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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / August 2004

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Ping:  Hepautornagic ( Re: Herbal Remedies for HCV Patients)

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Thip - 28 Aug 2004 21:01 GMT
Do you have any additional information on this?  I've Googled til I'm blue
in the face and I can't find a thing.
Thomas Wagner - 28 Aug 2004 21:41 GMT
>Do you have any additional information on this?  I've Googled til I'm blue
>in the face and I can't find a thing.

I've posted the same info back in May, and there have been no new
developments since then.

The original article about the mistletoe treatment is here:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/478275
No news on anyone trying to replicate the results.

Some more details on the tomato sauce results are here:
http://www.natap.org/2003/DDW/day14.htm

The abstract on TJ-135 is on Medline:

"Herb medicine Inchin-ko-to (TJ-135) regulates PDGF-BB-dependent
signaling pathways of hepatic stellate cells in primary culture and
attenuates development of liver fibrosis induced by thioacetamide
administration in rats [In Process Citation]
J Hepatol 2004 Aug;41(2):242-50     (ISSN: 0168-8278)
Imanishi Y; Maeda N; Otogawa K; Seki S; Matsui H; Kawada N; Arakawa T
Department of Hepatology, Graduate School of Medicine, Osaka City
University, 1-4-3 Asahimachi, Abeno, Osaka 545-8585, Japan.
BACKGROUND/AIMS: We studied the effect of Inchin-ko-to (TJ-135), a herb
medicine that has been clinically used for liver cirrhosis in Japan, on
liver fibrosis in a rat model and on the function of stellate cells.
METHODS: Rat liver fibrosis was generated by thioacetamide (TAA)
administration. DNA synthesis was assessed by 5-bromo-2'-deoxyuridine
incorporation assay. Protein expression was analysed by western
blotting. Collagen and fibronectin mRNA expression were analysed by
reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR). RESULTS:
TJ-135 improved liver fibrosis induced in rats by TAA administration.
TJ-135 reduced collagen deposition and the expression of smooth muscle
alpha-actin in fibrotic liver tissues and decreased the serum level of
hyaluronic acid. In primary-cultured stellate cells, TJ-135 suppressed
DNA synthesis and the expression of collagen alpha1(I), collagen III,
and fibronectin mRNAs. It hampered DNA synthesis and migration of
PDGF-BB-stimulated stellate cells through inhibiting phosphorylation of
PDGF receptor-beta and down-stream signaling pathways. Among TJ-135
components, 3-methyl-1,6,8-trihydroxyanthraquinone (emodin) derived from
Rhei rhizoma was found to be the most active molecule. CONCLUSIONS:
TJ-135 and emodin regulate PDGF-dependent events in stellate cells and
attenuate the development of liver fibrosis. Their clinical use may be
beneficial for the therapy of human liver fibrosis."

No news whether it works as well in humans, and whether it helps with
HCV-induced fibrosis (the fibrosis in the experiment was caused by
toxins).

Thomas
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Thip - 28 Aug 2004 21:58 GMT
Thanks, Thomas.  Must be more snake oil or we'd have heard about it, I'm
sure.
Hepautornagic - 29 Aug 2004 00:41 GMT
>Thip" me@privacy.net
>Date: 28/08/2004 4:01 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <2pc6itFj9cqnU1@uni-berlin.de>
>
>Do you have any additional information on this?  I've Googled til I'm blue
>in the face and I can't find a thing.

Actually Thip, I can access some additional info with my credit card. I need it
for my own group as well. As soon as I get it I will post it. I usually have to
order it direct from the journals. The abstracts are not always available free
of charge. So the information is not available to the public over the internet
without charge. Same with many conventional studies. I'll see what I can dig up
for you, it's usually quite cheap. In the mean time, you can always search here
for yourself.
http://nccam.nih.gov/
National Center for Complimentry and Alternative Medicine.

It may take a week or so, remind me if I forget.

Take Care,

Kim
I care not to argue this, so Thip, if you'd like it in your email, email me.

TIA.

Soon as I get some, I'll pass it on. In the mean time you can check in the
National Alternative Complimentery
Thip - 29 Aug 2004 01:31 GMT
I appreciate it!

> >Thip" me@privacy.net
> >Date: 28/08/2004 4:01 PM Eastern Standard Time
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Soon as I get some, I'll pass it on. In the mean time you can check in the
> National Alternative Complimentery
Hepautornagic - 29 Aug 2004 09:29 GMT
>Thip" me@privacy.net
>Date: 28/08/2004 8:31 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <2pcmdoFjhth6U1@uni-berlin.de>
>
>I appreciate it!

Hi Thip,

I did a little on line research. You really should consult a professional on
mistletoe and find out exactly how to take it. Although this has made some meak
results in certain studies, (and the mistletoe was hightly diluted) you need to
ask a professional on this substance since it it known to be toxic to the
liver. Buying this stuff from a health food store would not benefit you. I must
stress that you would have to see someone who specializes in this type of
therapy before touching it. Here are some studies and risks below.

Effects of a mistletoe preparation with defined lectin content on chronic
hepatitis C: an individually controlled cohort study.

Huber R, Ludtke R, Klassen M, Muller-Buscher G, Wolff-Vorbeck G, Scheer R.

Center for Complementary Medicien, Department of Internal Medicine II,
University Hospital Freiburg, Germany. rhuber@med1.ukl.uni-freiburg.de

Despite advances in the therapy of chronic hepatitis C for some hepatitis C
virus (HCV) genotypes interferon and ribavirin combination therapy is effective
in less than 50% of patients. Abnobaviscum Quercus (AQ) is a mistletoe
preparation containing defined amounts of mistletoe lectins (ML). It has shown
immunomodulatory properties in vitro and in vivo. In small clinical trials AQ
resulted, within an anthroposophical treatment concept, in a biochemical or
virological response in up to 40% of patients with chronic hepatitis C. In
order to evaluate the effect of this preparation we conducted an individually
controlled cohort study. 25 patients with chronic hepatitis C (mean duration
147 +/- 80 months) and elevated alanine aminotransferase (ALT) levels were
included in the study. As control they were observed for 6 months
pre-treatment. This pre-treatment period was followed by 6 months of active
treatment in which the mistletoe preparation was subcutaneously injected three
times a week. Main outcome parameters were normalization of ALT and viral load.
Hepatitis C associated signs and symptoms like tiredness, fullness in the right
upper abdomen and musculoskeletal pain were assessed monthly in a standardized
questionnaire. All 25 patients completed the study and most of the patients
wanted to continue treatment. Mean duration of treatment was 9.1 months. None
of the patients had complete or partial normalization of ALT or HCV RNA levels
during pre-treatment or treatment period. Mean ALT did not change during the
study. Tiredness, fullness in the right upper abdomen and musculoskeletal pain
were present in 18, 8 and 4 patients respectively. They significantly improved
within two months of treatment. A significant eosinophilia (p=0.0001) occurred
between month 2 and 6 during treatment. 9 month treatment with a ML containing
mistletoe preparation has no effect on viral load or ALT as markers of activity
in patients with chronic hepatitis C. However, frequency and intensity of
clinical signs and symptoms in our patients decreased significantly, similar to
reports of improved quality of life in tumour patients treated with such
preparations. A significant eosinophilia suggests that ML containing mistletoe
preparations induce a T-helper 2 immune response.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Controlled Clinical Trial
PMID: 11669085 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Government studies Mistletoe:
http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/gui/show/NCT00006354

Ann Emerg Med. 1986 Nov;15(11):1320-3.  Related Articles, Links  

Assessing mistletoe toxicity.

Hall AH, Spoerke DG, Rumack BH.

To assess the potential toxicity of mistletoe ingestion, data were collected on
14 cases of ingestion of one to three berries or one or two leaves of American
mistletoe (Phoradendron sp) from 1982 to 1985. Eleven patients ingested berries
and three ingested leaves; none became symptomatic. Nine patients were observed
at home without intervention except poison center telephone follow-up. Five had
induced emesis, including two who were referred to emergency departments for
evaluation, where no findings other than ipecac-induced vomiting were noted.
Also reviewed were data on a total of 318 cases of mistletoe ingestion reported
to the Food and Drug Administration Poison Control case reporting system
between 1978 and 1983 (n = 177) and the American Association of Poison Control
Centers national data collection system (n = 141) in 1984. The majority
remained asymptomatic and no deaths were recorded. These data allow the
conclusion that ingestion of one to three mistletoe berries or one or two
leaves is unlikely to produce serious toxicity.

PMID: 2877602 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

So, while it might look alright, it is important to find somebody who knows
about this and how to use it. There are associated serious risks.

Take Care,

Kim
Thomas Wagner - 29 Aug 2004 16:28 GMT
>[...] None
>of the patients had complete or partial normalization of ALT or HCV RNA levels
>during pre-treatment or treatment period.

That's what's so fascinating about the Matthes study - they apparently
did achieve undetectable viral loads. I found that the old Medscape link
doesn't work, here's another:
http://www.thedoctorslounge.net/gastrolounge/articles/hepatitis_mistletoe/

However... from what I found in the German literature about the Matthes
studies (http://hepatitis-c.de/mistel1.htm), they were actually done
between 1995 and 1999, with the fist publication of the results in 1997.
Seven years later, this study is reported as news in the US. Huh?

A lot more research is needed, especially research done by specialists
in standard medicine. The Havelhoehe clinic is an anthroposophic clinic,
with the treatment molded by the Waldorf philosophy. Not that that's a
bad thing, but replication by an unbiased clinic is necessary.

Thomas
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To reach me, complete my last name in the address.

Hepautornagic - 29 Aug 2004 18:10 GMT
>Thomas Wagner tomw@capecod.com
>Date: 29/08/2004 11:28 AM Eastern Standard Time
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>between 1995 and 1999, with the fist publication of the results in 1997.
>Seven years later, this study is reported as news in the US. Huh?

I know, and I agree for a change.  :)

>A lot more research is needed, especially research done by specialists
>in standard medicine.

That seems to be the big problem. It seems like an us (conventional) against
them (alternative) thing, and nobody is willing to step down, and just study
these things together for the sake of the patient, rather it seems one wants
the patent for profit, and to bad for the patient. IYKWIM.

The Havelhoehe clinic is an anthroposophic clinic,
>with the treatment molded by the Waldorf philosophy. Not that that's a
>bad thing, but replication by an unbiased clinic is necessary.

At this date and time though, unlikely.

Kim

>Thomas
Agua Girl - 29 Aug 2004 18:32 GMT
> That seems to be the big problem. It seems like an us (conventional) against
> them (alternative) thing, and nobody is willing to step down, and just study
> these things together for the sake of the patient, rather it seems one wants
> the patent for profit, and to bad for the patient. IYKWIM.

One of the biggest problems with alternative medicine is the
difficulty in attributing the successes to the treatment.  I know
people who have had the pain from arthritis diminish significantly
with Reiki.  How is that possible?  and how do you measure it?
I have a friend who can make just about anyone's headache go
away with a foot massage...even migraines.  How do you
attribute the results directly to the action?
We know so little about the mind and the bodies ability to heal
itself.  I don't mean mend broken bones, but things like beating
cancer or blocking migraines or even ridding the body of
viruses.  Your body has the antibodies to fight a lot of illnesses,
they just aren't always strong enough.  But if you could channel
them where needed, strengthen them, infuse them with more
energy...then perhaps they could.  I just don't see how the
medical profession could measure these things.

disclaimer:  This is not an endorsement for or against, merely
an opinion on ONE reason why there isn't more clinical
data on alternative medicines.

AG
Hepautornagic - 29 Aug 2004 21:40 GMT
>"Agua Girl" uknown@spamblock.net
>Date: 29/08/2004 1:32 PM Eastern Standard Time
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>One of the biggest problems with alternative medicine is the
>difficulty in attributing the successes to the treatment.

Exactly, and what you speak of below is most impossible to explain in
scientific form.

I know
>people who have had the pain from arthritis diminish significantly
>with Reiki.  How is that possible?  and how do you measure it?
>I have a friend who can make just about anyone's headache go
>away with a foot massage...even migraines.  How do you
>attribute the results directly to the action?

If they could articulate the results, it would be a good thing, because I have
had much success with massage therapy. I enjoy many of the things you speak of,
but have very little way to explain how or why they work for my pain, or just
overall good feeling. It very could be a placebo effect as some would write it
off to be, but in my personal experience, I don't think that is it. I believe I
am getting fantastic results doing what I am doing, and I feel not only lucky,
but I feel great!

>We know so little about the mind and the bodies ability to heal
>itself.  I don't mean mend broken bones, but things like beating
>cancer or blocking migraines or even ridding the body of
>viruses.

Did you ever see the documentry about the little boy, who had malignant brain
tumors? He imagined the marshans from mars would destroy the tumors regularly.
Not long after, there were no detection of tumors and he lived healthily
thereafter? Explain that!

Your body has the antibodies to fight a lot of illnesses,
>they just aren't always strong enough.  But if you could channel
>them where needed, strengthen them, infuse them with more
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>disclaimer:  This is not an endorsement for or against, merely
>an opinion on ONE reason why there isn't more clinical  data on alternative
medicines.

LOL, I think that was very funny, considering the seriousness of our light
hearted discussions around here! You keep that humor, for even in illness, they
can't explain why, laughter is the best medicine. I also think that anyone
should be able to express thier opinions around here more often.  

Stay Strong.

Kim

>AG
Thomas Wagner - 29 Aug 2004 22:29 GMT
>That seems to be the big problem. It seems like an us (conventional) against
>them (alternative) thing, and nobody is willing to step down, and just study
>these things together for the sake of the patient, rather it seems one wants
>the patent for profit, and to bad for the patient. IYKWIM.

You may be right, but I can't understand why no one is willing to take
the risk and just try it. The rewards could be significant - a cheap
treatment with few sides could make the developers pretty rich in no
time. The initial investment wouldn't be insurmountable, just get a few
venture capitalists interested. Since the combination of ingredients
would be patentable, and any competitor would have to go through the
same costly clinical approval cycle, you'd likely be assured sufficient
profits to recoup your initial investment several times over. But a
VC-financed model of traditional drug development is almost unheard of,
even though it's used in the biotech and medical supply fields (stents,
for example). Why?

>> but replication by an unbiased clinic is necessary.
>
>At this date and time though, unlikely.

Unfortunately, I have to share your pessimism.

Thomas
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To reach me, complete my last name in the address.

Thip - 29 Aug 2004 23:05 GMT
Considering the shape I'm in, and considering that conventional treatment
hasn't worked for me, I'M willing to try it!

The hard part is finding someone knowledgeable enough to help me with it.

> >That seems to be the big problem. It seems like an us (conventional) against
> >them (alternative) thing, and nobody is willing to step down, and just study
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Thomas
Agua Girl - 29 Aug 2004 23:12 GMT
> Considering the shape I'm in, and considering that conventional treatment
> hasn't worked for me, I'M willing to try it!
>
> The hard part is finding someone knowledgeable enough to help me with it.

Dang...there is a doctor in the pacific northwest that was famous for
implementing herbal remedies long before stores starting carrying them.
Naturally his name totally escapes me right now (but I will remember).
I went to a couple of lectures he did and the guy was light years
ahead of peers.  I'm going to look through my notes and see if I still
have the handouts from the lecture.

AG
Thip - 30 Aug 2004 00:11 GMT
That would be absolutely awesome!!!!!

> Dang...there is a doctor in the pacific northwest that was famous for
> implementing herbal remedies long before stores starting carrying them.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> AG
Michael Arends - 30 Aug 2004 00:51 GMT
Agua Girl answered:

>>Considering the shape I'm in, and considering that conventional treatment
>>hasn't worked for me, I'M willing to try it!
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> AG

PLEASE do!!   I'm near seattle.

Michael
Agua Girl - 30 Aug 2004 00:55 GMT
> Considering the shape I'm in, and considering that conventional treatment
> hasn't worked for me, I'M willing to try it!
>
> The hard part is finding someone knowledgeable enough to help me with it.

Check out.....
http://www.keytohealthclinic.com/aboutdrdickson.html

There are also a couple of websites that have links to
Naturopathic doctors that I got from Mothers Markets...
these look like they might help.

http://www.herbnet.com/practitioners_p1.htm

http://dir.thumbshots.net    then look under health, alternative,
naturopathy, practitioners and clinics.

Good luck.  Hope you find something that works for you!

AG
Julie - 31 Aug 2004 04:04 GMT
I live in North Carolina and I can get you deal on a few gallon jugs of
white lightning (peach brandy).  The stuff is guaranteed to cure you of any
illness.  The only serious side effect is that the stuff will kill you in
the process, but you will die in a very buzzed state.
Kill the dragon and not your intelligence,
Julie

'

> > Considering the shape I'm in, and considering that conventional treatment
> > hasn't worked for me, I'M willing to try it!
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> AG
Thip - 31 Aug 2004 10:20 GMT
> I live in North Carolina and I can get you deal on a few gallon jugs of
> white lightning (peach brandy).  The stuff is guaranteed to cure you of any
> illness.  The only serious side effect is that the stuff will kill you in
> the process, but you will die in a very buzzed state.
> Kill the dragon and not your intelligence,
> Julie

I'm in Georgia and we've got the same stuff.  If and when the time comes, I
might lay back on the porch and get myself a serious buzz.  Might's well go
out slap-happy, eh?
Julie - 31 Aug 2004 03:58 GMT
Oh yeah, and did you know that the Russians can make oil out of a few simple
raw ingredients?
One of my dearest friends put herself through hell using similar clinics in
Mexico and Spain in an attempt to cure her of cancer.  She died a miserable
death while some quacks got rich off of her and her family.

> >[...] None
> >of the patients had complete or partial normalization of ALT or HCV RNA levels
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Thomas
Agua Girl - 31 Aug 2004 05:08 GMT
> Oh yeah, and did you know that the Russians can make oil out of a few simple
> raw ingredients?
> One of my dearest friends put herself through hell using similar clinics in
> Mexico and Spain in an attempt to cure her of cancer.  She died a miserable
> death while some quacks got rich off of her and her family.

Sorry to hear about your friend.  The thing is, Natural Medicine has
been around as long as man..much longer than the drug companies.
There is an accreditation for ND's and they are regulated just like
all the other specialties.  I wouldn't suggest going to the witch
down the street and letting her concoct some "brew" for you but
going to an ND isn't any more dangerous than going to an MD.
...and if modern medicine (or the MD) has failed as in Thips case,
seeking an alternative is the next logical step.

AG
Hepautornagic - 31 Aug 2004 08:43 GMT
> Oh yeah, and did you know that the Russians can make oil out of a few
simple
> raw ingredients?
> One of my dearest friends put herself through hell using similar clinics
in
> Mexico and Spain in an attempt to cure her of cancer.  She died a
miserable
> death while some quacks got rich off of her and her family.

At the same time, my father went through hell while he was dying of cancer in a
conventional hospital. He was only 65. The doctors recommended accupuncture for
pain, and pot for nausea, and yeah, they let us bring it to him, take him
outside and let him smoke it. They turned a blind eye. When he could no longer
go outside they let us give him tea made out of it. It was the only time he had
such a good laugh. I remember him saying this stuff is no good, then laughing
his head off!

So, really, how does one sort it all out? I don't know how much it cost the tax
payers to allow him to stay in the hospital for the last month, and have home
care prior to that, the drives to and from radiation etc, but I'm sure none of
those in the conventional field, who recommended a couple of unconvetional
things didn't get poor from it. :)

Kim
 
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