Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Epilepsy / May 2004
Would like advice please
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Daz_n_Pat - 29 Apr 2004 00:50 GMT Hi there,
I know it is Darryl who normally posts here, but I need a little bit of help if it is possible.
A couple of weeks back Darryl and I went to visit the neuro. He has now put him on MORE medication in which I expressed strong reservations about. Darryl is taking (now) Epilim 2000 mg, Tegretol 1600 mg, Clobazam 40 mg and Neurontin (Gabapentin) 1800 mg. He has just been put onto the Neurontin as it is a new drug here in New Zealand, but my point to the neuro was that with all the other medication that he is on, he is sleeping all the time and his memory is getting really bad. Just in the last week of Darryl taking the Neurontin his memory is so much worse, for example I had to tell him the other day 7 times within 10 minutes, what colours we were going to paint the bedroom walls. I don't know if I will be classed as not being understanding enough, but I lost my temper the last time he asked me.
The Neuro's reason was to give it a try for 3 mths and see what happens. Unfortunately we are unable to see another neuro (unless we want to wait a minimum of 4 mths). I am really not happy with effects it is having on him. Sometimes he says he feels like he is drunk, most of the time can't remember anything, is always asleep etc. I do understand these are the side effects of the drugs and in no way want to sound like the nagging wife, but I am very concerned about him. In anyone's book 18 tablets a day can not be good.
I don't know if I am asking for suggestions or what, but would like your input please.
Cheers
Patsy
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------------------------------------------- To email, change daryl to darryl in address. -------------------------------------------
Bob - 29 Apr 2004 01:09 GMT > Hi there, > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I don't know if I am asking for suggestions or what, but would like your > input please. Hi Patsy
My own situation is a lot different than Darryl's, so I can't contribute a whole lot. What did have me wondering was why the Neuro was starting him out on 1800mg Neurontin. That's what I take and it is a fairly high dose that was built up to over a lengthy period of time. If the Neuro wanted to "give it a try for 3 mths and see what happens", then I wonder why he didn't start at a lower dose. It could always be increased if it was helping, but a little more was needed.
I have some of those similar memory problems, but I don't know if it is caused by my temporal lobes or by the drugs.
Bob
Daz_n_Pat - 29 Apr 2004 01:21 GMT > > Hi there, > > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Bob Hi Bob,
The way the neuro got Darryl to build up to taking that much is by: 1 capsule at night for 3 days 1 capsule morning and night for 3 days 1 capsule morning, noon and night for 3 days 2 capsules morning, noon and night from then on.
Each capsule is 300 mg. Darryl has just started on taking the last step today. I don't know if I am worrying too much, but I just feel it isn't right the amount (total medication) he is taking.
Regards Patsy
Bob - 29 Apr 2004 01:47 GMT > > > Hi there, > > > [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > Regards > Patsy I went up over periods of months rather than days. :-) That last step seems to be a very sudden jump in dose (doubling). But what I had been wondering was why not something like 300mg morning, noon & night for a total of 900mg/day instead of 1800?
Bob
Daz_n_Pat - 29 Apr 2004 02:18 GMT > > > > Hi there, > > > > [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > > Bob Hi Bob,
I am not sure why it doubled. We are at the moment following the instructions on the box of medication. Do you know what the maximum dose is?? I know Darryl is on, if not close to the maximum for Epilim and Tegretol per day...maybe he is just trying to keep with the trend he started. Is it common or known for that matter that someone with Ep to be on so much medication??
Patsy
gaross - 29 Apr 2004 02:34 GMT > > > > > Hi there, > > > > > I know it is Darryl who normally posts here, but I need a little bit of help if it is possible.
> > > > > A couple of weeks back Darryl and I went to visit the neuro. He has now put
> > > > > him on MORE medication in which I expressed strong reservations about.
> > > > > Darryl is taking (now) Epilim 2000 mg, Tegretol 1600 mg, Clobazam 40 mg and
> > > > > Neurontin (Gabapentin) 1800 mg. He has just been put onto the Neurontin as
> > > > > it is a new drug here in New Zealand, but my point to the neuro was that
> > > > > with all the other medication that he is on, he is sleeping all the time and
> > > > > his memory is getting really bad. Just in the last week of Darryl taking the
> > > > > Neurontin his memory is so much worse, for example I had to tell him the
> > > > > other day 7 times within 10 minutes, what colours we were going to paint the
> > > > > bedroom walls. I don't know if I will be classed as not being understanding
> > > > > enough, but I lost my temper the last time he asked me. > > > > > > > > > > The Neuro's reason was to give it a try for 3 mths and see what happens.
> > > > > Unfortunately we are unable to see another neuro (unless we want to wait a
> > > > > minimum of 4 mths). I am really not happy with effects it is having on him.
> > > > > Sometimes he says he feels like he is drunk, most of the time can't remember
> > > > > anything, is always asleep etc. I do understand these are the side effects
> > > > > of the drugs and in no way want to sound like the nagging wife, but I am
> > > > > very concerned about him. In anyone's book 18 tablets a day can not be good.
> > > > > I don't know if I am asking for suggestions or what, but would like your
> > > > > input please. > > > > > > > > Hi Patsy > > > > > > > > My own situation is a lot different than Darryl's, so I can't contribute a whole
> > > > lot. What did have me wondering was why the Neuro was starting him out on 1800mg
> > > > Neurontin. That's what I take and it is a fairly high dose that was > built [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > > > I went up over periods of months rather than days. :-) That last step seems
> > to be a very sudden jump in dose (doubling). But what I had been wondering was
> > why not something like 300mg morning, noon & night for a total of 900mg/day
> > instead of 1800? > > Bob [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Patsy ****** I'm not licenced to do this either, but I wondered (that's where the Dr. or even the Pharmacist? might know better about any Synergy or Amplifying effects that might result from Mixing the Drug Combo you described earlier. While we get X result from this much Tegretol, and X x 3 by combining it with a certain amount of Frisium (Clobazam), we Then are adding 2 More medications (I've never used), and *I* don't know how they all interact. IF he's already Sleeping a lot and feeling Drugged up or Drunk, at least One of the Meds. is too high as a result of the Cocktail... Too high a Tegretol Dose can produce a Drunken Sensation as one of it's side effects. (That should be listed on the efa.org medications glossary I mentioned on an Earlier post.) But again, I'm still not knowledgeable about how that Then is affects with Frisium And the other 2 tablets. And I guess you already know, but That duration of Referral and Waiting time **Sucks. !! :-< What do they do with Heart Attacks? Hand out a Number? (That was supposed to be sarcastic, but only a Little.) //G.
Bob - 29 Apr 2004 02:53 GMT > > > > > Hi there, > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 109 lines] > I am not sure why it doubled. We are at the moment following the > instructions on the box of medication. Those are your doctor's instructions that the druggist put on the box when he filled the prescription..
> Do you know what the maximum dose > is?? That 1800mg/day appears to be the effective maximum from everything I know. Read the paragraph on it at: http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/gabapent_ids.htm for comments on higher doseages.
> I know Darryl is on, if not close to the maximum for Epilim and > Tegretol per day...maybe he is just trying to keep with the trend he > started. Is it common or known for that matter that someone with Ep to be on > so much medication?? It's pretty much a matter of whatever it takes to get the job done from what I've seen. Usually there is a more gradual process of increasing the dose as it's best to use the minimum amount that will control the seizures.
Bob
gaross - 29 Apr 2004 02:22 GMT > Hi there, > I know it is Darryl who normally posts here, but I need a little bit of help [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Darryl is taking (now) Epilim 2000 mg, Tegretol 1600 mg, Clobazam 40 mg and > Neurontin (Gabapentin) 1800 mg. **G* I was only ever at 400mg Tegretol CR Morning and Night(each), before we removed night dose (for Temporal Lobe seizures), and replaced the Night dose with 10mg Clobazam and later added Same to AM dose with the Tegretol.
Without my being able to diagnose the details., The Tegretol Dose is 'massive' to start with, Before adding any effects from the Epilim then the Neurontin. ( I have no experience with either of those.)
Is your Pharmacy near to you? Perhaps the Pharmacist could get you some Printouts on each of the pills and what the various therapeutic levels might be. If you are anywhere near a City that might have an Epilepsy Association, they might be able to also refer you to a Doctor or ?? who could give you an **opinion on those doses, based on Verbal information, his Weight and Age. (You don't normally have to ba a Member to get a Comment or Referral from them.)
I think there's also an area under the Ep. Foundation of America Website, where you can Key in the Medication name and get a One Page printable summary you can file or print for yourself. The names you've listed Above and Below are the same as ones we use in N.America.
Try http://efa.org then within the Doorway there's a Medications Tab? the Med. name (not dose) is keyed in at the Top? then Click on Enter or Submit (whatever's there). You can print the page that's called up then either return to the Header page or click back, to get to where you'd add a second med. name. It should find the Tegretol, if it Can't key in Carbamazepine. (There will likely be pages for the Generic, CR or XR versions. The CR is a Solid Tablet, while the XR is a Hollow Plastic tube? with powder inside. Otherwise most of the information should be similar. See also comments it makes about Grapefruit Juice and Alcohol causing problems with Tegretol. That should be in there somewhere too.)
I didn't notice any particular effects when we added the Frisium (Clobazam) at Night, and later w. the AM Tegretol, but the Tegretol by itself is a **Large Dose (Double what I was at after about *8 weeks of slow increase), Before we cut mine to 400 and added the Frisium(Clobazam). He's **also taking Double the dose of that as I am. I don't know about the other Tablets, but if he has a Dentist, he should tell him about the Tegretol (likely all of them). When my Dentist found out about my Tegretol, he changed my Recall rate from each *6 months to each *4. Supposedly it can attack Calcium in Some people, and that shows up first in effect on Teeth before it shows up in any Bone Damage. I haven't had any Problems with My doses of Tegretol and Frisium and have used the Former since 1994, and Both since Late 1995 or early 1996. Last szr. *I* had for Right Temporal Lobe damage was June 1998. // G.
He has just been put onto the Neurontin as
> it is a new drug here in New Zealand, but my point to the neuro was that > with all the other medication that he is on, he is sleeping all the time and [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > To email, change daryl to darryl in address. > ------------------------------------------- CyberCafe - 29 Apr 2004 03:17 GMT > Hi there, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > bedroom walls. I don't know if I will be classed as not being understanding > enough, but I lost my temper the last time he asked me. It's hard to know if this memory problem thing is going to abate or not or what the cause of it is. I'm not going to comment on the meds because I'm not qualified. If the medication is causing the problem, they can change that. If it is due to seizure activity or even the period around seizures, nothing will work except getting the seizures under control and even that might not help a whole lot in some people.
You might have to find other ways to give him clues, or actually he has to find ways to give himself clues. For example, you could hang a sample of the paint color on the wall or write it down where he is sure to be able to find it. My daughter is a speech therapist/pathologist and part of her training included helping people with memory problems. She worked with so I could memorize some family phone numbers. In fact, those are the only phone numbers I can remember. Maybe there is someone in your region with similar training who can help your hubby.
My memory has been tested a couple of times, which has been helpful in determining how I can help myself, but I already knew it was easier to remember/recall visual things compared to say, sound. In other words, if someone told me something, it was like they never told me. It's going to take a lot of work and a lot of time to discover how to get around this memory/recall problem. A couple of other things that seem to help include doing it yourself (I'm referring to the person with the memory problem) because you use so many sensory inputs when you do it yourself. The other thing that seems to help is consistency. I feel like I'm turning into a fuddy duddy old lady, but it really helps if I have certain places to put things, certain ways to do things, and so on.
I'm not saying the above suggestion will solve the problem. The two major things that helped me with my pitiful memory/recall was going to a class that provided a lot of different learning tools (my doctor said "use it or lose it") and starting on antidepressants. The anti-depressants were interesting because I hadn't realized how poor my focus, concentration, had been. If you can't pay attention, it doesn't sink in.
Now, everything I've talked about is assuming a person has control of their seizures because trying to remember stuff that happens around or during a seizure is almost impossible (I have complex partials).
If your husband's memory is that bad, you should know that it can be dangerous for him to do certain things like cooking on a range top. I've found that I can't leave the room without setting a timer or some other reminder if I'm cooking, running water, etc., because I will forget until I smell burned food or hear water running onto the floor.
One interesting story, many years ago I remember my brother-in-law being brought into my mom's house by a nurse who was really irritated that my brother-in-law couldn't remember where he lived (he did remember his phone number, but his wife was at my mom's house). He had had a seizure at work and was taken to the hospital and was there for several hours. He could remember my mom's address though, so the nurse drove him to my mom's. That nurse had a hold of my brother-in-law's elbow (like that was going to keep him from falling, right). My poor brother-in-law looked absolutely worn out and I think he must have been uncomfortable from that nurse's fingers in his elbow. I don't understand why his employer didn't give the ambulance crew information on his home address. Back then I didn't know I had epilepsy myself, but the incident scared the heck out of me and still does.
Barb
> The Neuro's reason was to give it a try for 3 mths and see what happens. > Unfortunately we are unable to see another neuro (unless we want to wait a [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > To email, change daryl to darryl in address. > ------------------------------------------- David Ruether - 29 Apr 2004 14:01 GMT > Hi there, > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Patsy Thanks for posting this. Darryl has been of help to me and to others - and all here would be happy to help, if possible. It must take GREAT patience to put up with Darryl's problems (I think my partner is an angel, and he has to put up with FAR less than it appears you do...;-), and losing your temper once in a while may be a necessary "venting" for you. Do not feel guilty about it - but, of course, try to find other outlets, if possible (sorry, I'm full of "platitudes"...;-), and some way afterward to reassure Darryl that your reaction was toward an annoyance resulting from the condition, and not toward Darryl himself. Good luck with all this, and we appreciate your caring enough to ask for advice. -- DR
Daz_n_Pat - 01 May 2004 23:11 GMT Hi there,
Thankyou for your advice. Just to let you I did call the chemist the other day to see if he could help because Darryl was having a pretty bad time of it and I was beginning to get worried. He couldn't hold his balance and was falling everywhere and he said he felt like he was spinning not to mention fighting really hard to keep him eyes open...all he wanted to do was sleep. The chemist agreed with me that he was on way to much medication and that the Gabapentin was built up to quickly, but I would have to give the neuro a call or speak with his nurse for more help.
I finally got hold of the neuro and he was very sarcastic in his response to me...Anyway that's beside the point, we managed to get through that and he suggested Darryl drop his Tegretol from 1600 mg per day to 1200 mg per day and the Gabapentin to drop to 1500 mg per day but over the next two weeks he is to build back up to 1800 mg per day.
One thing the neuro did say to me and I was wondering if any of you who have taken Gabapentin in the past/present could help me and that is 1800 mg of Gabapentin per day is the minimum to control Sz's?
I know I sound like a worrying wife, but I am concerned about Darryl. He is my whole world and it really upsets me knowing I can not do a damn thing to help him get rid of his Sz's.
Thanks again for your help
Patsy
gaross - 01 May 2004 23:53 GMT I don't have experience with Gabapentin. His Dr. sounds like a 'winner'!
:-< Since he likely didn't tell him? I inserted at **'s below how *I was reduced from 2x400mg Tegretol CR Night Time dose to one dose of 400mg (2x200mg Tablets) Each Morning, at **s below.
Apparently too rapid a withdrawal can risk Recoil seizures (my word) from too prompt a withdrawal of the med. G./
> Hi there, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > and the Gabapentin to drop to 1500 mg per day but over the next two weeks he > is to build back up to 1800 mg per day. ***G** When we removed my Night dose (my case) the Tegretol was reduced like this. (My tablets are Solid with a slot in the centre so they can be Snapped in 2 to make 100mg. I went *1 week *Alternate nights of 2 tablets (my original Max dose at night), and 1.5 tablets, then One week at 1.5 tablets, then week *3 at 1.5 tablets alternate nights with 1 tablet (200mg). Week 4 One tablet each night (I was still taking full dose each morning). (At that point we did Bloodwork in my case-- I don't know what they were checking for, I didn't get a call about any problems from the Doctor, at that point. We started another med. -- Frisium (Clobazam) at low dose at week 5 as rest here continued.) Week 5 alternate nights Full tablet (200mg) and Half a Tablet (100mg), Week 6 each night Half a tablet, Week 7 Alternate nights half a tablet and none (except I was taking the Frisium here from above). Week 8 no Tegretol at Night, then Bloodwork at end of that period.
Since he's at a Higher total dose, I expect he could do something like that from the 1600mg point to the 1200mg. I'd have been more comfortable if his Dr. had spelled that out for him. Prompt dropping of the Tegretol dose without supervision *might produce side effects I mentioned above, although I didn't have any at rate I listed above.
I don't know if there's any problems with reducing the Gabapentin then re-upping it. I thought that's what we paid Doctors for... I expect that might be to help more quickly get rid of some of the 'drunken' feeling, and then keep him Seizure Free by increasing that dose as the Tegretol is reduced. Hopefully we have someone else around who can give an 'amateur opinion' or experiences with the gaba-- as I've not used that. If you didn't get a writeup on either from the Pharmacy when the prescriptions were filled, there's a Medications Glossary that you could *look at under http://efa.org . One you get to the Medications part, you key in the Med. name and click Enter? or Go? whatever is there (it's obvious behind the data entry box. That will give a One page Printable summary on the Medication and any side effects etc. to watch for. It's handy to have anyway so long as he's using any medications. Remember you and I aren't Doctors, but there might be something there that would mention if there's any problems with altering *that one (gabapentin) more quickly or not.
And I might have posted earlier too, if there are any questions, *sometimes the Pharmacist can pull up some of the Scripts for you, or Possibly give you a www address for the Manufacturers of the Pills, which could be of some help. ********* Keep us Posted how he's doing. I know one of the signs that Tegretol might be too high is a 'drunken/ disoriented' feeling, but I don't know if any of those symptoms might be from the Synergy between the *2 pills interacting.
What the Dr. *might have meant (your paragraph below), is that for His type of szrs. that the dose you mention below is the Minimum that will give him optimum control. I hope it all goes well. If he gets to a level where he's not as tired or affected by side effects, but Still has control, that can be SO Neat !! And you ARE already doing lots to help him get rid of his seizures. Quit beating yourself Up!! :-< G.R./
> One thing the neuro did say to me and I was wondering if any of you who have > taken Gabapentin in the past/present could help me and that is 1800 mg of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks again for your help > Patsy Bob - 02 May 2004 01:06 GMT Hi Patsy
> The chemist agreed with me that he was on way to much medication and that > the Gabapentin was built up to quickly, but I would have to give the neuro a > call or speak with his nurse for more help. > > I finally got hold of the neuro and he was very sarcastic in his response to > me... I don't know what sort of options you have when dealing with your national? health service there in NZ, but if you have the choice of switching to a different neurologist I would certainly do so. There might also be the option of getting a "second opinion" where another neurologist would examine him and his medications and render his advice.
> Anyway that's beside the point, we managed to get through that and he > suggested Darryl drop his Tegretol from 1600 mg per day to 1200 mg per day [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > taken Gabapentin in the past/present could help me and that is 1800 mg of > Gabapentin per day is the minimum to control Sz's? I currently take 1800 mg/day along with my other med, but I was built up to this level as we tested smaller amounts over a long period of time for their effectiveness. The neurologists where I live would have left me at a lower level (900, 1200?) if that was doing the job so there was no push to get to 1800. Each time we found that the seizures weren't being controlled, we upped the amount a little in hopes that a little more might do the job. That's how I wound up at 1800mg and it certainly is not a minumum as your question appears to be asking.
Please understand that I am neither a doctor nor a chemist, but the information on that website is hopefully uptodate. It says:
Patients >12 years of age: The effective dose of Neurontin® is 900 to 1800 mg/day and given in divided doses (three times a day) using 300 or 400 mg capsules, or 600 or 800 mg tablets. The starting dose is 300 mg three times a day. If necessary, the dose may be increased using 300 or 400 mg capsules, or 600 or 800 mg tablets three times a day up to 1800 mg/day. Dosages up to 2400 mg/day have been well tolerated in long-term clinical studies. Doses of 3600 mg/day have also been administered to a small number of patients for a relatively short duration, and have been well tolerated. The maximum time between doses in the TID schedule should not exceed 12 hours.
So they are saying that anything between 900 & 1800mg/day can be used for treatment. They say that larger amounts (2400-3600) have been used on a test basis, but a normal dose would be between 900 & 1800.
> I know I sound like a worrying wife, but I am concerned about Darryl. He is > my whole world and it really upsets me knowing I can not do a damn thing to > help him get rid of his Sz's. You sound like a wonderful wife! :-) My wife is also very concerned for me & my health problems, so I guess that Darryl & I both have something to feel good about. :-)
Bob
gaross - 02 May 2004 03:42 GMT You might have not seen an earlier post I did about a week ago. Tegretol should not be used with Grapefruit Juice. All the other juices seem to be O.K., but one of the acids in Grapefruit can interfere with the Tegretol working. In case he happened to be using that from time to time, it might produce side effects he might blame on the medication when it's the juice that's at fault. (I use an Apple/Peach or Apple/Apricot blend I can get in Canada.)
(Also Alcohol has a non-linear footprint with Tegretol, where 1 drink can seem like 1, 2 like e.g.2.8, 3 like 4.2, etc. I don't use any alcohol since I've been using Tegretol.) I mostly wanted to mention the Grapefruit thing. I think that's included in the http://efa.org Medications page for Tegretol (Carbamazepine). /G.
> Hi there, > Thankyou for your advice. Just to let you I did call the chemist the other [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks again for your help > Patsy
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