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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Hepatitis / July 2004Lunch, Brain Fog, and Fatigue
At lunch yesterday, one of my co-workers.....a nurse and mother of three, watched me trying to eat for a while. Then while laughing, she scooted over and told me she'd had lots of practice helping her own kids cut their food and she could help me too. I had been sitting their having trouble cutting up my meat and being so spacey that I was having trouble getting my hands around the stupid plastic knife and fork. I thought I was being so quiet and unnoticeable. She knew I was having an "interferon" moment. I'm still laughin about it the next day. It wouldn't have been that funny except that it was hamburger steak. Who has trouble cutting up hamburger steak past the age of five? Apparently , folkes done in by interferon and ribavarin may have this experience. LOL. SusieQ : ) > At lunch yesterday, one of my co-workers.....a nurse and mother of three, > watched me trying to eat for a while. Then while laughing, she scooted over [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > except that it was hamburger steak. Who has trouble cutting up hamburger > steak past the age of five? Hi Susie, Your fog & fatigue are maybe being intensified by your diet, i.e. hamburger. Although protein is important in your diet, red meat and especially hamburger because of its high fat content is the worst choice you could make. Try broiled chicken and fish instead of hamburger and its ilk. Eat lots of fresh fruit and vegetables. Scrap coffee and black tea, drink green tea. Lots of water. Do some research on nutrition & the liver. I've noticed your posts over the past months and you're intelligent, funny and seem to be an all-round good person who doesn't deserve to suffer any more than necessary with the Evil Drugs. I wish you all the best! Waterspider Haven't you heard of ground sirloin. The fat content is far less than regular hamburger? I am with heppiechick on her saying, Poor nutrition is better than no nutrition". hoof > > At lunch yesterday, one of my co-workers.....a nurse and mother of three, > > watched me trying to eat for a while. Then while laughing, she scooted [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Waterspider  Signature{ Disclaimer: Non Existent words contained within this poast were created in response to the Paperwork Reduction Act.} {If you have a problem with that, take it to the Environmentalists Complaint Dept.} [NOTE: It has come to my attention that water pressure booster pumps are available to city dwellers. Because of this new development, notify your local Environmentalist Complaint Dept. to begin a campaign to *ban* the sale of these pumps to those living within a municipality. (They don't need more water pressure just so their sprinklers can run water down the sewers.)] The above is a public service announcement from the Committee for *Responsible* Use of Water Pressure Booster Pumps.] A Free Thinker. >Your fog & fatigue are maybe being intensified by your diet, i.e. hamburger. >Although protein is important in your diet, red meat and especially >hamburger because of its high fat content is the worst choice you could >make. Try broiled chicken and fish instead of hamburger and its ilk. Eat >lots of fresh fruit and vegetables. Scrap coffee and black tea, drink green >tea. Lots of water. Do some research on nutrition & the liver. SOME people are negatively affected by fat or high protein during treatment - but definitely not all. Fog and fatigue are normal side effects of interferon and ribavirin, and usually can't be significantly influenced by diet. Enjoying a nice steak dinner might help more to lift the mood and battle fatigue than all "sensible" food. As for coffee... you probably missed the recent study results that showed coffee to have a significant protective effect on the liver. It's somewhat different during treatment, but the general recommendation against coffee or black tea is bogus. People who are used to caffeine are NOT dehydrated by drinking it (the drink itself contains enough liquid to offset any dehydrating effects). Green tea contains caffeine as well, and most people I know can't stand the taste. Especially with treatment, it's a lot better to drink lots of something that tastes good than to force yourself to drink a bit of crappy colored water with marginal health effects. From Medline: Caffeine, body fluid-electrolyte balance, and exercise performance Armstrong LE, Departments of Kinesiology, Nutritional Sciences, and Physiology & Neurobiology, University of Connecticut [...] Recreational enthusiasts and athletes often are advised to abstain from consuming caffeinated beverages (CB). The dual purposes of this review are to (a) critique controlled investigations regarding the effects of caffeine on dehydration and exercise performance, and (b) ascertain whether abstaining from CB is scientifically and physiologically justifiable. The literature indicates that caffeine consumption stimulates a mild diuresis similar to water, but there is no evidence of a fluid-electrolyte imbalance that is detrimental to exercise performance or health. Investigations comparing caffeine (100-680 mg) to water or placebo seldom found a statistical difference in urine volume. In the 10 studies reviewed, consumption of a CB resulted in 0-84% retention of the initial volume ingested, whereas consumption of water resulted in 0-81% retention. Further, tolerance to caffeine reduces the likelihood that a detrimental fluid-electrolyte imbalance will occur. The scientific literature suggests that athletes and recreational enthusiasts will not incur detrimental fluid-electrolyte imbalances if they consume CB in moderation and eat a typical U.S. diet. Sedentary members of the general public should be a less risk than athletes because their fluid losses via sweating are smaller. Thomas SignatureTo reach me, complete my last name in the address. Thomas, Can you point me to the original article? I searched for stuff like this last week and got nowhere. Tried medline today and same. Obviously you get water from coffee and caffeinated drinks. My doc swears this is impossible. If it was impossible, I'd be dead, never having drunk a glass of water in my life before treatment. Keith >>Your fog & fatigue are maybe being intensified by your diet, i.e. hamburger. >>Although protein is important in your diet, red meat and especially [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > >Thomas >Thomas, >Can you point me to the original article? I searched for stuff like >this last week and got nowhere. Tried medline today and same. >Obviously you get water from coffee and caffeinated drinks. My doc >swears this is impossible. If it was impossible, I'd be dead, never >having drunk a glass of water in my life before treatment. It's fascinating how health myths sustain themselves among supposedly intelligent people like doctors and nurses. Caffeine dehydrates, period. No one actually tries to think this through (it isn't very logical once you start to think about it) or check the literature. After all, everybody knows it, so it must be true. I got to the original article through a search, so the URL won't be valid for you. I did a boolean Medline search for "caffeine AND dehydration", and it was the third article I got. There's another study a bit further down: "The effect of caffeinated, non-caffeinated, caloric and non-caloric beverages on hydration (Oct. 2000) [...] CONCLUSIONS: This preliminary study found no significant differences in the effect of various combinations of beverages on hydration status of healthy adult males. Advising people to disregard caffeinated beverages as part of the daily fluid intake is not substantiated by the results of this study. [...]" "Caffeine and exercise: metabolism, endurance and performance (2001) [...] There is no evidence that caffeine ingestion before exercise leads to dehydration, ion imbalance, or any other adverse effects. [...]" Thomas SignatureTo reach me, complete my last name in the address. > It's fascinating how health myths sustain themselves among supposedly > intelligent people like doctors and nurses. Caffeine dehydrates, period. > No one actually tries to think this through (it isn't very logical once > you start to think about it) or check the literature. After all, > everybody knows it, so it must be true. How many *years* were *you* propogating that particular *myth* yourself Thomas? *snigger* > I got to the original article through a search, so the URL won't be > valid for you. I did a boolean Medline search for "caffeine AND > dehydration", and it was the third article I got. Hell, that explains it. You *invariably post the *second* article you find. *snigger* "Thomas Wagner" <tomw@capecod.com> wrote > <snippage> > [...] CONCLUSIONS: This preliminary study found no significant > differences in the effect of various combinations of beverages on > hydration status of healthy adult males. Healthy adult males and those with hep c do not have the same nutritional requirements, and they have a number of differences in what they should and should not consume. WS >Healthy adult males and those with hep c do not have the same nutritional >requirements, and they have a number of differences in what they should and >should not consume. The nutritional requirements for both groups, at least as far as hydration is concerned, are equivalent. HCV does not impair renal function. There also are no special dietary requirements for those with Hep C who don't suffer from severe liver damage (cirrhosis) other than avoiding certain liver-toxic drugs, supplements, and herbs. Coffee is not among those, on the contrary. Thomas SignatureTo reach me, complete my last name in the address. > The nutritional requirements for both groups, at least as far as > hydration is concerned, are equivalent. HCV does not impair renal > function. There also are no special dietary requirements for those with > Hep C who don't suffer from severe liver damage (cirrhosis) other than > avoiding certain liver-toxic drugs, supplements, and herbs. Coffee is > not among those, on the contrary. Despite the fact that *you* sustained the myth that it was for many years. *snigger* > As for coffee... you probably missed the recent study results that > showed coffee to have a significant protective effect on the liver. It's [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > than to force yourself to drink a bit of crappy colored water with > marginal health effects. In other words *Stoopid* You were posting *crap advise* for all that time, but you don't have the *balls* to admit you were wrong, you just change your tune *again* ??? *snigger* And you think nobody noticed? Hell, you're the laughing stock of the year *Monkey Boi* > >Your fog & fatigue are maybe being intensified by your diet, i.e. hamburger. > >Although protein is important in your diet, red meat and especially [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > effects of interferon and ribavirin, and usually can't be significantly > influenced by diet. I agree, Thomas, thus the "maybe" in my statement. Enjoying a nice steak dinner might help more to lift > the mood and battle fatigue than all "sensible" food. With a nice bottle of chardonnay too? That would sure lift my mood... > As for coffee... you probably missed the recent study results that > showed coffee to have a significant protective effect on the liver. It's > somewhat different during treatment, but the general recommendation > against coffee or black tea is bogus. People who are used to caffeine > are NOT dehydrated by drinking it (the drink itself contains enough > liquid to offset any dehydrating effects). You're right, this is the first I've heard of caffeine not causing dehydration. Green tea contains caffeine > as well, and most people I know can't stand the taste. Well, here's one who really enjoys it and would like to point out that the caffeine content is far less than that of coffee and black tea. Especially with > treatment, it's a lot better to drink lots of something that tastes good > than to force yourself to drink a bit of Yeah! Bring on the wine! crappy colored water IYHO > marginal health effects. You may have missed a couple of studies on this one. > From Medline: <some gentle snippage> > Recreational enthusiasts and athletes often are advised to abstain from > consuming caffeinated beverages (CB). The dual purposes of this review [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > retention of the initial volume ingested, whereas consumption of water > resulted in 0-81% retention. Links to the 10 studies? Further, tolerance to caffeine reduces the > likelihood that a detrimental fluid-electrolyte imbalance will occur. > The scientific literature suggests that athletes and recreational > enthusiasts will not incur detrimental fluid-electrolyte imbalances if > they consume CB in moderation and eat a typical U.S. diet. I don't think a "typical US diet" is recommended for people with liver disease either. Sedentary > members of the general public should be a less risk than athletes > because their fluid losses via sweating are smaller. What about people with hep C? Sorry, Thomas, I'm not buying into this one until I see more (hard) evidence. Good to see you, though, and debate a point of fact with you. Hope you're doing well, Waterspider >I agree, Thomas, thus the "maybe" in my statement. A maybe followed immediately by ".. is the worst choice you could make". In my experience, the body tells you pretty clearly what it wants and doesn't want during treatment. Sometimes just the thought of a steak made me nauseous, other days it made my mouth water. The most important point during treatment is eating anything at all, no matter whether it's considered "good" or "bad" food. If it's cheeseburger exclusively each and every day, I'd get concerned, too. But that's pretty unlikely to happen (again, just in my experience). >Enjoying a nice steak dinner might help more to lift >> the mood and battle fatigue than all "sensible" food. > >With a nice bottle of chardonnay too? That would sure lift my mood... Oh please, not that discussion again. You're clear, you can go ahead and have a bottle. Drinking during treatment is pure idiocy, however. >You're right, this is the first I've heard of caffeine not causing >dehydration. I've seen it mentioned a few times. >Well, here's one who really enjoys it and would like to point out that the >caffeine content is far less than that of coffee and black tea. Yes, that's true (about the same as a glass of Coke). As for taste - some people enjoy the strangest things... ;-) I tried a number of green teas, and one was actually bearable (a green Darjeeling). None came even close to being enjoyable. But that's just me. My point was that it is really irrelevant what kind of NON-ALCOHOLIC beverage you drink as long as you DO drink. Lots of sugary sodas or juices aren't great because of the empty calories, but still better than dehydration. >>crappy colored water > >IYHO He he, IMAO indeed. >> marginal health effects. > >You may have missed a couple of studies on this one. Not really - but the effects are really marginal unless you drink lots and lots over decades. The positive effects of coffee on the liver are actually a lot clearer than the effects of green tea. >Links to the 10 studies? How about you look for a link to a study that actually showed dehydration caused by coffee? >I don't think a "typical US diet" is recommended for people with liver >disease either. A typical US diet isn't just hamburger and fries. Give people some credit. >What about people with hep C? Sorry, Thomas, I'm not buying into this one >until I see more (hard) evidence. Well, it would be nice to see some evidence for the recommendation to stop caffeine consumption during treatment. There doesn't seem to be even one study examining the effects. It's just that everybody knows that coffee dehydrates, so it must be true... >Good to see you, though, and debate a point of fact with you. Hope you're >doing well, Ah, I've always enjoyed debating with you, I've learned a lot in the process. It's good to have you back. Thomas SignatureTo reach me, complete my last name in the address. > >With a nice bottle of chardonnay too? That would sure lift my mood... > > Oh please, not that discussion again. You're clear, you can go ahead and > have a bottle. Drinking during treatment is pure idiocy, however. Like you told us drinking *coffee* was pure idiocy too, but now you've changed your mind. *snigger* > Lots of sugary sodas or > juices aren't great because of the empty calories, but still better than > dehydration. *snigger* > Not really - but the effects are really marginal unless you drink lots > and lots over decades. The positive effects of coffee on the liver are > actually a lot clearer than the effects of green tea. You have the results of some studies to back this up or is this just something your *pretty red shirt* came up with? > A typical US diet isn't just hamburger and fries. Give people some > credit. How can you describe anything as "typical" in a country that covers several time zones and has climates regions varying from hot and arrid to wet and humid and everything else in between. What a *stoopid* you are Thomas. > Well, it would be nice to see some evidence for the recommendation to > stop caffeine consumption during treatment. There doesn't seem to be > even one study examining the effects. It's just that everybody knows > that coffee dehydrates, so it must be true... Everybody knows that you wear a *pretty red shirt* too, and everybody *but* *you* certainly knows that the liver is a gland. *snigger* > Ah, I've always enjoyed debating with you, I've learned a lot in the > process. Yes, like you learned a lot about *coffee* because you were debating with Robin, but you don't give her the credit do you? Starwars, you know what? You're just plain downright arrogant and rude. But that wont phase you will it? Most self-centered egotistical people see others remarks about them as jealousy. But I will say this, with a stalker like you on a site I'm not sure I'd be willing to make this a regular stop. You take away from the healing process all in the effort to come across as smug and intelligent. By your acts of self promotion you only come across as the first. You sir(or ma'am)are as transparent as glass. Maybe you should have been breastfed longer, I dunno, but you sure act like something is missing in your make-up... Let it go starwars, who do you think you're fooling? Paul2 > > >With a nice bottle of chardonnay too? That would sure lift my mood... > > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > Yes, like you learned a lot about *coffee* because you were debating with > Robin, but you don't give her the credit do you? >Starwars, you know what? >You're just plain downright arrogant and rude. But that wont phase you will >it? >Most self-centered egotistical people see others remarks about them as >jealousy. Unfortunately, you've hit the nail on the head. >But I will say this, with a stalker like you on a site I'm not sure I'd be >willing to make this a regular stop. You shouldn't let the terrorists win. Simply add him to your killfile, that will work wonders for your peace of mind. >You take away from the healing process all in the effort to come across as >smug and intelligent. >By your acts of self promotion you only come across as the first. He'll never realize that as long as some people (like Robin and Hoof) still defend and support his behavior, citing old grievances none of the current regulars were involved in. >You sir(or ma'am)are as transparent as glass. >Maybe you should have been breastfed longer, I dunno, but you sure act like >something is missing in your make-up... > >Let it go starwars, who do you think you're fooling? He doesn't think, that's the problem. Thomas SignatureTo reach me, complete my last name in the address. > You shouldn't let the terrorists win. Simply add him to your killfile, > that will work wonders for your peace of mind. Yes, and don't forget to mention it loud and often. *snigger* > He'll never realize that as long as some people (like Robin and Hoof) > still defend and support his behavior, citing old grievances none of the > current regulars were involved in. *snigger* You seem confused again Thomas. But maybe you have Maryem and Ham in your killfile too? *snigger* > He doesn't think, that's the problem. I think it is someone who had his photograph done in a *pretty red shirt* who doesn't think. On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:26:22 GMT, "Paul2" <cantdojustcant@home.maybesometime>, in message ID <ycvMc.1765$03a.1751@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, in the newsgroup alt.support.hepatitis-c wrote: >Starwars, you know what? >You're just plain downright arrogant and rude. But that wont phase you will [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >But I will say this, with a stalker like you on a site I'm not sure I'd be >willing to make this a regular stop. By quoting him/her, you give them an audience. Ignore the trolls. They only want a response and any response will do. If you need to know how to use a kill filter, there should be info in your software's help files. SignaturePaul Use the reply by email facility in your newsreader to send email > If you need to know how to use a kill filter, there should be info in > your software's help files. > -- > Nancy Boi Hey tell you what, to make things easier *We* will refer to *you* as *Nancy-Boi* Now Nancy-Boi, tell him how easy it is. You just right-click and then click kill-file. Then you make at least one post a week saying how you have the "trolls" killfiled and how they don't affect you. *snigger* > Starwars, you know what? > You're just *blah blah blah* You know what? Thomas could have apologised a year ago but he refused. Instead he left in a sulk and then returned because he *never learns* Now please stop your *whining* You've gone and got teardrops all over my keyboard. >Like you told us drinking *coffee* was pure idiocy too, but now you've changed >your mind. I didn't. Cite the post where I stated that coffee was bad for the liver. >How can you describe anything as "typical" in a country that covers several >time zones and has climates regions varying from hot and arrid to wet and humid >and everything else in between. What a *stoopid* you are Thomas. I didn't call anything typical, the study I cited did. >Everybody knows that you wear a *pretty red shirt* too, and everybody *but* >*you* certainly knows that the liver is a gland. Cite the post where I stated that it wasn't. >Yes, like you learned a lot about *coffee* because you were debating with >Robin, but you don't give her the credit do you? I didn't debate coffee with Robin, I debated alcohol. You obviously have me confused with someone else. I clean up my killfile, and there you are, being a moron, as usual. Can't get your facts straight, can't keep people apart, trying to show off as sooper-smart and instead showing all the world what an idiot you are. snigger indeed... Back into the killfile you go. Thomas SignatureTo reach me, complete my last name in the address. > I clean up my killfile, and there you are, To imagine that should should choose this very time to clean up your killfile? *snigger* > Back into the killfile you go. Oh goody. I made the kill-file again. *snigger* With a nice bottle of chardonnay too? That would sure lift my mood... Oh please, not that discussion again. You're clear, you can go ahead and have a bottle. Drinking during treatment is pure idiocy, however. Like you told us drinking *coffee* was pure idiocy too, but now you've changed your mind. *snigger* Lots of sugary sodas or juices aren't great because of the empty calories, but still better than dehydration. *snigger* Not really - but the effects are really marginal unless you drink lots and lots over decades. The positive effects of coffee on the liver are actually a lot clearer than the effects of green tea. You have the results of some studies to back this up or is this just something your *pretty red shirt* came up with? A typical US diet isn't just hamburger and fries. Give people some credit. How can you describe anything as "typical" in a country that covers several time zones and has climates regions varying from hot and arrid to wet and humid and everything else in between. What a *stoopid* you are Thomas. Well, it would be nice to see some evidence for the recommendation to stop caffeine consumption during treatment. There doesn't seem to be even one study examining the effects. It's just that everybody knows that coffee dehydrates, so it must be true... Everybody knows that you wear a *pretty red shirt* too, and everybody *but* *you* certainly knows that the liver is a gland. *snigger* Ah, I've always enjoyed debating with you, I've learned a lot in the process. Yes, like you learned a lot about *coffee* because you were debating with Robin, but you don't give her the credit do you? /////////// You should run and hide, Starwars. Your posts make you look totally stooopid and angry. Bossy took a crap and it landed on your forehead. That makes you a pieface. Elmo http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile > You should run and hide, Starwars. Your posts make you look totally > stooopid and angry. You mean I should announce how I am going to leave this newsgroup because somebody said something I didn't like? I wonder who does things like that? Let me think now and make a list: Elmo Lana Elmo Thomas Elmo Yaknow that didn't take too much thinking at all. How is Loretta, by the way? *snigger* Re: Lunch, Brain Fog, and Fatigue Group: alt.support.hepatitis-c Date: Sun, Jul 25, 2004, 9:06am (CDT+7) From: nobody@tatooine.homelinux.net (starwars) In article <18267-4102D8E3-7@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net> elmoemerson@webtv.net wrote: You should run and hide, Starwars. Your posts make you look totally stooopid and angry. You mean I should announce how I am going to leave this newsgroup because somebody said something I didn't like? I wonder who does things like that? Let me think now and make a list: Elmo Lana Elmo Thomas Elmo Yaknow that didn't take too much thinking at all. How is Loretta, by the way? *snigger* ////////////// You've got it wrong, sh.t-for-brains. I only left TWICE. ahahahahahaha You talking about Lotitta? I ain't heard from her in about 6 months or so. How about you? 'snigger, snigger' http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile > >I agree, Thomas, thus the "maybe" in my statement. > A maybe followed immediately by ... is still a maybe. The most important > point during treatment is eating anything at all, no matter whether it's > considered "good" or "bad" food. Well, yes, one shouldn't starve themselves to death, but assuming that one had somewhat of an appetite left, baked chicken breast is certainly a better choice than pan-fried steak. > >Enjoying a nice steak dinner might help more to lift > >> the mood and battle fatigue than all "sensible" food. > >With a nice bottle of chardonnay too? That would sure lift my mood... > Oh please, not that discussion again. You're clear, you can go ahead and > have a bottle. Drinking during treatment is pure idiocy, however. I know. And it would be pure idiocy for me to resume drinking even though my treatment was successful because I have liver damage (as do most people who have had hep c for a couple or few decades before treatment). Yes, I also realize that treatment does, in some cases, allow the liver to regenerate itself to lesser levels of fibrosis, but I'm pretty sure that I'm not back at 0 and I sure ain't going in for another biopsy! > >You're right, this is the first I've heard of caffeine not causing > >dehydration. > I've seen it mentioned a few times. I've seen coloidal silver mentioned a few times too. > >Well, here's one who really enjoys it and would like to point out that the > >caffeine content is far less than that of coffee and black tea. > Yes, that's true (about the same as a glass of Coke). A small glass of Coke. You have to give me that one. > As for taste - some people enjoy the strangest things... ;-) I tried a > number of green teas, and one was actually bearable (a green [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > juices aren't great because of the empty calories, but still better than > dehydration. So you over-reacted again. I never meant that drinking nothing was better than drinking coffee. > >>crappy colored water > >IYHO > He he, IMAO indeed. I'm sure it's an acquired taste (like smoking). When I was a teenager, the local hangout was a Chinese restaurant, and old Henry Mark would give us green tea when we skipped school. Guess it's my "comfort food." > >> marginal health effects. > >You may have missed a couple of studies on this one. > Not really - but the effects are really marginal unless you drink lots > and lots over decades. Well then you're sure looking at different studies than the ones I've seen. The positive effects of coffee on the liver are > actually a lot clearer than the effects of green tea. Clearer? > >Links to the 10 studies? > How about you look for a link to a study that actually showed > dehydration caused by coffee? You show me yours and I'll show you mine. > >I don't think a "typical US diet" is recommended for people with liver > >disease either. > A typical US diet isn't just hamburger and fries. Give people some > credit. According to studies I've read, the only credit people get for a typical North American diet is for being lazy. > >What about people with hep C? Sorry, Thomas, I'm not buying into this one > >until I see more (hard) evidence. > Well, it would be nice to see some evidence for the recommendation to > stop caffeine consumption during treatment. There doesn't seem to be > even one study examining the effects. It's just that everybody knows > that coffee dehydrates, so it must be true... About those studies you mentioned... > >Good to see you, though, and debate a point of fact with you. Hope you're > >doing well, > Ah, I've always enjoyed debating with you, I've learned a lot in the > process. It's good to have you back. It's good to have some spare time, and it's too bloody hot to be out in the garden! Take care, Waterspider >Well, yes, one shouldn't starve themselves to death, but assuming that one >had somewhat of an appetite left, baked chicken breast is certainly a better >choice than pan-fried steak. Life's too short and the effects of an occasional pan-fried steak are too marginal to always worry about which food is good for you. You have health nuts dying with 40 and folks like my grandpa who smoked, never exercised, and had frequent steak dinners (with butter on top) living to be 90 in excellent health. Not that I'm advocating throwing all nutritional advice out of the window, but just taking it less serious. Things you think you know can be very wrong - just check the latest studies proving that low-carb high-fat/protein diets actually work and don't make people sick. The same is true for all the diet advice for Heppers - nearly all claim that coffee is bad for the liver, with ZERO evidence. I have the sneaking suspicion that it's the puritanical tradition that something that tastes good and elevates your mood just must be bad for you. >I know. And it would be pure idiocy for me to resume drinking even though my >treatment was successful because I have liver damage (as do most people who >have had hep c for a couple or few decades before treatment). Yes, I also >realize that treatment does, in some cases, allow the liver to regenerate >itself to lesser levels of fibrosis, but I'm pretty sure that I'm not back >at 0 and I sure ain't going in for another biopsy! I'm not taking up drinking for similar reasons - and also because I don't really need alcohol in my life. I didn't have a drop since age 16, why start now? I don't see the attraction. But that's a very personal decision. >I've seen coloidal silver mentioned a few times too. In reference to studies? I don't think so. >So you over-reacted again. I never meant that drinking nothing was better >than drinking coffee. Nah, that's a misunderstanding. Didn't mean to imply that. >Clearer? Yes, indeed: "Increased coffee consumption was strongly and independently associated with decreased GGT activity among males [...] Intake of green tea, another popular source of caffeine in Japan, did not materially influence the liver enzyme levels." From: "Coffee consumption and decreased serum gamma-glutamyltransferase and aminotransferase activities among male alcohol drinkers" (1998) The recently published studies by the NIH, from Norway, and from the Netherlands, all show clear positive effects of coffee (and in general caffeine) consumption on the prevention of cirrhosis. The NIH study included people with Hep B and C. >You show me yours and I'll show you mine. Oh, come on. That's a pretty lame cop-out. I've posted pointers to three different studies saying the same thing - coffee doesn't dehydrate. Where is the study showing it does? I haven't seen it. Have you? To cite one of the authors of the NIH study on coffee: "There is surprisingly little evidence-based information on the influence of diet and nutrition on the course and severity of chronic liver disease." (James Everhart, M.D., Ph.D.) Thomas SignatureTo reach me, complete my last name in the address. Waterspider, Thanks for the suggestions. I have fibromyalgia in addition to the HCV. So, I never get a good nights sleep anyway. So I'm always tired and spacey to some extent and have been for about 10 years. Only now it is worse because of treatment. I don't eat that much red meat actually. However, on week-ends I'm too sick to eat much of anything. During the week, I try to get a couple meals with protein. I'm a registered dietitian with a masters in nutrition. I only eat two or three meals a week, usually, with any red meat in them. My iron level is fine. My cholesterol and blood pressure are all good. I'm just spaced out from lack of deep sleep and the interferon. I thought the simplicity of what happened was terribly funny though. Gotta laugh. SusieQ > > At lunch yesterday, one of my co-workers.....a nurse and mother of three, > > watched me trying to eat for a while. Then while laughing, she scooted [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Waterspider while on treatment I didn't have much appetite for meat. Milk and cereal was big at my house! SignatureRuss Remove "NOSPAM" for replies. > Waterspider, > Thanks for the suggestions. I have fibromyalgia in addition to the HCV. [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- Right now, Yogurt, Peanut Butter, and Low Fat cheese are my main staples at home. They don't require cooking. Maybe scrambled eggs once a week. I try to round it out with some other foods at work. People just get too carried away sometimes with eating so called "healthy" foods. A person can include anything they want in their diet on occasion. However, some folkes go to the extreme. I have patients that never eat a fruit or vegetable. They eat meat, such as spam, and rice.....and are dying like flies from heart disease and uncontrolled diabetes. At the other extreme, there are people that never eat certain things because they are considered "bad" foods and they are obsessive about what they eat. Either extreme is unhealthy. They even have a name for the "healthy" foods fanatics, but can't think of it right now. It is starting to get more attention. I think during treatment that one needs to get sufficient protein and calories and eat what you can tolerate. Also, work in fruits and vegetables as much as possible. Multiple vitamin isn't a bad idea either. I don't have any strong feelings about coffee. I can't tolerate caffeine so quit drinking it years ago. However, yes, a person does get free fluid (water) from coffee. It is a diuretic, but you always get a percentage of free fluid from any liquid. When I calculate the fluid a patient is getting, I have to calculate in the amount of water they are getting plus the fluid that is in various liquids, such as Ensure if that is what they are on. A person does need to drink plain old water daily though. It is just good for the body. SusieQ > while on treatment I didn't have much appetite for meat. Milk and cereal was > big at my house! [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- > Waterspider, > Thanks for the suggestions. I have fibromyalgia in addition to the HCV. Yup, me too and lots more of us. It appear that HCV can cause FM. > So, I never get a good nights sleep anyway. So I'm always tired and spacey > to some extent and have been for about 10 years. Only now it is worse > because of treatment. I started taking the generic equivalent of Gravol to make me drowsy when I was on treatment, but after a few months of that I caved and got a prescription for sleeping pills. After I finished tx I discontinued the pills and although I have occasional sleeping problems it's not a big problem anymore. > I don't eat that much red meat actually. However, on week-ends I'm too sick > to eat much of anything. During the week, I try to get a couple meals with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > spaced out from lack of deep sleep and the interferon. I thought the > simplicity of what happened was terribly funny though. Gotta laugh. It was funny! Picturing anyone with a plastic knife and fork is funny to begin with; adding tx to the story makes it even better. Personally, I think chronic clumsiness is an undocumented by serious side-effect of tx. Waterspider On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:28:06 -0700, "Waterspider" <waterspider@spamshine.net>, in message ID <10g2bqpc42g0cac@corp.supernews.com>, in the newsgroup alt.support.hepatitis-c wrote: >It was funny! Picturing anyone with a plastic knife and fork is funny to >begin with; adding tx to the story makes it even better. Personally, I think >chronic clumsiness is an undocumented by serious side-effect of tx. Just a thought. I haven't tried spaghetti yet on tx. Maybe I better wait till I've finished. SignaturePaul Use the reply by email facility in your newsreader to send email > On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:28:06 -0700, "Waterspider" > <waterspider@spamshine.net>, in message ID [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > wait till I've finished. > Paul Nah, live a little, play a little, have some fun... eat it with a plastic spoon, forkless and knifeless. Use jello instead of spagetti sauce. Have a friend over to take pictures. <g> Waterspider On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:40:24 -0700, "Waterspider" <waterspider@spamshine.net>, in message ID <10g3j7btopfnddb@corp.supernews.com>, in the newsgroup alt.support.hepatitis-c wrote: >Nah, live a little, play a little, have some fun... eat it with a plastic >spoon, forkless and knifeless. Use jello instead of spagetti sauce. Have a >friend over to take pictures. ><g> If I do, maybe I'll post them on the net :-) SignaturePaul Use the reply by email facility in your newsreader to send email Re: Lunch, Brain Fog, and Fatigue Group: alt.support.hepatitis-c Date: Fri, Jul 23, 2004, 4:24pm (CDT+5) From: dontspamme@westgreen.freeserve.co.uk (Paul) On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:28:06 -0700, "Waterspider" <waterspider@spamshine.net>, in message ID <10g2bqpc42g0cac@corp.supernews.com>, in the newsgroup alt.support.hepatitis-c wrote: It was funny! Picturing anyone with a plastic knife and fork is funny to begin with; adding tx to the story makes it even better. Personally, I think chronic clumsiness is an undocumented by serious side-effect of tx. Just a thought. I haven't tried spaghetti yet on tx. Maybe I better wait till I've finished. SignaturePaul ???????? That's why they invented ZITI. :-) Elmo http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile "Waterspider" <waterspider@spamshine.net> wrote in message news:> > Your fog & fatigue are maybe being intensified by your diet, i.e. hamburger. > Although protein is important in your diet, red meat and especially > hamburger because of its high fat content is the worst choice you could > make. Try broiled chicken and fish instead of hamburger and its ilk. Eat > lots of fresh fruit and vegetables. Scrap coffee and black tea, drink green > tea. Lots of water. Do some research on nutrition & the liver. Even before I got Hep C, I had twice the caloric requirements of anyone I knew. If I didn't eat a fair amount of fat I'd die. I also feel a lot better eating a meat/fat/vege diet with low sugars and simple starches. Now, I'm getting compliments on my visible ab muscles which I couldn't care less about (get Hep and get cut up!) and I can't seem to put on more weight. So the idea of eating lean meats is just not going to work for me. I just eat a lot of everything including veges from the garden. I figure it balances out. Gordo That a way, Suzie. If you can't find those moments humorous, treatment can be a miserable drudgery. Stay on the 'sunny side' and you'll be just fine. :-) Elmo http://community.webtv.net/elmoemerson/DocElmosHepFile |
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