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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Epilepsy / April 2004

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Natural Electro-Shock Therapy (EST)

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TIMMCO - 19 Apr 2004 16:17 GMT
It occurred to me that the inspiration for the development for Electro-Shock
Therapy (EST) derived from observations of the after effects of Seizures -
events which have a definite electrical component.  Minds so utterly
constricted by past events became almost miraculously liberated.  My research
has not yet turned up documentation as to the roots of EST.  I wonder if anyone
else has  information on the subject.
gaross - 19 Apr 2004 21:19 GMT
  I thought it was used in ~1920s or 30s? to treat assorted mental
afflictions.  If you came across the Doctor's 'geek name' for it (unless EST
is it),  there might be other names that are searchable.   I had thought,
for one, that it was used to treat schizophrenia, possibly more so? or in
place of, epilepsy.   Since some of the szr. types 'we have',  only last a
short period when they happen, the shocks etc. would have had to be used in
Hospital or while a patient was under observation.    While some of the
other afflictions that might affect the brain, might be treatable (or were
thought to have been treatable with it),  depending on the type of cause,
there might be less success than first expected.
   And if I had to guess, I'd guess that an ElectroEncephalograph (EEG) was
developed First to measure internal Electrical pulses?  then when some of
the Epilepsy or other Mental Discharges were observed to be measurable, that
the Convulsive 'Defib '  was experimented with first to try 'cure' the
electrical firings.....

 (Since he hasn't posted for ages, someone here or 'off group'? I thought
had told me that Howdy Dave had turned off his VNS implant? since he was
either controlled without it, or it was thought it wasn't performing as well
as when he had first started with it?   That might not be accurate, btw.  My
memory is as reliable as this RAM chip here.  )    G.R.

> It occurred to me that the inspiration for the development for Electro-Shock
> Therapy (EST) derived from observations of the after effects of Seizures -
> events which have a definite electrical component.  Minds so utterly
> constricted by past events became almost miraculously liberated.  My research
> has not yet turned up documentation as to the roots of EST.  I wonder if anyone
> else has  information on the subject.
Bob - 19 Apr 2004 22:14 GMT
>    I thought it was used in ~1920s or 30s? to treat assorted mental
> afflictions.  If you came across the Doctor's 'geek name' for it (unless EST
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> the Convulsive 'Defib '  was experimented with first to try 'cure' the
> electrical firings.....

Here's some info on the topic

http://www.electroboy.com/electroshocktherapy.htm

>   (Since he hasn't posted for ages, someone here or 'off group'? I thought
> had told me that Howdy Dave had turned off his VNS implant? since he was
> either controlled without it, or it was thought it wasn't performing as well
> as when he had first started with it?   That might not be accurate, btw.  My
> memory is as reliable as this RAM chip here.  )    G.R.

He seems to have dropped the group here and spends his time lately at

http://brain.hastypastry.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=133

> > It occurred to me that the inspiration for the development for
> > Electro-Shock
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> > anyone
> > else has  information on the subject.

Hope the above helps.

Bob
Mary Fisher - 19 Apr 2004 22:48 GMT
> >   <Howdy Dave>
>
> He seems to have dropped the group here

That's a shame. How can we get him back, we need him!

Mary
Robert A. Fink, M. D. - 20 Apr 2004 00:05 GMT
>It occurred to me that the inspiration for the development for Electro-Shock
>Therapy (EST) derived from observations of the after effects of Seizures -
>events which have a definite electrical component.  Minds so utterly
>constricted by past events became almost miraculously liberated.  My research
>has not yet turned up documentation as to the roots of EST.  I wonder if anyone
>else has  information on the subject.

People thought that there was a lower incidence of schizophrenia in
epileptic patients, and so they tried to develop a method which would
cause seizures in otherwise healthy schizophrenics and depressed
patients.  

Cerletti and Bini (in Italy) were the first to use electricity; but
other methods were used, including overdoses of insulin (which lowered
the blood sugar and put patients into coma which occasionally resulted
in death or brain damage).

Most knowledgeable people today do not consider shock therapy
(electric or insulin) to be a valid treatment of mental illness and
there is evidence that it causes brain damage, some of which may not
be reversible.

There *may* be some justification for ECT in cases of suicidal
depression which has not responded to all other forms of treatment,
including the most powerful medications.

Best,

Bob

Robert A. Fink, M.D., FACS, P. C.
2500 Milvia Street   Suite 222
Berkeley, California  94704-2636  USA


Telephone:  510-849-2555
FAX:  510-849-2557
<http://www.rafink.com>

"Ex Tristitia Virtus"

--------------------------------------
NOTE:  The above message is not to be considered as
"medical advice".  Medical advice can be given only  
after a "hands-on" examination of the patient by a
physician.

========================================
Klenow - 20 Apr 2004 07:56 GMT
> Cerletti and Bini (in Italy) were the first to use electricity; but
> other methods were used, including overdoses of insulin (which lowered
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> there is evidence that it causes brain damage, some of which may not
> be reversible.

There is very little evidence that it causes brain damage.  In fact, there
is so little evidence that it is widely believed NOT to cause brain damage.
Certainly, in the animal models of ECT extensive and detailed analysis of
the brains of animals undergoing the treatment have failed to find even
subtle cell loss.  There is a very recent study using very sensitive
unbiased cell counting which found some though.  What has been consistently
found is an enhancement (potentiation) of neural responses as well as a
change in neuronal connectivity as well as an increase in the production of
new neurons in the hippocampus (neurogenesis).  Our lab has taken the view
that this might be responsible for some of the negative side effects of the
procedure, but we are in the minority.  Most are hypothesizing that these
changes might really be related to the therepeutic aspects of ECT.  The
changes in neurogenesis are especially thought to be involved the the
antidepressant actions of ECT but this is really still at the hypothesis
stage.  A nifty recent study found that stopping neurogenesis in the
hippocampus completely blocks the antidepressant effects of antidepressant
drugs in mice.  Since every antidepressant treatment examined so far has
been found to powerfully increase neurogenesis, this really made people look
up and take notice.

> There *may* be some justification for ECT in cases of suicidal
> depression which has not responded to all other forms of treatment,
> including the most powerful medications.

ECT is still considered to be the most effective treatment (with the fewest
side effects) there is for severe (suicidal) drug non-responsive depression
even though the mechanism of action isn't known.  My own guess is that is
has a lot to do with the release of several different neurotrophic
(modulatory) factors which promote cell growth and survival.
Robert A. Fink, M. D. - 20 Apr 2004 23:35 GMT
>There is very little evidence that it causes brain damage.  In fact, there
>is so little evidence that it is widely believed NOT to cause brain damage.

Then how do you explain the dementia (mainly loss of memory) which
consistently occurs after ECT and sometimes persists indefinitely?

A peer-reviewed published paper with its references:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shock Treatment, Brain Damage, and
 Memory Loss: A Neurological Perspective

                        John M. Friedberg, M.D.

American Journal of Psychiatry 134:9, September 1977. pp: 1010-1013.

    The author reviews reports of neuropathology resulting from
    electroconvulsive therapy in experimental animals and humans.
    Although findings of petechial hemorrhage. gliosis. and neuronal
loss
    were well established in the decade following the introduction of
    ECT. they have been generally ignored since then. ECT produces
    characteristic EEG changes and severe retrograde amnesia. as well
as
    other more subtle effects on memory and learning. The author
    concludes that ECT results in brain disease and questions whether
    doctors should offer brain damage to their patients.

A 32 year old woman who had received 21 ECT treatments stated 5 years
later.

    One of the results of the whole thing is that I have no memory of
    what happened in the year to year and a half prior to my shock
    treatments. The doctor assured me that it was going to come back
and
    it never has. I don't remember a bloody thing. I couldn't even
find
    my way around the town I lived in for three years. If I walked
into a
    building I didn't even know where I was. I could barely find my
way
    around my own house. I could sew and knit before. but afterward I
    could no more comprehend a pattern to sew than the man in the
moon.
    (1. p. 22)

By 1928, 10 years before the introduction of electroconvulsive
therapy, it was known that accidental death by cardiac arrest could
result from as little as 70 to 80 milliamperes in the human (2). it
was also known in this early period that voltage applied to the head,
as
in legal electrocution, produced hemorrhage and rupture of cranial
contents. Ugo Cerletti (3) demonstrated that electricity in the range
of
100 volts and 200 milliamperes is rarely fatal when the current path
is
confined to the head. but does evoke a grand mal seizure marked by a
stereotyped succession of events. A tetanic muscular contraction, the
"electric spasm,'' is followed after a latency of seconds by
unconsciousness. a high voltage paroxysmal spike and sharp-wave
discharge,
and a clonic convulsion. Upon recovery of consciousness the subject is
left with a transient acute brain syndrome. a high likelihood of
permanent
brain damage, and greater retrograde amnesia than is seen in any other
form of head injury.

   BRAIN DAMAGE IN EXPERIMENTAL ANIMALS

Before examining the premise that ECT damages human brains. a brief
discussion of the lesions produced in animals by electrically induced
convulsions is worthwhile. The many reports on this subject indicate
that
petechial hemorrhages scattered throughout both white and gray matter
and
concentrated in the path of the current are the most consistent
finding.
If animals are sacrificed after a delay of days or weeks following a
convulsive series, hemosiderin pigment in phagocytes remains as
evidence
of vascular insult. Proliferation of glial cells. neuronal changes.
and
drop-out are also commonly reported.

In 1938, the year of the first use of ECT on a human being, Lucio
Bini. Cerletti's collaborator. reported "widespread and severe ' brain
damage in dogs with mouth to rectum electrode placement (4). At least
seven subsequent animal studies employing conventional cranial
electrodes
supported his findings (5-11). These culminated in the exhaustive
controlled experiment by Hans Hartelius in 1952 ( 12). This researcher
found discernible vascular, glial. and neuronal changes in cats
subjected
to a maximum of 16 shocks. The animals were not paralyzed but were
protected from physical injury during the seizure. Damage was slight
but
consistent. and the author concluded:

"The question of whether or not irreversible damage to the nerve cells
may
occur in association with ECT must therefore be answered in the
affirmative.''

Furthermore, by examination of unlabeled slides alone Hartelius was
able to correctly recognize 8 of 8 slides from shocked animals as well
as
8 of 8 controls. Although he considered many of the vascular and glial
changes to be reversible, there was no mistaking the brain of a
shocked
animal for that of a control.

Since that time, ECT in humans has been modified through the use of
oxygen and muscle paralysis to reduce the incidence of bone fractures.
Although it is believed that these modifications also reduce brain
damage.
there are no animal studies to support this idea. On the contrary
recent
work in England by Meldrum and associates (13. 14) on status
epilepticus
in pnmates suggests that the overexcited neuron by itself may be an
important factor in seizure damage, especially in the hippocampus.

                  HUMAN BRAIN DAMAGE

Let us turn now to the neuropathological findings in humans who died
during or shortly after ECT. As in lower animals. bleeding is the most
frequent non- specific tissue response to injury and the one seen most
often after electric shock. The first autopsy study in this country
revealed brain damage identical to that seen in experimental animals.
Alpers and Hughes (15) described the brains of 2 women who had
received 62
and 6 shocks, respectively. The first woman's seizures had been
suppressed
by curare. Both brains showed hemorrhagic lesions around small blood
vessels, rare- faction of tissue, and gliosis.

Throughout the 1940s similar reports continued to call attention to
brain changes after ECT. including cases in which oxygen and curare
had been administered (16). In 1948 Riese (17) added 2 more autopsy
studies to the growing list and commented, "In all observations of
sudden death after electric shock reported so far. petechial
hemorrhages, cellular changes and some glial proliferation stand out
prominently. as an almost constant whole."

Pathologists were especially interested in cases that discriminated
between the direct effect of electricity and the mechanical and
hypoxia effects secondary to convulsive motor activity. In 1953 Larsen
reported on a 45-year old man who had been given 4 electroshocks in
the
course of 5 days. The ECT did not induce any convulsions. The subject
died
from pneumonia 36 hours after the fourth electroshock. At autopsy
fresh
subarachnoid hemorrhage was found in the upper part of the left motor
region...."at the site where an electrode had been applied."(18)

In 1957 Impastato summarized 254 electroshock fatalities. Brain damage
was
the leading cause of death in persons under 40 years of age, and
nearly
one-fifth of all cerebral deaths were hemorrhagic (19).

some physicians were alarmed by the evidence of human brain damage. In
1959 Allen reported 18 cases in which he had found signs and symptoms
of
neurological sequelae following ECT. He concluded, "It is probable
that
some damage, which may be reversible but is often irreversible, is
inseparable from this form of treatment," and called for "more serious
consideration of the entire procedure."(20)

In 1963, McKegney and associates (21) reported the case of a 23 year
old man who became comatose 15 minutes after a single shock. The
significance of this case was twofold: first, a complete physical and
neurolgical examination was reportedly normal pnor to ECT, and
seconded
the ECT technique was contemporary and impeccable. The patient had
received .6 mg of atropine, 16 mg of succinylcholine (Anectine), and
forced oxygenation pre- and post-shock. ECT parameters were
conventional.
i.e.. 130 volts for .3 seconds. Four days later a brain biopsy showed
diffuse degeneration of neurons with hyperplasia of astrocytes. The
young
man never regained consciousness and at autopsy 2 months later
evidence of
old hemorrhage was found in the brain. This was the last detailed
report
in the English-language literature.

The damaging effects of ECT on the brain are thoroughly documented.
All told. there have been 21 reports of neuropathology in humans
(22-36). it is interesting that. despite the importance of a negative
finding there has not been a single detailed report of a normal human
brain after shock.

ELECTROENCEPHALOGRAPHIC EFFECTS OF ECT

Like other insults to the brain, ECT produces EEG abnormalities.
Diffuse slowing in the delta and theta range, increased voltage. and
dysrhythmic activity are seen in all patients immediately following a
series of bilateral ECT and, according to Blaurock and associates
(37),
may persist more than 6 months in 30 per cent of the cases. Such
slowing
suggests damage to the thalamus.

Sutherland and associates (38) showed that the side of the brain
shocked with unilateral ECT could be predicted by double-blind
assessment of EEG tracings.

The seizure thresholds of the hippocampus and other temporal lobe
structures are the lowest in the brain; considerable interest has
centered recently around "kindling, ' or seizure induction by
subthreshold stimulation of these areas in animals (39). The induction
of
a permanent epileptic disorder following ECT in humans was first
reported
in 1942 and other reports followed (40).

                         MEMORY LOSS

ECT is a common cause of severe retrograde amnesia, i.e.. destruction
of
memories of events prior to an injury. The potency of ECT as an
amnestic
exceeds that of severe closed head injury with coma. It is surpassed
only
by prolonged deficiency of thiamine pyrophosphate. bilateral temporal
lobectomy, and the accelerated dementias, such as Alzheimer's.

After ECT it takes 5 to 10 minutes just to remember who you are. where
you
are. and what day it is. In the first weeks after a full course,
retrograde and, to a lesser extent, anterograde amnesia are evident to
the
casual observer. But as time passes compensation occurs. As in other
forms
of brain injury. the subject is often oblivious to the residual
deficit.
Unless specific memories essential to daily living are discovered to
be
unavailable the victim may never know for sure the extent of memory
loss.
Unless sensitive tests for spontaneous recall of personal preshock
data
are employed no one else will know either.

The memory loss following ECT generally follows Ribot's law for all
pathological amnesias: the new dies before the old. This, of course,
is the opposite of normal forgetting. Squire, however, has shown that
the
loss may extend to items learned more than 30 years before (41).

The effect of ECT on memory was common knowledge within a few years of
its
introduction. There were reports of persons who forgot they had
children
(42. 43), although most amnesias involved humbler matters. such as the
woman who forgot how to cook familiar dishes (44) and another who
couldn't
remember her own clothing and demanded to know who had put the
unfamiliar
dresses in her closet (45). Some doctors dismissed these sequelae as
trivial or transient, although one psychiatrist remarked that
psychotherapy was useless in patients undergoing ECT because they
couldn't
remember "'either the analyst or the content of the analytic sessions
from
one day to the next.'' (46).

Numerous such case reports finally led to a definitive study of the
effects of ECT on memory by Irving Janis in 1950 (47). He found that
all 19 subjects in a controlled prospective investigation had
significant memory loss 4 weeks after ECT, compared to negligible
losses among control subjects. He also noted that these losses may
involve events of early childhood dating back 20 to 40 years, with the
more recently en- coded memories being the most vulnerable. Patient E.
for
example. a 38-year-old woman, had told Janis in an interview prior to
ECT
that thyroid medication had caused heart palpitations and panic which
led
to her admission to the psychiatric hospital. When asked after a
course of
10 shocks if she had ever taken thyroid she responded: "I don't think
so."

In the late 1940s. when the enthusiasm for ECT seemed to have passed
its peak (48). Lancaster and associates (49) advocated the use of
unilateral non-dominant ECT in treating patients who earn their
livelihood with retained knowledge. In this variant the current path
and most of the damage is confined to the nonverbal side of the brain,
usually the right hemisphere. This exploits the well-known
neurological
phenomenon of anosognosia. or denial. that is associated with
right-hemisphere lesions - victims can't verbalize their difficulties.
They complain less. Cohen and associates (50). however. using
design-completion tests. proved that shock to the right hemisphere
produces its own kind of memory loss: visual and spatial. Inglis found
in
1970 (51) that the effects of unilateral ECT were comparable to those
of
right and left temporal lobectomy, with identical impairment of memory
and
learning.

Recently there has been a good deal of human experimentation in a
futile effort to find electrode placements that eliminate amnesia. As
the
use of ECT has shifted from state hospitals to private practice, the
literature has focused more and more on memory loss.

Although some studies have purported to show provement of learning
ability after ECT, not one u sham ECT as a control and few used any
controls at all.(1)

In regard to more general intellectual ability, a study in 1973 (54)
showed that the performance on the Bender Gestalt perceptual motor
test of 20 institutionalized subjects who had received 50 or more ECT
treatments 10 to 15 years before testing was significantly impaired
compared to the performance of 20 carefully matched control subjects
who
had not received ECT. The authors inferred that ECT had caused
permanent
be damage.

            MECHANISM OF ACTION OF ECT

The mechanism of action of ECT can now be summarized on the basis of
evidence accumulated since introduction. Penfield and Perot showed in
the
1950's that memory traces may be evoked by direct electrical
stimulation
of the temporal lobe cortex. and nowhere else (55). Scoville and
Milner
(56) discovered that bilateral hippocampal resection utterly abolished
ability to remember any new material. resulting in a catastrophic
inability to learn. From numerous studies of the neuropathology of the
amnestic-confabulatory syndrome of Korsakoff it is known that the
mammillary bodies. the dorsal median nuclei of the thalamus and the
gray
matter surrounding the third ventricle a aqueduct are essential to the
general memory process. All of these critical brain structures are
just
beneath the thin squamous plate of the temporal bone. with seven
centimeters of the electrodes. in the direct path and highest density
of
the current during ECT.

                          CONCLUSIONS

From a neurological point of view ECT is a method of producing amnesia
by
selectively damaging the temporal lobes and the structures within
them.
When it was first introduced it was only one of several methods of
producing brain damage employed in psychiatry, including insulin coma
(1927)* camphor and Pentylenetetrazol (Metrazol) injections (1933).
and
prefrontal lobotomy (1935), it is the only such method from that era
still
used on a large scale. It is highly unlikely that ECT, if critically
examined, would be found acceptable by today's standards of safety.

From a neurological point of view ECT produces form of brain disease.
with
an estimated incidence new cases in the range of 100.000 per year
(57).
Many psychiatrists are unaware that ECT causes brain damage and memory
loss because numerous authorities and a leading psychiatric textbook
(58)
deny these facts.

Others, who know of its effects argue that the interruption of
unpleasant states of mind is worth the damage. Some are beginning to
give the client a truly informed choice, although state laws still
allow ECT to be imposed if the doctor feels that ''good cause''
exists.

Assuming free and fully informed Consent, it is well to reaffirm the
individual's right to pursue happiness through brain damage if he or
she so chooses. But we might ask ourselves whether we, as doctors
sworn to the Hippocratic Oath, should be offering it.

                             REFERENCES

1. Friedberg J: Shock Treatment is Not Good For Your Brain. San
Francisco. Glide Publications. 1976

2. Jaffe R: Electropatholohy: a review of the pathologic changes
produced by electric current. Arch Neurol Psychiatry 5:838- 864. 1928

3. Cerletti U: Electroshock therapy. in The Great Physiodynamic
Therapies in Psychiatry. Edited by Sackler A. Sackler R. Sackler M. et
al.
New York. Hoeber-Harper. t956, pp 91-120

4. Bini L: Experimental researches on epileptic attacks induced by the
electric current. Am J Psychiatry 94:172-174. 1938

5. Heilbrunn G. Lieben E: Biopsies on the brain following artificially
produced convulsions. Arch Neuroi Psychiatry 46:548-552, 1941

6. Neubuerger KT. Whitehead RW. Rutledge RK. et al: Pathologic changes
in
the brains of dogs given repeated electric shocks. Am J Med Sci
204:381-387. 1942

7.. Heilbrunn G. Weil A: Pathologic changes in the central nervous
system in experimental electric shock. Arch Neurol Psychiatry 47:918,
1942

8. Alpers 8J. Hughes J: Changes in the brain after electrically in-
duced convulsions in cats. Arch Neurol Psychiatry 47:385. 1942

9. Alexander L, Lowenbach H: Experimental studies on electroshock
treatment: the intracerebral vascular reaction as an indicator of the
path
of the current and the threshold of early changes within the brain
tissue.
J Neuropathot Exp Neurol 3:139, 1944

10. Ferraro A. Roizin L. Helfand M: Morphologic changes in the brain
of monkeys following convulsions electrically induced. J Neuropathol
Exp Neurol 5:285. 1946

11. Ferraro A. Roizin L: Cerebral morphologic changes in monkeys
subjected to a large number of electrically induced convulsions
(32-100). Am J Psychiatry 06:278. 1949

12. Hanelius H: Cerebral changes following electrically induced
convulsions. Acta Psychiat et Neurol Scand Supplement 77. I 952

13. Meldrum B. Roger V, 8riericy J: Systemic factors and epileptic
brain damage. Arch Neurol 29:82-87. 1973

14. Meldrum B. Honon R. 8rierley J: Epileptic brain damage in
adolescent baboons following seizures induced by allylglycine. Brain
97:407-418. 1974

15. Alpers BJ. Hughes J: The brain changes in electrically induced
convulsions in the human. J Neuropathol Exp Neurol 1:173. 1942

16. Ebaugh FG. Barnacle CH. Neubuerger KT: Fatalities following
electric convulsive therapy: report of two cases. with autopsy. Arch
Neurol Psychiatry 49:107. 1943

17. Riese W: Report of two new cases of sudden death after electric
shock treatment with histopathological findings in the central nervous
system. J Neuropathol Exp Neurol 7:98-100. 1948

18. Larsen EG. Vna-Jansen G: Ischaemic changes in the brain following
electroshock therapy. Acta Psychiat et Neurol Scand 28:75-80. 1953

19. Impastato D: Prevention of fatalities in electroshock therapy. Dis
Nerv Syst 18:34-75, 1957. (author's comment: Impastato, himself a
shock
doctor, estimated a DEATH RATE of 1/200 in this paper. Dr. Max Fink
has
recently alchemized this figure into 1/200 memory loss but the state
of
Texas in 1994 reported almost exactly the same rate as Impastato 37
years
before: 1/200. Not surprising - if anything the energy administered
hasn't
changed or is greater; the target population is older. Memory loss is
always present.)

20. Allen 1: Cerebral lesions from electric shock treatment. NZ Med J
58:369. 1959

21. MclCegney FP. Panzetta AF: An unusual fatal outcome of
electro-convulsive therapy. Am 1 Psychiatry 120:398-400. 1963

22. Ebaugh FG. Barnacle CH. Neubuerger KT: Fatalities following
electric convulsive therapy. A report of 2 cases with autopsy
findings. Trans Am Neurol Assoc. June 1942. p 36

23. Gralnick A: Fatalities associated with electric shock treatment of
psychoses: report of two cases with autopsy observations in one of
them.
Arch Neurol Psychiatry 51:397. 1944

24 Jetter WW: Fatal circulatory failure caused by electric shock
therapy. Arch Neurol Psychiatry 51:57. 1944

25. Meyer A. Teare D: Cerebral fat embolism after electrical con-
vulsion therapy. Br Med J 2:42. 1945

26. Sprague DW. Taylor RC: The complications of electric shock therapy
with a case study. Ohio State Med J 44:51-54. 1948

27.Will OA Jr. Rehfeidt FC: A fatality in electroshock therapy: report
of
a case and review of certain previously described cases. J Nerv Ment
Dis
107:105-126. 1948

28.Martin PA: Convulsive therapies: review of 511 cases at Pontiac
State Hospital. J Nerv Ment Dis 109:142-157. 1949

29. Riese W. Fultz GS: Electric shock treatment succeeded by complete
flaccid paralysis. hallucinations. and sudden death: case report with
anatomical findings in the central nervous system Am J Psychiatry
106:206-211. 1949

30. Liban E. Halpern L. Rozanski J: Vascular changes in the brain in a
fatality following electroshock. J Neuropathol Exp Neurol 10:30W318.
1951

31. Corsellis J. Meyer A: Histological changes in the brain after
uncomplicated electro-convulsive treatment. J Ment Sci 100.375- 383.
1954

32. Madow L: Brain changes in electroshock therapy. Am I Psychiatry
113:337-347. 1956

33. Faurbye A: Death under electroshock treatment. Acta Psychiatrica
et Neurologica 17:39.1942

34. Maclay WS: Death due to treatment. Proc Soc Med 46:13-20 1953

35. Matthew JR. Constan E: Complications following ECT over a
three-year period in a state institution. Am J Psychiatry 120:1 1 19-1
120. 1964

36. Barker J. Baker A: Deaths associated with electroplexy. J Ment Sci
105:339-34S 1959

37. Blaurock M. Lorimer F. Segal M. et al.: Focal
electroencephalographic changes in unilateral electric convulsion
therapy. Arch Neurol Psychiatry 64:220-226. 1950

38. Sutherland E. Oliver J. Knighl D: EEG. memory and confusion in
dominant. non-dominant and bi-temporal ECT. Br J Psychiatry:1059-1064.
1969

39. Wada J. Osawa T: Spontaneous recurrent seizure state induced by
daily electric amygdaloid stimulation in senegalese baboons (papio
papioh Neurology 26:273-286. 1976

40. Parfitt D: Persisting epilepsy following shock therapy. Br Med
2:514. 1942

41. Squire L: A thirty-year retrograde amnesia following
electroconvulsive therapy in depressed patients. Presented at the 3rd
annual meeting of the Society for Neuroscience. San Diego.1973

42. Tyler B. Lowenbach H: Polydiurnal electric shock treatment in
mental disorders. NC Med J 8:577-582. 1947

43. Medlicott R: Convulsive therapy. Results and complications in four
hundred cases. NZ Med J 47:338. 1948

44. Brody M: Prolonged memory defects following electrotherapy. J Ment
Sci
90 779. 1944

45. Zubin J: Objective studies of disordered persons. in Methods of
Psychology. Edited by Andrews T. New York. John Wiley and Sons. 1948.
pp
595-623

46. Stainbrook E: Shock therapy: psychologic theory and research.
Psychol Bull 43:21-60. 1956

47. Janis 1: Psychologic effects of electric convulsive treatments.
Part 1: post-treatment amnesias. J Nerv Ment Dis 3:359-382. 1950

48. Spiegel E (ed): Progress in Neurology and Psychiatry: An Annual
Review. New York. Grune h Stratton. 1957

49. Lancaster N. Steinen R. Frost 1: Unilateral electro-convulsive
therapy. J Ment Sci 104:221-227. 1958

*Sham ECT, an essential control technique due to the high drama of the
procedure, has been employed in only two studies. which were tests of
efficacy, not tests of memory. Neither study showed any superiority of
ECT
over controls.

Revised version of a paper presented at the 129th annual meeting of
the American Psychiatric Association, Miami Beach. Fla. May 1W 14.
1976.

================================================

Best,

Bob

Robert A. Fink, M.D., FACS, P. C.
2500 Milvia Street   Suite 222
Berkeley, California  94704-2636  USA


Telephone:  510-849-2555
FAX:  510-849-2557
<http://www.rafink.com>

"Ex Tristitia Virtus"

--------------------------------------
NOTE:  The above message is not to be considered as
"medical advice".  Medical advice can be given only  
after a "hands-on" examination of the patient by a
physician.

========================================
Klenow - 21 Apr 2004 06:16 GMT
> >There is very little evidence that it causes brain damage.  In fact, there
> >is so little evidence that it is widely believed NOT to cause brain damage.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With respect to the memory disruption for events surrounding the procedure,
as I stated in my post, there is little (if any) evidence of cell loss with
ECT but there is substantial evidence of alterations in neuronal connections
and electrophysiological responses when examined in animal models.  The
alteration of neuronal function can be responsible for memory disruption in
the absence of cell death.  Our lab has been studying the anatomical and
physiological effects of seizures (including electroconvulsive shock) on the
brain for over 10 years.  We have documented several changes which we
believe might be involved in the memory disruption but as I mentioned
before, we're in the minority in this belief.  Most people think that these
changes might be responsible for the antidepressant effects of ECT.

Unfortunately, you're dating yourself here.  In the almost 30 years since
the paper you presented was published, there have been great advances in
non-invasive determination of brain damage as well as post-mortem
determination of cell loss.  A major problem with many of the old studies of
cell loss had to do with changes in tissue volume which gave false-positives
for cell loss.  Much of the old studies are being re-done with the newer and
more sensitive techniques which include unbiased stereological cell counting
and histological stains for cell injury and death.    They're also examining
the effects of "modified" ECT which is done today as opposed to the
"unmodified" ECT done long ago.

The paper you presented is full of statements which have been shown to be
false in the 30 years since its publication.  You might want to look at more
up-to-date reviews on the subject.  Another great resource is Abrams, R.,
Electroconvulsive Therapy, 3rd ed. (Oxford Univ. Press, 1997).

Am J Psychiatry.  1994 Jul;151(7):957-70.

Does ECT alter brain structure?

Devanand DP, Dwork AJ, Hutchinson ER, Bolwig TG, Sackeim HA.

Department of Biological Psychiatry, New York State Psychiatric Institute,
NY
10032.

OBJECTIVE: The purpose of this study was to evaluate whether ECT causes
structural brain damage. METHOD: The literature review covered the following
areas: cognitive side effects, structural brain imaging, autopsies of
patients
who had received ECT, post-mortem studies of epileptic subjects, animal
studies
of electroconvulsive shock (ECS) and epilepsy, and the neuropathological
effects
of the passage of electricity, heat generation, and blood-brain barrier
disruption. RESULTS: ECT-induced cognitive deficits are transient, although
spotty memory loss may persist for events immediately surrounding the ECT
course. Prospective computerized tomography and magnetic resonance imaging
studies show no evidence of ECT-induced structural changes. Some early human
autopsy case reports from the unmodified ECT era reported cerebrovascular
lesions that were due to agonal changes or undiagnosed disease. In animal
ECS
studies that used a stimulus intensity and frequency comparable to human
ECT, no
neuronal loss was seen when appropriate control animals, blind ratings, and
perfusion fixation techniques were employed. Controlled studies using
quantitative cell counts have failed to show neuronal loss even after
prolonged
courses of ECS. Several well-controlled studies have demonstrated that
neuronal
loss occurs only after 1.5 to 2 hours of continuous seizure activity in
primates, and adequate muscle paralysis and oxygenation further delay these
changes. These conditions are not approached during ECT. Other findings
indicate
that the passage of electricity, thermal effects, and the transient
disruption
of the blood-brain barrier during ECS do not result in structural brain
damage.
CONCLUSIONS: There is no credible evidence that ECT causes structural brain
damage.

============================

Psychiatry Res.  2000 Oct 30;96(2):157-65.

No evident neuronal damage after electroconvulsive therapy.

Zachrisson OC, Balldin J, Ekman R, Naesh O, Rosengren L, Agren H, Blennow K.

Institute of Clinical Neuroscience, Department of Psychiatry and
Neurochemistry,
Goteborg University, Goteborg, Sweden. olof.zachrisson@neuro.gu.se

Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) is regarded as one of the most effective
treatments for major depressive disorder but has also been associated with
cognitive deficits possibly reflecting brain damage. The aim of this study
was
therefore to evaluate whether ECT induces cerebral damage as reflected by
different biochemical measures. The concentrations in the cerebrospinal
fluid
(CSF) of three established markers of neuronal/glial degeneration, tau
protein
(tau), neurofilament (NFL) and S-100 beta protein, were determined in nine
patients who fulfilled DSM-IV criteria for major depression. CSF samples
were
collected before and after a course of six ECT sessions. The CSF/serum (S)
albumin ratio reflecting potential blood-brain barrier (BBB) dysfunction was
also determined at these time points. The treatment was clinically
successful
with a significant decline of depressive symptoms in all patients as
assessed by
the Montgomery-Asberg Rating Scale for Depression. Several patients had
signs of
BBB dysfunction and/or neuronal damage before the start of treatment. Levels
of
CSF-tau, CSF-NFL and CSF-S-100 beta levels were not significantly changed by
ECT. Also the CSF/S albumin ratio was found to be unchanged after the course
of
ECT. In conclusion, no biochemical evidence of neuronal/glial damage or BBB
dysfunction could be demonstrated following a therapeutic course of ECT.

> >There is very little evidence that it causes brain damage.  In fact, there
> >is so little evidence that it is widely believed NOT to cause brain damage.
[quoted text clipped - 605 lines]
>
> ========================================
gaross - 21 Apr 2004 16:25 GMT
 The paper you listed, while more 'up to date' makes no mention of Epilepsy
or Seizure disorders, although it makes a passing reference to treatment of
depression and other conditions.

  Without having significant medical training myself, except wrt. the types
of seizures that *I have, which started in the Right Temporal Lobe, there
was no reference on earlier stuff except for whether damage did or did not
occur in any of the Temporal Lobes.

   If I can get (have got) 100% control within 3 years of onset, for
Complex Partial type seizures (1993), I doubt I'd attempt something as
'invasive' as ElectroShock Therapy when the original Encephalitis had
already damaged part of my Right Temporal Lobe before it was stopped
(1979).  It was the damage from the Encephalitis that produced the memory
dysfunction that made up the 1980s (for me), and not the Seizure onset in
1993.
 Actually I was better able to tell the Medics what had happened ahead of
seizures Better in 1993, than I would have been able to in 1979-85.
  (My) risking further damage or aneurisms(?) rather than using the
complete control I now have (since 1993), would appear to be
counterproductive for my type.     And I didn't see anything there that was
significant for Other Epilepsy Types,  except for the 'aside' of Experiments
in Treating Depression.    I only got depressed after I had read the whole
article and hadn't found anything New wrt. Epilepsy treatment... :-<

(WRT Science and Medical studies, lack of evidence that something doesn't
cause problems does not prove the corollary.  That's where the Double Blind
and other studies attempt to remove tester bias.
  Lack of proof that Thalidomide was Not a good Relaxant in the 1970s did
not determine all the potential effects for a Pregnant Mother.  )  G./

I marked a couple of parts with **s below related to comments above (within
Klenow's comments), and edited out some of the 'desiderata'.  I only have a
finite web-server. :-<  /

> > >There is very little evidence that it causes brain damage.  In fact,
there
> > >is so little evidence that it is widely believed NOT to cause brain
damage.

> > Then how do you explain the dementia (mainly loss of memory) which
> > consistently occurs after ECT and sometimes persists indefinitely?
> >
> > A peer-reviewed published paper with its references:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> With respect to the memory disruption for events surrounding the procedure,
> as I stated in my post, there is little (if any) evidence of cell loss with
> ECT but there is substantial evidence of alterations in neuronal connections
> and electrophysiological responses when examined in animal models.  The
> alteration of neuronal function can be responsible for memory disruption in
************************************************************
> the absence of cell death.  Our lab has been studying the anatomical and
> physiological effects of seizures (including electroconvulsive shock) on the
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> structural brain damage. METHOD: The literature review covered the following
> areas: cognitive side effects, structural brain imaging, autopsies of
patients
> who had received ECT, post-mortem studies of epileptic subjects, animal
studies
> of electroconvulsive shock (ECS) and epilepsy, and the neuropathological
effects
> of the passage of electricity, heat generation, and blood-brain barrier
> disruption. RESULTS: ECT-induced cognitive deficits are transient, although
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> autopsy case reports from the unmodified ECT era reported cerebrovascular
> lesions that were due to agonal changes or undiagnosed disease. In animal
ECS
> studies that used a stimulus intensity and frequency comparable to human
ECT, no
> neuronal loss was seen when appropriate control animals, blind ratings, and
> perfusion fixation techniques were employed. Controlled studies using
> quantitative cell counts have failed to show neuronal loss even after
prolonged
> courses of ECS. Several well-controlled studies have demonstrated that
neuronal
> loss occurs only after 1.5 to 2 hours of continuous seizure activity in
> primates, and adequate muscle paralysis and oxygenation further delay these
> changes. These conditions are not approached during ECT. Other findings
indicate
> that the passage of electricity, thermal effects, and the transient
disruption
> of the blood-brain barrier during ECS do not result in structural brain
damage.
> CONCLUSIONS: There is no credible evidence that ECT causes structural brain
> damage.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> treatments for major depressive disorder but has also been associated with
> cognitive deficits possibly reflecting brain damage. The aim of this study
was
> therefore to evaluate whether ECT induces cerebral damage as reflected by
> different biochemical measures. The concentrations in the cerebrospinal
fluid
> (CSF) of three established markers of neuronal/glial degeneration, tau
protein
> (tau), neurofilament (NFL) and S-100 beta protein, were determined in nine
> patients who fulfilled DSM-IV criteria for major depression. CSF samples
were
> collected before and after a course of six ECT sessions.

The CSF/serum (S)
> albumin ratio reflecting potential blood-brain barrier (BBB) dysfunction was
> also determined at these time points. The treatment was clinically
successful
> with a significant decline of depressive symptoms in all patients as
assessed by
> the Montgomery-Asberg Rating Scale for Depression. Several patients had
signs of
> BBB dysfunction and/or neuronal damage before the start of treatment.
Levels of
> CSF-tau, CSF-NFL and CSF-S-100 beta levels were not significantly changed by
> ECT. Also the CSF/S albumin ratio was found to be unchanged after the
course of
> ECT. In conclusion, no biochemical evidence of neuronal/glial damage or BBB
> dysfunction could be demonstrated following a therapeutic course of ECT.

********G. *** Sounds good to Me !! :-<   But except for a couple of
comments about 'neuronal damage' within the text, I'm not sure what it does
for people looking for 'support' on an Epilepsy Group.  Heck I can't
remember the Last time I had my CSF-tau levels checked.   But then that's
from the Right T.Lobe damage, and not so much from any BBB dysfunction.   /

> > >There is very little evidence that it causes brain damage.  In fact,
there
> > >is so little evidence that it is widely believed NOT to cause brain
damage.

> > Then how do you explain the dementia (mainly loss of memory) which
> > consistently occurs after ECT and sometimes persists indefinitely?
> >
> > A peer-reviewed published paper with its references:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> > Shock Treatment, Brain Damage, and
> >   Memory Loss: A Neurological Perspective
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >      electroconvulsive therapy in experimental animals and humans.
> >      Although findings of petechial hemorrhage. gliosis. and neuronal
loss
> >      were well established in the decade following the introduction of
> >      ECT. they have been generally ignored since then. ECT produces
> >      characteristic EEG changes and severe retrograde amnesia. as well
as
> >      other more subtle effects on memory and learning. The author
> >      concludes that ECT results in brain disease and questions whether
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >      One of the results of the whole thing is that I have no memory of
> >      what happened in the year to year and a half prior to my shock
*****************************************************
> >      treatments. The doctor assured me that it was going to come back
and
> >      it never has. I don't remember a bloody thing. I couldn't even find
******************************************************
> >      my way around the town I lived in for three years. If I walked into
a
> >      building I didn't even know where I was. I could barely find my way
> >      around my own house. I could sew and knit before. but afterward I
********************************************************
> >      could no more comprehend a pattern to sew than the man in the
> > moon.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> > brain damage, and greater retrograde amnesia than is seen in any other
> > form of head injury.
///////////////
> >                    HUMAN BRAIN DAMAGE
> > Let us turn now to the neuropathological findings in humans who died
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> > studies to the growing list and commented, "In all observations of
> > sudden death after electric shock reported so far. petechial
***************************************************
> > hemorrhages, cellular changes and some glial proliferation stand out
***********************************************************
> > prominently. as an almost constant whole."
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> > subarachnoid hemorrhage was found in the upper part of the left motor
> > region...."at the site where an electrode had been applied."(18)
*********************************************************

> > In 1957 Impastato summarized 254 electroshock fatalities. Brain damage
was
> > the leading cause of death in persons under 40 years of age, and nearly
***********************************************************
> > one-fifth of all cerebral deaths were hemorrhagic (19).
**************************************************
> > ////////
> > In 1963, McKegney and associates (21) reported the case of a 23 year
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > i.e.. 130 volts for .3 seconds. Four days later a brain biopsy showed
> > diffuse degeneration of neurons with hyperplasia of astrocytes. The
young
> > man never regained consciousness and at autopsy 2 months later
******************************************************
> > evidence of old hemorrhage was found in the brain. This was the last
detailed
> > report in the English-language literature.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> >
> > The seizure thresholds of the hippocampus and other temporal lobe
***********************************************************
> > structures are the lowest in the brain; considerable interest has
> > centered recently around "kindling, ' or seizure induction by
> > subthreshold stimulation of these areas in animals (39). The induction
of
> > a permanent epileptic disorder following ECT in humans was first
reported
> > in 1942 and other reports followed (40).
> >
> >                           MEMORY LOSS
> > ECT is a common cause of severe retrograde amnesia, i.e.. destruction of
> > memories of events prior to an injury. The potency of ECT as an amnestic
> > exceeds that of severe closed head injury with coma. It is surpassed
*******************************************************
> > only by prolonged deficiency of thiamine pyrophosphate. bilateral
temporal
> > lobectomy, and the accelerated dementias, such as Alzheimer's.
> >
> > After ECT it takes 5 to 10 minutes just to remember who you are. where
you
*************************************************************
> > are. and what day it is. In the first weeks after a full course,
> > retrograde and, to a lesser extent, anterograde amnesia are evident to
the
> > casual observer. But as time passes compensation occurs. As in other
forms
> > of brain injury. the subject is often oblivious to the residual
> > deficit.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> >
> > The effect of ECT on memory was common knowledge within a few years of
its introduction.
///////////
Some doctors dismissed these sequelae as trivial or transient, although one
psychiatrist remarked that
> > psychotherapy was useless in patients undergoing ECT because they
couldn't
> > remember "'either the analyst or the content of the analytic sessions
from
> > one day to the next.'' (46).
> >
> > Numerous such case reports finally led to a definitive study of the
> > effects of ECT on memory by Irving Janis in 1950 (47). He found that
> > all 19 subjects in a controlled prospective investigation had
************************************************
> > significant memory loss 4 weeks after ECT, compared to negligible
******************************************************
> > losses among control subjects. He also noted that these losses may
******************************
> > involve events of early childhood dating back 20 to 40 years, with the
> > more recently en- coded memories being the most vulnerable. Patient E.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > 10 shocks if she had ever taken thyroid she responded: "I don't think
> > so."

////////////// Inglis found in 1970 (51) that the effects of unilateral ECT
were comparable to those of
> > right and left temporal lobectomy, with identical impairment of memory
and learning.

> > Recently there has been a good deal of human experimentation in a
> > futile effort to find electrode placements that eliminate amnesia. As
the
> > use of ECT has shifted from state hospitals to private practice, the
> > literature has focused more and more on memory loss.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >
> > In regard to more general intellectual ability, a study in 1973 (54)
******************************************************
> > showed that the performance on the Bender Gestalt perceptual motor
> > test of 20 institutionalized subjects who had received 50 or more ECT
> > treatments 10 to 15 years before testing was significantly impaired
*******************************************************
> > compared to the performance of 20 carefully matched control subjects who
> > had not received ECT. The authors inferred that ECT had caused
********************
> > permanent be damage.
************************
> >///////////
> >                            CONCLUSIONS
> > From a neurological point of view ECT is a method of producing amnesia
by
> > selectively damaging the temporal lobes and the structures within them.
**************************************
> > When it was first introduced it was only one of several methods of
> > producing brain damage employed in psychiatry, including insulin coma
> > (1927)* camphor and Pentylenetetrazol (Metrazol) injections (1933).
//////////////, ********it is the only such method from ***that era still
> > used on a large scale. It is highly unlikely that ECT, if critically
> > examined, would be found acceptable by today's standards of safety.
*********************************************************

> > From a neurological point of view ECT produces form of brain disease.

> > Many psychiatrists are unaware that ECT causes brain damage and memory
> > loss because numerous authorities and a leading psychiatric textbook
(58)
**************************
> > deny these facts.
*****************

> > Others, who know of its effects argue that the interruption of
> > unpleasant states of mind is worth the damage.   Some are beginning to
*************************** :-o *********

> > give the client a truly informed choice, although state laws still
> > allow ECT to be imposed if the doctor feels that ''good cause'' exists.
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> > physician.
> > ========================================
turbinado - 21 Apr 2004 20:44 GMT
I don't think anyone was suggesting it as a treatment for epilepsy. TIMMCO
was referring to the original idea of EST having been inspired by the
supposed beneficial effects of epileptic seizures.

As for how much brain damage it causes, etc., that's not relevant to the
original post. TIMMCO was looking for information on the origins of the
therapy, not its side effects.

The only thing I can add to this is to attest that epilepsy does not provide
immunity from depression. In fact, depression is one of the aftereffects of
a major seizure for me.

>   The paper you listed, while more 'up to date' makes no mention of Epilepsy
> or Seizure disorders, although it makes a passing reference to treatment of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> was no reference on earlier stuff except for whether damage did or did not
> occur in any of the Temporal Lobes.

(snip)
gaross - 20 Apr 2004 14:36 GMT
  Thank you for Clarifying that for us...  I enjoy having a Real Medical
Opinion on some of these (now)  Fringe treatments that were once thought to
be valid 'cures' for some of our conditions.
  I had thought that some of those <<Older Treatments>> had been largely
discredited some decades ago, but didn't know (myself) the actual period
when it might have happened., since that wasn't an area I knew about.
 And I didn't have szr. onset until after Encephalitis as 'late onset' (age
35) with seizures not starting until age 48.  That type of treatment would
not have been tried at 'phase 1 (1979)' nor have reversed anything at 'phase
2' in 1993 for me.

  Thanks again for your input.    Gordon.

> >It occurred to me that the inspiration for the development for Electro-Shock
> >Therapy (EST) derived from observations of the after effects of Seizures -
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> physician.
> ========================================
M - 21 Apr 2004 00:18 GMT
>   Thank you for Clarifying that for us...  I enjoy having a Real Medical
>Opinion on some of these (now)  Fringe treatments that were once thought to
>be valid 'cures' for some of our conditions.
>   I had thought that some of those <<Older Treatments>> had been largely
>discredited some decades ago, but didn't know (myself) the actual period
>when it might have happened., since that wasn't an area I knew about.

Please find enclosed a post I made to another group some time ago
concerning my new GP:

>The following exchange took place during an appointment with my new GP
>(I have moved jobs, and sadly left my previous clinic behind)
>yesterday. I had asked to reduce the dosage of Tegretol because of the
>usual side effects:

>"I see there's also an antidepressant listed here. What's that for?"

><shrug> "Epilepsy and depression often go hand in hand"

>"I don't know whether you've ever heard about ECT - electro-convulsive
>therapy, when they give people convulsions? It cures their depression.
>So having seizures is actually good for depression."

>I couldn't resist the obvious sarcy answer:

>"Fine, so I'll stop the meds, go into Status and I can get rid of the
>anti-depressants as well."

>Somehow I think this new GP is going to be a bit of a problem.

It seems that not all GPs are aware that ECT is not in common use any
more. I've not been back to see him and am managing my own med reduction
scheme. I am now down to 200mg Tegretol from an initial 1200, with no
ill effects. Going down to 150 at end of month, aiming for zero by end
of July, and am looking forward to remembering where I put my front door
keys :)

Signature

Malcolm    

gaross - 21 Apr 2004 00:42 GMT
> >   Thank you for Clarifying that for us...  I enjoy having a Real Medical
> >Opinion on some of these (now)  Fringe treatments that were once thought to
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> --
> Malcolm

G:   So you're really planning to move all the way to Zero Tegretol? and not
just 20-30% of it?  What does (shrug) your Doctor, or Chemist think of
Completely removing it?   I could see a case (*with my Dr.) of Reducing
mine, if I were at a Really High dose, or if I were having **side effects,
to try reduce the latter but keep control.
  But I'm Not having any side effects, nor auras or 'surprise seizures'
like I had when first diagnosed 1993-7.   I almost Never get the 'brain fog'
someone talked about,  maybe once or twice a month, and for under an hour
most times (as the weather changes -- seems to be when Low Air pressure zone
arrives),  then the fog clears as the rain starts. :-<

   I've never really considered Removing the med. levels that are giving me
full control now.   As someone once said- "If mine (it's) not broken, why
fix it?"    I'm at a Lower level than you are, and with the 2 meds. (only
400mg of Tegretol CR), I haven't had any Dental or other negatives that
would give me reason to tinker with anything.
  I just wondered if you didn't find it 'scary' to be reducing the level
(even as apparently Slowly as my Dr. did when we removed *my Night Dose to
replace it with the Frisium (Clobazam) about 8 years ago).   I still use the
Tegretol in the AM with Frisium, and haven't needed any dose changes since
about 1995/6.    G.R.

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