Well, Liz & Allan,
I suppose I've given this thread more than enough time to get some
responses to my query, but I guess you're it!
While I very much appreciate your response, unfortunately a sample
of one does not a statistic make. :-(
However, I did say in my original post that I would explain the
reason for my question after any and all responses had been received,
so here it is:
I have severe chronic depression. I've had it since I was a kid. At
15, I "attempted to attempt" to kill myself. What that boils down to
is that after a (or maybe I should say "yet another") bitter argument
with my parents (mostly my father), I ran upstairs to my bedroom,
grabbed my shotgun, went to my dresser and...my shells weren't there.
And they were nowhere to be found. I've been suicide-level depressed
many times since but as you can see, I'm still here. I'm not currently
suicidal and haven't been for about a year (thanks to SSRI's) but
always, always far enough down that I pretty much have to look up to
see bottom, as they say.
Now I'm not ordering up for a pity-party here, please don't think I
am. The only reason for my sob story is to point up the depth of my
depression, it's egregious persistance, and its pertinance to my
question.
About a year and a half ago, I was so far over the edge that I would
have done ANYTHING to "make it all go away". One option that was
suggested to me is what is known as "Electro Convulsive Therapy" or
ECT ("shock treatment" in the vernacular).
As I investigated the procedure, I even received a few educational
"shocks" along the way:
For one thing doctors have no idea how it works, only that it does
seem to work well in, depending on who's calculating the numbers, from
70-90% of deeply depressed individuals.
Of course that single paragraph is wrought with subjective optimism.
For instance, just how "well" does something that "works well" work?
What's the depressive alleviation bell curve look like? As it turns
out, the curve is skewed pretty sharply to the left. That means if you
are only mildly depressed, it won't do much of anything (vis a vis
alleviation of symptoms, that is) The worse off you are, the better it
seems to work until you get to that curious 10-30% group on the right
where the curve suddenly drops off. IOW, if you aren't depressed
enough, or you're TOO depressed, you are SOL!
There are other statistical arguments that can be raised over the
treatment's success (or at least the claims thereto) but knowing me,
I've already gone into yawning territory for most of you folks, so
I'll just cut to the chase now...
The Ace Kicker is this, kids: In a nutshell, the ECT procedure is to
have a technician adjust the level of an electrical current across
your frontal lobe until you experience a GRAN MAL SEIZURE!
And so it has bedeviled me ever since that if doctors purposely
induce periodic (every couple of weeks to every couple of months for a
period of about 6 months to 2 or 3 years) Gran Mal seizures to
alleviate deep depression, then I've wondered if the population of
"natural" Gran Mal sufferrers might have a lower rate of deep and/or
chronic depression.
And thus, my question.... ;-)
But not to worry, I always have another question. Stay tuned....
Thanks again for your response,
Cheers,
Mike
Bell Atlantic, huh? You must be within about 3 states of me, S or
SW. I live in Erial, NJ. Where are you?
If you answer me, I PROMISE not to go into a diatribe about how Bell,
Inc, a wonderfully efficient legal monopoly in this country was blown
to smithereens over an antitrust suit brought by Litton Industries.
Yeah, THAT Litton, the one in your kitchen.... ;-)
Klenow - 09 Jan 2004 06:58 GMT
> > The Ace Kicker is this, kids: In a nutshell, the ECT procedure is to
> have a technician adjust the level of an electrical current across
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> And thus, my question.... ;-)
I'm sorry that I can't help you with your question directly, but I thought
I'd throw a few more things into the mix anyway.
As I understand it, they preferentially apply the current across one
hemisphere or the other and not the frontal lobe anymore. This apparently
reduces the incidence of memory and other side effects.
Patients are anaesthetized and given a muscle relaxant as well as oxygen
such that when the seizure is occurring there is only a mild twitching of
the extremities or fingers etc.
As far as I know, the rate of depression in epileptics is much higher than
the general population and although I don't know how this breaks down into
seizure types etc., I'd suspect it's highest in those with complex partial
epilepsy. One thing you might keep in mind though is that with ECT you're
triggering a generalized (whole brain) seizure in a non-epileptic brain,
while in those with epilepsy a seizure is being triggered in a brain that
has a lowered seizure threshold for some reason. The causes of depression
may be different in the epileptic brain and therefore not respond in the
same way to the spontaneous internally-evoked seizure.
Another interesting thing to note is that so far, all antidepressant drugs
tested so far, as well as ECT will increase the basal rate of the production
of new brain cells (neurogenesis) in the hippocampus (a major part of the
temporal lobe in humans) in animal models. The hottest theory of depression
right now is that this increase in neurogenesis may somehow be responsible
for the actions of antidepressant therapies. The developmental time of
these new neurons is about the same as the time it takes for SSRIs to have
their effect. The hippocampus is known to regulate the
hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis which is believed to be altered in
depression. Serotonin is a powerful regulator of the rate of neurogenesis
in the hippocampus and the serotonergic neurons seem to preferentially
terminate right where the neurogenesis is going on. A recent study used
directed radiation in mice to stop neurogenesis in the hippocampus and found
that SSRIs no longer had their effect in mice.
Anyway, it's an interesting and exciting theory of antidepressant action but
time will tell if neurogenesis is really involved. Another interesting
point is that seizures in every epilepsy animal model studied so far has
been found to greatly increase hippocampal neurogenesis. Nobody knows what
this means or what effect this will have on brain function.
> But not to worry, I always have another question. Stay tuned....
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Yeah, THAT Litton, the one in your kitchen.... ;-)
Daz_n_Pat - 09 Jan 2004 10:09 GMT
> As far as I know, the rate of depression in epileptics is much higher than
> the general population and although I don't know how this breaks down into
> seizure types etc., I'd suspect it's highest in those with complex partial
> epilepsy.
Hi,
I don't know how others are affected, but I've had complex partial seizures
since I was 8 years old. 29 years ago. I've never suffered from depression
though.
But having said that, the other day I cried for about 20 minutes because I
couldn't remember the name of the man who I hit with my car (when I used to
drive - stupidly thinking I had enough seizure warning to stop before each
seizure. Obviously I've now woken up to the fact that epileptics DO NOT
DRIVE). Don't know if you'd class that as depression, but apart from that
I've never suffered from it.
Cheers
Darryl.
TVA12082208 - 18 Jan 2004 13:45 GMT
Hi Mike,
you might want to read the info in the thread of pyridoxine
Best to you!
Katharina