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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Epilepsy / July 2004

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Complain, complain......! ;-)

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David Ruether - 02 Jul 2004 13:59 GMT
I went to visit "Dr. Welby" (a childhood friend
who became a neurologist, one with his own
clinic) recently, and spent almost a week at his
house under observation, with a 4-day ambulatory
EEG on (results not yet in) - and I was also seen
by an associate of his, a neuropsychiatrist. I had
had "odd" events occur occasionally since early
childhood, but these became a daily problem
(with multiple events of at least six different types)
about nine months ago, about the time of a heart
arrhythmia. In that nine months, my local neurologist
has seen me only three times, has given me the
5-minute neuro exam twice, and he sent me for
an MRI and short EEG only upon suggestion.
He did send me for a sleep study, which proved
important (four heart specialists had seen me
at the time of the arrhythmia, two noted the enlarged
heart, one offered in his notes possible causes
[including sleep apnea], but NONE mentioned this
to me, or pursued the cause!). My (new) GP, who
had seen me for a total of about 20 minutes (ever!),
referred me to the neurologist for "pseudoseizures",
a very prejudicial referral. I had no idea at the
time that neurologists tend to be more concerned
that they do not take seriously a case of
"hysterical/dissociative/conversion-disorder" and
look bad, than in looking for causes for unusual
looking cases without well-defined and recognizable
symptoms. I had been unwittingly "set-up" from
the beginning, and the "corker" was the referral to
a "big-shot" neurologist (the "mentor" of my
neurologist...) in another city. His job, it appears
now (since he bothered with little in the exam),
was to convince me I had this disorder, and to start
the 7-10 year course of psychiatric therapy to try
to rid myself of this "disorder".

A friend very recently went to the same local
neurological office as I did ("the best in town"),
but saw a different neurologist. Her complaints
were moderate headaches (that could get bad),
and sometimes feeling dizzy. Result: on the *first*
appointment, she gets the 1-hour neuro exam, an
AED prescription, and is sent for an MRI and the
long-form EEG! I would have been "cooling my
heels" still, if I had not suggested some of this to
my neuro, well after the first appointment, and with
continuous seizing! My neurologist friend had been
observing my treatment here and had been feeding
me the suggestions for my neuro, or *nothing*
would have happened for me. When even this
technique came to a stop (my local neuro has me
on appointments many months apart, and will do
no more - and why would he, since this is "in my
head"?), my friend sent me a supply of Depakote.
One month in, soon after 1500mg/day, I suddenly
felt great, and free of all this nonsense. It "fell
apart" after six days, and was gone by the 9th,
but it felt great while it lasted. The insecurity
about mental state and ability to move reliably
was gone for a while. During the visit in another
state, while with him, both he and his associate
observed me in seizures, and called them that
(nurses had seen me in them here, but that info
was ignored by the neuros here...). When I was
taken off the Depakote (while on the 4-day EEG),
I seized and was returned immediately to it, but
things have not yet stabilized again...

Best current guess as to what happened to me:
a bad set of coincidences got me into trouble, not
a specific disease or syndrome. Pre-natal brain
damage set me up for sensitivity to some types of
assaults (and for minor seizures); sleep apnea
caused some more brain damage; the arrhythmia
plus treatment plus lengthy 02-deprived sleep for
weeks afterward got me into more trouble; catching
the apnea stopped that source of problems, but by
then, I was seizing as many as a dozen times a day.
Now, I'm back where I was a few months ago,
unable to go out of the house alone, drive, or even
walk reliably (complain. complain...;-), but at least
now, there is hope that with careful use of the
CPAP gear for the apnea, with determining a useful
dose and type of AED, and with careful taking of
it (including avoiding things that upset levels, or
trigger events), that I may get some of my life back.
Meanwhile, I don't walk near glass objects or near
high edges...;-)

--DR
Bob - 03 Jul 2004 01:28 GMT
> [. . . }
>  my friend sent me a supply of Depakote.
> One month in, soon after 1500mg/day, I suddenly
> felt great, and free of all this nonsense. It "fell
> apart" after six days, and was gone by the 9th,
> but it felt great while it lasted.

That's a shame! Does your friend have any theories as to why it would
stop working?

> The insecurity
> about mental state and ability to move reliably
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I seized and was returned immediately to it, but
> things have not yet stabilized again...

I'm a bit confused here. Did this 4-day EEG fall within the 6 day period
above? or are you continuing with Depakote although it no longer gives
you any benefit??

> [. . . ]

All the best to you!

Bob
David Ruether - 03 Jul 2004 03:56 GMT
> > [. . .]
> >  my friend sent me a supply of Depakote.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > but it felt great while it lasted.
> > [...]

> That's a shame! Does your friend have any theories as to why it would
> stop working?

Yes. It is sensitive to exact dose timing and not taking
things that interfer with it or affect its blood levels.
Also, dosing is a process of "fooling" the liver (blood
filter) and brain (with its own defenses against
"poisons") with a level that is reliable. At 1500mg/day,
we suceeded in first experiencing good results, but
the liver and brain "learned" to offer better defenses,
and higher dosing is now necessary. The trip itself
and being off Depakote for a day for the EEG also
were upsetting to the process of stabilization. I hope
to regain "good times" again soon, though!

> > The insecurity
> > about mental state and ability to move reliably
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> > I seized and was returned immediately to it, but
> > things have not yet stabilized again...

> I'm a bit confused here. Did this 4-day EEG fall within the 6 day period
> above?

No. I was not clear. I lost "control" a week or so
before the trip, and increased the dose to 2000mg/day.
This had not stabilized me by the time I started the
4-day EEG. I was at 2000mg for the first day, then
none for the second (I continued to have the usual
minor problems while on Depakote, but not the
"jitters/jerks" of before). The morning of the next day,
I seized badly enough that I went back on at 1000mg
in the morning and 1250 in the evening, and 1250x2
after that. I'm waiting for the blood results from that
level now...

> or are you continuing with Depakote although it no longer gives
> you any benefit??

It may still work, once things settle down...

> > [. . . ]

> All the best to you!
>
> Bob

Thanks.
--DR
Bob - 03 Jul 2004 04:08 GMT
> [. . . ]
>
> It may still work, once things settle down...

Will he stick with a monotherapy or will something else be added to the mix?
It doesn't look like that's in the plans.

Bob
David Ruether - 03 Jul 2004 04:35 GMT
> > [. . . ]
> > It may still work, once things settle down...

> Will he stick with a monotherapy or will something else be added to the mix?
> It doesn't look like that's in the plans.
>
> Bob

I'm hoping Depakote works at a level lower than
totally-toxic (I like my liver...;-), but there is not a
lot higher to go. The sleep apnea is also a contributing
factor (and part of the original cause), so controlling
it is essential before any long-term treatment will
work - and there are still problems with that. Other
AEDs and mixes are possible (and mentioned), but
I don't want to go there just yet (based on problems
I've read about in this NG...;-), and Topamax was
a disaster for me (though it also stopped the
"jitters & jerks").
--DR
Bob - 03 Jul 2004 15:47 GMT
> > > [. . . ]
> > > It may still work, once things settle down...
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> totally-toxic (I like my liver...;-), but there is not a
> lot higher to go.

I didn't think you were that high.  I'm reading here that max dose seems to be  60
mg/kg/day and serum concentration should be limited to 50-100 mcg/ml.

> The sleep apnea is also a contributing
> factor (and part of the original cause), so controlling
> it is essential before any long-term treatment will
> work - and there are still problems with that.

Hmmm  ?  Arousal index still up there or?

> Other
> AEDs and mixes are possible (and mentioned), but
> I don't want to go there just yet (based on problems
> I've read about in this NG...;-),

You'll probably want to get the CPAP working better for you before changing
anything else?  or could it be the other way around?

> and Topamax was
> a disaster for me (though it also stopped the
> "jitters & jerks").

One for you to stay away from.

I really like what I see in that your "Dr. Welby" explains what's going on with
the drugs and answers your questions. What a change! :-)

Bob
David Ruether - 04 Jul 2004 16:47 GMT
> > > > [. . . ]
> > > > It may still work, once things settle down...

> > > Will he stick with a monotherapy or will something else be added to the mix?
> > > It doesn't look like that's in the plans.

> > I'm hoping Depakote works at a level lower than
> > totally-toxic (I like my liver...;-), but there is not a
> > lot higher to go.

> I didn't think you were that high.  I'm reading here that max dose seems to be  60
> mg/kg/day and serum concentration should be limited to 50-100 mcg/ml.

I'm about 235 pounds, and 2500mg/day Depakote ER.
Just checked trough level of valproic acid in blood, and
it is at 95 mcg/ml. My friend may take it to 125...

> > The sleep apnea is also a contributing
> > factor (and part of the original cause), so controlling
> > it is essential before any long-term treatment will
> > work - and there are still problems with that.

> Hmmm  ?  Arousal index still up there or?

If I accidentally sleep an hour WO the CPAP gear,
I "pay" for it for almost a week, indicating its
importance for me for preventing further problems.
I'm also finding myself with mouth-breathing and
mask leaking problems that weren't there earlier.
Since the OSA was part of what got me into trouble,
it is essential for me (at least for now) to make sure
NO more damage occurs, at least in the short term.
Also, I tend to wake up in dreams, and cannot get
beyond them, and sleep no more than about five
hours a day. Currently, I'm having trouble staying
out of seizures, though they are the minor types - but
I do NOT want to go on to GMs...!

> > Other
> > AEDs and mixes are possible (and mentioned), but
> > I don't want to go there just yet (based on problems
> > I've read about in this NG...;-),

> You'll probably want to get the CPAP working better for you before changing
> anything else?  or could it be the other way around?

Both at once - both contribute to stabilization, but
in independent ways. The CPAP prevents further
damage; the medication and attendant efforts
(hopefully...) prevent the seizures...

> > and Topamax was
> > a disaster for me (though it also stopped the
> > "jitters & jerks").

> One for you to stay away from.

Never again for it! Though most do well on it.

> I really like what I see in that your "Dr. Welby" explains what's going on with
> the drugs and answers your questions. What a change! :-)
>
> Bob

Beyond that, he does not waste my time stringing
me on, pretending he is treating me. All of this was
the result of a bad bit of luck with several occurrences
with many people involved (who did not communicate)
and some misunderstandings - but nine months of
problems, some further damage, and wasted time in
treatment was the unfortunate result.
--DR
Bob - 04 Jul 2004 22:07 GMT
> <snip>
>
> Both at once - both contribute to stabilization, but
> in independent ways. The CPAP prevents further
> damage; the medication and attendant efforts
> (hopefully...) prevent the seizures...

Guess you're in a wait & see mode for a while. Good luck!

Bob
turbinado - 05 Jul 2004 02:24 GMT
(snip)
> Also, I tend to wake up in dreams, and cannot get
> beyond them (...)

What do you mean by this?

I hope you can get stabilized soon!
David Ruether - 05 Jul 2004 03:30 GMT
> (snip)
> > Also, I tend to wake up in dreams, and cannot get
> > beyond them (...)

> What do you mean by this?

Part of what caused my problems appears to have been
severe sleep apnea (down to 62% blood oxygen saturation
levels in 1.5 hours, with trend downward [90% is about
as far down as you can go by holding your breath]), with
about 60 wakenings/hour to breathe - which prevent REM
(dream) and late-stage sleeping, necessary things. Currently,
I dream, but stop there (often about 4.5 hours in, the end
of sleep for the day). Sleep problems persist, it appears.

> I hope you can get stabilized soon!

Thanks! So do I!. Some of today, I have been through
several minor seizures per hour - can't depend on
staying "with it" very long at all...

--DR
 
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