Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / August 2004
Ping: Hepautornagic ( Re: Herbal Remedies for HCV Patients)
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Thip - 28 Aug 2004 21:01 GMT Do you have any additional information on this? I've Googled til I'm blue in the face and I can't find a thing.
Thomas Wagner - 28 Aug 2004 21:41 GMT >Do you have any additional information on this? I've Googled til I'm blue >in the face and I can't find a thing. I've posted the same info back in May, and there have been no new developments since then.
The original article about the mistletoe treatment is here: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/478275 No news on anyone trying to replicate the results.
Some more details on the tomato sauce results are here: http://www.natap.org/2003/DDW/day14.htm
The abstract on TJ-135 is on Medline:
"Herb medicine Inchin-ko-to (TJ-135) regulates PDGF-BB-dependent signaling pathways of hepatic stellate cells in primary culture and attenuates development of liver fibrosis induced by thioacetamide administration in rats [In Process Citation] J Hepatol 2004 Aug;41(2):242-50 (ISSN: 0168-8278) Imanishi Y; Maeda N; Otogawa K; Seki S; Matsui H; Kawada N; Arakawa T Department of Hepatology, Graduate School of Medicine, Osaka City University, 1-4-3 Asahimachi, Abeno, Osaka 545-8585, Japan. BACKGROUND/AIMS: We studied the effect of Inchin-ko-to (TJ-135), a herb medicine that has been clinically used for liver cirrhosis in Japan, on liver fibrosis in a rat model and on the function of stellate cells. METHODS: Rat liver fibrosis was generated by thioacetamide (TAA) administration. DNA synthesis was assessed by 5-bromo-2'-deoxyuridine incorporation assay. Protein expression was analysed by western blotting. Collagen and fibronectin mRNA expression were analysed by reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR). RESULTS: TJ-135 improved liver fibrosis induced in rats by TAA administration. TJ-135 reduced collagen deposition and the expression of smooth muscle alpha-actin in fibrotic liver tissues and decreased the serum level of hyaluronic acid. In primary-cultured stellate cells, TJ-135 suppressed DNA synthesis and the expression of collagen alpha1(I), collagen III, and fibronectin mRNAs. It hampered DNA synthesis and migration of PDGF-BB-stimulated stellate cells through inhibiting phosphorylation of PDGF receptor-beta and down-stream signaling pathways. Among TJ-135 components, 3-methyl-1,6,8-trihydroxyanthraquinone (emodin) derived from Rhei rhizoma was found to be the most active molecule. CONCLUSIONS: TJ-135 and emodin regulate PDGF-dependent events in stellate cells and attenuate the development of liver fibrosis. Their clinical use may be beneficial for the therapy of human liver fibrosis."
No news whether it works as well in humans, and whether it helps with HCV-induced fibrosis (the fibrosis in the experiment was caused by toxins).
Thomas
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Thip - 28 Aug 2004 21:58 GMT Thanks, Thomas. Must be more snake oil or we'd have heard about it, I'm sure.
Hepautornagic - 29 Aug 2004 00:41 GMT >Thip" me@privacy.net >Date: 28/08/2004 4:01 PM Eastern Standard Time >Message-id: <2pc6itFj9cqnU1@uni-berlin.de> > >Do you have any additional information on this? I've Googled til I'm blue >in the face and I can't find a thing. Actually Thip, I can access some additional info with my credit card. I need it for my own group as well. As soon as I get it I will post it. I usually have to order it direct from the journals. The abstracts are not always available free of charge. So the information is not available to the public over the internet without charge. Same with many conventional studies. I'll see what I can dig up for you, it's usually quite cheap. In the mean time, you can always search here for yourself. http://nccam.nih.gov/ National Center for Complimentry and Alternative Medicine.
It may take a week or so, remind me if I forget.
Take Care,
Kim I care not to argue this, so Thip, if you'd like it in your email, email me.
TIA.
Soon as I get some, I'll pass it on. In the mean time you can check in the National Alternative Complimentery
Thip - 29 Aug 2004 01:31 GMT I appreciate it!
> >Thip" me@privacy.net > >Date: 28/08/2004 4:01 PM Eastern Standard Time [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Soon as I get some, I'll pass it on. In the mean time you can check in the > National Alternative Complimentery Hepautornagic - 29 Aug 2004 09:29 GMT >Thip" me@privacy.net >Date: 28/08/2004 8:31 PM Eastern Standard Time >Message-id: <2pcmdoFjhth6U1@uni-berlin.de> > >I appreciate it! Hi Thip,
I did a little on line research. You really should consult a professional on mistletoe and find out exactly how to take it. Although this has made some meak results in certain studies, (and the mistletoe was hightly diluted) you need to ask a professional on this substance since it it known to be toxic to the liver. Buying this stuff from a health food store would not benefit you. I must stress that you would have to see someone who specializes in this type of therapy before touching it. Here are some studies and risks below.
Effects of a mistletoe preparation with defined lectin content on chronic hepatitis C: an individually controlled cohort study.
Huber R, Ludtke R, Klassen M, Muller-Buscher G, Wolff-Vorbeck G, Scheer R.
Center for Complementary Medicien, Department of Internal Medicine II, University Hospital Freiburg, Germany. rhuber@med1.ukl.uni-freiburg.de
Despite advances in the therapy of chronic hepatitis C for some hepatitis C virus (HCV) genotypes interferon and ribavirin combination therapy is effective in less than 50% of patients. Abnobaviscum Quercus (AQ) is a mistletoe preparation containing defined amounts of mistletoe lectins (ML). It has shown immunomodulatory properties in vitro and in vivo. In small clinical trials AQ resulted, within an anthroposophical treatment concept, in a biochemical or virological response in up to 40% of patients with chronic hepatitis C. In order to evaluate the effect of this preparation we conducted an individually controlled cohort study. 25 patients with chronic hepatitis C (mean duration 147 +/- 80 months) and elevated alanine aminotransferase (ALT) levels were included in the study. As control they were observed for 6 months pre-treatment. This pre-treatment period was followed by 6 months of active treatment in which the mistletoe preparation was subcutaneously injected three times a week. Main outcome parameters were normalization of ALT and viral load. Hepatitis C associated signs and symptoms like tiredness, fullness in the right upper abdomen and musculoskeletal pain were assessed monthly in a standardized questionnaire. All 25 patients completed the study and most of the patients wanted to continue treatment. Mean duration of treatment was 9.1 months. None of the patients had complete or partial normalization of ALT or HCV RNA levels during pre-treatment or treatment period. Mean ALT did not change during the study. Tiredness, fullness in the right upper abdomen and musculoskeletal pain were present in 18, 8 and 4 patients respectively. They significantly improved within two months of treatment. A significant eosinophilia (p=0.0001) occurred between month 2 and 6 during treatment. 9 month treatment with a ML containing mistletoe preparation has no effect on viral load or ALT as markers of activity in patients with chronic hepatitis C. However, frequency and intensity of clinical signs and symptoms in our patients decreased significantly, similar to reports of improved quality of life in tumour patients treated with such preparations. A significant eosinophilia suggests that ML containing mistletoe preparations induce a T-helper 2 immune response.
Publication Types: Clinical Trial Controlled Clinical Trial PMID: 11669085 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Government studies Mistletoe: http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/gui/show/NCT00006354
Ann Emerg Med. 1986 Nov;15(11):1320-3. Related Articles, Links
Assessing mistletoe toxicity.
Hall AH, Spoerke DG, Rumack BH.
To assess the potential toxicity of mistletoe ingestion, data were collected on 14 cases of ingestion of one to three berries or one or two leaves of American mistletoe (Phoradendron sp) from 1982 to 1985. Eleven patients ingested berries and three ingested leaves; none became symptomatic. Nine patients were observed at home without intervention except poison center telephone follow-up. Five had induced emesis, including two who were referred to emergency departments for evaluation, where no findings other than ipecac-induced vomiting were noted. Also reviewed were data on a total of 318 cases of mistletoe ingestion reported to the Food and Drug Administration Poison Control case reporting system between 1978 and 1983 (n = 177) and the American Association of Poison Control Centers national data collection system (n = 141) in 1984. The majority remained asymptomatic and no deaths were recorded. These data allow the conclusion that ingestion of one to three mistletoe berries or one or two leaves is unlikely to produce serious toxicity.
PMID: 2877602 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
So, while it might look alright, it is important to find somebody who knows about this and how to use it. There are associated serious risks.
Take Care,
Kim
Thomas Wagner - 29 Aug 2004 16:28 GMT >[...] None >of the patients had complete or partial normalization of ALT or HCV RNA levels >during pre-treatment or treatment period. That's what's so fascinating about the Matthes study - they apparently did achieve undetectable viral loads. I found that the old Medscape link doesn't work, here's another: http://www.thedoctorslounge.net/gastrolounge/articles/hepatitis_mistletoe/
However... from what I found in the German literature about the Matthes studies (http://hepatitis-c.de/mistel1.htm), they were actually done between 1995 and 1999, with the fist publication of the results in 1997. Seven years later, this study is reported as news in the US. Huh?
A lot more research is needed, especially research done by specialists in standard medicine. The Havelhoehe clinic is an anthroposophic clinic, with the treatment molded by the Waldorf philosophy. Not that that's a bad thing, but replication by an unbiased clinic is necessary.
Thomas
 Signature To reach me, complete my last name in the address.
Hepautornagic - 29 Aug 2004 18:10 GMT >Thomas Wagner tomw@capecod.com >Date: 29/08/2004 11:28 AM Eastern Standard Time [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >between 1995 and 1999, with the fist publication of the results in 1997. >Seven years later, this study is reported as news in the US. Huh? I know, and I agree for a change. :)
>A lot more research is needed, especially research done by specialists >in standard medicine. That seems to be the big problem. It seems like an us (conventional) against them (alternative) thing, and nobody is willing to step down, and just study these things together for the sake of the patient, rather it seems one wants the patent for profit, and to bad for the patient. IYKWIM.
The Havelhoehe clinic is an anthroposophic clinic,
>with the treatment molded by the Waldorf philosophy. Not that that's a >bad thing, but replication by an unbiased clinic is necessary. At this date and time though, unlikely.
Kim
>Thomas Agua Girl - 29 Aug 2004 18:32 GMT > That seems to be the big problem. It seems like an us (conventional) against > them (alternative) thing, and nobody is willing to step down, and just study > these things together for the sake of the patient, rather it seems one wants > the patent for profit, and to bad for the patient. IYKWIM. One of the biggest problems with alternative medicine is the difficulty in attributing the successes to the treatment. I know people who have had the pain from arthritis diminish significantly with Reiki. How is that possible? and how do you measure it? I have a friend who can make just about anyone's headache go away with a foot massage...even migraines. How do you attribute the results directly to the action? We know so little about the mind and the bodies ability to heal itself. I don't mean mend broken bones, but things like beating cancer or blocking migraines or even ridding the body of viruses. Your body has the antibodies to fight a lot of illnesses, they just aren't always strong enough. But if you could channel them where needed, strengthen them, infuse them with more energy...then perhaps they could. I just don't see how the medical profession could measure these things.
disclaimer: This is not an endorsement for or against, merely an opinion on ONE reason why there isn't more clinical data on alternative medicines.
AG
Hepautornagic - 29 Aug 2004 21:40 GMT >"Agua Girl" uknown@spamblock.net >Date: 29/08/2004 1:32 PM Eastern Standard Time [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >One of the biggest problems with alternative medicine is the >difficulty in attributing the successes to the treatment. Exactly, and what you speak of below is most impossible to explain in scientific form.
I know
>people who have had the pain from arthritis diminish significantly >with Reiki. How is that possible? and how do you measure it? >I have a friend who can make just about anyone's headache go >away with a foot massage...even migraines. How do you >attribute the results directly to the action? If they could articulate the results, it would be a good thing, because I have had much success with massage therapy. I enjoy many of the things you speak of, but have very little way to explain how or why they work for my pain, or just overall good feeling. It very could be a placebo effect as some would write it off to be, but in my personal experience, I don't think that is it. I believe I am getting fantastic results doing what I am doing, and I feel not only lucky, but I feel great!
>We know so little about the mind and the bodies ability to heal >itself. I don't mean mend broken bones, but things like beating >cancer or blocking migraines or even ridding the body of >viruses. Did you ever see the documentry about the little boy, who had malignant brain tumors? He imagined the marshans from mars would destroy the tumors regularly. Not long after, there were no detection of tumors and he lived healthily thereafter? Explain that!
Your body has the antibodies to fight a lot of illnesses,
>they just aren't always strong enough. But if you could channel >them where needed, strengthen them, infuse them with more [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >disclaimer: This is not an endorsement for or against, merely >an opinion on ONE reason why there isn't more clinical data on alternative medicines.
LOL, I think that was very funny, considering the seriousness of our light hearted discussions around here! You keep that humor, for even in illness, they can't explain why, laughter is the best medicine. I also think that anyone should be able to express thier opinions around here more often.
Stay Strong.
Kim
>AG Thomas Wagner - 29 Aug 2004 22:29 GMT >That seems to be the big problem. It seems like an us (conventional) against >them (alternative) thing, and nobody is willing to step down, and just study >these things together for the sake of the patient, rather it seems one wants >the patent for profit, and to bad for the patient. IYKWIM. You may be right, but I can't understand why no one is willing to take the risk and just try it. The rewards could be significant - a cheap treatment with few sides could make the developers pretty rich in no time. The initial investment wouldn't be insurmountable, just get a few venture capitalists interested. Since the combination of ingredients would be patentable, and any competitor would have to go through the same costly clinical approval cycle, you'd likely be assured sufficient profits to recoup your initial investment several times over. But a VC-financed model of traditional drug development is almost unheard of, even though it's used in the biotech and medical supply fields (stents, for example). Why?
>> but replication by an unbiased clinic is necessary. > >At this date and time though, unlikely. Unfortunately, I have to share your pessimism.
Thomas
 Signature To reach me, complete my last name in the address.
Thip - 29 Aug 2004 23:05 GMT Considering the shape I'm in, and considering that conventional treatment hasn't worked for me, I'M willing to try it!
The hard part is finding someone knowledgeable enough to help me with it.
> >That seems to be the big problem. It seems like an us (conventional) against > >them (alternative) thing, and nobody is willing to step down, and just study [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Thomas Agua Girl - 29 Aug 2004 23:12 GMT > Considering the shape I'm in, and considering that conventional treatment > hasn't worked for me, I'M willing to try it! > > The hard part is finding someone knowledgeable enough to help me with it. Dang...there is a doctor in the pacific northwest that was famous for implementing herbal remedies long before stores starting carrying them. Naturally his name totally escapes me right now (but I will remember). I went to a couple of lectures he did and the guy was light years ahead of peers. I'm going to look through my notes and see if I still have the handouts from the lecture.
AG
Thip - 30 Aug 2004 00:11 GMT That would be absolutely awesome!!!!!
> Dang...there is a doctor in the pacific northwest that was famous for > implementing herbal remedies long before stores starting carrying them. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > AG Michael Arends - 30 Aug 2004 00:51 GMT Agua Girl answered:
>>Considering the shape I'm in, and considering that conventional treatment >>hasn't worked for me, I'M willing to try it! [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > AG PLEASE do!! I'm near seattle.
Michael
Agua Girl - 30 Aug 2004 00:55 GMT > Considering the shape I'm in, and considering that conventional treatment > hasn't worked for me, I'M willing to try it! > > The hard part is finding someone knowledgeable enough to help me with it. Check out..... http://www.keytohealthclinic.com/aboutdrdickson.html
There are also a couple of websites that have links to Naturopathic doctors that I got from Mothers Markets... these look like they might help.
http://www.herbnet.com/practitioners_p1.htm
http://dir.thumbshots.net then look under health, alternative, naturopathy, practitioners and clinics.
Good luck. Hope you find something that works for you!
AG
Julie - 31 Aug 2004 04:04 GMT I live in North Carolina and I can get you deal on a few gallon jugs of white lightning (peach brandy). The stuff is guaranteed to cure you of any illness. The only serious side effect is that the stuff will kill you in the process, but you will die in a very buzzed state. Kill the dragon and not your intelligence, Julie
'
> > Considering the shape I'm in, and considering that conventional treatment > > hasn't worked for me, I'M willing to try it! [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > AG Thip - 31 Aug 2004 10:20 GMT > I live in North Carolina and I can get you deal on a few gallon jugs of > white lightning (peach brandy). The stuff is guaranteed to cure you of any > illness. The only serious side effect is that the stuff will kill you in > the process, but you will die in a very buzzed state. > Kill the dragon and not your intelligence, > Julie I'm in Georgia and we've got the same stuff. If and when the time comes, I might lay back on the porch and get myself a serious buzz. Might's well go out slap-happy, eh?
Julie - 31 Aug 2004 03:58 GMT Oh yeah, and did you know that the Russians can make oil out of a few simple raw ingredients? One of my dearest friends put herself through hell using similar clinics in Mexico and Spain in an attempt to cure her of cancer. She died a miserable death while some quacks got rich off of her and her family.
> >[...] None > >of the patients had complete or partial normalization of ALT or HCV RNA levels [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Thomas Agua Girl - 31 Aug 2004 05:08 GMT > Oh yeah, and did you know that the Russians can make oil out of a few simple > raw ingredients? > One of my dearest friends put herself through hell using similar clinics in > Mexico and Spain in an attempt to cure her of cancer. She died a miserable > death while some quacks got rich off of her and her family. Sorry to hear about your friend. The thing is, Natural Medicine has been around as long as man..much longer than the drug companies. There is an accreditation for ND's and they are regulated just like all the other specialties. I wouldn't suggest going to the witch down the street and letting her concoct some "brew" for you but going to an ND isn't any more dangerous than going to an MD. ...and if modern medicine (or the MD) has failed as in Thips case, seeking an alternative is the next logical step.
AG
Hepautornagic - 31 Aug 2004 08:43 GMT > Oh yeah, and did you know that the Russians can make oil out of a few simple
> raw ingredients? > One of my dearest friends put herself through hell using similar clinics in
> Mexico and Spain in an attempt to cure her of cancer. She died a miserable
> death while some quacks got rich off of her and her family. At the same time, my father went through hell while he was dying of cancer in a conventional hospital. He was only 65. The doctors recommended accupuncture for pain, and pot for nausea, and yeah, they let us bring it to him, take him outside and let him smoke it. They turned a blind eye. When he could no longer go outside they let us give him tea made out of it. It was the only time he had such a good laugh. I remember him saying this stuff is no good, then laughing his head off!
So, really, how does one sort it all out? I don't know how much it cost the tax payers to allow him to stay in the hospital for the last month, and have home care prior to that, the drives to and from radiation etc, but I'm sure none of those in the conventional field, who recommended a couple of unconvetional things didn't get poor from it. :)
Kim
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