Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Epilepsy / April 2005
Long post: strange seizure episode
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Rich - 05 Apr 2005 05:35 GMT This is a long post. I have to tell the entire story for this to make any sense. In a nutshell my wife had seizures (we're not sure why) and she has been seizure free for 6 months. She does not want to take medication (because she has been seizure free this long), however she needs dental work done and our dentist will not work on her until she takes the medication that the neurologist prescribed (for liability reasons). The obvious thing would be to take the medication, but so far both neurologists she's been to have not been able to diagnose her with anything specifically or explain how the medication works. She's come to the conclusion that the doctors care only about their liability and not so much for her wellbeing. They would rather error on the side of liability whereas she would rather error on the side of not having to take a medication or become dependant on it if she really doesn't need it. It's a long story but here goes:
One day in October of 2000 my wife had a strange fainting spell when I got home from work. After getting up quickly to get the door, she passed out then had yellowish vision and felt warm and confused for several minutes afterwards. We attributed this to a fad diet she was following (900 calories a day). She quit the diet per my request and her doctor's advice. Nothing else happened until 2004.
In September of 2004 she had gone all day without eating (again, improperly following a diet, this time Atkins) and when she finally sat down to eat, her right arm started to twitch, her neck muscle tightened and she had a sort of paralysis throughout her body. Again, she had the yellowish vision. This time it was accompanied with a headache towards the front of her head. She was too frightened to go to our doctor. She wrote it off as a muscle spasm. Once again, she was getting just 900 calories per day (I counted). But this time she was also sleep deprived. Our son had been keeping us up at night with an ear infection all week long. She had no more than 4 to 5 hours of sleep for the previous two nights. She had also been drinking tons of diet soda - up to 3 cans per day (we've heard conflicting stories about what this stuff can do).
Several days later on September 23rd of 2004 she went to the dentist to have a molar fixed on the bottom jaw, towards the back. The dentist numbed her up with the usual stuff (mepivacaine) and then a few moments later she went into a full-blown seizure and seemed comatose for 3 to 4 minutes, according to the dentist. This mepivacaine stuff (or the excitement or fear of the dentist visit) pushed her seizure threshold over the edge. This was the wake-up call to get to a doctor and to a neurologist.
Here's exactly what the dentist said to me over the phone: "You need to pick up your wife, she can't drive. She had what looked like a seizure to me, jerking, eyes rolling, and she looked comatose for a few minutes. It looks like she needs to see a doctor."
I drove her from the dentist to the ER (except we stopped to get a snack, thinking that might help). She explained that she was not unconscious. She could hear and feel everything while this was going on. And like before, her vision was blurred and yellowish afterwards.
While sitting in the hospital waiting area after 2 hours, she had another seizure. This was the second full-blown seizure. She lost complete control of her body, moving in a strange rhythmic, circular motion, neck and upper back muscles went limp, then stiffened, over and over, sort of like she was half way passing out. She was crying while this was occurring, fully aware of what was going on, and again did not loose consciousness. A nurse saw it and moved her into a room, where they did all the testing (brain scan, blood work, etc. all inconclusive). At this point she was practically starving although the nurse was reluctant to give her food because she might have choked if another seizure had occurred. They wanted to start her on Ativan but she declined. Instead, I snuck some food from the vending machine. Her headache went away. After a couple hours of staying in the ER she was discharged without any prescriptions and instructed to follow up with her GP and a neurologist. She did not have another seizure for 24 hours.
She saw her GP the very next morning and he made an appointment for a fasting glucose test, complete metabolic panel, an EEG, and a follow-up with a neurologist. He also prescribed Phenobarbital and instructed her to use if only if the seizures returned or could not be controlled by eating and resting.
That evening she had another seizure. This time the seizure was brought on by pure anxiety. Again, she did not loose consciousness. This seizure was the strangest. She was reading on the Internet about Aspartame, and recalled guzzling down about 4 diet Dr. Peppers each day (as part of her modified version of the Atkins diet) the prior week. Apparently the web page she was reading upset her so much that it caused her to go into a seizure. Just being scared caused the seizure! First her neck started twitching slightly and a headache came on (I had just walked into the room at this point). I asked her to stop reading the web page and to relax. But it was too late. Two minutes later she was on the ground, not twitching per se, but muscles moving involuntarily and slowly. She was crying the entire time. She could speak to me but knew exactly what was going on. Her vision was again yellowish or dark during the episode. I was able to talk her out of this by calming her down. The seizure actually stopped by calming her down. After this episode she experienced a headache and a sense of unreality or confusion for approximately 30 minutes afterwards. She continued to feel groggy until I fixed her something to eat. Within 15 minutes she was feeling fine again. From then on she was able to keep the seizures under control just by making sure she had a full stomach and remained calm. By now we were really convinced that not eating had something to do with this. All throughout the day she kept checking her blood sugar with a glucose testing kit but the glucose numbers were ok.
After nearly a month without a seizure, she wound up in the hospital with severe hives due to a bad reaction to a sulfa drug (taken for an infection - unrelated). She was given IV prednisone and benadryl in the hospital. About 20 minutes later she felt very drowsy and her arms started to twitch. 10 minutes later her heart rate increased by 10 BPM every 15 seconds, as I was watching the monitor. Soon her heart rate was at 160 and she was in a seizure, eyes rolled back, arms twitched, etc. I yelled for the doctor and he came in and said it looked like a pseudo seizure because he could hold her arms down and they would stop twitching. He spent all of 10 seconds looking at her then left. About 10 seconds later the seizure subsided and she felt very tired and confused for another 10 minutes. Once again she did not eat for at least 6 hours prior to having this "seizure". She also did not have much sleep the night before. How this kept happening, I don't know. The both of us would loose track of time and forget to eat.
She was released from the hospital the same evening and was fine after that. We stuck to a strict sleep and eating pattern and the seizures went away 100%. Not one seizures or twitch since then and it has been over six months.
She has been seeing two neurologists who so far have done several different types of EEGs (sleep deprivation, no food, flickering lights, etc.) and the EEGs always come back normal. Absolutley nothing abnormal. One neurologist prescribed something called Lamactal but she did not want to take it, mainly because she was no longer having seizures and secondly because neither one of the neurologists could explain to her how the medicine worked! She doesn' t want to become dependant on that medication for the rest of her life. While I can sympathize with her, and agree that there's a long list of side effects with the medication, we sort of have a problem now. She is in need of dental work and no dentist will work on her until she either takes the medication, or gets a note from one of the neurologist. And of course there' s the concern that this whole thing might start over again. She's seen several dentists (she's practically been shopping for a dentist). One dentist suggested taking valium just for the visit, but the neurologist said that wouldn't help. While her teeth are in pain, she refuses to take the Lamactal because she is not having more seizures and wants to be free of medication. Of course, if she did have a seizure she could choke while having the dental work done. So she doesn't know which is worse; not having the dental work done or taking the medication. We don't know what the long-term effects of Lamactal are or how safe it is, how long it has been in use, etc. and since the neurologists can't even explain that to her, well, we're in bad shape.
My questions to this group:
1.. What could this be? Psychogenic seizures, or something? 2.. Should she take the Lamactal? Should I try to convince her to take that, or should she wait several months then have the dental work done? 3.. If she took the Lamactal just to get the dental work done, could she taper off of that after a couple months? She's afraid that if she tapers off later that it will actually cause seizures that she would otherwise not have.
Liz & Allan MacDonald - 05 Apr 2005 12:50 GMT Rich, I am not a doctor, and this advice is worth what you paid for it.
It sounds like epilepsy, not something psychological or "pseudo". That's based on your and your wife's description of the episodes. Many of us have epilepsy with perfectly normal EEGs and other tests.
You've identified some circumstances that lower her seizure threshold - stress, lack of sleep, lack of food. If she chooses not to take medication, then she should be aware of those triggers and change her lifestyle to avoid them. Valium may lower the stress sufficiently for the dental work. (The dentist is being highly unprofessional, IMO. He seems unaware that the stress of a dental visit may still trigger seizures in a patient taking meds.)
The phenobarbitol the GP prescribed is a very old medication with minimal side effects other than sedation. If your wife can tolerate it, that may get her through the dental work. You are correct that medication should not be discontinued abruptly as rebound seizures may occur. When changing meds, I have been advised to taper off the old one over a period of two weeks.
Best wishes, Liz
> This is a long post. I have to tell the entire story for this to make any > sense. In a nutshell my wife had seizures (we're not sure why) and she has [quoted text clipped - 143 lines] > later that it will actually cause seizures that she would otherwise not > have. Rich - 06 Apr 2005 02:53 GMT > Rich, > I am not a doctor, and this advice is worth what you paid for it. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Best wishes, > Liz Thanks for your reply. She has been considering to go to another dentist and taking either the valium or phenobarb. A dentist who I used to go to said he would prescribe her valium. He can't prescribe phenobarb (although we still have that in the fridge). I wonder if she should take that instead of the valium.
This brings up the question... what do people with epilepsy do when they go to the dentist, or do things that are likely to trigger a seizure? What do you take?
It is clear the neurologist is not going to prescribe anything just for the dentist visit. Its just that we are pinned down so to speak:
Wife: "Do I have to take the Lamactal?"
Neurologist: "No, you don't have to take the Lamactal. But I would not drive without taking it. You also run the risk of falling down and breaking your neck."
Wife: "Would you prescribe something so I can go to the dentist?"
Neurologist:" No, just take your Lamactal for 5 weeks then go to the dentist".
Wife: "So I have to take the Lamactal for 5 weeks then taper off for 5 weeks just to go to the dentist?"
Neurologist: "Yes. but I would just keep taking it, don't taper off"
Wife: "But you just said that I didn't have to take the Lamactal"
Neurologist: "Right. But I can loose my medical license if you have a siezure at the dentists office and choke to death"
Wife: <speechless>
Same story with two different neurologists.
> > This is a long post. I have to tell the entire story for this to make any > > sense. In a nutshell my wife had seizures (we're not sure why) and she has [quoted text clipped - 143 lines] > > later that it will actually cause seizures that she would otherwise not > > have. CyberCafe - 05 Apr 2005 14:53 GMT > This is a long post. I have to tell the entire story for this to make any > sense. In a nutshell my wife had seizures (we're not sure why) and she has [quoted text clipped - 143 lines] > later that it will actually cause seizures that she would otherwise not > have. I personally know two people who went into a mental health crisis as the direct result of chemical imbalance in the brain. One of my friend's daughters basically was starving (college student, no money), and it threw her brain into a chemical imbalance. Another friend had had many years of mental health problems, which they eventually discovered was due to a chemical imbalance. Both of these people were on the lean side to begin with. Both are fine now.
There are some things the brain has to have to operate properly like the proper electrolyte balance, adequate calories, oxygen, etc. Muscle twitching CAN come from nutritional deficiencies (and remember the heart is a muscle). Calcium, magnesium, sodium, phosphate, and other nutritional components can get totally screwed up on some diets, and that's just asking for trouble.
Barb
G.Ross - 05 Apr 2005 16:07 GMT > This is a long post. > > My questions to this group: > 1.. What could this be? Psychogenic seizures, or something? ******** Unlikely but why would it matter? A seizure is a seizure that won't go away until the cause is found and it's treated, or a solution is found to control them. An EEG will only find seizures that occur during the test. If there are other things going on -- tooth problems? Tumor or other Neuro problems, only testing will determine that. Refusal of treatment only matters if she drives. The Doctor who wrote the prescription is already treating her. If she's non-compliant, he's 'out of the loop' wrt. treatment, if anything worse were to occur. I guess I don't really understand why someone would consult a Dr. then refuse to follow their suggestions. Fear can be one thing, but it wastes both your times -- the Dr. and the Patient.
> 2.. Should she take the Lamactal? Should I try to convince her to take > that, or should she wait several months then have the dental work done? **** She now is on record as being treated for an undetermined condition, possibly related to seizures. (As above, but if she drives, has an accident and it's determined that treatment was underway, but refused, for a suspected seizure condition, all Liability Insurance you might have is *void. A potentially expensive exercise in Autonomy.)
> 3.. If she took the Lamactal just to get the dental work done, could she > taper off of that after a couple months? She's afraid that if she tapers > off > later that it will actually cause seizures that she would otherwise not > have. *** Lamictal is an Anti Seizure medication. Any change to the dose rate and amount taken should be worked out with the Doctor. Stopping the medication, if the Dr. thought it was wise, would be coordinated with them. You can't get New Seizures that weren't already there, by stopping an Anti Seizure pill with the **Dr. Supervising. Each of us absorbs AEDs differently and self prescribing risks producing more (return of) seizures. (There's a Medications Glossary under American Ep. Foundation site http://efa.org if you want to look it up -- note spelling of "Lamictal". )
There could be **other things producing seizures-- allergies, fad diets like others mentioned, might lower the seizure threshold so make her more prone to seizures, but only medical testing etc. would determine which it is. She would probably need further tests like a Magnetic Resonance Scan to make sure there are no Brain Tumours or Internal Damage causing these. They *might even be caused by the Dental Problems, for all I know.
But not following up and being tested to find out which it is will *not make it 'go away' by itself, in my (non-medical) opinion. Control might be So Easy and is So Neat rather than hiding and hoping it will go away by itself.
P.S. If any Prescriptions are given and she decides to use them, Follow they *exactly as prescribed. This isn't a Chest Cold, and the pills and any Bloodtests to find Med. Levels in her Blood, assume that the prescription is being followed *as written*. Also several of these pills require taking at a rate the Dr. suggests. They should *not be promptly altered or Stopped without the Dr. supervising. That's just how they work. Respect them and they could work for her. Keep us posted. G./
Rich - 06 Apr 2005 02:38 GMT 1. As to why she doesn't take the medication, I would say that since the doctors can't diagnose her with anything, and since she is not having seizures anymore, she doesn't want to become dependant on a medication that in her opinion, she doesn't need. I would guess that one more seizure now (after all this time, 6 months) would convince her to start taking the medication.
2. She does not drive. I have asked her not to drive since this episode 6 months ago. She will not drive or swim, or do any such thing again until we find an answer to all this, or a couple years go by without anymore of these seizures.
Thanks.
> > This is a long post. > > > My questions to this group: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > (There's a Medications Glossary under American Ep. Foundation site > http://efa.org if you want to look it up -- note spelling of "Lamictal". )
> There could be **other things producing seizures-- allergies, fad diets > like others mentioned, might lower the seizure threshold so make her more [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Respect them and they could work for her. > Keep us posted. G./ Julie - 05 Apr 2005 20:13 GMT Rich, welcome to our group. Here is information about non-epileptic seizures. http://www.epilepsyidaho.org/nonepileptic.htm
I hope you and your wife find the answers to get the appropriate help. Sometimes medication is the answer. I would document everything about her seizures. Like you have done - her diet, sleep, stress, if it is during her menstrual cycle.
Take care, Julie Walton, Volunteer Webmaster Epilepsy Foundation of Idaho http://www.epilepsyidaho.org
> This is a long post. I have to tell the entire story for this to make any > sense. In a nutshell my wife had seizures (we're not sure why) and she has [quoted text clipped - 143 lines] > later that it will actually cause seizures that she would otherwise not > have. Rich - 06 Apr 2005 02:40 GMT > Rich, welcome to our group. Here is information about non-epileptic seizures. > http://www.epilepsyidaho.org/nonepileptic.htm [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > seizures. Like you have done - her diet, sleep, stress, if it is during her > menstrual cycle. This is one other thing but I didn't think it mattered.. every time she had seizures, she was in her menstrual cycle.
> Take care, > Julie Walton, Volunteer Webmaster [quoted text clipped - 148 lines] > > later that it will actually cause seizures that she would otherwise not > > have. Julie - 06 Apr 2005 04:01 GMT > > Rich, welcome to our group. Here is information about non-epileptic > seizures. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > This is one other thing but I didn't think it mattered.. every time she had > seizures, she was in her menstrual cycle. Yes, that can be a trigger. That was the time when I tended to have seizures. Here is some information about seizures and hormones. http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/answerplace/Life/adults/women/weihormones.cfm One of the paragraphs reads:
Is there a connection between seizures and hormones? Yes, although we do not understand it very well. We know that the female hormones, estrogen and progesterone, act on certain brain cells, including those in the temporal lobe, a part of the brain where partial seizures often begin. Estrogen excites these brain cells and can make seizures more likely to happen. In contrast, natural progesterone can inhibit or prevent seizures in some women.
Take care, Julie Walton, Volunteer Webmaster Epilepsy Foundation of Idaho http://www.epilepsyidaho.org
Mary Fisher - 06 Apr 2005 23:40 GMT >> Rich, welcome to our group. Here is information about non-epileptic > seizures. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > had > seizures, she was in her menstrual cycle. <puzzled> ... a pre-menopausal non-pregnant woman is always in a menstrual cycle ...
Mary
>> Take care, >> Julie Walton, Volunteer Webmaster [quoted text clipped - 254 lines] >> > later that it will actually cause seizures that she would otherwise not >> > have. Rich - 07 Apr 2005 01:44 GMT > >> Rich, welcome to our group. Here is information about non-epileptic > > seizures. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > <puzzled> ... a pre-menopausal non-pregnant woman is always in a menstrual > cycle ... I meant the menstrual cycle was at the end or starting over each time she had the seizures.
> Mary > > [quoted text clipped - 256 lines] > >> > later that it will actually cause seizures that she would otherwise not > >> > have. Mary Fisher - 07 Apr 2005 09:50 GMT >> >> Rich, welcome to our group. Here is information about non-epileptic >> > seizures. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I meant the menstrual cycle was at the end or starting over each time she > had the seizures. Oh. What's the start or end? I think of the start as ovulation but there could be other interpretations.
Mary
Dave ???? - 09 Apr 2005 00:27 GMT Howdy Rich!
The thing that really jumps out at me is your wife's dislike of the "I don't know" diagnosis.
Due to the nature of epilepsy this is a fairly common diagnosis...
Epilepsy proper is a tendency to have seizures that can not be traced to a specific cause:
"We don't know why you have seizures but you ARE having them... therefore BY DEFINITION you have epilepsy."
Same thing with a lot of drug therapies. The doctors don't know why some drugs work but they DO. A person is not going to refuse to use electricity in their house just because they don't know how it works.
I had to merely accept the fact that I had epilepsy. It wasn't until about 30 years later that I learned WHY I had it.
As for the "doesn't want to be dependant on drugs" issue... I only wish that I COULD depend on some drugs. I have intractable epilepsy and we have been searching (more than 35 years) for a combination of drugs and implants that would control my seizures (I couldn't have surgery.) If I had the opportunity to take something that would control my seizures, I'd do it in a flash!
 Signature Dave ????
http://www.howdydave.com
> This is a long post. I have to tell the entire story for this to make any > sense. In a nutshell my wife had seizures (we're not sure why) and she has [quoted text clipped - 143 lines] > later that it will actually cause seizures that she would otherwise not > have. Mary Fisher - 09 Apr 2005 10:41 GMT > Howdy Rich! > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > a > flash! Excellent post, Dave, thanks.
Mary
Rich - 09 Apr 2005 21:16 GMT > Howdy Rich! > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > opportunity to take something that would control my seizures, I'd do it in a > flash! Thanks for the post Dave. She simply has not had a seizure in over 6 months, they happened only then. She does not want to take the medication because she does not think she will have anymore seizures, after not having any this long (6 months).
> > This is a long post. I have to tell the entire story for this to make any > > sense. In a nutshell my wife had seizures (we're not sure why) and she has [quoted text clipped - 187 lines] > > later that it will actually cause seizures that she would otherwise not > > have. Mary Fisher - 09 Apr 2005 21:24 GMT > Thanks for the post Dave. She simply has not had a seizure in over 6 > months, > they happened only then. She does not want to take the medication because > she does not think she will have anymore seizures, after not having any > this > long (6 months). Oh, please ask her not to be complacent. If she does that she could be devasted if she does have another ...
A doctor once told me I was cured of breast cancer. I was furious, not for my sake because I know about it but if he's telling other women that and they get a recurrence how are they going to feel?
There are some things you can't guarantee. Not having another seizure (or in fact a first seizure) and not having a recurrence of any kind of cancer are but two.
For those things you can never say your're cured until you die of something else :-)
Hugs,
Mary
Julie - 10 Apr 2005 02:20 GMT Rich wrote:Thanks for the post Dave. She simply has not had a seizure in over 6 months,
> they happened only then. She does not want to take the medication because > she does not think she will have anymore seizures, after not having any this > long (6 months). Rich, 6 months is not necessarily a long time to go without a seizure. Years ago I went to a neurologist and had another EEG and MRI to check into why I was having more than the usual amount of seizures for me. I think I had about three in a two year period. Prior to that I had gone for about 8 years without a seizure. The tests showed that I do have epilepsy, but they do not know why. I did not decide that then I did not need medication. The doctor worked with me to get me to a therapeutic level of medication and I continue to take it.
Take care, Julie
Rich - 10 Apr 2005 04:08 GMT > Rich wrote:Thanks for the post Dave. She simply has not had a seizure in over 6 > months, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Take care, > Julie Thanks for the info. Just out of curiosity, what type of medication do you take?
Rich
Julie - 10 Apr 2005 04:46 GMT > Thanks for the info. Just out of curiosity, what type of medication do you > take? > > Rich I take a very old medication, Phenobarbital. They tried me on a couple new meds but I had bad side effects. I was happy when they put me back on phenobarbital and got it to a therapeutic level. I think what helps the most for me is listening to my body, recognizing things that trigger seizures in me and resting when I need. I also figured out one of the big triggers for me was the fact that MSG triggered irritable bowel syndrome and that triggered my seizures. So I stay very far away from monosodium glutamate (which is in so many packaged foods, salad dressing, you name it). And I continue to take my medication. This summer will be 10 years without a tonic clonic (grand mal) seizure.
Take care, Julie
Mary Fisher - 10 Apr 2005 12:00 GMT ...
> So I > stay very far away from monosodium glutamate (which is in so many packaged > foods, salad dressing, you name it). Make your own! It's easy and you know it's good and safe.
Mary
turbinado - 10 Apr 2005 21:43 GMT > > Thanks for the info. Just out of curiosity, what type of medication do you > > take? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Take care, > Julie MSG is also a major trigger for my seizures, and I get so annoyed in the supermarket seeing how many foods have it! Hydrolized vegetable (or soy) protein is chemically related to MSG and also causes seizures for me - many supposedly healthy foods have that instead of MSG, so I have to read every label.
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