likely eliminate the need for a biopsy
(you'd always start treatment). But apparently doctors still don't trust
the results.

Thomas
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Doug..... - 16 Apr 2005 03:54 GMT
Thomas, do you know about the virtual biopsy?  My DR. mentioned something
about something like this to me.  Have you heard about anything like this
and perhaps something on it's accuracy?  Doug...

>>Yeah, there's no links to the article but I think it's talking about the
>>FibroSpec or Fibrotest (something like that); it's a blood test and
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Thomas
Thomas Wagner - 16 Apr 2005 04:43 GMT
>Thomas, do you know about the virtual biopsy?  My DR. mentioned something
>about something like this to me.  Have you heard about anything like this
>and perhaps something on it's accuracy?  Doug...

I've read a report about a Spanish team doing computer evaluation of CT
scans that had good accuracy (but it's very new, it was presented today
at the EASL 2005 conference that's ongoing now in Paris):

FIBROSIS ASSESMENT IN HEPATITIS C BY COMPUTER-PERFORMED OPTICAL ANALYSIS
OF CT OF THE LIVER: A NOVEL NON-INVASIVE AND USEFUL METHOD
[...] Results: OS-WMF correlates with fibrosis (r=0.67;p<0.001),
increasing with F-stage: F0=0.77±1.08; F1=1.19±1.14; F2=1.64±1.99;
F3=2.88±0.61; F4=3.34±0.36 (ANOVA, p<0.0001). Mean fibrosis of the
cohort was 1.7±1.3 by histopathological analyses and 1.8±1.3 by OS-WMF,
p=ns. Since OS-WMF was 1.27+1.13 in F0-F2 and 3.09+0.55 in F3-F4,
p<0.0001, it discriminates patients with F3-F4: if OS-WMF<2, advanced
fibrosis can be excluded (NPV=97.9%) and if OS-WMF>3 the possibility of
showing F3-F4 is high (PPV=90%). However, one third of patients with
fibrosis F0-F1 showed OS-WMF>2.  Conclusions: Computer-performed optical
analysis of images from conventional CT of the liver is a reliable
method, able to measure hepatic fibrosis in patients with hepatitis C.
Weighted mean value and distribution of fibrosis in the liver can be
quantified. Major discrepancies with histopathological results are found
in patients with higher fibrosis stage. Whether this is a bias of
proposed method or an error due to sampling limitations of liver biopsy
requires further analysis
http://www.kenes.com/easl2005sci/program/CopyFile.asp?FileName=599.doc

From the same conference:

ARE CURRENT FIBROSIS SERUM MARKERS REALLY AN ALTERNATIVE TO LIVER BIOPSY
IN CHRONIC HEPATITIS C?

We recently described a score of fibrosis combining PIIINP and MMP-1,
which are involved in fibrogenesis and fibrolysis respectively. The aim
of this study was to evaluate its diagnostic accuracy compared to that
of a panel of other markers including prothrombin time (PT), hyaluronate
(HA), Fibrotest (FT), APRI and Forns' score in chronic hepatitis C (CHC)
patients Methods: One hundred and eighty CHC patients seen in our centre
for a pre-therapeutic liver biopsy were prospectively included. Liver
fibrosis was assessed using the METAVIR index. Sinusoidal fibrosis,
steatosis and iron load were quantified. Biochemical measurements were
performed on serums collected the day of the biopsy. Results: Median
length of liver biopsies was 22 mm. Patients were classified as F0:n=15,
F1:n=74, F2:n=40, F3:n=26, F4:n=24. Overall diagnostic accuracy of the 4
combined scores was better than that observed with PT and HA alone.
AUROC ranged from 0.79 to 0.84 for discriminating F0/F1 vs F2/F3/F4 and
from 0.81 to 0.88 for discriminating F0/F1/F2 vs F3/F4 (NS). Accuracy
was not altered by the length of biopsies or by the presence of
sinusoidal fibrosis, steatosis or iron in liver. Applying the lower
cut-off described for each score, METAVIR fibrosis greater than F1 could
be ruled out in about one third of patients with NPV ranging from 82 to
84%. The higher cut-off selected about 20% of patients whom extensive
fibrosis (F3F4) was confirmed with a PPV ranging from 89 to 93%.
Simultaneous use of at least 2 scores improved NPV up to 100% for the
diagnosis of F0F1, but decreased the number of selected patients.
Commercial application of FT proposes an estimated fibrosis METAVIR.
Discordances of at least 1 point were observed in 52% and of 2 points in
22% of patients. The only parameter associated with discordance was FT
between 0.20 and 0.80. Conclusion: Our results confirm that PIIINP/MMP-1
provides relevant information on liver fibrosis with a good accuracy,
comparable to that observed with FT, APRI and Forns' score. However none
of these scores can reliably give and estimated METAVIR index in each
patient. Combination of several scores could improve their accuracy.
http://www.kenes.com/easl2005sci/program/CopyFile.asp?FileName=577.doc

Thomas
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A.Melon - 16 Apr 2005 11:18 GMT
<snip>
> http://www.kenes.com/easl2005sci/program/CopyFile.asp?FileName=577.doc
>
> Thomas

I'm so glad you have finally learned to put in your references sources,
otherwise I would had to get *my* woman to whoop your a.s again, like she did
before, which she can do anytime she likes, simply because she is the best in
the world, and I don't want you ever being condescending towards her ever
again, otherwise I will do more than tell you to call me Lord Cerne Abbas.

And you can call me a pathological liar, but she had *you* whining about how
*you* were being abused, and there is no way she is going to come in here and
deny being *my* woman, not noway and not nohow, and any cowardly a.shole who
thinks he has prior rights on her had better come in here and lay claim to her
too, hadn't he?

But you know what? He can't because he is as condescending towards her as your
were, and the best he could come up with was that she "held her own" against
you, but everybody here knows she whooped your a.s good, and I told her so.

Now thank you for your help, but I didn't ask you to poke your oar in, because
anybody who wanted the info could have found it for themselves without you
playing god.

So do please feel free to piss-off.

Alan
Doug..... - 17 Apr 2005 03:08 GMT
Hey Thomas, Thank you very much for that info on the virtual biopsy.

                                                             Doug...

.
"Thomas Wagner" <tomw@capecod.com> wrote in message

>>Thomas, do you know about the virtual biopsy?  My DR. mentioned something
>>about something like this to me.  Have you heard about anything like this
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> scans that had good accuracy (but it's very new, it was presented today
> at the EASL 2005 conference that's ongoing now in Paris):
Thomas Wagner - 25 Apr 2005 21:03 GMT
>Yeah, there's no links to the article but I think it's talking about the
>FibroSpec or Fibrotest (something like that)

Another followup:
http://www.hcvadvocate.org/hepatitis/hepC/ASK_Fibrosure.htm

"You know many people would really like a way to get out of having a
liver biopsy, and I don't blame them. I've had plenty and some were
painful; some weren't.

I have a short answer, and a long answer.

The short answer is that the liver biopsy still remains the gold
standard for determining the extent and type of liver damage. It can
even show (amazingly) if there is more than one type of liver disease
causing the damage becuase of the physical evidence in the biopsy, and
the way in which various disorders damage the liver. Apparently the type
of damage from HBV is not the same as HCV etc. [...]"

Thomas
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greyhackles - 15 Apr 2005 23:37 GMT
>A certain red-haired friend of mine asked me if I would pass
>this imformation on to the newsgroup as it may be of interest to
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Alan

fwiw, you can hit the full article here:

http://www.hepatitismag.com/storydetail.asp?storyid=138

A traditional punch biopsy can only be counted upon to indicate the *least*
degree of damage present in the liver, thus the article makes a valid point
about the benefit of indirect scanning to the liver-challenged - even leaving
the issue of biopsy pain completely out of the equation. That's good.

otoh, there was no new information in the article. I would appreciate never
having to have a biopsy again, but this sure reads like a piece of periodic
pump-priming hype to me...

While there were no serious complications, my traditional, non-sedated liver
punch biopsy left me stunned and breathless. The lingering pain was a
second-order effect.

I attribute the ordeal to an F2-F3 liver; my bet is lower levels of fibrosis
allow the punch to sink cleanly, while the hardened condition of higher levels
translate some of the punch energy into a rather sharp movement of the organ.

My right lung - already deflated to a shriveled balloon - was not amused by
the intruding liver ;-)

cheers

/greyhackles
elmoemerson@webtv.net - 16 Apr 2005 03:09 GMT
If I wanted the most accurate picture of what shape my liver was in, I'd
get a biopsy.  Without the invasive procedure, all else is speculation.
So what if it's uncomfortable?  You can't put a fibrospecte, or
whatever, under a microscope and inspect it.  Examining living (or dead)
tissue is where it's at.  Get a biopsy.  
Elmo

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile

http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum
 
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