Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / April 2005
Cutting Out the Biopsy
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A.Melon - 15 Apr 2005 12:03 GMT A certain red-haired friend of mine asked me if I would pass this imformation on to the newsgroup as it may be of interest to those who may, or may not, have found the biopsy painful or expensive.
I am not subscribed to this magazine myself, so I have no way of posting the full article, but this is the headline, and the url:
Cutting Out the Biopsy
New blood tests could decrease the number of biopsies performed on hepatitis patients
By Marc S. Botts
www.hepatitismag.com/current.asp
Alan
Waterspider - 15 Apr 2005 19:44 GMT >A certain red-haired friend of mine asked me if I would pass > this imformation on to the newsgroup as it may be of interest to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > www.hepatitismag.com/current.asp > Alan Yeah, there's no links to the article but I think it's talking about the FibroSpec or Fibrotest (something like that); it's a blood test and argueably as accurate as a biopsy in determining the level of fibrosis/cirrhosis. Apparently the tried and true tissue biopsy is not the perfect diagnostic tool either, because different sample areas of the liver often reveal different levels and patterns of damage. Given that there is a risk of dangerous complications involved in biopsy (not to mention expense, inconvenience and discomfort), so the blood test would seem like the way to go. Unfortunately it's not available in most of the world and most doctors aren't aware of it as an option.
Waterspider
A.Melon - 15 Apr 2005 22:50 GMT > >A certain red-haired friend of mine asked me if I would pass > > this imformation on to the newsgroup as it may be of interest to [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Waterspider She was on the phone, and she said it was in the mag, and people might want to know about it, and would I post it, and that was all I could find by Googling, and she said something about it being available in Paris, and I guess the only one who will know about that is the pseudo-redhead who now lives in France, but then she hasn't said anything about it yet, has she?
But thanks for the help Spidey, aand has your truck got cow-horns on the radiator grill?
Alan
Waterspider - 17 Apr 2005 19:15 GMT >> >A certain red-haired friend of mine asked me if I would pass >> > this imformation on to the newsgroup as it may be of interest to [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > But thanks for the help Spidey, aand has your truck got cow-horns on the > radiator grill? No cow horns, just paw-prints all over the roof and hood.
WS
A.Melon - 18 Apr 2005 12:50 GMT > No cow horns, just paw-prints all over the roof and hood. > > WS Elmo's Heidi again? :-)
Alan
Waterspider - 18 Apr 2005 21:43 GMT >> No cow horns, just paw-prints all over the roof and hood. >> WS > > Elmo's Heidi again? :-) > Alan Nah, just cats. In the sunshine, the metal is nice and warm and on their muddy little paws, or refreshing just after I've washed it in the hot weather.
WS
Thomas Wagner - 16 Apr 2005 02:27 GMT >Yeah, there's no links to the article but I think it's talking about the >FibroSpec or Fibrotest (something like that); it's a blood test and >argueably as accurate as a biopsy in determining the level of >fibrosis/cirrhosis. No, it clearly is not, at least not yet. They're working on improvements, but so far accuracy is far from the level of a biopsy.
> Apparently the tried and true tissue biopsy is not the >perfect diagnostic tool either, because different sample areas of the liver >often reveal different levels and patterns of damage. Not with HCV, that generally leads to relatively uniform damage. Biopsy accuracy is more of a problem with other causes of liver damage (alcoholic steatosis etc.).
>Given that there is a >risk of dangerous complications involved in biopsy (not to mention expense, >inconvenience and discomfort), so the blood test would seem like the way to >go. Unfortunately it's not available in most of the world and most doctors >aren't aware of it as an option. Doctors are aware, but as I said it is not as accurate, and it has a problem of "false negatives", i.e. indicating that the level of fibrosis is lower than it is in reality. It does have some value as a first diagnostic test, though, because the rate of false positives (indicating damage when there is none) is much lower, so if the blood test indicates high levels of fibrosis, it would likely eliminate the need for a biopsy (you'd always start treatment). But apparently doctors still don't trust the results.
Thomas
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Doug..... - 16 Apr 2005 03:54 GMT Thomas, do you know about the virtual biopsy? My DR. mentioned something about something like this to me. Have you heard about anything like this and perhaps something on it's accuracy? Doug...
>>Yeah, there's no links to the article but I think it's talking about the >>FibroSpec or Fibrotest (something like that); it's a blood test and [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Thomas Thomas Wagner - 16 Apr 2005 04:43 GMT >Thomas, do you know about the virtual biopsy? My DR. mentioned something >about something like this to me. Have you heard about anything like this >and perhaps something on it's accuracy? Doug... I've read a report about a Spanish team doing computer evaluation of CT scans that had good accuracy (but it's very new, it was presented today at the EASL 2005 conference that's ongoing now in Paris):
FIBROSIS ASSESMENT IN HEPATITIS C BY COMPUTER-PERFORMED OPTICAL ANALYSIS OF CT OF THE LIVER: A NOVEL NON-INVASIVE AND USEFUL METHOD [...] Results: OS-WMF correlates with fibrosis (r=0.67;p<0.001), increasing with F-stage: F0=0.77±1.08; F1=1.19±1.14; F2=1.64±1.99; F3=2.88±0.61; F4=3.34±0.36 (ANOVA, p<0.0001). Mean fibrosis of the cohort was 1.7±1.3 by histopathological analyses and 1.8±1.3 by OS-WMF, p=ns. Since OS-WMF was 1.27+1.13 in F0-F2 and 3.09+0.55 in F3-F4, p<0.0001, it discriminates patients with F3-F4: if OS-WMF<2, advanced fibrosis can be excluded (NPV=97.9%) and if OS-WMF>3 the possibility of showing F3-F4 is high (PPV=90%). However, one third of patients with fibrosis F0-F1 showed OS-WMF>2. Conclusions: Computer-performed optical analysis of images from conventional CT of the liver is a reliable method, able to measure hepatic fibrosis in patients with hepatitis C. Weighted mean value and distribution of fibrosis in the liver can be quantified. Major discrepancies with histopathological results are found in patients with higher fibrosis stage. Whether this is a bias of proposed method or an error due to sampling limitations of liver biopsy requires further analysis http://www.kenes.com/easl2005sci/program/CopyFile.asp?FileName=599.doc
From the same conference:
ARE CURRENT FIBROSIS SERUM MARKERS REALLY AN ALTERNATIVE TO LIVER BIOPSY IN CHRONIC HEPATITIS C?
We recently described a score of fibrosis combining PIIINP and MMP-1, which are involved in fibrogenesis and fibrolysis respectively. The aim of this study was to evaluate its diagnostic accuracy compared to that of a panel of other markers including prothrombin time (PT), hyaluronate (HA), Fibrotest (FT), APRI and Forns' score in chronic hepatitis C (CHC) patients Methods: One hundred and eighty CHC patients seen in our centre for a pre-therapeutic liver biopsy were prospectively included. Liver fibrosis was assessed using the METAVIR index. Sinusoidal fibrosis, steatosis and iron load were quantified. Biochemical measurements were performed on serums collected the day of the biopsy. Results: Median length of liver biopsies was 22 mm. Patients were classified as F0:n=15, F1:n=74, F2:n=40, F3:n=26, F4:n=24. Overall diagnostic accuracy of the 4 combined scores was better than that observed with PT and HA alone. AUROC ranged from 0.79 to 0.84 for discriminating F0/F1 vs F2/F3/F4 and from 0.81 to 0.88 for discriminating F0/F1/F2 vs F3/F4 (NS). Accuracy was not altered by the length of biopsies or by the presence of sinusoidal fibrosis, steatosis or iron in liver. Applying the lower cut-off described for each score, METAVIR fibrosis greater than F1 could be ruled out in about one third of patients with NPV ranging from 82 to 84%. The higher cut-off selected about 20% of patients whom extensive fibrosis (F3F4) was confirmed with a PPV ranging from 89 to 93%. Simultaneous use of at least 2 scores improved NPV up to 100% for the diagnosis of F0F1, but decreased the number of selected patients. Commercial application of FT proposes an estimated fibrosis METAVIR. Discordances of at least 1 point were observed in 52% and of 2 points in 22% of patients. The only parameter associated with discordance was FT between 0.20 and 0.80. Conclusion: Our results confirm that PIIINP/MMP-1 provides relevant information on liver fibrosis with a good accuracy, comparable to that observed with FT, APRI and Forns' score. However none of these scores can reliably give and estimated METAVIR index in each patient. Combination of several scores could improve their accuracy. http://www.kenes.com/easl2005sci/program/CopyFile.asp?FileName=577.doc
Thomas
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A.Melon - 16 Apr 2005 11:18 GMT <snip>
> http://www.kenes.com/easl2005sci/program/CopyFile.asp?FileName=577.doc > > Thomas I'm so glad you have finally learned to put in your references sources, otherwise I would had to get *my* woman to whoop your a.s again, like she did before, which she can do anytime she likes, simply because she is the best in the world, and I don't want you ever being condescending towards her ever again, otherwise I will do more than tell you to call me Lord Cerne Abbas.
And you can call me a pathological liar, but she had *you* whining about how *you* were being abused, and there is no way she is going to come in here and deny being *my* woman, not noway and not nohow, and any cowardly a.shole who thinks he has prior rights on her had better come in here and lay claim to her too, hadn't he?
But you know what? He can't because he is as condescending towards her as your were, and the best he could come up with was that she "held her own" against you, but everybody here knows she whooped your a.s good, and I told her so.
Now thank you for your help, but I didn't ask you to poke your oar in, because anybody who wanted the info could have found it for themselves without you playing god.
So do please feel free to piss-off.
Alan
Doug..... - 17 Apr 2005 03:08 GMT Hey Thomas, Thank you very much for that info on the virtual biopsy.
Doug...
. "Thomas Wagner" <tomw@capecod.com> wrote in message
>>Thomas, do you know about the virtual biopsy? My DR. mentioned something >>about something like this to me. Have you heard about anything like this [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > scans that had good accuracy (but it's very new, it was presented today > at the EASL 2005 conference that's ongoing now in Paris): Thomas Wagner - 25 Apr 2005 21:03 GMT >Yeah, there's no links to the article but I think it's talking about the >FibroSpec or Fibrotest (something like that) Another followup: http://www.hcvadvocate.org/hepatitis/hepC/ASK_Fibrosure.htm
"You know many people would really like a way to get out of having a liver biopsy, and I don't blame them. I've had plenty and some were painful; some weren't.
I have a short answer, and a long answer.
The short answer is that the liver biopsy still remains the gold standard for determining the extent and type of liver damage. It can even show (amazingly) if there is more than one type of liver disease causing the damage becuase of the physical evidence in the biopsy, and the way in which various disorders damage the liver. Apparently the type of damage from HBV is not the same as HCV etc. [...]"
Thomas
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greyhackles - 15 Apr 2005 23:37 GMT >A certain red-haired friend of mine asked me if I would pass >this imformation on to the newsgroup as it may be of interest to [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Alan fwiw, you can hit the full article here:
http://www.hepatitismag.com/storydetail.asp?storyid=138
A traditional punch biopsy can only be counted upon to indicate the *least* degree of damage present in the liver, thus the article makes a valid point about the benefit of indirect scanning to the liver-challenged - even leaving the issue of biopsy pain completely out of the equation. That's good.
otoh, there was no new information in the article. I would appreciate never having to have a biopsy again, but this sure reads like a piece of periodic pump-priming hype to me...
While there were no serious complications, my traditional, non-sedated liver punch biopsy left me stunned and breathless. The lingering pain was a second-order effect.
I attribute the ordeal to an F2-F3 liver; my bet is lower levels of fibrosis allow the punch to sink cleanly, while the hardened condition of higher levels translate some of the punch energy into a rather sharp movement of the organ.
My right lung - already deflated to a shriveled balloon - was not amused by the intruding liver ;-)
cheers
/greyhackles
elmoemerson@webtv.net - 16 Apr 2005 03:09 GMT If I wanted the most accurate picture of what shape my liver was in, I'd get a biopsy. Without the invasive procedure, all else is speculation. So what if it's uncomfortable? You can't put a fibrospecte, or whatever, under a microscope and inspect it. Examining living (or dead) tissue is where it's at. Get a biopsy. Elmo
http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile
http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/TheFamilyAlbum
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