Epilepsy and driving regulations in the UK

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Jeremy Morton - 17 Dec 2004 17:50 GMT

Hello. I've had epilepsy for a few years now. On average I find I have a
fit maybe once a year. I consider the UK driving rules on epilepsy to be
ludicrous.

What they should be trying to establish is not that you're guaranteed never
to have another fit - that can never be fully guaranteed - but that you are
not someone who doesn't have *regular* fits (daily, or weekly). I think
this could frankly be established after a fit-free period of 1 or 2 months.
Why is the arbitrary minimum ban of 12 months chosen? Indeed, a study of
drivers in Arizona by the Mayo Clinic backed up my strong suspicion on this,
and the story can be found here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3078609.stm

It was found that the increase in risk of accidents after letting epilepsy
sufferers drive again after 3 months as opposed to 12 was so small as to be
statistically insignificant.

This is bad enough for car drivers - the law on driving lorries and buses
is, frankly, laughable. 10 years without a fit? What was the person who
plucked this arbitrary figure smoking? If somebody drives these vehicles
they very likely rely on them for their livelihood. The law may as well
state that if you rely on driving these types of vehicles for your
livelihood and have a fit, find a new line of work.

With this in mind, I'd like to know people's opinions on the matter, and
whether there is any group or petition I can join to try and get this unjust
law changed. It would also be useful if anyobody could probide me with a
webpage or list of the minimum driving ban periods after epileptic fits for
other countries, as I have had trouble finding this info on the web.

Cheers!

Signature

Best regards,
Jeremy Morton (Jez)

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Mary Fisher - 17 Dec 2004 21:08 GMT

> Hello. I've had epilepsy for a few years now. On average I find I have a
> fit maybe once a year. I consider the UK driving rules on epilepsy to be
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> months.
> Why is the arbitrary minimum ban of 12 months chosen?

Well, if you fit every month that's twelve potential fatal accidents a year,
which might involve others.

> This is bad enough for car drivers - the law on driving lorries and buses
> is, frankly, laughable. 10 years without a fit? What was the person who
> plucked this arbitrary figure smoking? If somebody drives these vehicles
> they very likely rely on them for their livelihood. The law may as well
> state that if you rely on driving these types of vehicles for your
> livelihood and have a fit, find a new line of work.

It's to protect others.

> With this in mind, I'd like to know people's opinions on the matter, and
> whether there is any group or petition I can join to try and get this
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> for
> other countries, as I have had trouble finding this info on the web.

You won't find enough people with your evangelical spirit to change the
hearts and minds of Mr Blair. Look at other issues ... even if there were
enough of us in the country it wouldn't have any effect. If there were such
a group it would be on the web and if there is such a group which isn't on
the web it can't get its act together efficiently enough to be worth
bothering with.

But as it happens I disagree with you. It's awful not to be able to drive -
I know from experience - but it's not the end of the world, not even the end
of one's livelihood.

What if someone only gets drunk once a month? Should they still be allowed -
legally - to drive?

The legislation on number of fits in a given time was changed - to our
advantage - about ten years ago. Before then it was more stringent. That was
before Mr Blair and without public pressure.

Mary

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Jeremy Morton - 18 Dec 2004 11:17 GMT

Hi Mary,

>> Hello. I've had epilepsy for a few years now. On average I find I have
>> a fit maybe once a year. I consider the UK driving rules on epilepsy to
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Well, if you fit every month that's twelve potential fatal accidents a
> year, which might involve others.

Well, take the 2 month period then. If you fitted once every 2 months, you
would NOT be allowed to drive because every time you had a fit the ban
period would be reset. If you go 2 months solid without a fit frankly I
think you're as safe as anyone to drive.

>> This is bad enough for car drivers - the law on driving lorries and buses
>> is, frankly, laughable. 10 years without a fit? What was the person who
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> It's to protect others.

Of course, but the scales of public protection and personal freedom are
surely massively unbalanced here?

>> With this in mind, I'd like to know people's opinions on the matter, and
>> whether there is any group or petition I can join to try and get this
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> isn't on the web it can't get its act together efficiently enough to be
> worth bothering with.

I agree with you there; although would it be Mr. Blair that took the
decision, or the Secretary of State? And even then, would they just operate
under the guidelines given by the Honoury Medical Advisary Panels? The
panels are the ones who need to rethink the recommendations.

> But as it happens I disagree with you. It's awful not to be able to drive
> - I know from experience - but it's not the end of the world, not even
> the end of one's livelihood.

Very subjective topic. Personally, not being able to drive totally screwed
up my life for the period that I was banned, drained me financially,
physically (hours of walking to and from per day) and mentally. This does
depend on where you live but for many people, driving is extremely
important.

> What if someone only gets drunk once a month? Should they still be
> allowed - legally - to drive?

Um, yes? I get drunk much more often than that and I drive. Or did you
mean if they *drink drive* once a month?

> The legislation on number of fits in a given time was changed - to our
> advantage - about ten years ago. Before then it was more stringent. That
> was before Mr Blair and without public pressure.

Yes, I know. And it shows that they're going in the right direction and
realised that the previous penalty was arbitrarily high. They just need to
realise that again.

> Mary

Signature

Best regards,
Jeremy Morton (Jez)

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Bill X - 18 Dec 2004 19:26 GMT

What qualifies as "fit" for the purpose of driving restriction? In Ohio
(US) the law is a minimum of six months seizure free but a doctor can
certify you fit for driving sooner. I had my driving suspended after a
grand mal 1.5 years ago but it was very informal. They didn't take away my
license or issue me anything in writing other than "patient should not
drive" when I was released from hospital. I stopped driving until my
neurologist told me I could three months later and even then nothing was
issued in writing. I've told my neurologist that I have occassional break
through simple partial seizures lasting 2-5 minutes that haven't impacted
conciousness or muscle movement thus far (although the sensations of
tingling and numbness are unsettling) and we haven't discussed ramifications
to driving since he said I could drive.

> Hi Mary,
>
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
>
> > Mary

Reply to this Message

Mary Fisher - 18 Dec 2004 20:11 GMT

"Jeremy Morton" <ask@me.com> wrote in message news:41c411b3$0$8336

> Well, take the 2 month period then. If you fitted once every 2 months,
> you
> would NOT be allowed to drive because every time you had a fit the ban
> period would be reset. If you go 2 months solid without a fit frankly I
> think you're as safe as anyone to drive.

Others, who know more about these things, don't.>

>>> This is bad enough for car drivers - the law on driving lorries and
>>> buses
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Of course, but the scales of public protection and personal freedom are
> surely massively unbalanced here?

I don't think so.

If you kill one person in one accident in ten years that's bad. If you're a
bus driver and kill several of your passengers in one accident in ten years
or if you're a lorry driver and kill several drivers in a motorway accident
in one accident in ten years that's worse.

There's someone on this group who killed someone while having a seizure. He
finds life very hard now. Perhaps you're made of sterner stuff and could
live easily with your conscience. Most of us would find it very hard.

>> You won't find enough people with your evangelical spirit to change the
>> hearts and minds of Mr Blair. Look at other issues ... even if there were
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I agree with you there; although would it be Mr. Blair that took the
> decision, or the Secretary of State?

That's irrelevent. Recent protests from the Countryside Alliance and the
Anti Iraq Invasion protesters got nowhere. I suspect that the supporters of
cut Scottish regiments won't either. There are far more people showing their
feeling there than there would be epileptics. You probably wouldn't get the
support of those epileptics who are responsible and are prepared temporarily
to sacrifice their convenience for the common good.

> And even then, would they just operate
> under the guidelines given by the Honoury Medical Advisary Panels? The
> panels are the ones who need to rethink the recommendations.

Well, dear, you tell 'em that.

>> But as it happens I disagree with you. It's awful not to be able to drive
>> - I know from experience - but it's not the end of the world, not even
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> depend on where you live but for many people, driving is extremely
> important.

I know that. But the victim who's killed by a driver during a seizure
wouldn't have those problems. Of course, if he is only injured he might
never walk again, or have a job ever again. Perhaps you'd think that it's
subjective ...

There are other things which can drain one financially.

Walking is good exercise - some people do daily it for fun.

Did you seek any support for your mental drainage?

>> What if someone only gets drunk once a month? Should they still be
>> allowed - legally - to drive?
>
> Um, yes? I get drunk much more often than that and I drive. Or did you
> mean if they *drink drive* once a month?

Of course I did. I think it's better not to get drunk at all, I like being
in control of myself. But each to his own.

>> The legislation on number of fits in a given time was changed - to our
>> advantage - about ten years ago. Before then it was more stringent. That
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> to
> realise that again.

If you think that there's no point in telling us. Persuade the authorities
that you're right since you think you are.

And do let us know what reply you're given.

Mary

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Satch - 22 Dec 2004 05:22 GMT

> > What if someone only gets drunk once a month? Should they still be
> > allowed - legally - to drive?
>
> Um, yes? I get drunk much more often than that and I drive. Or did you
> mean if they *drink drive* once a month?

Getting drunks triggers a seizure. While you are getting drunk, most times,
you are affected by lack of sleep as well. This triggers seizures also. You
may want to avoid that and then the 2 months period is not being resetted so
that you can drive again. I got a seizure this year because I had been a
binge drinker (only during the weekends / Saturday nights when I went out
with some friends) since I was a teenager. With epilepsy this is a bad thing
to do -except for one or two beverages which is fine. So, I have not been
drinking anymore since my first / last seizure and I am about to get my
drivers license back mid February 2005. I find it extremely sensational to
enjoy my Saturday nights again with the same friends with some non alcohol
drinks having the same amount of fun. Of course, while you are drunk or had
some alcohol, it is another sensation of fun but that simply doesn't work
out for me anymore. I am also trying to avoid as much of lack of sleep and
stress which works out well for me now.

So, if you are in the drinking game while you are diagnosed with epilepsy,
then there may be a good chance you won't get your license back for ever. I
stopped drinking and I am fine now. What Mary said, there is one person in
this newsgroup, who sometimes joins these kind of discussion as he indeed
killed someone. It is really horrible experience. Try avoiding this.

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Thanks.

Marco
The Netherlands

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