Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Epilepsy / July 2004
My take on Driving with Epilepsy
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bugs@bugs.com - 25 Jul 2004 18:05 GMT I hope this doesn't get to long but this is a real sore spot for me and I need to vent just a little bit.
Here are my opinions about Driving with Epilepsy. If I am having seizures I will not drive. If my seizures are not controlled I will not drive, period end of story. However, I do not think we need to be singled out by the DMV just because we have Epilepsy or seizures. Oh but we are. I once was caused to lose my license over this very subject so what it did was cause me not to seek the proper medical help I needed. It does the same to others I have known. I went into an interview when I appealed the decision to revoke my D/L and I got very nasty with the lady doing the interviewing because I was like a snake that had been backed into a corner. I was ready to attack. I felt as if I was about to lose my family and everything I had. I was very angry. I answered every question this lady ask me with a question that she could not answer. She ask me if I had said I had epilepsy when I applied for my license, I said do you ask people if they have an alcohol or drug addiction when they apply for their license? She said "well no we would have to be testing all of them for substance abuse." I said "don't you think that would make that number come down?" I pointed to a big a.s banner she had hanging on the wall behind her desk that said something like last year xxxxxxx people died in alcohol related traffic accidents. She said "that's not why we are here!" I looked at her and said "O really, I thought you were concerned about people getting killed on the highways, so you will just give me my D/L back and I can leave then right?" She just stared at me. Lets move on she said. We went on and she would say something about the Drs and I would say you me a.sholes and she said no I mean Doctors. I said you call them what you want I will call them what they really are. I was referring to this one in particular, not them all in general. I ask her what about a person that has had a history of heart problems do they get to keep their license? She said yes, what about a person with severe Diabetes do they get to drive and she said as long as their medicine is regulated there should be no problems, and I ask her then you require them to disclose their condition right and she said NO. I couldn't believe the audacity of this lady. I feel when they single one group of people out like they have us it is wrong. What about a person driving and coming up to a stop sign or an intersection and all of a sudden they sneeze. During that sneeze they cannot see what is happening and I have even seen people sneeze and take their hands completely off the steering wheel of the car to cover their face.
I ask the DMV this question and it made the fighting mad but there was nothing they could do or say....on New Years Eve it is just after midnight and you are driving down the road you see a car swerving back and forth across the lanes and you say to your self what? This person is having a seizure? or This person must be drunk? They got ten kinds of pissed off at me over that one. But it is a very legitimate question.
The way the laws are today are such that it actually inhibits those that are not controlled from seeking out help because they know they will lose their license. I agree that if you are not under control you or I neither one should be driving, but once under control we should not be punished for something that causes far less problems in a 10 year period than alcohol causes in a single month. That is about the ratio of accidents the last time I heard the figures which were very hard to find.
I finally got my license back and when I did get them back the biggest irony of all played out. They were stamped with a "Safe Driver Seal?" I looked at the person at the DMV and told him "That's strange you folks were concerned about me killing someone now you say I am a safe driver
I ask one and all that may read this if your seizures are active please do yourself and all of us a favor and DO NOT DRIVE. However if your seizures are under control and you are not having seizures then I urge you to stand up and fight for your rights and stay the battle and get your license. But if during the time you have your license you become active with your seizures again go on the honor system and tell your doctor you have stopped driving until they can get something worked out. I have found that it helps to be proactive. If you tell the Doctor up front, DR I had to stop driving because I need your help, they are more willing to help you. And be honest with them and with yourself, don't drive until you are under control again.
This is only my personal opinion and I am sure others will feel differently. I welcome comments and thoughts, that is why I posted this here.
 Signature I wish you all the best
Tim W
www.onepest.com
Theo - 25 Jul 2004 19:07 GMT > I ask one and all that may read this if your seizures are active > please do yourself and all of us a favor and DO NOT DRIVE. Consider all the ads on TV about preventing drinking and driving (Ive never seen one about seizures, btw). Then consider how many people still do it. Next consider that its gotten to the point where bars are getting sued because they didnt intervene more.
There was a story in the last month about a bar that had to fight a lawsuit and it closed because the owner could not afford the legal bills... even though he won I think. Im sure doctors are quite worried about the lawsuit-happy society we have now days. So really we shouldnt blame them... especially if a state has gone the extra step and 'required' notification. As an asside, I know insurance for doctors delivering babies is very high. I wonder what it is for neuros.
But.....
consider the 6 month - 1 year seizure free requirement similar to what the elderly have to go through in proving their capability to drive every year. Has nothing to do with physical abilities... only age. Remember the big uproar when that law passed? So while I also dont like epileptics being profiled like this... and it is profiling based on disability... we are not the only ones that can be suspended before we even do anything wrong. It is grating how other much more severe driver problems are given more of a pass. Then again, we dont get arrested for having seizures... even if in an accident (I dont think).
Eric - 26 Jul 2004 17:28 GMT > > I ask one and all that may read this if your seizures are active > > please do yourself and all of us a favor and DO NOT DRIVE. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > more of a pass. Then again, we dont get arrested for having seizures... > even if in an accident (I dont think). I agree with all you have said. I however, live in Tennessee, where it doesn't matter, as Doctors are not required by law to disclose it. I have problems now with simple partials (auras) that don't affect my driving, but do serve as a warning not to drive for a few days until I get over it. I lost my license once because of a idiot neurologist who required I surrender it to save his own hide. Of course he was too dumb to know the state laws. He, however, disclosed to the State Dept. of Safety the warnings I have through auras and I got my license back in 3 mos. I also almost lost my license again last year when I forgot about taking some lorazepam and crashed. It reminded me of how dangerous my condition and drug side effects are. I barely kept my license after I had a doctor explain what happened. Anyway, I broke two ribs from the seat belt and busted my nose on the airbag. That was definitely a wake-up call. The dept. of safety was real discriminatory and hated me when I had my license renewed the first time around, I felt vindictive enough to complain, but let it pass.
Know how you feel,
Eric
CyberCafe - 25 Jul 2004 21:16 GMT > I hope this doesn't get to long but this is a real sore spot for me and I > need to vent just a little bit. [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > www.onepest.com Most of the driving laws are ancient and need to be updated to reflect the significant changes in drugs and medical advances. I think the DMVs need to stop lumping all the various forms of epilepsy under just one category. In my state, for example, even if a person has a seizure form that does not result in loss of consciousness or altered consciousness, that's too bad. It's epilepsy, boom, driver's license revoked. If the government does things like that that could deprive a person of the ability to meet their own needs, then how about allowing those people to get some type of disability so they can hire private transportation services to get to where they need to go. Where I live, there is no public transportation, period. I would also like to see zoning changes so that some services (such as small grocery stores, medical/dental services, etc.) could be located in residential areas (within walking distance of a person's home). I'm not just thinking about us folks with epilepsy but also the elderly, people without cars, and so on. Just my opinion.
Barb
turbinado - 27 Jul 2004 01:10 GMT ... I would also like to see zoning changes so
> that some services (such as small grocery stores, medical/dental services, etc.) > could be located in residential areas (within walking distance of a person's > home). I'm not just thinking about us folks with epilepsy but also the elderly, > people without cars, and so on. Just my opinion. > > Barb That's a good idea. There are people in every community who can't drive for whatever reason, and the zoning laws should accommodate that fact.
Marco - 26 Jul 2004 18:25 GMT > I hope this doesn't get to long but this is a real sore spot for me and I > need to vent just a little bit. I live in The Netherlands and after one tonic clonic seizure last February I cannot drive for one year because of the law. My neurologist told me that and did not do anything (no requirement to report me to our local DMV). It is of course ethic not to drive for such a year because of that single seizure.
So, I can start driving again mid February 2005 with no problems with my insurance company. Hopefully I remain seizure free forever but depending on how I feel, I decide if driving is a good thing to do anyway for me personally.
 Signature Take care.
Bye, Marco
Mary Fisher - 26 Jul 2004 21:56 GMT > > I hope this doesn't get to long but this is a real sore spot for me and I > > need to vent just a little bit. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > is of course ethic not to drive for such a year because of that single > seizure. When I had my single seizure (in my sleep) my licence to drive was removed. It was awful, I felt as though I'd been grounded and I really suffered.
Gradually I came to realise that driving is a privilege, not a right. It's a privilege because we now have cars. In past centuries we didn't have cars and we had to make our own ways to places - as I had to do without a licence. Those people in the past didn't grumble because they had no other experiences.
It's not the end of the world not to be able to drive. It changes one's perspective of life but it IS possible to accommodate.
We don't have television, many people can't understand how we can survive without it, it's actually far easier not to have one than it is to have one. The same applies to most 'conveniences'.
We don't have many modern conveniences, from choice and because we feel that we have a better quality of life without them. They're not important, people are more important than things. We should love people and use things, not use people and love things ...
> So, I can start driving again mid February 2005 with no problems with my > insurance company. Hopefully I remain seizure free forever but depending on > how I feel, I decide if driving is a good thing to do anyway for me > personally. And if you're NOT seizure free forever and you have a fit while driving ... ?
Take care, Marco, take care.
Mary
> Bye, > Marco Theo - 27 Jul 2004 01:47 GMT "Mary Fisher" <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in news:41056fe8$0$22309 $4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net:
> Gradually I came to realise that driving is a privilege, not a right. Try suggesting that the state should automatically suspend all alcoholics for safety reasons. Actually there are many people/organisations that would agree. But trying to make it law and would make trying to pass health care reform seem easy. Yes its a privilege. But granting and revoking that privilage should be more even handed in the case of epileptics.
Or try this. Lets say it was law. And lets say AA had to report all its members who identified themselves as alcoholics (most everyone who belongs) to the state. I doubt it would have members for very long. They use something akin to doctor patient privilage when the state asks for information. Funny how actual doctors are required to report in certain states without even being directly asked to do so.
Marco - 27 Jul 2004 05:27 GMT > "Mary Fisher" <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in news:41056fe8$0$22309 > $4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.net: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > information. Funny how actual doctors are required to report in certain > states without even being directly asked to do so. It is funny that you guys in the States have differernt laws which is a little bit of confusing for foreigners like me. As I understand one posting, then there is that other person in another posting so to speak.
I guess when the AA reports every alcoholic, then there are no more traffic jams :-)
 Signature Take care.
Bye, Marco
Marco - 27 Jul 2004 05:24 GMT >>> I hope this doesn't get to long but this is a real sore spot for me and > I [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > licence. Those people in the past didn't grumble because they had no other > experiences. You are right however if you are a truck driver and you have been doing that for your whole live and you just became father of two children, then it does feel like someone took away your right "to survive". There are others out there willing to take over your job. Nowadays it is not that easy to find employment -especially when someone does not have a drivers license. I am not talking about epilepsy by the way.
> It's not the end of the world not to be able to drive. It changes one's > perspective of life but it IS possible to accommodate. For me personally, that is possible HOWEVER my company is restructuring which means everyone will get two choises: 1. in stead of phone support => go to your client and help him out with whatever he needs; 2. become first point of contact for partners => how to get through the other side of the country or how to get from The Netherlands to the other part of the Benelux without a drivers license?
I guess when they provide me with these two options, I will have to resign and find myself another job and then the challenges start within my live because I still have NO drivers license AND I have epilepsy. Can you imagine how that makes live more difficult. I still have to eat so to speak.
> We don't have television, many people can't understand how we can survive > without it, it's actually far easier not to have one than it is to have one. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > are more important than things. We should love people and use things, not > use people and love things ... These people are still out there -it is almost scarry :-) But you DO have a computer :-)
>> So, I can start driving again mid February 2005 with no problems with my >> insurance company. Hopefully I remain seizure free forever but depending [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And if you're NOT seizure free forever and you have a fit while driving ... > ? That is what I meant: there is an ethic part when someone is diagnosed with epilepsy and when one is deciding to drive again. As I said before: when you are 30 years old and when you are employed and when you are doing something that you like for a living that requires a drivers license, then there are sometimes times that there is a musthave need for that drivers license.
One year of seizure free should be a good testing period to see if someone can get his license back and it should be a good period to make some behavioral changes like I have been doing recently so that more seizures can be avoided.
 Signature Take care.
Bye, Marco
Mary Fisher - 27 Jul 2004 10:45 GMT Before I reply to your comments I'd like to say how surprised (and pleased) I was that you didn't curse and scream at me. Your response is intelligent and measured - that doesn't mean that I agree with it all :-)
<snip>
> > Gradually I came to realise that driving is a privilege, not a right. It's a > > privilege because we now have cars. In past centuries we didn't have cars [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > easy to find employment -especially when someone does not have a drivers > license. I am not talking about epilepsy by the way. Well, 'not easy' isn't impossible.
> > It's not the end of the world not to be able to drive. It changes one's > > perspective of life but it IS possible to accommodate. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > other side of the country or how to get from The Netherlands to the other > part of the Benelux without a drivers license? No alternative transport? No alternative posts in the company? No alternative companies?
By the way, before I go any further these questions could be described as rhetorical. It's unlikely that I'll be back at home in the next week, I shouldn't be here at all but we had to come home from an event to re-stock and saw your post almost accidentally.
> I guess when they provide me with these two options, I will have to resign
> and find myself another job and then the challenges start within my live > because I still have NO drivers license AND I have epilepsy. Can you > imagine how that makes live more difficult. I still have to eat so to > speak. I CAN imagine how much more difficult life could be - for a time and then only if you let it. There are options (no, I can't say what) and even if your income is reduced you can adjust your living - and eating - accordingly and even enjoy life more.
Believe me, I do understand. My husband was in low paid work and then was made redundant - and we had five children.
> > We don't have television, many people can't understand how we can survive > > without it, it's actually far easier not to have one than it is to have one. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > These people are still out there -it is almost scarry :-) But you DO have a > computer :-) Yes, I thought I'd said that (although it's self-evident). If I didn't I intended to. And I have other hi-tech stuff like my digital camera. I love modern technology but we prefer to live our lives actively and not passively. But I can't understand why it's scary to live as we do, we have a very rich life.
...
> > And if you're NOT seizure free forever and you have a fit while driving ... > > ? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > there are sometimes times that there is a musthave need for that drivers > license. The ability to drive is certainly desirable and useful but NOT necessary.
> One year of seizure free should be a good testing period to see if someone > can get his license back and it should be a good period to make some > behavioral changes like I have been doing recently so that more seizures > can be avoided. My licence was withdrawn for two years - despite having only one seizure and the cause of it (a tumour) being removed and not needing medication. Then the British law changed and my licence was returned after only eighteen months. After the first distraught weeks of having my wings clipped I found that my life was enriched. When I started driving again it was in a much reduced way. We got rid of our second car because we realised that I'd accommodated to not needing it.
While I wasn't driving I saw more of my city and I became fitter as well as saving money - and a tiny bit of the environment. I'm not preaching, just saying that life CAN continue without being able to drive, even if one's present job depends on it.
Hugs,
Mary
Marco - 27 Jul 2004 18:26 GMT > Before I reply to your comments I'd like to say how surprised (and pleased) > I was that you didn't curse and scream at me. Your response is intelligent > and measured - that doesn't mean that I agree with it all :-) My intentions in this support group are not to scream at anyone, but to listen, to hear how others feel about their seizure disorder, to learn how one feels about how they were forced to change their way of living, how they are dealing with the need for significant behavioral changes that affected their quality of live, any stigmas still occuring, etc., etc.
The drivers license is a sensitive topic. As I read much about epilepsy, all books I read had a chapter about DMV or about similar agencies in other countries. These books already gave me a couple of different views how different people think completely different about epilepsy and whether it is safe to drive a car or motor cycle.
> Well, 'not easy' isn't impossible. Though I sometimes rent a car, I do not own one. As I cannot drive a car right now, it really does not affect my quality of live because I rarely rent a car (only when there is a need to buy some furnishings, etc.) So, I can only give my opinion based on what I read and what I see in this newsgroup. It is not really based on my personal experience though I am worrying about my job as I explained earlier.
> No alternative transport? No alternative posts in the company? No > alternative companies? Yes, they should provide me with some alternatives based on my medical condition and there are alternative ways of transports. However, it is a fact that people always fear for changes that affect their usual way of living. I am one of those people that fear for the "undetermined". Especially when you are diagnosed with epilepsy, then one needs some safety nets including certainties (not only financially based so to speak).
> I CAN imagine how much more difficult life could be - for a time and then > only if you let it. There are options (no, I can't say what) and even if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Believe me, I do understand. My husband was in low paid work and then was > made redundant - and we had five children. That is completely true. I was raised to enjoy live as it was without much luxury though we could afford it.
> Yes, I thought I'd said that (although it's self-evident). If I didn't I > intended to. And I have other hi-tech stuff like my digital camera. I love > modern technology but we prefer to live our lives actively and not > passively. But I can't understand why it's scary to live as we do, we have a > very rich life. No, I was just kiddin' not ridiculing. My parents are living the same live as you do though they have a television, they enjoy live, helping the elderly people in any way they can voluntarily. It all depends how you define a "rich live". Anyone has a different opinion/view regarding quality of live. I would say that you have a "rich live" when you respect others enjoying their life as they live without judging, prejudgement, etc.
> My licence was withdrawn for two years - despite having only one seizure and > the cause of it (a tumour) being removed and not needing medication. Then [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > saying that life CAN continue without being able to drive, even if one's > present job depends on it. I completely agree with that statement -I do not drive a car either (read: reguarly) and last week I bought myself a new bike as the other bike was stolen!
Hugs too :-)
 Signature Take care.
Bye, Marco
Eric - 29 Jul 2004 03:02 GMT > > Before I reply to your comments I'd like to say how surprised (and pleased) > > I was that you didn't curse and scream at me. Your response is intelligent [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > Hugs too :-) I have enjoyed reading all of these posts, believe it or not, because I sometimes feel like I am the only one in the world with my problem. Granted, I had to bicycle around some, but I've seen fellows alot worse off than myself. Lets face it, its not going to change quickly at all.
I do agree with restrictions on alcoholics and the like, and where I live they just get a slap on the wrist and lose their license for 6 mos., except allowing to drive to work and back. One guy I know, a lifetime alcoholic, finally got put in the slammer for 30 days. Wow! Now that seems to be rare from this part of the world.
I also do think restrictions should be put on heart ailments and such, if they are not in some places already.
One thing, off the subject, that comes to my mind immediately is how law enforcement has to use drivers license laws these days. I know a small-town detective who constantly goes and arrests past drug offenders/dealers for driving without a license. They actually stay in jail off of the street longer for this offense than for getting busted for crack or crank.
It is rough to get by when you cannot drive. I think I have it bad off, but I can drive right now. The only terrible thing is not being able to get a job shoveling dog or horse hockey because the employers are so misinformed about epilepsy. People with disabilities actually in the U.S. have just as good or better a work attendance record than normal. This was in a book I read on how to use the ADA to your advantage.
Keep Optimistic,
Eric
Fay - 30 Jul 2004 03:16 GMT I have never had an accident in over 50 years, I am glad the pressure is off me now that I stopped driving. I use Palm Tram service for the aged and for $2.50 each way take me any place in Palm beach co,in Fl. I think that service is extended to any handicap or age person in most city's. Fay
Paul F - 29 Jul 2004 21:21 GMT >When I had my single seizure (in my sleep) my licence to drive was removed. >It was awful, I felt as though I'd been grounded and I really suffered. In the UK you can continue to have seizures whilst asleep and still drive. However you must have had sleep seizures for a period of 3 years first without having a single awake seizure (if that makes sense).
owl - 26 Jul 2004 18:58 GMT owl - 26 Jul 2004 19:13 GMT It never dawn on me ,surely this discrimination having had my driving licence taken away last January I have never been told that I have epilepsy but was put on Tegorol Retard just last January I hope get my D/L/back bye c u Reg
gaross - 26 Jul 2004 18:37 GMT Top post -- reply to note at bottom.
I don't understand, how keeping someone off the road who might *not be controlled (Whether the Doctor told them why they shouldn't drive --e.g. Uncontrolled Epilepsy, Other medical conditions, lack of Reflex speed due to age, etc.) is discrimination? What about the innocent people driving the opposite direction, if someone knowingly drove who had seizures and lost control of their car? When do Their Rights kick in-- after the Airbags open?
Part of a longer (earlier) thread here, discussed possible effects of *One person who's not controlled causing a Serious Accident or Injury, and it's discovered they had uncontrolled Seizures --> that gets onto National Press or TV and 'the rest of us', who happen to be compliant when we're *not controlled, get painted with the same brush.
How fair is that? Well, that was probably from that one person who broke the law.
Tegretol is a common medication used to control seizures, although it's also used for some people who have had strokes and heart conditions, I'd heard, also. If someone was just starting to use Tegretol, they could also have minor seizures as the dose in raised until it reaches the best level (for them) in their blood. At that point they might be controlled and *then they'd be eligible to drive again. And safely. G./
> It never dawn on me ,surely this discrimination having had my driving > licence taken away last January I have never been told that I have epilepsy > but was put on Tegorol Retard just last January I hope get my D/L/back bye > c u Reg bugs@bugs.com - 27 Jul 2004 01:41 GMT > I don't understand, how keeping someone off the road who might *not be > controlled (Whether the Doctor told them why they shouldn't drive --e.g. > Uncontrolled Epilepsy, Other medical conditions, lack of Reflex speed > due > to age, etc.) is discrimination? Gaross I tend to agree with you. I don't think it is discrimination at all, I for one think it is safe practice. Like I said in my original post, if I am not controlled I will not drive end of story. But I don't think we should all be lumped into one category as having seizures simply by answering a question something like "Have you ever had a seizure disorder?" When we say yes, then they will stop the process of getting our license and we have to get letters from our doctors and like what even happened to me I had to wait two years and then request yet a second hearing and I got mine back. That is what I think is wrong. I feel if they are going to ask if you have ever had a seizure disorder then why not ask if you have an alcohol problem or a drug related problem, ask if you have a heart condition or are diabetic. After all there are many things that can cause seizures or seizure like symptoms.
But above all if anyone's seizures are not controlled then why would they want to take a risk of driving and killing themselves or another person?
 Signature I wish you all the best
Tim W
www.onepest.com
Marco - 27 Jul 2004 05:37 GMT >> I don't understand, how keeping someone off the road who might *not be >> controlled (Whether the Doctor told them why they shouldn't drive --e.g. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > But above all if anyone's seizures are not controlled then why would they > want to take a risk of driving and killing themselves or another person? Hey, I do not think that doctor or person can help it. You need to hunt for the politicians who invented that law. You may then have better luck.
As said, I live in The Netherlands and we have a completely different law. I do not know how difficult the Dutch law is regarding simple partials. There are some out there that say that it is possible to drive when you have uncontrolled simple partials during daytime (I have a strange feeling in my thumb that walks through my arm and then it stops? Can that person drive?).
I would bet that person of my imaginary example would drive his car more safely then all car drivers not being diagnosed with epilepsy.
 Signature Take care.
Bye, Marco
Marco - 27 Jul 2004 05:32 GMT > Part of a longer (earlier) thread here, discussed possible effects of > *One person who's not controlled causing a Serious Accident or Injury, and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > How fair is that? Well, that was probably from that one person who > broke the law. Hey dude,
That is a good point. I did not even think about that. Try avoiding negative publicity. We don't want the politicians forced by public opinion to create another more restrictive law for persons diagnosed with epilepsy just because someone did drive his car while that person was not fully controlled for his seizures.
 Signature Take care.
Bye, Marco
Fay - 30 Jul 2004 02:53 GMT This is my first day in your group and my second post.. I don't have epileptic seizures,only Myoclonic ones. I stopped driving a few weeks ago at 89 my problem was double vision I finally got the help I needed with getting new glasses with prisms in the lens after 2 years closing one eye when it was necessary. Fay
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