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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / August 2004

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Doctor Kickbacks

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Mark Emerson - 26 Aug 2004 02:13 GMT
     Federal investigators study prescription incentive program
     Sunday, June 27, 2004
     Gardiner Harris
     THE NEW YORK TIMES

     The check for $10,000 arrived in the mail unsolicited.
     The doctor who received it from drug maker Schering-Plough said it was
made out to him personally in exchange for an attached "consulting"
agreement that required nothing more than his commitment to prescribe the
company's medicines.
     Two other physicians said in separate interviews that they, too, had
received such checks from Schering-Plough, one of the world's biggest drug
companies.
     "I threw mine away," said the first doctor, who spoke on the condition
of anonymity because of concern about being drawn into a federal inquiry.
     Those checks and others, some said to be for six-figure amounts, are
under investigation by federal prosecutors in Boston as part of a government
crackdown on the industry's marketing tactics.
     Just about every big global drug company - Bristol-Myers Squibb,
Johnson & Johnson and Wyeth - has disclosed in securities filings that it
has received a federal subpoena. Most of them are juggling subpoenas that
stem from several investigations.
     The details of Schering-Plough's tactics - gleaned from interviews
with 20 doctors, industry executives and people close to the investigation -
shed light on the shadowy system of financial lures that pharmaceutical
companies have used to persuade physicians to favor their drugs.
     Schering-Plough's tactics, these people said, included paying doctors
large sums to prescribe its drug for hepatitis C and to take part in
clinical trials that were little more than thinly disguised marketing
efforts that required little effort on the part of doctors.
     Doctors who demonstrated disloyalty by testing other company's drugs,
or even talking favorably about them, risked being barred from
Schering-Plough's money stream.
     Schering-Plough says the activities under investigation occurred
before its new chief executive, Fred Hassan, arrived in April 2003, and that
it has overhauled its marketing efforts to eliminate such inducements.
     At the heart of the various investigations into drug industry
marketing is the question of whether drug companies are persuading doctors,
often through payoffs, to prescribe drugs that patients don't need, shouldn'
t use or for which there might be cheaper alternatives.
     Also, investigators are trying to determine whether the companies are
manipulating prices to cheat the Medicaid and Medicare programs.
     Most of the big drug companies, meanwhile, also are grappling with
lawsuits filed by state attorneys general, industry whistle-blowers and
patient rights groups.
     In many ways, the investigations are a response to the evolution of
the pharmaceutical business, which during the last quarter-century has grown
from a small group of companies peddling a few antibiotics and anti-anxiety
remedies to a $400 billion behemoth that's among the most-profitable
industries on earth.
     Offering treatments for almost any affliction and facing competition
in which each percentage point of market share can represent tens of
millions of dollars, most drug makers now spend twice as much marketing
medicines as they do researching them.
     Their sales teams have changed from a scattering of semi-retired
pharmacists to armies of attractive young people who shower physicians with
attention, food and - until the drug industry recently agreed to end the
practice - expensive gifts, just to get two to three minutes to pitch their
wares.
     A code of conduct adopted in 1990 by the American Medical Association
suggests doctors should not accept any gift worth more than $100, but the
guidelines are widely ignored.
Thomas Wagner - 26 Aug 2004 03:21 GMT
>      The check for $10,000 arrived in the mail unsolicited.

I wish that would happen to me... ;-)

But really, those practices are pretty disgusting. All those claims of
the high drug prices in the US paying for research are just bull:

>[...] most drug makers now spend twice as much marketing
>medicines as they do researching them.

Yuck.

Thomas
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Hepautornagic - 26 Aug 2004 04:43 GMT
>Thomas Wagner tomw@capecod.com
>Date: 25/08/2004 10:21 PM Eastern Standard Time
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>But really, those practices are pretty disgusting.

All those claims of
>the high drug prices in the US paying for research are just bull:

I don't know what the reason for the high prices are, but Canadians get many
drugs shipped in from the manufacture's in the US, then we have a booming
business of patients in the US ordering all the drugs they require from us
because it is so inexpensive here. I'v watched the government in the US say
that our drugs were not as superior, but then I called one of the online
pharmacies, and they said they get a good portion of them from the US and don't
know why they are cheaper in Canada.  It's funny it really is.
North Pharmacy is who I was in touch with and my friends (many of them) in the
US order thier drugs from them.

Kim

>>[...] most drug makers now spend twice as much marketing
>>medicines as they do researching them.
>
>Yuck.
>
>Thomas
lucky - 27 Aug 2004 03:52 GMT
I think they are cheaper because the Canadian government sets price
maximums.

Signature

lucky

> >Thomas Wagner tomw@capecod.com
> >Date: 25/08/2004 10:21 PM Eastern Standard Time
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> >
> >Thomas
Hepautornagic - 27 Aug 2004 13:44 GMT
> Doctor Kickbacks
>From: "lucky" lucky@cards.org
>Date: 26/08/2004 10:52 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <%lxXc.67276$Fg5.46309@attbi_s53>
>
>I think they are cheaper because the Canadian government sets price maximums.

We do? I don't know how it works, but I know there are huge price differences
and right now, because of that millions of Americans order thier medications
from here. Some of the states are trying to stop it.

Kim
Agua Girl - 26 Aug 2004 15:15 GMT
> > Doctor Kickbacks
> >From: "lucky" lucky@cards.org
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and right now, because of that millions of Americans order thier medications
> from here. Some of the states are trying to stop it.

Actually the feds are trying to stop it.  Some of the states are actually
petitioning to get it changed.  I know our health plans look different
but the truth is the government does pick up a big tab.  Since the states
have to subsidize health care they absolutely want the drugs to be
cheaper.
The "argument" is the FDA doesn't regulate the source.
This country is extremely lawsuit happy (I don't know this but I would
bet it was an Americans idea to sue Scherring over the side effects)
and since all these court cases costs everyone, the
feds feel they have every right to want to regulate.
Another reason is drug companies have to do a lot more testing for
the US.  It COSTS more to market a drug in the US than it does most
anywhere else.  Why do you think everyone had combo therapy
long before the US.

It's bull..and hopefully it will change some day but if it doesn't
I'm still not leaving :-)

AG
Hepautornagic - 27 Aug 2004 16:20 GMT
>Agua Girl" uknown@spamblock.net
>Date: 26/08/2004 10:15 AM Eastern Standard Time
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>cheaper.
>The "argument" is the FDA doesn't regulate the source.

I'm not really sure what that means AG. Much of our prescriptions are
subsidized by the government also. For instance, if a person is on welfare or
disability, the medication is a total cost of $2.00 provided it is an approved
med in thier books. Newer ones, you have to fill out forms and stuff to get
approved. If that is subsidy, then even though our prescriptions are less
expensive, our gov't subsidises them in many cases as well.

>This country is extremely lawsuit happy (I don't know this but I would
>bet it was an Americans idea to sue Scherring over the side effects)

Oh, no doubt. I thought they were ambulance chasers personally.  It is
virtually impossible to have a successful case like that here. There was a good
suit for the tainted blood cdns recieved, but I'm not sure who initiated it. I
do know that the lawyers got a fine share in that huge settlement to compensate
victims who recieved bad blood. But that was a ligitimate lawsuit as a test was
available but not used. I think it was a gov't inquiry to start with, and
eventually led to a law suit.

>and since all these court cases costs everyone, the
>feds feel they have every right to want to regulate.
>Another reason is drug companies have to do a lot more testing for
>the US.

Do you mean the rules are much stricter in the US then CA when it comes to
testing drugs? I don't understand that. We are pretty stiff here.

It COSTS more to market a drug in the US than it does most
>anywhere else.  

Why? Marketing is advertising, why should it cost more there then here?

Why do you think everyone had combo therapy
>long before the US.

Hmmmmmmm, took Canada longer to get the PEG. You got it approved before we did.
Both Schering and Roches.

>It's bull..and hopefully it will change some day but if it doesn't
>I'm still not leaving :-)

LOL, I go both ways, both sides of the border, love both countries. I wasn't
touting the canadian horn, we are screwed as can be when it comes to health
care imo, but... I love both countries and work in both and have had health
care in both countries. If I were real sick, I would like the option of paying
for private care! We don't really have that option yet, however it is becomming
a 2 tier system fast so who knows?

Kim

>AG
Agua Girl - 27 Aug 2004 05:20 GMT
> >Agua Girl" uknown@spamblock.net
> >Date: 26/08/2004 10:15 AM Eastern Standard Time
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> approved. If that is subsidy, then even though our prescriptions are less
> expensive, our gov't subsidises them in many cases as well.

I mean that if you get a drug from a pharmacy in the US, that pharmacy
has been inspected by the FDA and adheres to it's rules.  The regulations
are there to prevent mistakes (or limit them) and fraud.  I am sure Canada
has regulations that are just as strict but since the FDA didn't get to put
there stamp on it..they don't want to end up responsible for any
errors.  (guess they have enough of their own).  We expect our
government to protect us from the big bad medical industry...the FDA
doesn't feel it can protect us if we go outside their control.

> >This country is extremely lawsuit happy (I don't know this but I would
> >bet it was an Americans idea to sue Scherring over the side effects)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> available but not used. I think it was a gov't inquiry to start with, and
> eventually led to a law suit.

Heck, we paid a woman who sued McDonalds because she spilled hot
coffee in her lap and it burned.  DUH.... now they have to print "coffee is
hot" on cups.
Ironically, the accident that put me in the hospital in 78 where I probably
got this damn virus was someone elses fault.  I did sue them but settled
for what I considered at the time a reasonable compensation.  Didn't make
me rich..not even close..but it paid for my lost wages, all my medical
bills and replaced my poor smashed up motorcycle.  Even got a couple
extra grand for the 21 inches of scars I now sport...but I was never going
to be a model or a ballet dancer and after rehab I could play the piano as
well as I could before..so it seemed fair.  Little did I know :-)
But it's not really the other guys fault, it's not really the hospitals
since they
didn't know to test for it in 78.  Just one of those things.  Guess they
could
have let me bleed to death :-)

> >and since all these court cases costs everyone, the
> >feds feel they have every right to want to regulate.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Do you mean the rules are much stricter in the US then CA when it comes to
> testing drugs? I don't understand that. We are pretty stiff here.

I don't know about Canada but I do know that it requires more data
to get approved in the US..although that is lightening up a tad.  It's not
that the tests are harder, but it requires more historical info so you can't
just
come in with 6 months worth of data.

>  It COSTS more to market a drug in the US than it does most
> >anywhere else.
>
> Why? Marketing is advertising, why should it cost more there then here?

When I say market I mean the cost of bringing a product to market, not
the advertising cost.  Factor in a year worth of test rather than 6 months,
all kinds of red tape, the 15 pages of disclaimers that seem to come with
everything ..and of course the "donation" to the politicians campaign to
prevent all that red tape from tying up approval even longer :-)

> Why do you think everyone had combo therapy
> >long before the US.
>
> Hmmmmmmm, took Canada longer to get the PEG. You got it approved before we did.
> Both Schering and Roches.

Really?  what a shocker.  It was being used in Europe when I was first
diagnosed but the figured it was 6 months away for the US.  Took even
longer than that for it to show up on my HMO's drug list.

> >It's bull..and hopefully it will change some day but if it doesn't
> >I'm still not leaving :-)
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> for private care! We don't really have that option yet, however it is becomming
> a 2 tier system fast so who knows?

I didn't think you were waving the maple leaf in my face or anything and I
don't want it to sound like I think my government is more thorough.  They
are just more interested in covering their butts than they are getting us
affordable health care.  HMO's..the kind where you sign up with a specific
medical group and that group gets X $$ for you whether you ever use
it or not...but doesn't get much extra when you do...sucks.  It's fine for
just
routine stuff but the minute you need an x-ray it's like pulling teeth (and
don't
get me started on dentistry <g>)  It took them 3 years to accurately
diagnose
a ruptured disc in my back.  Kept giving me vicodin and sending me home.
Guess they need to save up to afford that expensive MRI :-)  .  I gotta say
I am glad I only have to pay 125.00 a month for my meds rather than the
4 grand it's costing the insurance...but come the first of the year I am
dumping
my employer paid for HMO and buying my own insurance.  Costs more
but at least I can get an x-ray next time my knee swells to the size of a
grapefruit.

AG
Hepautornagic - 28 Aug 2004 13:57 GMT
>Doctor Kickbacks
>From: "Agua Girl" uknown@spamblock.net
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>I mean that if you get a drug from a pharmacy in the US, that pharmacy
>has been inspected by the FDA and adheres to it's rules.

Oh, I get it. Sorry I did misunderstand. Ours are inspected by the FDA too.

The regulations
>are there to prevent mistakes (or limit them) and fraud.  I am sure Canada
>has regulations that are just as strict but since the FDA didn't get to put
>there stamp on it

This is an interesting read regarding that matter:
http://chinese-school.netfirms.com/other-article-Canadian-pharmacy.html
I think that is why some states are fighting to keep consumers buying thier
meds from Canada.

..they don't want to end up responsible for any
>errors.  (guess they have enough of their own).  We expect our
>government to protect us from the big bad medical industry...the FDA
>doesn't feel it can protect us if we go outside their control.

Makes sense.

>> >This country is extremely lawsuit happy (I don't know this but I would
>> >bet it was an Americans idea to sue Scherring over the side effects)
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>could
>have let me bleed to death :-)

I'm sorry for that. My circumstance was not near as life threatening. It was a
miscarriage, and they were not even sure at the time if they should give me
blood or not, they did.  Lucky you were compensated for the accident, and I
guess I'm lucky I was compensated for the bad blood.

The bad blood scandal that happened here, was a result of the powers that be,
had a test to screen the blood for HCV, but they never used it because a cost
was involved. 0.10 cents per unit. If you ever have time or are interested, you
can look it up in google under the "Krever" report. You'd be surprised at what
happened and angered at the neglect, but you'll also get a pretty good history
of the entire hep c scandal in Canada.

>> >and since all these court cases costs everyone, the
>> >feds feel they have every right to want to regulate.
>> >Another reason is drug companies have to do a lot more testing for
>> >the US.

I was not aware of that.

>> Do you mean the rules are much stricter in the US then CA when it comes to
>> testing drugs? I don't understand that. We are pretty stiff here.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>everything ..and of course the "donation" to the politicians campaign to
>prevent all that red tape from tying up approval even longer :-)

Yep, we are very familiar with the red tape. The only way Canadians could get
PEG of any kind here, long after it was approved and being prescribed in the
US, was to be involved in a Clinical trial. Ours got here maybe a year after
yours was approved and being sold and prescribed. Copegasys to my knowledge is
still not approved, if it is, it is recently.

>> Why do you think everyone had combo therapy
>> >long before the US.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>diagnosed but the figured it was 6 months away for the US.  Took even
>longer than that for it to show up on my HMO's drug list.

Ours is not even on the drug list yet. You have to fill out a bunch of special
forms to get approval. That being said, there's even a "care not cash" program
for people who were infected as a result of blood transfusions, and they
haven't even been paid for thier drug costs yet. The funds still sit in an
account getting intrest! It is very frustrating.

>> >It's bull..and hopefully it will change some day but if it doesn't
>> >I'm still not leaving :-)
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>diagnose
>a ruptured disc in my back.  Kept giving me vicodin and sending me home.

That is where our care differs. If we go to a doc, we can have an xray right
there in his/her clinic the same day, or just go down the street to another lab
and have one at no cost. Good luck getting prescribed a narcotic though, unless
the xray reveals something.

>Guess they need to save up to afford that expensive MRI :-)  .  I gotta say
>I am glad I only have to pay 125.00 a month for my meds rather than the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>but at least I can get an x-ray next time my knee swells to the size of a
>grapefruit.

:) Good luck with all that, and treatment. IMO, There are times when I am home,
and I want health care immediately, I have to wait months sometimes to see a
specialist!  It does not matter how much money I have, or earn... it's equal.
So, that sucks. In the states, I can see one in a week if I'm paying.

Take Care,

Kim

>AG
Hepautornagic - 28 Aug 2004 14:35 GMT
AG Wrote:

>> Why do you think everyone had combo therapy
>> >long before the US.

I'm not sure what year combo, or Pegasys was approved in the US. Pegasys was
approved for sale here last summer! I don't know when PegIntronA was approved,
I can't find anything on the year.

http://www.pmprb-cepmb.gc.ca/english/View.asp?x=324&mp=117

Brand Name: Pegasys
Generic Name: peginterferon alfa-2b injection
DIN: 02248077 pre-filed syringe (180 mcg / 0.5mL)        02248078 single-use
vial (180 mcg / 1mL)
Patentee: Hoffmann-La Roche LimitedIndication - as per product monograph:
For the treatment of chronic hepatitis C in adult patients without cirrhosis
and in adult patients with compensated cirrhosis.Notice of

Compliance: August 13, 2003
   
Date of First Sale: August 14, 2003
----------

There are a few publications I found under the sale of cross border drugs
CA/US, but it's all politicians trying to justify, why or why not getting them
at a cheaper rate. I could not find any information that was solid stating
Canadian drugs were insuperior. If I find it though, I will post it. I don't
think it matters, I doubt you could order HCV drugs anyhow.

Kim
Agua Girl - 27 Aug 2004 19:01 GMT
> There are a few publications I found under the sale of cross border drugs
> CA/US, but it's all politicians trying to justify, why or why not getting them
> at a cheaper rate. I could not find any information that was solid stating
> Canadian drugs were insuperior. If I find it though, I will post it. I don't
> think it matters, I doubt you could order HCV drugs anyhow.

I don't you will find anything saying the Canadian drugs are inferior or
superior,,...technically they should be the same.  The argument arises
from the sourcing.  I don't buy the drugs from the manufacturer, I buy
them from a pharmacy.  Since my government doesn't have any say
as to the controls in said pharmacy unless it's within the US..they
can't be sure the drugs are the same.  I'm sure it has more to do
with protecting the big dollar industry in the US but they aren't going to
come
right out and say that.

I'll take a look at those links.  It does sound interesting...but today is
Saturday...weekends don't have the same meaning on tx as they used
to :-).  10 shots to go.

AG
Gordo Mondragon - 28 Aug 2004 18:25 GMT
[...]

> Heck, we paid a woman who sued McDonalds because she spilled hot
> coffee in her lap and it burned.  DUH.... now they have to print "coffee is
> hot" on cups.

While I agree there are some ridiculous lawsuits that are successful
(but nowhere near the number that the
corporation-representing-US-party-in-power would have you believe) this
isn't one of them.  It's a pet peeve of mine to see it brought up as an
example of one.

You buy a cup of coffee at a drive through which you accidentally spill
on yourself, resulting in seconds in 3rd degree burns in your crotch
which require skin grafts.  I don't think that most people know that
that's a risk with McDonald's coffee.  McDonald's had had over 700
complaints of burns and had settled for substantial $$s in the past, yet
their coffee remained more then 20deg f hotter than their competitors.  
Hot enough to cause 3rd degree burns in two to three seconds, as opposed
to about 20 seconds for coffee 20deg cooler.

I agreed with the $ amount for the conscious negligence.  I don't agree
with the lottery-type method of awarding it to one person out of many
victims.
 
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