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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Epilepsy / April 2004

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"Episodes" Types I've Had - What Are They? (VERY LONG)

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David Ruether - 13 Apr 2004 15:58 GMT
"Episodes" Types I've Had - What Are They?            4-13-04

It is with a bit of desperation that I post the following here! ;-)
During the last six months I've had various types of "episodes",
often many times a day. I will try to describe each separately
to see if people here have any ideas about what they are (I've
described them briefly as a group here before, but with little
response...). Common to all: I remain conscious; there is nothing
showing on a short EEG, a partial EEG taken as part of a sleep
study for Obstructive Sleep Apnea, or the same with 13 added
electrodes; these do not happen during sleep (as far as I know,
except for PLMS); they happen randomly, when alone or with
people, and when doing little or when busy, with few triggers
identifiable; I have not experienced depression except while on
Topamax and for a few isolated days in the last six weeks or
so; brain MRIs have been declared "essentially normal" by two
neurologists, but "showing several structural irregularities" by
another; all occurrences are essentially episodic (I have "normal"
periods). I have extensively searched on google, and I have
some ideas for some of what may be going on, but I would like
other opinions...

Type 1, "limps"--
This one is often preceeded by a visual image of a 1/2 second
closing of an "iris" (like in a lens) that closes out vision. It is roughly
egg-shaped (small end up) and at first it appeared with a bright
yellow "saw-tooth" edge against a dark background. Lately,
it appears darker-edged, against a medium brown background.
I think it is right-side only, but I'm not sure. I may see this several
times before the event, over maybe an hour's time, or I may only
see it just as the event begins to happen (not always, though).
Vision is normal immediately afterwards. The event that follows is
a loss of muscle-strength over many seconds that causes drooping
and an inability to move. This lasts for a few seconds (essentially
not happening) to several hours, with 10-minutes to an hour+
being the most common. I've had as many as 6-8+ of these a
day, though generally I have only 1-2 per day now. I am aware
of my surroundings (though my eyes are generally mostly closed),
but time passing is unimportant (even if many hours). At first,
surprise could put me into this, but lately petting a cat or eating
are the most likely identifiable things that often do it - but the
majority of these events appear randomly. I sometimes stop
breathing or breath very shallowly during these, though they begin
with slightly heavier than normal breathing for a few seconds.
Before six months ago this type of experience was rare for me,
but it did happen a few times during moments of VERY high stress.

Type 2, "confusion"--
This one resembles one I had from a few years old into my 20's.
These started again recently (about two months ago?). I get
"caught" visually by nothing in particular and I stop moving. Unlike
with "the limps", I feel that I can move, but I don't (though I may
occasionally take a small step backwards, if standing). It is hard
to move my center of vision very far, and all things visual appear
to be there and in normal proportion, but "smashed" up close to
me, and it is hard to make sense of what I see. I feel as if dizzy,
but I'm not dizzy. I often feel moderate pressure in the area of
my eyes, upper nose, and lower forehead. I also feel unusually
aware of the sound field all around me. These now happen 1-3
times a day, last 3-7 minutes or so and then go, and they sometimes
leave me feeling "unsettled" and sometimes jittering for many hours
afterward.

Type 3, "jitters"--
This one can last for many hours, and appear many days in a row,
then go away for many days. The jittering may be slight (almost
"internal" only), or quite pronounced. Sometimes it is combined
with hyperactivity (rare, except for about three weeks when
coming off Topamax), and it can start on its own, sometimes follow
moderate upset, or it can follow "confusion". Speech is often
somewhat affected.

Type 4, "jerks"--
This one can range from a slight single jerk through moderate
jerks, to very large, overall jerks (with single or with rapid
repetition of the jerks). These can occur in my arms (both or
one, more often the left), or my legs, or body only, or left side
only, or everything at once (symmetrically). I often stop breathing
during these episodes if the jerking is large and repeating. If the
jerks are isolated, the episodes can last a long time, but if they
are intense and repeating rapidly, the episodes are short (generally
less than a minute). I've had very occasional episodes of jerking
over the last 30 years (since about age 30), but now these are
much more common. These, like "jittering", will be around for a
few days (with sometimes several episodes a day), then go away
for a few days, or longer (and they appeared to go away completely
during the three weeks I was on low-dose Topamax). I also have
RLS and PLMS.

Type 5, "muscle-control problems"--
I sometimes find it difficult to control muscles well while doing
simple things like standing, using an exercise machine (Gazelle),
eating, preparing food, shopping, etc. This affects mostly arms,
hands, and legs (though I can walk), though this can also affect
my body (and I sometimes feel the need to intentionally straighten
myself while walking, standing, or sitting). When experiencing this,
it is difficult to pick up or move something with one "clean"
movement, and I tend to repeat movements a few times (with
"jabs" or "wide-approaches") to finish what I am trying to do.
Other body parts sometimes move to "assist" intended movements.
This diminished rapidly while on Topamax, and I experienced little
of this for a while afterwards, but a bit of it has recently returned
(it is relatively rare and slight, though, compared with three months
ago).

Type 6, "speech problems"--
Before six months ago, I had no speech problems at all (though
I would sometimes vocalize during a fever). About six months
ago, I began having some slurring and stuttering ("s", "f", "h", and
"c" sounds at the beginnings of words were particularly difficult),
with common repetition of words to finish a phrase. On Topamax
my speech problems became MUCH more serious (with frequent
babbling of nonsense words, blurting out of nonsense words when
quick responses were intended, having sentences interrupted by
jumbled blurted words, and having great trouble at times beginning
sentences and with pronouncing even very common and simple
words). Since going off Topamax most of these problems have
diminished, but most have remained. The random babbling and
blurting has finally mostly gone away (though I still may babble
nonsense almost continually while showering, especially when
using a brush, or during teeth-brushing), but there are still daily
problems with "clean" speech much of the time, and there is often
an hour or two during which it is extremely difficult to talk at all.
During these I cannot figure out how to say words I know,
especially the first word in a sentence (I know the word, but I can't
figure out how to form it - but I sometimes manage to try various
approaches and forms until I get it out). This has been the most
troublesome and annoying aspect of all. (Possibly irrelevant, but
from what I can gather I was born left-handed but forced to be
right-handed very early - and I'm now left-eyed, ambidextrous
with eating, and mostly right-handed with most other things.)

Yuh, I know, "nuttier than a fruit cake"...;-) Heck, sometimes
even I think that - until I'm in my next "episode" and it then seems
all too real, absurd as it is. Suggestions are welcome, and if in
email only, please alter the obvious in the address before sending.
Thanks.
Signature

DR

Julie - 13 Apr 2004 17:45 GMT
So what do the doctors say?  Did they put you on medication?

> "Episodes" Types I've Had - What Are They?            4-13-04
>
[quoted text clipped - 135 lines]
> --
>  DR
David Ruether - 14 Apr 2004 13:19 GMT
See the Topamax thread, just above this one, for more
on medication - and I've been on nothing else. As for the
other, I want to avoid prejudicing the responses by telling
what I or various neurologists think about all this...
Thanks.
-
DR

> So what do the doctors say?  Did they put you on medication?

> > "Episodes" Types I've Had - What Are They?            4-13-04
[....]
CyberCafe - 13 Apr 2004 19:29 GMT
> "Episodes" Types I've Had - What Are They?            4-13-04
>
[quoted text clipped - 135 lines]
> --
>  DR

Restless Legs Syndrome = RLS, right?
Periodic Limb Movement During Sleep = PLMS, right?

I did a search on google to get some information on RLS and PLMS.  There is
quite a bit of general  information and information regarding possible
connections/similiarities with certain disorders (particularly movement
disorders).  Even before doing that research, I thought there was nothing
familiar to me (I have had simple partial seizures and complex partial
seizures), but that only leaves 20 plus other seizure disorders.

In my mind, it's also the things you didn't mention that don't seem to fit a
seizure disorder.  These would be the symptoms that are pretty common in many
seizure types.  For example, you didn't say anything about a 'funny' feeling,
the need to sleep afterwards, brain fog, and things like that.  Yeah, I know
not everyone has the same symptoms even when they have the same seizure
disorder.  I can only base this on my own experiences and what I've witnessed
in others or learned from others (which includes this newsgroup, medial and
research articles, and materials from the epilepsy center at our clinic).  .

Good luck with your search!

Barb
David Ruether - 14 Apr 2004 13:40 GMT
> > "Episodes" Types I've Had - What Are They?            4-13-04
[....]

> Restless Legs Syndrome = RLS, right?
> Periodic Limb Movement During Sleep = PLMS, right?

Yes.

> I did a search on google to get some information on RLS and PLMS.  There is
> quite a bit of general  information and information regarding possible
> connections/similiarities with certain disorders (particularly movement
> disorders).  Even before doing that research, I thought there was nothing
> familiar to me (I have had simple partial seizures and complex partial
> seizures), but that only leaves 20 plus other seizure disorders.

If you would, please send me URLs for what you have
found (to rpn1@cornell.edu, not the auto-respond address).

> In my mind, it's also the things you didn't mention that don't seem to fit a
> seizure disorder.  These would be the symptoms that are pretty common in many
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> in others or learned from others (which includes this newsgroup, medial and
> research articles, and materials from the epilepsy center at our clinic).  .

In past written descriptions, I've been accused of being "too
wordy", so I cut things back (and video I have of some of the
episodes got "action" from neurologists who looked at it, when
written descriptions that were as complete as I could make them
got nowhere). Things have also changed with time, modifying both
what happens with an episode, and what is more prominent at
any given time. A sleep disorder and its treatment also complicates
what happens. I have Obstructive Sleep Apnea, discovered
three months ago. Before, when I slept easily and for long hours,
I was both oxygen-starved much of the time (blood saturation
down to 62% in a short test), and never reaching late-stage sleep
modes (I awoke almost 40 times per hour to restore breathing,
though I didn't realize it). Back then, I would often sleep after
"episodes", but now I sleep little at all (about 4.5-5 hours/day
total most days - though it is "good" sleep...), so I tend not to
sleep now after them. I do feel "funny" during the "confusion" type
(and have problems afterwards), "dull" during the "limps" and
just after (I used to almost always sleep after these, but almost
never during them), and can feel the "jerks" coming on. The
"edgy" feeling of RLS is hard to miss, and can be "all over", not
just legs. The speech problems appear with other things, or
by themselves, and continue long periods even when other
things have ended. The inconstancy and complication of all this
makes it hard to thoroughly and accurately cover everything
for all instances in the descriptions, unfortunately.

> Good luck with your search!
> Barb

Thanks!
--
DR
Mary Fisher - 14 Apr 2004 15:05 GMT
.

> In past written descriptions, I've been accused of being "too
> wordy",

If the words are good there can't be too many of them. It's when they're not
well thought through or cared about that they're not worth reading. I always
read your posts even though I can't help.

Mary
David Ruether - 14 Apr 2004 15:41 GMT
[...]
> > In past written descriptions, I've been accused of being "too
> > wordy",
[...]

> If the words are good there can't be too many of them. It's when they're not
> well thought through or cared about that they're not worth reading. I always
> read your posts even though I can't help.
>
> Mary

Thanks for the comments.
--
DR
turbinado - 13 Apr 2004 20:59 GMT
I can identify with two of the types, see below.

> Type 2, "confusion"--
> This one resembles one I had from a few years old into my 20's.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> leave me feeling "unsettled" and sometimes jittering for many hours
> afterward.

I know what you mean about getting "caught" by something visual, usually
something very commonplace. It's like my brain is trapped by the sight of
... whatever it is at the time. Could be anything from turning a page to
seeing a cup on the table. I stop whatever I am doing to stare at it and
have to tear myself away. Afterwards I feel disoriented and unsettled. These
happen much more often on days when I have complex partials.

> Type 6, "speech problems"--
> Before six months ago, I had no speech problems at all (though
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> approaches and forms until I get it out). This has been the most
> troublesome and annoying aspect of all.

My speech problems started when I was on Topamax, and though they have
diminished since I switched to Tegretol I still have alot of trouble
thinking of words that I know. Sometimes I know the word but am unable to
make myself say it. At one point, when I was on the highest dose of Topamax,
it got so bad that English seemed like a second language. There are also
many words that I *used* to know the meaning of, but now have to look up -
but I guess that's more due to my lousy memory.
David Ruether - 14 Apr 2004 13:51 GMT
> I can identify with two of the types, see below.

[...]
> > Type 2, "confusion"--
> > This one resembles one I had from a few years old into my 20's.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> > leave me feeling "unsettled" and sometimes jittering for many hours
> > afterward.

> I know what you mean about getting "caught" by something visual, usually
> something very commonplace. It's like my brain is trapped by the sight of
> ... whatever it is at the time. Could be anything from turning a page to
> seeing a cup on the table. I stop whatever I am doing to stare at it and
> have to tear myself away. Afterwards I feel disoriented and unsettled. These
> happen much more often on days when I have complex partials.

When I was a kid, these generally were specific things
that I saw that "caught" me - but now, it may be as unimportant
as the space on a table to the left of a pepper shaker, the edge
of the magazine rack, or the space on the wall between two
paintings. In other words, the visual specifics at the time are
meaningless - the "episode" just happens. If I try to end the
episode early (with "limps", too), I often then have "jittering" or
"jerking" afterward.

> > Type 6, "speech problems"--
> > Before six months ago, I had no speech problems at all (though
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> > approaches and forms until I get it out). This has been the most
> > troublesome and annoying aspect of all.

> My speech problems started when I was on Topamax, and though they have
> diminished since I switched to Tegretol I still have alot of trouble
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> many words that I *used* to know the meaning of, but now have to look up -
> but I guess that's more due to my lousy memory.

Yes. See the "Topamax" thread, just above this one. Topamax
was a disaster for me since on a brief low dose I developed
MUCH worse problems, and now off it two and a half months,
I STILL have bad speech problems! These were not present
before at anything like the current level!
Thanks for the comments.
--
DR
Bob - 13 Apr 2004 20:59 GMT
> "Episodes" Types I've Had - What Are They?            4-13-04
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> described them briefly as a group here before, but with little
> response...).

It's not totally clear as to what you're looking for.  Labels?  i.e. are you
looking for a name for them?

Within the context that "everyone is different", I see them all as being
seizure (neurological) activity of one type or another.  They would all appear
to be Simple as the word Complex does not apply if your state of Consciousness
is not being effected. Your Type 1, "limps" is having an effect on the Motor
centers as in a secondarily Generalized seizure, but is not Fully Generalized
and is not causing a Tonic-Clonic effect.  It's duration is similar to some of
my Complex Partials except I don't remember mine and you remember yours. That a
difference between Simple & Complex - not out like a light.<g>

> Common to all: I remain conscious;

Be careful with that word in this group<g> as there appears to be disagreement
as to what "unconscious" means.<vbg>  I know what you mean though and I take it
that you fully remember (at least you think you fully remember) the episodes.

> there is nothing
> showing on a short EEG, a partial EEG taken as part of a sleep
> study for Obstructive Sleep Apnea, or the same with 13 added
> electrodes; these do not happen during sleep (as far as I know,
> except for PLMS);

The sleep-disorder ng has a fetish for acronyms that this group knows nothing
about. Best to either avoid them here or spell them out if you refer to them.

> they happen randomly, when alone or with
> people, and when doing little or when busy, with few triggers
> identifiable; I have not experienced depression except while on
> Topamax and for a few isolated days in the last six weeks or
> so;

What is your history of drug treatment, past & current? You've only mentioned
Topamax. You also mentioned problems at a young age - how young?  Is there any
family history (parents, grandparents, aunts & uncles) of these or similar
problems?  Could it be congenital? or a forceps birth delivery causing brain
damage? or a head injury at a young age?

> brain MRIs have been declared "essentially normal"

Whatever that's supposed to mean.

> by two
> neurologists, but "showing several structural irregularities" by
> another;

What are those "structural irregularities" and where are they?  Tumor? Scar
tissue? Developmental?

> all occurrences are essentially episodic (I have "normal"
> periods).

Just like any seizure condition.

> I have extensively searched on google, and I have
> some ideas for some of what may be going on, but I would like
> other opinions...

Let's start with the above first.

Bob
David Ruether - 14 Apr 2004 14:26 GMT
> > "Episodes" Types I've Had - What Are They?            4-13-04
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > described them briefly as a group here before, but with little
> > response...).

> It's not totally clear as to what you're looking for.  Labels?  i.e. are you
> looking for a name for them?

ANYTHING!
Names would be a very helpful start, though...
The efforts with neurologists have brought more
confusion than anything else. I figured that those
"in the trenches" may have more useful info/ideas
to offer...

> Within the context that "everyone is different", I see them all as being
> seizure (neurological) activity of one type or another.  They would all appear
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> my Complex Partials except I don't remember mine and you remember yours. That a
> difference between Simple & Complex - not out like a light.<g>

Yes. Also the great length of the "limps" (sometimes many hours)
does not fit most seizure descriptions I've seen. It is interesting
to see you report having long seizures - something that does
not appear in "standard" lists except as a series of seizures
("status").

> > Common to all: I remain conscious;

> Be careful with that word in this group<g> as there appears to be disagreement
> as to what "unconscious" means.<vbg>  I know what you mean though and I take it
> that you fully remember (at least you think you fully remember) the episodes.

Yes. I take it to mean that I have not missed awareness of events, and
remember what happened to me, though I may be "dazed", "confused",
or "dull" mentally during (and after) them. I did realize that I had missed
part of a movie the other night when I did not think I had had an "episode",
but replaying it showed me that I remembered it well up to a certain point,
then had no memory of a short stretch, then picked up memory of it
from there to where we had stopped it to go back (where I realized that
the main character had lost his beard, and I could not remember how).

> > there is nothing
> > showing on a short EEG, a partial EEG taken as part of a sleep
> > study for Obstructive Sleep Apnea, or the same with 13 added
> > electrodes; these do not happen during sleep (as far as I know,
> > except for PLMS);

> The sleep-disorder ng has a fetish for acronyms that this group knows nothing
> about. Best to either avoid them here or spell them out if you refer to them.

Yes, I agree (but I get too used to them...;-). "Restless leg
syndrome", and "periodic limb movement syndrome"...;-)

> > they happen randomly, when alone or with
> > people, and when doing little or when busy, with few triggers
> > identifiable; I have not experienced depression except while on
> > Topamax and for a few isolated days in the last six weeks or
> > so;

> What is your history of drug treatment, past & current? You've only mentioned
> Topamax. You also mentioned problems at a young age - how young?  Is there any
> family history (parents, grandparents, aunts & uncles) of these or similar
> problems?  Could it be congenital? or a forceps birth delivery causing brain
> damage? or a head injury at a young age?

I've only been on Topamax, and that for only a short time
(disasterous) - see the "Topamax" thread immediately
above this one for more details. Nothing else of note in drugs.
The "glows", I used to call them ("confusion", in my description)
I remember from maybe 2-3 years old, with their stopping
sometime in my 20's. The "jerks" started around 30 years
ago, when about 30, but were minor until about six months ago
(but I think I said that...;-). The others are recent, mostly starting
about six months ago about the time of  a high fever and a
heart problem a couple of weeks later.

> > brain MRIs have been declared "essentially normal"

> Whatever that's supposed to mean.

Yes, that is a "problem", though people often manage quite
well with astonishing brain-structure irregularities.

> > by two
> > neurologists, but "showing several structural irregularities" by
> > another;

> What are those "structural irregularities" and where are they?  Tumor? Scar
> tissue? Developmental?

No tumors, possible "lesions" (one reading only, need to
clarify this...), three very enlarged vessels (attributed to high
blood pressure or migraines by most [though I have neither],
and to prenatal injury by one) - and irregular and thin
connecting area between the two hemispheres, and very large
rear sections on the "butterfly wings" for both vertical and
horizontal brain section views. The neurologist who sees
the "dark" view thinks these were all prenatal in origin,
unlikely "normally" to cause problems, but that they leave me
more susceptible to "upsets", whether from alergies, emotions,
endocrine-problems, hormones, sugar or other metabolism
problems, or whatever. The sensitivity to Topamax may be
an indicator here (I'm guessing...).

> > all occurrences are essentially episodic (I have "normal"
> > periods).

> Just like any seizure condition.

Yes...;-)
Though three neurologists have now told me that
"I do not have epilepsy", and one (a "big-whig")
has stated flatly that "I have no neurological problems".
One has the opinion covered above...

> > I have extensively searched on google, and I have
> > some ideas for some of what may be going on, but I would like
> > other opinions...

> Let's start with the above first.
>
> Bob

Thanks for the comments.
--
DR
David Ruether - 14 Apr 2004 14:45 GMT
[....]
> > Is there any
> > family history (parents, grandparents, aunts & uncles) of these or similar
> > problems?  Could it be congenital? or a forceps birth delivery causing brain
> > damage? or a head injury at a young age?
[....]

Sorry, forgot to answer these.
I have no family history (adopted, unknown origin).
I have no head external evidence of delivery problems
(though one neurologist who specializes in brain-damaged
children thinks I have pre-natally caused irregularities in
brain-structure). And I do not recall (and was never told
of) childhood head injuries (I have a very good memory
of my early childhood). I do remember mention of
"convulsions" when I was very young, but I don't remember
distinctly if these were only fever-induced, though I think
I remember being mentioned that some were anger-induced.
More info: I have always considered myself a bit of a
"Martian" in that I'm not quite "usual" in some ways...;-)
Fortunately, I've been bright enough to manage well
enough anyway, and to have avoided most common life
pitfalls...
--
DR
Bob - 14 Apr 2004 15:28 GMT
> > "Bob" <spsandlostinthe@invalid.net> wrote in message
> news:407C46D1.88277EA2@invalid.net...
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Sorry, forgot to answer these.
> I have no family history (adopted, unknown origin).

I assume that your adoptive parents are no longer living and able to answer
additional questions?

> I have no head external evidence of delivery problems
> (though one neurologist who specializes in brain-damaged
> children thinks I have pre-natally caused irregularities in
> brain-structure).

Then you have 3 neurologists in essential agreement with one of them having some
expertise in the possible cause. Has he elaborated on how these pre-natally caused
irregularities might have been caused?  Physical abuse of the pregnant birth-mother?

> And I do not recall (and was never told
> of) childhood head injuries (I have a very good memory
> of my early childhood).

The above may already be partial explanation of the origin.

> I do remember mention of
> "convulsions" when I was very young, but I don't remember
> distinctly if these were only fever-induced, though I think
> I remember being mentioned that some were anger-induced.

"convulsions" or "tantrums"?  Can they be described?  It looks like you were having
both "convulsions" and your Type 2, confusion episodes as a child. But no treatment
or drugs of any nature at that time?

> More info: I have always considered myself a bit of a
> "Martian" in that I'm not quite "usual" in some ways...;-)

Don't we all like to think of ourselves as being a little different?  :-)

> Fortunately, I've been bright enough to manage well
> enough anyway, and to have avoided most common life
> pitfalls...

Indeed!  I've been to your website. Interesting!  :-)

Bob
Mary Fisher - 14 Apr 2004 16:04 GMT
> Don't we all like to think of ourselves as being a little different?  :-)

Oh no, in my case it's everyone else who's different :-)

Mary
Bob - 14 Apr 2004 16:28 GMT
> > Don't we all like to think of ourselves as being a little different?  :-)
>
> Oh no, in my case it's everyone else who's different :-)
> >
> Mary

Just me and thee, eh? :-)

Bob
Mary Fisher - 14 Apr 2004 16:36 GMT
> > > Don't we all like to think of ourselves as being a little different?
:-)
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Just me and thee, eh? :-)

Well, OK.

But I'm so sure about thee ...

Mary

> Bob
David Ruether - 14 Apr 2004 16:29 GMT
> > > "Bob" <spsandlostinthe@invalid.net> wrote in message
> > news:407C46D1.88277EA2@invalid.net...

> > [....]
> > > > Is there any
> > > > family history (parents, grandparents, aunts & uncles) of these or similar
> > > > problems?  Could it be congenital? or a forceps birth delivery causing brain
> > > > damage? or a head injury at a young age?
> > [....]

> > Sorry, forgot to answer these.
> > I have no family history (adopted, unknown origin).

> I assume that your adoptive parents are no longer living and able to answer
> additional questions?

Yes, unfortunately...

> > I have no head external evidence of delivery problems
> > (though one neurologist who specializes in brain-damaged
> > children thinks I have pre-natally caused irregularities in
> > brain-structure).

> Then you have 3 neurologists in essential agreement with one of them having some
> expertise in the possible cause. Has he elaborated on how these pre-natally caused
> irregularities might have been caused?  Physical abuse of the pregnant birth-mother?

More likely chemical or disease...

> > And I do not recall (and was never told
> > of) childhood head injuries (I have a very good memory
> > of my early childhood).

> The above may already be partial explanation of the origin.

> > I do remember mention of
> > "convulsions" when I was very young, but I don't remember
> > distinctly if these were only fever-induced, though I think
> > I remember being mentioned that some were anger-induced.

> "convulsions" or "tantrums"?  Can they be described?  It looks like you were having
> both "convulsions" and your Type 2, confusion episodes as a child. But no treatment
> or drugs of any nature at that time?

This was in the 1940's...;-)
Sounded like "convulsions" following "tantrums", if
my memory serves well enough. I can't be sure, though...

> > More info: I have always considered myself a bit of a
> > "Martian" in that I'm not quite "usual" in some ways...;-)

> Don't we all like to think of ourselves as being a little different?  :-)

I have more to go on in that, though, than most...;-)

> > Fortunately, I've been bright enough to manage well
> > enough anyway, and to have avoided most common life
> > pitfalls...

> Indeed!  I've been to your website. Interesting!  :-)

Thanks. I've been lucky enough to live the way I want, and
to do much of what I wanted to do (I didn't mention "politics",
architecture, teaching, and some other temporary pursuits on
the web page, either - but I've had good fun, and a good life...;-).
(I'm not sure yet what I will be when I grow up! ;-)
Thanks for the comments.

> Bob

--
DR
Mary Fisher - 14 Apr 2004 15:07 GMT
"David Ruether" <rpn1@no-junk.cornell.edu> wrote in message news:6_afc.54873

> Though three neurologists have now told me that
> "I do not have epilepsy", and one (a "big-whig")
> has stated flatly that "I have no neurological problems".

LOL! I wonder what he'd think if he had your experiences!

Mary
David Ruether - 14 Apr 2004 16:00 GMT
> "David Ruether" <rpn1@no-junk.cornell.edu> wrote in message news:6_afc.54873

[...]
> > Though three neurologists have now told me that
> > "I do not have epilepsy", and one (a "big-whig")
> > has stated flatly that "I have no neurological problems".
[...]

> LOL! I wonder what he'd think if he had your experiences!
>
> Mary

YES!!!
The "b-w" was truly a "jerk" with not only what
he said, but with his verbal bullying and badgering
afterward. I was astonished! I VERY rarely call
someone a "jerk", and have a great capacity for
the understanding of, and the compassion for,
what can motivate bad behavior, but his was
unconscionable! I wish no one ill, but if he finds
himself sometime with a hard to define and treat
ailment, I do hope he remembers where he left
me...
--
DR
Mary Fisher - 14 Apr 2004 16:12 GMT
> > > "I do not have epilepsy", and one (a "big-whig")
> > > has stated flatly that "I have no neurological problems".
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> ailment, I do hope he remembers where he left
> me...

A few years ago I went to our local BW (no option) to have a breast lump
looked at. He said it wasn't cancer and I should have it out.

"Why?" I asked.

"Because I know you ladies, you worry." He said.

"You don't know me!" I said and walked out.

I didn't worry either but seven years later a routine mammogram showed a
lump which was malignant and I had it out - by his successor thank goodness.
It wasn't in the same place but I looked at my notes, the BW Mr Pratt (yes,
really) had written some pompous things about me. I get on extremely well
with his successor.

It's sad that there are such people about but I do think it's getting
better. Perhaps that's because patients are more knowledgeable and not as
willing to be pushed about.

While we shouldn't believe everything we read in ngs they can be valuable in
pointing us in generally right ways - and at least we don't feel alone and
helpless.

Mary
> --
>  DR
Bob - 14 Apr 2004 16:25 GMT
> <much snipping>
> > It's not totally clear as to what you're looking for.  Labels?  i.e. are you
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> > my Complex Partials except I don't remember mine and you remember yours. That a
> > difference between Simple & Complex - not out like a light.<g>

Your Type 1 in its basic form is right out of the textbook as an Atonic (drop) seizure. See:
http://www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/seizure_atonic.html
It's when they last for a long period that they don't fully fit that description.

> Yes. Also the great length of the "limps" (sometimes many hours)
> does not fit most seizure descriptions I've seen. It is interesting
> to see you report having long seizures - something that does
> not appear in "standard" lists except as a series of seizures
> ("status").

I had one of my lengthy Complex Partials while my wife & I were out in front of our house in
the driveway.  She recognized my sudden changed state with feet "glued to the ground" and a
strange look on my face. To make a long story short, she led me eventually back into the house
and I didn't come out of it for well over 4 hours. During similar episodes I've started
clicking the mouse on this computer, asked "where am I", and watered the plants at a
nursery.<g>  I was "conscious", but it wasn't the normal me!

> > > Common to all: I remain conscious;
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> from there to where we had stopped it to go back (where I realized that
> the main character had lost his beard, and I could not remember how).

Then you have indeed, per above,  had an Absence or altered consciousness as in Complex
Partial.

> > What is your history of drug treatment, past & current? You've only mentioned
> > Topamax. You also mentioned problems at a young age - how young?  Is there any
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> (disasterous) - see the "Topamax" thread immediately
> above this one for more details. Nothing else of note in drugs.

Why in the world are you still taking it???? You are having side effects and should have been
switched to something different!

> The "glows", I used to call them ("confusion", in my description)
> I remember from maybe 2-3 years old, with their stopping
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> about six months ago about the time of  a high fever and a
> heart problem a couple of weeks later.

I had problems when I was younger also, but had had no problems for over 20 years. Then in
1998 I had an infection that was treated with an anti-biotic after I had let it go too long
without seeking treatment. In 2000, I started taking AED's. I was told that it is not unusual
for these problems to return in one's later years after being gone.

> > What are those "structural irregularities" and where are they?  Tumor? Scar
> > tissue? Developmental?
>
> No tumors, possible "lesions" (one reading only, need to
> clarify this...), three very enlarged vessels (attributed to high
> blood pressure

Mention of blood pressure here makes me wonder if you've had a stroke?

Bob
David Ruether - 14 Apr 2004 17:07 GMT
> > <much snipping>

> Your Type 1 in its basic form is right out of the textbook as an Atonic (drop) seizure. See:
> http://www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/seizure_atonic.html
> It's when they last for a long period that they don't fully fit that description.

Yes. There is always a "fly in the ointment" in terms of matching
(I have tried to be careful to not make my descriptions match
conditions I know about, though). The other parts that don't fit well
are the time and extent - I "go limp" over maybe 20-30 seconds,
and generally don't lose all muscle strength everywhere at once,
especially if some support muscles are "in use" at the time (I've
never fallen with any of these things...).

> > Yes. Also the great length of the "limps" (sometimes many hours)
> > does not fit most seizure descriptions I've seen. It is interesting
> > to see you report having long seizures - something that does
> > not appear in "standard" lists except as a series of seizures
> > ("status").

> I had one of my lengthy Complex Partials while my wife & I were out in front of our house in
> the driveway.  She recognized my sudden changed state with feet "glued to the ground" and a
> strange look on my face. To make a long story short, she led me eventually back into the house
> and I didn't come out of it for well over 4 hours. During similar episodes I've started
> clicking the mouse on this computer, asked "where am I", and watered the plants at a
> nursery.<g>  I was "conscious", but it wasn't the normal me!

This is useful info that has not appeared elsewhere that I remember.
"Long" seizures (which are not sequences of shorter ones) do not
seem to be in the "web-literature"...

> > Yes. I take it to mean that I have not missed awareness of events, and
> > remember what happened to me, though I may be "dazed", "confused",
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > from there to where we had stopped it to go back (where I realized that
> > the main character had lost his beard, and I could not remember how).

> Then you have indeed, per above,  had an Absence or altered consciousness as in Complex
> Partial.

It may be that I did, but I don't know. I remain questioning about
all things with what is going on (doctors' pronouncements included)
until enough of it makes sense, and there is some "tangible" proof.
But I want to hear all comments/ideas...

> > I've only been on Topamax, and that for only a short time
> > (disasterous) - see the "Topamax" thread immediately
> > above this one for more details. Nothing else of note in drugs.

> Why in the world are you still taking it???? You are having side effects and should have been
> switched to something different!

I'm not taking it. I thought I was clear that I was on it only three weeks
(one at 25mg/day, one at 50mg/day, then one at 25mg/day, then off it,
2 1.2 months ago). The surprise was how long it took to get off its
"climbing the walls" withdrawal effects, and that the speech problems
from it remained after being off it. One neurologist wants to put me on
Depakote, but I'm reluctant after the experience with Topamax, and
also since I would probably need to have blood-monitoring with it for
a while, and he is long-distance, and it looks like the local people are
"done" with me (they "know" what it is, and it isn't "epilepsy"...;-).

> > The "glows", I used to call them ("confusion", in my description)
> > I remember from maybe 2-3 years old, with their stopping
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > about six months ago about the time of  a high fever and a
> > heart problem a couple of weeks later.

> I had problems when I was younger also, but had had no problems for over 20 years. Then in
> 1998 I had an infection that was treated with an anti-biotic after I had let it go too long
> without seeking treatment. In 2000, I started taking AED's. I was told that it is not unusual
> for these problems to return in one's later years after being gone.

Yes. I have heard about this. Most "literature" on epilepsy appears
to be about children, for obvious reasons, so I was surprised to
find that "simple partial seizures" are more likely to appear as we
get older, unlike many that tend to go away. I have wondered
about the infection I had 6 months ago (when most of this stuff
began), the various drugs I've had since then, and the dye used
in the heart catheterization 6 months ago as possible contributors
in all this (plus the emotional effects all the stuff 6 months ago had
on me, too...).

> > > What are those "structural irregularities" and where are they?  Tumor? Scar
> > > tissue? Developmental?

> > No tumors, possible "lesions" (one reading only, need to
> > clarify this...), three very enlarged vessels (attributed to high
> > blood pressure
[...]

> Mention of blood pressure here makes me wonder if you've had a stroke?

I wondered about this and hemorrhaging, since I was on "blood
thinners" (and bleeding spontaneously externally) for a few days in
October, and the heart arrhythmia started with a VERY high
heart rate. The MRIs a few months later did not reveal problems
from this, apparently. (Best current guess for the cause of the
arrhythmia: possibly an effect of the high fever a few days earlier,
and an enlarged heart from the OSA that was later discovered
and treated.)
Thanks for the comments.

> Bob

--
DR
Bob - 14 Apr 2004 17:35 GMT
> > > <much snipping>
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Yes. There is always a "fly in the ointment" in terms of matching

Keep in mind that the website is not necessarily going into all the variations. They probably give
just enough to describe the condition.

> (I have tried to be careful to not make my descriptions match
> conditions I know about, though). The other parts that don't fit well
> are the time and extent - I "go limp" over maybe 20-30 seconds,
> and generally don't lose all muscle strength everywhere at once,
> especially if some support muscles are "in use" at the time (I've
> never fallen with any of these things...).

But think how wordy the website would be with all the variations on the theme.

> > > Yes. Also the great length of the "limps" (sometimes many hours)
> > > does not fit most seizure descriptions I've seen. It is interesting
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> "Long" seizures (which are not sequences of shorter ones) do not
> seem to be in the "web-literature"...

I had many of those lengthy ones and some shorter ones.  They (Complex Partials) were eventually
controlled with Phenobarbital. The Neurontin had reduced my Simple Partials. Keppra & Tegretol
hadn't helped & Lamictal gave me the rash.

> > > I've only been on Topamax, and that for only a short time
> > > (disasterous) - see the "Topamax" thread immediately
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> a while, and he is long-distance, and it looks like the local people are
> "done" with me (they "know" what it is, and it isn't "epilepsy"...;-).

There are other AED's and it sounds as though you should be using something!

Bob
David Ruether - 14 Apr 2004 18:11 GMT
[much snipping throughout]

> Keep in mind that the website is not necessarily going into all the variations. They probably give
> just enough to describe the condition.

Yes. And likely the description is "generalized", not noting
relatively rare exceptions - but then there is the problem of
those who do not see a good "fit" assuming that it therefore
does not fit well enough to apply...

> But think how wordy the website would be with all the variations on the theme.

But, maybe more useful, at least to a minority...

> I had many of those lengthy ones and some shorter ones.  They (Complex Partials) were eventually
> controlled with Phenobarbital. The Neurontin had reduced my Simple Partials. Keppra & Tegretol
> hadn't helped & Lamictal gave me the rash.

Thanks for the information. It appears that my local
neurologists gave up after not finding a simple cause, and
I was also hoping for not only that, but for a simple treatment
(one drug, no side-effects, easy to take...;-).
Ah, well...;-)

> There are other AED's and it sounds as though you should be using something!

Yes, but first we need to identify what is going on, then what is
most likely (as a start) to take care of it, and do this through
local doctors who have already "given up". Or, as a friend said
recently, "What I need to do is find a great local doctor who
will listen, figure out what is going on, and give me the
appropriate treatment." My response was, "Yes - can you
give me the name of that doctor, please?" ;-) And, I would be
happy enough to just jump ahead to getting the appropriate
medication, but......;-) Maybe the Depakote is worth a try, if
I can figure out the logistics of covering it and blood-work
on my insurance, scared as I am about another drug after
trying Topamax...
Thanks.

> Bob

--
DR
Bob - 14 Apr 2004 19:42 GMT
> [much snipping throughout]
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> those who do not see a good "fit" assuming that it therefore
> does not fit well enough to apply...

Don't make that assumption!

> > But think how wordy the website would be with all the variations on the theme.
>
> But, maybe more useful, at least to a minority...

That could be done via separate webpages that were pointed to. One would have the option of reading
those or not. But then again, what good does having a Label/Name do you?

> > I had many of those lengthy ones and some shorter ones.  They (Complex Partials) were eventually
> > controlled with Phenobarbital. The Neurontin had reduced my Simple Partials. Keppra & Tegretol
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> (one drug, no side-effects, easy to take...;-).
> Ah, well...;-)

See below.

> > There are other AED's and it sounds as though you should be using something!
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> on my insurance, scared as I am about another drug after
> trying Topamax...

There's something about Depakote that I have a bad feeling about, but I can't remember why - reading
about it here once upon a time?  I had thought that the doctors needed to know where the seizures were
via EEG etc to determine the right drugs, but I also see that it is a lot of trial & error - maybe
that's what it all is.  Ask that Depakote doctor about Neurontin. No blood work, no side effects. It was
my GP's first choice and I'm still on it.  In fact (and you know the names), why don't you ask him "why
not Lamictal? Tegetol? etc" just to see what the answers are. Make the phone call and find out so you
can get *something* for your condition. You *need* something.

Bob
David Ruether - 15 Apr 2004 14:35 GMT
> > [much snipping throughout]

> > Yes. And likely the description is "generalized", not noting
> > relatively rare exceptions - but then there is the problem of
> > those who do not see a good "fit" assuming that it therefore
> > does not fit well enough to apply...

> Don't make that assumption!

Yes, that is what I was saying, though we must at some
level take descriptions at face value or there are no
standards at all. It is hard to decide where that point is,
though, when you have no additional descriptions beyond
the simplified, generalized ones - which is why I posted
descriptions here of what *I* experience, to get more
specific comments about these.

> > > But think how wordy the website would be with all the variations on the theme.

> > But, maybe more useful, at least to a minority...

> That could be done via separate webpages that were pointed to. One would have the option of reading
> those or not. But then again, what good does having a Label/Name do you?

It would be VERY useful. I'm now in "limbo" with all the
local neurologists in terms of possible epilepsy who believe
I don't have it - and without names to base my research on,
and without knowing what to go back to them with, they
can't/won't look/ test or prescribe for what I'm experiencing.
Names *are* important!

> > Yes, but first we need to identify what is going on, then what is
> > most likely (as a start) to take care of it, and do this through
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> > on my insurance, scared as I am about another drug after
> > trying Topamax...

> There's something about Depakote that I have a bad feeling about, but I can't remember why - reading
> about it here once upon a time?  I had thought that the doctors needed to know where the seizures were
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> not Lamictal? Tegetol? etc" just to see what the answers are. Make the phone call and find out so you
> can get *something* for your condition. You *need* something.

The "Topamax experiment" was disasterous as a "shot in the dark"
try at treatment - I don't want to repeat that mistake. All these AEDs
can have very bad side effects, but most are not predictable, and
I don't like much Depakote's predictable ones. Depakote, though,
is the only thing I have access to right now in a usable trial quantity
without a local prescription. I have not decided yet what to do
about it...

Thanks for the comments.
--
DR
Bob - 15 Apr 2004 15:30 GMT
> > > [much snipping throughout]
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> can't/won't look/ test or prescribe for what I'm experiencing.
> Names *are* important!

You aren't going to come up with *Names* that a professionally trained neurologist isn't already familiar
with. It's virtually guaranteed that whatever name you come up with will be an opportunity to pooh-pooh what
you say.

> > There's something about Depakote that I have a bad feeling about, but I can't remember why - reading
> > about it here once upon a time?  I had thought that the doctors needed to know where the seizures were
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> without a local prescription. I have not decided yet what to do
> about it...

But Topamax is already noted for its side effects from what I recall. It was one heck of a drug for a first
try.

The Depakote part came back to me. It was effective as a treatment for JME, Juvenile Myoclonic Epilepsy. See:
http://www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/epilepsy_juvenilemyoclonic.html
for that part and see:
http://www.epilepsy.com/medications/b_depakote_intro.html
for info on Depakote.

Bob
David Ruether - 15 Apr 2004 16:56 GMT
> > > > [much snipping throughout]

> > >  But then again, what good does having a Label/Name do you?

> > It would be VERY useful. I'm now in "limbo" with all the
> > local neurologists in terms of possible epilepsy who believe
> > I don't have it - and without names to base my research on,
> > and without knowing what to go back to them with, they
> > can't/won't look/ test or prescribe for what I'm experiencing.
> > Names *are* important!

> You aren't going to come up with *Names* that a professionally trained neurologist isn't already familiar
> with. It's virtually guaranteed that whatever name you come up with will be an opportunity to pooh-pooh what
> you say.

Both things are true. But, *no neurologist* has yet mentioned "simple
partial seizure" to me at all, ever. Information that that may apply, with
some question to a neurologist about this specifically, *may* offer
the "light bulb" that gets this stuff going again (maybe wishful thinking,
but when you're desperate...;-). Without *anything* to go on at all
(even if what I do come up with is dismissed), I remain "nowhere" in
terms of proceeding with anything related to this with the local neurologists.
I'm "grabbing at straws" at this point, which is better than nothing...
BTW, with my OSA and subsequent treatment, NO heart doctor
had mentioned to me that I had an enlarged heart when I had heart
arrhythmia, and treatment came only when I mentioned to my local
neurologist that I may have OSA. When he asked why I thought this,
I told him about the nurses noting it verbally to me while in the hospital,
and my partner noting it at night. Later, when I read my own records,
I found notes about the enlarged heart, which likely explained the
arrhythmia. The neurologist ordered the sleep study that resulted
in treatment and in the considerable reduction in my heart size and
in blood-pressure reduction. This came, though, only from *my*
mentioning the possibility to my main neurologist, and from his
taking it seriously enough to order the study. It did NOT come
from any of the heart specialists I saw, or from my GP! I still have
some hope for this neurologist, though I do not think he is much
of a diagnostician - but at least he sometimes listens...

> > > There's something about Depakote that I have a bad feeling about, but I can't remember why - reading
> > > about it here once upon a time?  I had thought that the doctors needed to know where the seizures were
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > > not Lamictal? Tegetol? etc" just to see what the answers are. Make the phone call and find out so you
> > > can get *something* for your condition. You *need* something.

> > The "Topamax experiment" was disasterous as a "shot in the dark"
> > try at treatment - I don't want to repeat that mistake. All these AEDs
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > without a local prescription. I have not decided yet what to do
> > about it...

> But Topamax is already noted for its side effects from what I recall. It was one heck of a drug for a first
> try.

Actually, it was the most "benign"-looking of the three likely to work for
what we thought might be JME. The speech problem was not noted in
any obvious way in anything I could find on Topamax. Depakote and
Klonopin were the worse alternatives at the time. If simple partial
seizures is at least part of what is currently going on (JME now looks
unlikely), then there are alternatives, but these look also possibly bad
in side-effects. Depakote looks bad in *probable* side effects, as does
Klonopin, though.
.
> The Depakote part came back to me. It was effective as a treatment for JME, Juvenile Myoclonic Epilepsy. See:
> http://www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/epilepsy_juvenilemyoclonic.html
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Bob

Yes, thanks, I've been there...
--
DR
Mary Fisher - 15 Apr 2004 17:58 GMT
"David Ruether" <rpn1@no-junk.cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:9hyfc.55515>

> > > > > [much snipping throughout]

< even more snipping ... >

Where are you, David? It looks to me that you're posting from Cornell
University but I don't know ...

Mary
Mary Fisher - 15 Apr 2004 15:50 GMT
> > That could be done via separate webpages that were pointed to. One would have the option of reading
> > those or not. But then again, what good does having a Label/Name do you?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> can't/won't look/ test or prescribe for what I'm experiencing.
> Names *are* important!

Only if everyone agrees on their definition ...

Mary
David Ruether - 15 Apr 2004 16:15 GMT
[......]
> > > those or not. But then again, what good does having a Label/Name do you?

> > It would be VERY useful. I'm now in "limbo" with all the
> > local neurologists in terms of possible epilepsy who believe
> > I don't have it - and without names to base my research on,
> > and without knowing what to go back to them with, they
> > can't/won't look/ test or prescribe for what I'm experiencing.
> > Names *are* important!

> Only if everyone agrees on their definition ...
>
> Mary

Always true, and always a problem...;-)
But without *something* to go with, I'm "nowhere".
--
DR
Vicky - 14 Apr 2004 04:24 GMT
> "Episodes" Types I've Had - What Are They?            4-13-04

> Type 5, "muscle-control problems"--
> I sometimes find it difficult to control muscles well while doing
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> email only, please alter the obvious in the address before sending.
> Thanks.

   Hi ,,
  Just a thought,,,maybe look into Tourettes Syndrome...
David Ruether - 14 Apr 2004 14:31 GMT
> > "Episodes" Types I've Had - What Are They?            4-13-04
[...]
> > Type 5, "muscle-control problems"--
> > I sometimes find it difficult to control muscles well while doing
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> > email only, please alter the obvious in the address before sending.
> > Thanks.

>     Hi ,,
>    Just a thought,,,maybe look into Tourettes Syndrome...

I dismissed this early on, but then lately it began to make
more sense as I looked at it more closely - but then I
discovered that, by what appears to be a "quirk" in the
definition, Tourettes is excluded in standard definitions
if it has not occurred by the age of 18. The earliest I
could see a possible link with it would be around the age
of 30...
Hmmmmmm.....;-)
Thanks for the comment.
--
DR
Vicky - 15 Apr 2004 03:12 GMT
>>>"Episodes" Types I've Had - What Are They?            4-13-04
>
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> --
>  DR

   Yes,,, Have your neurologists ruled out MS?
  Doesn't sound like you've had a spinal tap,
  And a MRI apparently is not always conclusive..

    Vicky
David Ruether - 15 Apr 2004 14:47 GMT
[....]

>    ....Have your neurologists ruled out MS?
>    Doesn't sound like you've had a spinal tap,
>    And a MRI apparently is not always conclusive..
>
>      Vicky

MS has not been mentioned by any of the neurologists.
I have had an MRI (no one commented on anything there
possibly related to MS), and have not had a spinal tap.
Thanks.
--
DR
 
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