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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Glaucoma / January 2004

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I'm changing specialists. (long rant)

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Leigh Melton - 02 Jan 2004 05:25 GMT
I was diagnosed back in November.  As I posted before, my regular
opthamologist wanted to send me to a glaucoma specialist to confirm
her diagnosis and have all the tests done that she couldn't do (she
has a small office here in our rural community and just doesn't have
the equipment).

So I went to see Dr. D, supposedly the best glaucoma specialist in the
state.  He did the tests and praised my opthamologist for catching my
glaucoma so early.  He gave me a couple of freebie bottles of Xalatan
and said to use one drop each eye before bed, told me to come back in
a month, and that was that.  Like, literally.  

So I went home and did everything wrong of course and the next morning
woke up with bright pink swollen eyeballs and I was alarmed.  I called
my regular opthamologist and got an emergency appointment immediately,
only to be told that what I was experiencing was normal side-effects,
not to worry.  Whew, that was scary for a few hours.  I was also shown
the proper way to put in the drops (the squeeze at the base of the
nose and all that).  I thought to myself "why didn't the specialist
tell me all of this and save me the first-day scare?"  But whatever.

So time comes for my monthly check up with Dr D the specialist.  That
was Monday.  I had a new concern:  I have developed tics in both
eyelids which sometimes last for up to 45 minutes (not seconds) and at
times prevent me from seeing properly.  I mentioned this to Dr D and
asked him if this was a normal side-effect.

His response was "The REAL question is what the pressure is..." [flips
through chart] "and it seems the answer is unchanged.  So I'm going to
change your drops."  

I was a little taken aback by the lack of an answer to my question,
and I ask "What about the side-effects, like the eyelid twitching?"

Response:  "The side effects of the new drop will be different."

And he gets up to leave the room!

So I'm getting exasperated now, and ask "Okay, but what about the
twitching?  Andl what are the side effects of the NEW drop?"

He looks at me for a second and then says, "In some patients,
respiratory distress."  And then he DOES leave the room.

One of his assistants then leads me down the hall, hands me two
bottles of Betimol and tells me to use one drop each eye first thing
in the morning.  And that is that.

So on the ride home all I can think of is "respiratory distress?" and
when I get home I look up Betimol on the Web and yes I know that many
patients can frighten themselves by doing their own research - but I
found one of the major side effects of Betimol conflicted with my
medical history.

The thing is, if he had discussed *just the three major side effects
listed* I would have been able to tell him oops, looks like we have a
problem here.  Just as the first time he could have saved me some
grief and the time of my regular opthamologist in explaining side
effects and usage of Xalatan, again he saves the extra 90 seconds and
exits stage right.

As I sat and thought about all of this, I made up my mind to not take
the Betimol, see my regular opthamologist and explain the situation
and let her take it from there, which she did yesterday.  I have an
appointment with a new glaucoma specialist, Dr G, in a couple of
weeks.  She checked my pressures and told me not to take the Betimol,
but to let Dr G make his own fresh diagnosis.

I guess what I find so frustrating about this situation is that Dr D
never made ANY attempt to communicate with me about my treatment.  He
didn't even tell me how to use the medications properly.  When I asked
about side effects, it seemed to annoy him ("what the REAL quesiton
is...").  Well, we're even.  He annoyed me, too.

This put me between that proverbial rock and its accompanying hard
place.  If I had used the Betimol and had had a bad reaction, I could
see where it would be my fault for not *insisting* on information and
taking control of my own health.  Then again, if I did insist over and
over that I needed more information to be an informed partner in my
care, I can see how that would be construed as being a difficult
patient and get the "who here went to medical school?" lecture.  And
to be fair there is some validity to that, but that is WHY I was
asking for information in the first place!  He knows, I don't.  What's
so hard about that?  

In discussing this with my regular doctor, she told me that many
patients do not want to know anything about the mechanics of their
care, they find it scary and do not want to deal with it.  Which is
fine!  I can see how some people could feel that way.  I, however, am
not one of those people and the simple fact that I asked questions
should have been enough to alert Dr D of this, if he had had that as a
concern.

So just as there are two types of patients - those who want to leave
all in the hands of their doctors, and those who want to be informed -
I think there are two types of doctors.  Those, like my local
opthamologist, who are ready and willing to answer all questions and
address all concerns and keep the patient completely informed, and
those, like Dr D, who either believe the patient is incapable of
understanding the mechanics or who is "second guessing" a diagnosis or
treatment by asking questions.  Or maybe is just too busy to worry
with things like patient questions, who knows.

Well, I found out that the two personality types don't mix, and I am
hoping that my new specialist and I will mesh.

I swear I'm not trying to be difficult.  I just want to *know*.
Without knowledge it's just too easy to be frightened.  There is so
much at stake here.  I don't want to second guess anybody, but I do
want to make sure that my doctor knows all he needs to know and
sometimes that just can't be done by checking off the little boxes on
a patient information sheet, just as it can't be left to a leaflet
inserted in a box to tell me everything I need to know.

So that's my rant.  My husband Joe says there ought to be a standard
lecture for new glaucoma patients:  "Welcome ot the World of
Glaucoma!"  =)   While he's joking... to be honest, that would have
been kind of nice.  Live and learn.

Leigh

--
Consequences, shmonsequences, as long as I'm rich.  - D. Duck
\( TN Artist, trish,tn \) - 02 Jan 2004 06:39 GMT
Rant on Leigh ; ) I had this type of problems with LUNG specialist -and
would you believe my Internist said " All PULMonary Doctors are nuts ?
-( I LIKE HiM ) -I'm on my third PULM doc - the first would not listen ,
talked to his Recording machine most of my visiting time , giving it
Wrong info about Me .  and the second went to jail for medicare  fraud.
The glaucoma meds cause me extra breathing probs when I use them -but
it's a risk I have to take because of the COPD & Glaucoma .   Glaucoma
meds are not good when you have lung problems.  If a doctor resents your
questions --find another --  that pulm doc that's in trouble9 DR. nO 2 )
seemed to have way too many patients --the wait was always 3 hours !
this I think is just wrong . I actually got a phobia to that small exam
room ( 2 of the 3 hours , was in there ) so the last time I went to him
I took -- a drink, a book , and my sketch book.
MC - 02 Jan 2004 06:55 GMT
> So that's my rant.  My husband Joe says there ought to be a standard
> lecture for new glaucoma patients:  "Welcome ot the World of
> Glaucoma!"  =)   While he's joking... to be honest, that would have
> been kind of nice.  Live and learn.

Sounds like there *is* such a standard lecture -- and you just wrote it!

It also sounds like you have a very good ophthalmologist.
John - 02 Jan 2004 08:19 GMT
>I was diagnosed back in November.  As I posted before, my regular
>opthamologist wanted to send me to a glaucoma specialist to confirm
[quoted text clipped - 116 lines]
>
>Leigh

And a literate well-written "rant" it is.  However, you need to acknowledge
the free-market economics that you really already know.  You are not
[directly] paying your doctors; a third party (Medicare, HMO, Insurance)
is.  And those third party payers naturally call the tune, and the tune is
a pittance apiece for seeing lots of patients.

You must have noticed how much more accommodating (note I didn't say honest
:-) ) auto salesmen and real estate agents are than doctors?  And why not,
YOU are signing their pay checks rather than a "third party."

So, with many exceptions, that's the system.  Get used to it and thank God
for the Internet.

John
Sherry - 02 Jan 2004 15:01 GMT
> I was diagnosed back in November.  As I posted before, my regular
> opthamologist wanted to send me to a glaucoma specialist to confirm
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> told me to come back in a month, and that was that.  Like,
> literally.  

Leigh,

I'm so sorry to hear that you had such a bad experience with the
glaucoma specialist. Mine was just the opposite.  My GS (in Seattle,
WA) is really into patient education.  After the diagnosis, my husband
& I were put in a little room to watch a couple of videos about
glaucoma and glaucoma meds and the tech came in when they were done
and asked if we had any more questions.  We also walked away with a
handful of brochures.  Everyone there was so great!  The appointment
was at least a couple hours long!

After the initial diagnosis confirmation, I was followed by my regular
ophth.  I went through 6 different meds before we got to Xalatan,
which was the only one that was either effective or didn't cause any
side effects or allergic reactions.  I was on that for 5 years before
I had trabeculectomies (and surgery was done primarily because they
had run out of meds to try!)

Unfortunately, doctors are really under pressure any more to "produce"
and are seeing more patients than they really should be, especially
glaucoma specialists.  They are few and far between and I've been
surprised to find out how many people have glaucoma. There's a
specialist locator at http://www.glaucomaweb.org/locate.html.

Just getting a diagnosis of glaucoma can be scary enough.  You might
try locating a glaucoma support group in your area.  Check the
http://www.gsgd.org website for a listing of glaucoma support groups
around the world (who have registered at that site - it's fairly new
and we're still working on it) and also, the Wills Eye Hospital has an
excellent site on glaucoma at http://www.wills-glaucoma.org, with
chats and a BBS.

Good luck!

Sherry
Rick Cohn, M.D. - 02 Jan 2004 18:54 GMT
Boy, Leigh, did you have a rough go of it...I'm sorry for your bad
experience.  Unfortunately, only recently have medical schools in this
country started to work on training the "complete physician" who can
both diagnose, treat, and communicate.  That is sometimes a hard order
to fill.
    I try to tread very lightly with new glaucoma patients.  It is a
scary diagnosis.  People are afraid they'll go blind, naturally.  I
make sure to give a lot of reassurance that glaucoma is a VERY SLOW
moving process in most patients, and in many, can be arrested or
slowed further with appropropriate measures.  I chose medications
based on the ease of use and best side effect profile (that actually
makes Xalatan most of our first choices).  Very infrequently do I need
to change a medication if I select it appropriately and educate the
patient beforehand on what to expect.  My favorite tool is to show
patients a diagram of the inside of the eye on a dry erase board and
draw pictures.  Afterall, glaucoma is just a plumbing problem that
causes damage elsewhere in the eye.  The plumbing can either be fluid
outflow from the eye or bloodflow to the eye.  This is much easier to
understand with pictures.
    There is nothing in glaucoma that is so complex that it can't be
expressed in lay terms (and it can even be done quickly, but that is a
true art).  Most importantly, the doc must make sure EVERY question is
answered.  I never walk out till I'm sure you and I are on the same
page.  Keep hunting...I promise you the right glaucoma specialist is
out there for you.  If not, my door in Orlando is always open.  Good
luck.
--Rick Cohn, MD
Glaucoma specialist
Winter Park, FL
phineasfogg - 07 Jan 2004 06:08 GMT
Sorry to hear about your experience, but in my own experience I find such
not uncommon...and not necssarily because of the mere "pittance" paid them
by insurers.

Also, I think having a condition, treatment, meds and side-effects fully
explained in lay terms is necessary and a minimum.  Seeing a video is
abdicating a responsibility.  The information must be made pertinient to
each individual patient (such as one with your particular history).

It has been my experience that few doctors in any specialty will take the
time to do this.  (I am treated for several conditions, including normal
tension galucoma.)

As for side-effects, my opinion  is that doctors are trained and see
treatment and their ramifications from a different perspective.  I don't
believe they empathize with patients at all.  They prescribe a treatment (eg
meds) and expect the patient to tolerate whatver the side-effects may be,
because they had deigned this approach the best way to go.

My first highly regarded GS prescribed Diamox; I trusted him completely and
only after getting kidney stones did I learn it was a medication that
neither my PCP (and then urologist) would not have recommended, and not
because of any propensity or susceptibility on my part.  I was never told
beforehand of any potential side-effect for getting kidney stones, however
unlikely.

The doctors see a side-effect as a necessary evil and don't think twice
about it; as a patient, you do not have to.  And of course, you should know
about it -- from the GS-- beforehand.   BTW the two GS I have seen are very
highly regarded and seem more interested in research than patient care.

> I was diagnosed back in November.  As I posted before, my regular
> opthamologist wanted to send me to a glaucoma specialist to confirm
[quoted text clipped - 119 lines]
> --
> Consequences, shmonsequences, as long as I'm rich.  - D. Duck
MC - 07 Jan 2004 06:32 GMT
> Sorry to hear about your experience, but in my own experience I find such
> not uncommon...and not necssarily because of the mere "pittance" paid them
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> about it -- from the GS-- beforehand.   BTW the two GS I have seen are very
> highly regarded and seem more interested in research than patient care.

It is also up to the patient to *ask* *questions* -- especially about
side effects and drug interactions.

For some reason many doctors -- not just ophthalmologists and glaucoma
specialists -- simply do not mention these.
phineasfogg - 07 Jan 2004 14:32 GMT
Just to be perfectly clear, if I hadn't been--it is obvious that the patient
should ask any doctor what the side-effects of meds may be (and the possible
things that could go wrong with any procedure).  I am referring to doctors
who after being asked such, glibly answer "what's the alternative? or it's
better than going blind" or give a cursory summary of the side-effects
without considering the patient's history.  Then, there are those MDs who
minimize any side-effects and distort the various percentages or likelihood
of any side-effect occurring.  There are still other doctors who disclose a
serious side-effect, but view it lightly because that side-effect is itself
treatable. (eg kidney stones with Diamox, or cataracts with a trab).  I have
yet to encounter any genuine empathy from my specialists--it's almost as
though the GS wants to really say "Take it or leave it, I've got other
paying patients to treat."

> > Sorry to hear about your experience, but in my own experience I find such
> > not uncommon...and not necssarily because of the mere "pittance" paid them
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> For some reason many doctors -- not just ophthalmologists and glaucoma
> specialists -- simply do not mention these.
MC - 07 Jan 2004 14:39 GMT
> Just to be perfectly clear, if I hadn't been--it is obvious that the patient
> should ask any doctor what the side-effects of meds may be (and the possible
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> though the GS wants to really say "Take it or leave it, I've got other
> paying patients to treat."

Yeah. There are many doctors who do that kind of thing. I don't know
what the solution is. Except to say they don't *all* do it, and you can
ask around.

If I were in your situation and anywhere near "our own" Dr. Cohen or Dr.
Robert Ritch, I'd be on the phone to them, since they both display
tremendous interest in us as patients, and all have the science any
patient could ask for.

On the other hand, if it ever came down to such a decision I would
always choose competence over bedside manner. I had a hernia repair done
a couple of years ago by a doctor who had *no* bedside manner. In fact
he gave every appearance of having no social skills whatsoever. But he's
one of the best hernia surgeons in the country...

Signature

Schubert left a great work unfinished and died famous. Why not me?

phineasfogg - 08 Jan 2004 07:21 GMT
I didn't want to reveal this to avoid any controversy, but I was treated by
a very highly regarded GS at the NYEEI and am now with a top notch GS at Mt
Sinai.  I was/am not enthused with either, but then there is very little
anyone (Harry Quigley included) can do about NTG.   Top MDs do not want to
admit there are limits to their greatness. [BTW, I agree--if I had a broken
bone, I'd put up with an obnoxious orthpoedist who could fix the bone.
However, no one can cure NTG or come close (they think they do), so I don't
need the air of omnipotence.]

> > Just to be perfectly clear, if I hadn't been--it is obvious that the patient
> > should ask any doctor what the side-effects of meds may be (and the possible
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Schubert left a great work unfinished and died famous. Why not me?
Rick Cohn, M.D. - 10 Jan 2004 04:13 GMT
> I didn't want to reveal this to avoid any controversy, but I was treated by
> a very highly regarded GS at the NYEEI and am now with a top notch GS at Mt
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> However, no one can cure NTG or come close (they think they do), so I don't
> need the air of omnipotence.]

Maybe you should avoid the glaucoma specialists at large university
hopsitals / teaching institutions.  These doctors are well-known for
their incredible egos.  In addition, they often see 60 -70 patients a
day in clinics where you are first worked-up by residents or fellows
in training.  Then the "world-reknowned" specialist has little time to
spend with you.  Many of us who see only 30-45 patients a day have
much more time to spend and take the time to review side effects of
medications, the risks of surgery, etc.  In addition, we perform all
of our own surgery, rather than having a fellow operate while we
supervise.  These doctors are well-published and speak at lectures all
over the world, but are not necessarily known for interpersonal
skills.
   On the other hand, you should be careful about lumping all
ophthalmologists and glaucoma specialists into one group.  Obviously
we are not all cast in the same mold.  You've seen a couple of
specialists in a city with dozens, so I think you're judging a little
prematurely.
--Rick Cohn, MD
Glaucoma Specialist
Winter Park, FL
Reason - 16 Jan 2004 08:04 GMT
My Opthalmologist is excellent. However ...

I once refused to pay a specialist because he had failed to do his job
adequately.
His receptionist spoke to him.
He spoke to me.
I told him my reasons.
He told me not to worry with the bill.

Assuming that you pay at the end of the consultation, maybe Leigh could have
simply insisted at the desk that she would not pay until the consultation
was completed.

If that did not give a satisfactory result, I would contact the relevant
accrediting authority.

I live in Sydney, so the medical system is somewhat different.

Stephen
 
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