Hi all,
Have you ever thought about the possibility that people with epilepsy may,
in some cases, have developed their condition not because of a brain defect
as such, but because the brain is inherently inferior to the mind? In effect
I'm concerned with the possibility that epilepsy can result from a design
defect (of the brain) rather than a construction defect. This supposition
could be viewed as a logical extension to the idea that that those with
"acquired" structural damage have a mind that is superior to their impaired
brain circuitry.
The whole idea is based on the premise that the brain and the mind are two
separate entities ("dualism"). If you do not believe that dualism has merit
then it is probably best that you read no further!
I might just say that before my seizures were controlled (by Lamotrigine) I
would usually become confused while thinking about this subject. So please
proceed with caution if you choose to read on.
Could it be that the human brain, the most complex object in the known
universe, has now evolved to a point whereby further improvement is hindered
by the underlying building-blocks of the brain? Could our advanced level of
consciousness be outstripping the means that the brain can provide to
support it? Most people would say that the brain still has a long way to go
before it reaches a point where further improvement is unlikely. You might
say however that the brain can improve, but only after a great deal of
evolutionary trial and error. When you're building a house of cards, it is
possible to go higher than you first expected, but it could very well take a
number of failures beforehand.
How can I claim that the mind could be superior to the brain? After all,
isn't the mind a product of the brain? Shouldn't the brain be able to
control anything that it creates? Without going into too much detail, my
thoughts are that the brain is a vehicle for the mind. Improvements in the
brain can certainly give us a clearer focus on reality. I see the brain as
being analogous to a pair of spectacles, through which our minds "view"
their surroundings. The better the brain, the more clearly the mind comes
into its own, or expresses itself. But advances in the brain could
potentially lead to advances in the mind which the brain cannot in turn
accommodate.
I'm not going to go much further with this just yet, but I'll try to give
you an example of how epilepsy and perhaps countless other conditions could
result from the advanced brain.
I know that in my case I am more likely to have a problem when my thoughts
turn inward. I sincerely believe that since early childhood I have been what
you might call a deep thinker. Certainly a deeper thinker than most people I
know. I constantly evaluate things that I do, particularly the things that I
say, and so I clearly fall into the category of somebody who is
self-conscious, or self-aware. Most people tend to regard this as a defect
in itself, particulary those in modern capitalist society, but there are
others who see inward thought as a good thing. Some might say that people
who closely evaluate their decisions would be more likely to consider
whether or not their decisions are based on greed and/or opportunism. Of
course even those people will at least occasionally make decisions that are
opportunistic as well, but at least they've gone to the trouble of thinking
about whether or not they are achieving benefits at the expense of others.
Surely this is a good thing.
I believe that self-consciousness can be a contributing factor to epilepsy.
So how can self-consciousness contribute to epilepsy? Let me give you an
example of what my thought patterns have been in the period (usually within
2 days) leading up to a seizure.
Imagine that I have a friend named Ian. Imagine that I'm planning to see Ian
in a couple of days and also that I'm rehearsing in my mind some of the
things that I'm going to say to him when we meet. My thoughts could proceed
as follows...
<I think about Ian>
"Hi Ian, Ive been thinking about you"
<Now however the situation is slightly different to what it was before that
first thought. So my thoughts have to be re-calculated if they are going to
be accurate>
"Hi Ian, I've been thinking about thinking about you"
<I'm immediately aware that the situation has changed again>
"Hi Ian, I've been thinking about thinking about thinking about you"
<Things can also head in a slightly different direction>
"I've been thinking about thinking Hi Ian, I've been thinking..."
At about this point I begin to wish that the whole thing would stop.
Although it began as a thought that I thought I was controlling, it finished
up being a rollercoaster that I had to try hard to control. But trying
didn't help. Why? Because my thoughts *have to* turn inwards if I'm going to
try to attempt to control what I'm thinking. This is no different to the
everyday situation where I monitor my thoughts as if to understand what I am
thinking. There is an unavoidable loop between the observer and the
observed. The observer is the mind that is observing the thoughts and the
observed is the thoughts. The inevitable feedback from the observed to the
observer ensures that the decline continues. There is no effective mechanism
to prevent the feedback. If I was told at this point to not think about pink
elephants I would almost certainly not be able to get pink elephants out of
my mind. Unfortunately at the end of this process the house of cards comes
tumbling down. While I have the ability evaluate my own thoughts, it leads
to my eventual downfall because, perhaps, it was never meant to be. Turning
my thoughts inwards is the last thing I need at that time but unfortunately
self-consciousness can feed on itself, driving the thoughts ever deeper.
If there are others who can relate to any of what I've said then I would
like to take this interesting topic further one day. Unfortunately striking
up a conversation this way is a bit like dangling a hook in the ocean or
perhaps putting up a billboard in the middle of the Sahara. With a bit of
luck somebody will find it interesting though. In terms of my personal
experience, I had uncontrolled epilepsy for 20 years. Although it is now
under control I'm always open to learning more about it. In a world of
paradoxes, epilepsy might have some of its own.
djw
(dj for short)
Mary Fisher - 11 Sep 2004 14:15 GMT
<very long snip>
> djw
> (dj for short)
Oh - you do know how to do short then ...
gaross - 11 Sep 2004 16:14 GMT
*** I put some general meandering comments at **s and snipped liberally
below. We'll see how many people might read 5-6 page first posts? but you
never know. (Also the weekend may be quieter than during the week from
time to time and many people in N.America are watching Hurricanes in
Progress and the "9/11 Memorial Services" on TV.) G.
> Hi all,
> Have you ever thought about the possibility that people with epilepsy may,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> separate entities ("dualism"). If you do not believe that dualism has merit
> then it is probably best that you read no further!
****snipped****.
> I'm not going to go much further with this just yet, but I'll try to give
> you an example of how epilepsy and perhaps countless other conditions could
> result from the advanced brain.
**G** Perhaps I should have thanked the Mosquito I killed, before I did,
for giving me the Encephalitis that lead to my 'advanced brain' and needing
a map to find my own house from 1979 to 1983. The rest of my 'normal
memory' functions didn't start to return until 1986, and the seizures didn't
start until 1993.
The Trouble with Generalizations might include that each of us might
have different trigger points or *causes that lead to this group. While
some had seizures from childhood, several have had 'late onset' or other
causes that might suggest alternate causes. G./
> I know that in **my case** I am more likely to have a problem when my
thoughts
> turn inward. I sincerely believe that since early childhood I have been what
> you might call a deep thinker. Certainly a deeper thinker than most people
I know.
**G* And you're Humble too!! :->
I constantly evaluate things that I do, particularly the things that I
> say, and so I clearly fall into the category of somebody who is
> self-conscious, or self-aware. Most people tend to regard this as a defect
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I believe that self-consciousness can be a contributing factor to epilepsy.
Let me give you an example (usually within 2 days) leading up to a
seizure.
> Imagine that I have a friend named Ian. Imagine that I'm planning to see Ian
> in a couple of days and also that I'm rehearsing in my mind some of the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> didn't help. Why? Because my thoughts *have to* turn inwards if I'm going to
> try to attempt to control what I'm thinking.
***G* This might Not apply but you could do a search wrt. Epilepsy and
Kindling. I think that's a case where a repeated sensation or thought can
build in intensity until it becomes invasive (to the person having it) or
dissipates. I also put up a First Aid for szrs. link about 2? days ago that
describes some side effects of different seizure types. Perhaps some of the
effects you describe are on there, and if you now have control (below)
those feelings might dissipate if they were caused? by electrical firing
that accompanies some of our seizure types. Or not. G./
> If there are others who can relate to any of what I've said then I would
> like to take this interesting topic further one day. Unfortunately striking
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> under control I'm always open to learning more about it. In a world of
> paradoxes, epilepsy might have some of its own.
***G* Mmmm, most things benefit from more research and study. Most of
the stuff I'd read or experienced ultimately had an explanation or a
physical cause that contributed to a particular seizure type I had. But
that's just me. I haven't needed some 'outside' cause or global awakening
to describe the events and types of seizures and temporal lobe damage (from
the encephalitis) to function. G. /
> djw
> (dj for short)
Dave ???? - 11 Sep 2004 18:52 GMT
Howdy DJ!
My first suggestian is to broaden your horizens a bit re: dualism.
Check out the concept of "NON-DUALISM" in eastern philosophy.
For a quick reference:
Philosophies of India
By Heinrich Zimmer
Ed. Joseph Campbell
Pub: Billingen Series/Princeton
For more complete coverage:
Indian Philosophy (2 volumes)
By: S. Radhakrishnan
Pub.: Oxford

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Dave ????
http://www.howdydave.com
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 113 lines]
> djw
> (dj for short)
Mary Fisher - 11 Sep 2004 20:45 GMT
> Howdy DJ!
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> By: S. Radhakrishnan
> Pub.: Oxford
Cor!
I'm even more impressed with you, Dave :-)
Mary
Dave ???? - 11 Sep 2004 22:32 GMT
> > Howdy DJ!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Mary
Howdy Mary!
'Twern't nuthin'... I read it on a bubble gum wrapper!

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Dave ????
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Mary Fisher - 11 Sep 2004 22:44 GMT
> > > Howdy DJ!
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> 'Twern't nuthin'... I read it on a bubble gum wrapper!
You can read and chew at the same time?
I didn't mean that, I really didn't ... oh heck how can I get out of this
one ?
Kiss kiss,
M
Dave ???? - 11 Sep 2004 22:48 GMT
> > > > Howdy DJ!
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> M
Howdy Mary!
It's a valid question, and the answer is:
"No I can't, that's why I switched to snuff!"

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Dave ????
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Mary Fisher - 12 Sep 2004 09:07 GMT
> > > > > My first suggestian is to broaden your horizens a bit re: dualism.
> > > > >
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> It's a valid question, and the answer is:
> "No I can't, that's why I switched to snuff!"
Oh Dave, my drawers will never dry!
Mary
Dave ???? - 13 Sep 2004 06:37 GMT
> > > > > > My first suggestian is to broaden your horizens a bit re: dualism.
> > > > > >
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> Mary
Howdy Mary!
Care for a pinch?

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Dave ????
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Mary Fisher - 13 Sep 2004 09:45 GMT
> > > > > > > My first suggestian is to broaden your horizens a bit re:
> dualism.
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> Care for a pinch?
If it does for me what it's done for you, yes please :-)
On the other hand, do I want a bigger moustache ... ?
Mary
Dave ???? - 14 Sep 2004 01:57 GMT
> > > > > > > > My first suggestian is to broaden your horizens a bit re:
> > dualism.
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>
> Mary
Howdy Mary!
I could always give you the "other kind" of pinch! :P

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Mary Fisher - 14 Sep 2004 11:58 GMT
> > > > > > > > > My first suggestian is to broaden your horizens a bit re:
> > > dualism.
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
>
> I could always give you the "other kind" of pinch! :P
Now you're talking :-)
M
justme - 14 Sep 2004 05:08 GMT
>>>>>>>>My first suggestian is to broaden your horizens a bit re:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>
> On the other hand, do I want a bigger moustache ... ?
> Mary
a bigger moustache heh? i got one and its a pain!
Mary Fisher - 14 Sep 2004 11:59 GMT
> >>>>>>>>My first suggestian is to broaden your horizens a bit re:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>
> a bigger moustache heh? i got one and its a pain!
Spouse has one but it's attached to a large beard. I love it but I don't
want mine to grow any bigger!
Mary
djw - 14 Sep 2004 11:12 GMT
Dave ???? wrote in message ...
>Howdy DJ!
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>--
>Dave ????
Hi Dave,
I think we might be taking slightly different paths here. I'd better start
with the caveat that I know nothing of the dualism (or non-dualism) that
applies to eastern philosophy. I was referring to the dualist interpretation
of human consciousness, which holds that the mind exists in a separate realm
to the material world. If dualism is correct in its most liberal form, it
gives rise to certain possibilities:
- A person can subjectively monitor his or her own thoughts
- Thoughts can affect the brain which can in turn affect thoughts and so on
in a recursive pattern
Because of my experience I can strongly identify with these possibilities.
But because dualism is not greatly accepted in the scientific world, I
thought it was worth mentioning that my statements hinged on something that
is at best questionable.
dj
Dave ???? - 11 Sep 2004 22:45 GMT
Howdy DJ!
My appologies...
My first answer was a bit crisp.
I would suggest that you look into yoga.
Not just that "Hatha-yoga for exercise" crap, but the philosophy.
That's what I did. These days I don't look at myself as a 2-part person but
as a 3-part person.
The body (including the brain),
The mind and
The Self!
(n.b. the capital "S")

Signature
Dave ????
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> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 113 lines]
> djw
> (dj for short)
UnknowableOrigin - 12 Sep 2004 01:19 GMT
It seems pretty clear that electro-shock therapy was inspired by seizures.
Maybe the illness that inspires treatment by electroshock relates to the mind's
pushing on the limits of the brain's ability to incorporate its functioning?
So is the seizure in effect an "on-the-fly" brain redesign? This would fit the
theory that seizures were designed into the human brain to accomodate unforseen
eventualities. One percent of the population with seizures is not an
insignificant chunk of humanity.
Mary Fisher - 12 Sep 2004 09:08 GMT
> It seems pretty clear that electro-shock therapy was inspired by seizures.
> Maybe the illness that inspires treatment by electroshock relates to the mind's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> eventualities. One percent of the population with seizures is not an
> insignificant chunk of humanity.
My brain hurts ...
CyberCafe - 15 Sep 2004 17:41 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 113 lines]
> djw
> (dj for short)
You brought up an interesting thing, something I really hadn't thought about for
a while. When my seizures were not controlled, and that covers a lot of years,
I did a lot of thinking, sometimes kind of planning like you do. It didn't
matter if I was busy or not (like working at my job). My brain was always
thinking and planning. It was like involuntary, and I couldn't just shut it
off. I don't have problems with that since I've had good control with my meds
(thank goodness because it gets tiring).
Barb
TIMMCO - 16 Sep 2004 18:45 GMT
>You brought up an interesting thing, something I really hadn't thought about
>for
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Barb
Hmmmm - tiring??? I can think of no better use of the human brain than some
intensive thinking.
Mary Fisher - 16 Sep 2004 20:56 GMT
> >You brought up an interesting thing, something I really hadn't thought about
> >for
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Hmmmm - tiring??? I can think of no better use of the human brain than some
> intensive thinking.
Enjoying the effects of chocolate?
Mary
UnknowableOrigin - 17 Sep 2004 00:40 GMT
>Enjoying the effects of chocolate?
>
>Mary
Mary - was that pre or post orgasm?
Dave ???? - 17 Sep 2004 02:07 GMT
> >Enjoying the effects of chocolate?
> >
> >Mary
>
> Mary - was that pre or post orgasm?
YES!

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Dave ????
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Dave ???? - 17 Sep 2004 02:10 GMT
> > >Enjoying the effects of chocolate?
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> YES!
Howdy Mary!
I'm sorry... :(
I promissed that I wouldn't kiss & tell, didn't I?

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justme - 17 Sep 2004 03:23 GMT
Dave ©¿©¬ wrote:
>>>>Enjoying the effects of chocolate?
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I promissed that I wouldn't kiss & tell, didn't I?
gotta be the moustache ~"~
Mary Fisher - 28 Sep 2004 12:07 GMT
>> > >Enjoying the effects of chocolate?
>> > >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I promissed that I wouldn't kiss & tell, didn't I?
Yes - but you must have had the light out and not noticed that it wasn't me.
I've been in the Highlands (of Scotland) and you weren't there even in my
dreams ... :-)
Mary
CyberCafe - 17 Sep 2004 04:18 GMT
> >You brought up an interesting thing, something I really hadn't thought about
> >for
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Hmmmm - tiring??? I can think of no better use of the human brain than some
> intensive thinking.
My brain wasn't using the thinking time in a creative way. It was basically kind
of low level boring stuff. I think it kind of got in the way of things I should
have been thinking of. You're really lucky if you got something positive out of
it.
Barb