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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Epilepsy / November 2003

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Just Tom - 12 Jul 2003 12:09 GMT
I've got a four year old Basset Hound (Bert) who seems to know when I
am having a problem, be it a panic attack or TC. This guy will be
right snug next to me at the first signs. It's almost like he senses
it. If Dawn, my wife, is next to me, Bert will do all he can to get
between us and rest his head on my lap. He'll stay there until I am
okay, but he tends to follow me around. My nurse dog. Forget about
Rufus the older one, he barely lifts his head off the floor when EMTs
show up!

Does anyone else have a pet act like this?

Vertically Yours,
T

PS Triva Question: Who is the only transvestite to star in a TV show?
gaross - 12 Jul 2003 13:45 GMT
 You might find some interesting stuff, if you try a Google or ?? Search on
Seizure Alert and Dogs,  or Seizure-alert dogs, or Dogs and Health support.
EFA dot Org might have a topic link.   I saw a talk 3 years ago in Toronto,
by a woman who Trains those dogs.  She listed several breeds, but said that
most are sensitive to their owner's 'Normal' vs. 'Pre-seizure Behaviours'..
One she trained if the woman was having a szr. at home it would wait by her
about 3-4 minutes, and if she didn't start to regain consciousness, it would
run and 'Bonk' an Alarm Button 2 feet up the wall with its Nose!!   That
would summon the Building Super. or an Ambulance depending how it was hooked
up.
     Several of the others would guide the owner away from Traffic and
Danger, several minutes (3-10!) Ahead of a seizure Onset.    In some States
they have changed the laws to allow seizure-alert dogs to be brought inside
Shopping etc. Malls, like a seeing-eye dog (they usually have to wear a kind
of 'dorky' vest that says Seizure Alert on the side --> "Hey everyone, I'm
not Blind, I might have a Seizure at anytime.   And I ran out of Barbie
Clothes so I make my Terrier, here, wear this dumb little Vest like he has a
chill...  But I *do get Preferred seating at Restaurants and Musical
Events... )"

   At the Demo the lady gave, the Dogs she had with her were Pretty
**Impressive at how they protected their Masters, and were able to react to
guide her away from her simulated danger before she got to the lie down
stage of the Seizure..    Now you just have to teach him how to Get a Beer
when you recover!!  (Too bad I can't drink beer, but it was the thought that
counted.)   G.R.

> I've got a four year old Basset Hound (Bert) who seems to know when I
> am having a problem, be it a panic attack or TC. This guy will be
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> PS Triva Question: Who is the only transvestite to star in a TV show?
LP - 12 Jul 2003 14:28 GMT
>I've got a four year old Basset Hound (Bert) who seems to know when I
>am having a problem, be it a panic attack or TC. This guy will be
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Does anyone else have a pet act like this?

The first question you should ask is, do YOU have a pet like that?

I would recommend that you stop by your local library and read chapter
seven of this book:
Unweaving the Rainbow:
Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder
by Richard Dawkins
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0618056734

In chapter seven of this book, Richard Dawkins gives an easy to
understand explanation of the phenomena you describe above.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, refer to the articles at the following links.

confirmation bias
Confirmation bias refers to a type of selective thinking whereby one
tends to notice and to look for what confirms one's beliefs, and to
ignore, not look for, or undervalue the relevance of what contradicts
one's beliefs.
http://skepdic.com/confirmbias.html

selective thinking
Selective thinking is the process whereby one selects out favorable
evidence for remembrance and focus, while ignoring unfavorable
evidence for a belief
http://skepdic.com/selectiv.html

wishful thinking
Wishful thinking is interpreting facts, reports, events, perceptions,
etc., according to what one would like to be the case rather than
according to the actual evidence
http://skepdic.com/wishfulthinking.html
Just Tom - 13 Jul 2003 09:40 GMT
>>I've got a four year old Basset Hound (Bert) who seems to know when I
>>am having a problem, be it a panic attack or TC. This guy will be
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>The first question you should ask is, do YOU have a pet like that?

No, no Answer MY question first

Triva Question: Who is the only transvestite to star in a TV show?

>I would recommend ...... Appetite for Wonder
>by Richard Dawkins

I called Stephen Hawkings house, the phone rang, a voice answered:
"This     is      Stephen    Hawkings"
I was gonna leave a message, a voice said:
No,         This       IS        Stephen      Hawkings"

Oh wait a sec., that said Dick Dawkins, never mind.

I know, I'm a sick SOB
LP - 14 Jul 2003 04:32 GMT
>>>I've got a four year old Basset Hound (Bert) who seems to know when I
>>>am having a problem, be it a panic attack or TC. This guy will be
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>Triva Question: Who is the only transvestite to star in a TV show?

Question one.

Yes, I have a pet like that.
He does all of the things you mention.
The odd thing is, I don't have epilepsy, his behavior seems to be
random. If I had epilepsy, I very well might have thought there was
some connection between his behavior, and the onset of a seizure.
As demonstrated in chapter 7 of Richard Dawkins book, this is a VERY
easy mistake to make.

Question two

I think there are more than one, but one example is Barry Humphries
(Dame Edna).
Just Tom - 15 Jul 2003 11:05 GMT
Why is it that you posted almost verbatim the same post on 3-9-03?
At that time you initiated the thread on 2-7-03 entitled
"Are "seizure dogs" for real? "

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=LP+%28whirl_pool%4
0nospam.hotmail.com%29&btnG=Google+Search&meta=group%3Dalt.support.epilepsy


** Why are you posting to a Support Group for people with and
caregivers of people with Epilepsy?

My dog, who BTW is also a beagle, does that same thing.
He does it at seemingly random times during the day.
I am sure that if I tried hard enough, I could find something that I
could associate his behavior with. Since I do not have epilepsy, I
                                  *****************************
will have to find something else.

Please check out the following links. You will find them very useful
in determining whether you are making a VERY common error regarding
your conclusion that dogs can predict epileptic seizures.
They are also very useful for a number of other reasons.

------------------------------
[ I clipped off the links you referenced at that time. I'll not be
an accomplice for your "mentor". It WAS curious that you did not
mention the same links this time around. Do they no longer pertain
to your case at hand? I RETRACT THE QUESTION! (It'll only encourage them)

"Go, Sir and never darken my towels again" - Groucho Marx, "Duck Soup"

Oh, that reminds me, I'll print out your thread and tape it in front of me,
so that I remember to feed my ducks.    QUACK, QUACK    [Duck Soup, Get It?]

It's 6AM and bored, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered!

Have a wonderful day and stay vertical,
Unless you have a problem with THAT too
LP - 15 Jul 2003 13:50 GMT
>Why is it that you posted almost verbatim the same post on 3-9-03?
>At that time you initiated the thread on 2-7-03 entitled
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>** Why are you posting to a Support Group for people with and
>caregivers of people with Epilepsy?

 There are few problems in society that would not benefit from a
increase in critical thinking skills. The symptoms exhibited by a lack
of critical thinking skills are sometimes easily recognizable, other
times they are not. The program I saw last February on "seizure dogs",
was one of those cases where the lack of critical thinking skill was
readily recognizable.
Information on how to learn these skills is easily accessible, but
few are willing to excerpt the effort required to learn them. Or, as
is more often the case, few are willing to give up their pet delusions
that are dependent on the lack of these skills.

There are those who DO want to know the truth, regardless of where it
leads. It is for these people I share these links that I have found so
useful.

How Thinking Goes Wrong
Twenty-five Fallacies That Lead Us
to Believe Weird Things
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/sherm3.htm

A Field Guide to Critical Thinking
James Lett
http://www.csicop.org/si/9012/critical-thinking.html

CARL SAGAN'S BALONEY DETECTION KIT
http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/tps-seti/baloney.html

Baloney Detection
How to draw boundaries between science and pseudoscience
By MICHAEL SHERMER
http://homepages.wmich.edu/%7Ekorista/baloney.html

The James Randi Educational Foundation
http://www.randi.org/

Fallacy Tutorial
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Skeptic's Dictionary
A Collection of Strange Beliefs, Amusing Deceptions, and Dangerous
Delusions  
http://skepdic.com/

>My dog, who BTW is also a beagle, does that same thing.
>He does it at seemingly random times during the day.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>mention the same links this time around. Do they no longer pertain
>to your case at hand? I RETRACT THE QUESTION! (It'll only encourage them)

Are you opposed to the learning of critical thinking skills?
Any well formulated articles on critical thinking will suffice.
The specific sources are unimportant. If you want to supply your own
sources for learning critical thinking skills, feel free to do so.

>"Go, Sir and never darken my towels again" - Groucho Marx, "Duck Soup"
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Have a wonderful day and stay vertical,
>Unless you have a problem with THAT too
gaross - 15 Jul 2003 15:13 GMT
It's very generous of you to 'show us the light' and take time to explain
how a better world should work and how you'll fix it (if elected).
Politicians and Phishers do that all the time.

  But you said you Don't have EPILEPSY.  Why would you register on an
Epilepsy Support Group and not have anything Positive to contribute except
running around looking up contra-indicated junk?
   I listed personal experiences from a talk I went to on Seizure Alert
Dogs (at an Epilepsy Convention that Toronto runs each Fall) and how they
were helping people living near Toronto to go shopping etc. without fear of
waking up in Emerg, AGAIN.
  As a Support group, we don't spend 2-3 hours assembling and constructing
long essays then vetting them by peer reviews, except by OTHERS who have
EPILEPSY.  It is a chat forum designed for people diagnosed or Newly
diagnosed with Seizures.

I take medications to control Epilepsy--  most of us do here in some form.
YOU Don't.

I bet you've never DONE that--> Awoken in EMERG --> Again..  Many of us
have.

  If you had been around long, you'd know I have damage to my Right
Temporal Lobe that affects new learning and recall, it doesn't affect IQ
*or* 'critical thinking'.
  Right T.Lobe damage exhibits as short to medium-term Memory disruptions
(those would have been 1993-7 when my seizures were active and not
controlled). Longer term memory is not affected.

 I think you're in the WAY.    If you don't have Epilepsy, why not find
another Group to phish  (that wasn't a Question).

  If any of the 5-6 Unsolicited Providers I forward headers to each
morning, before I open this group, link back to a DNS address range, the
Internet Provider finds they've received a Black Hat  ISP Designation, if
other groups who were being bothered had logged complaints too ... ISPs who
get that designation may as well shut out the lights + go home- Corporations
block those address ranges, Permanently.  G./

> >Why is it that you posted almost verbatim the same post on 3-9-03?
> >At that time you initiated the thread on 2-7-03 entitled
> >"Are "seizure dogs" for real? "
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=LP+%28whirl_pool%4
0nospam.hotmail.com%29&btnG=Google+Search&meta=group%3Dalt.support.epil
epsy

> >** Why are you posting to a Support Group for people with and
> >caregivers of people with Epilepsy?

***** G:   BELOW, Your Arrogance precedes you. /

>   There are few problems in society that would not benefit from a
> increase in critical thinking skills. The symptoms exhibited by a lack
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
> >Have a wonderful day and stay vertical,
> >Unless you have a problem with THAT too
******************
 G:      Check the Bridges.  Grandma's house can't be much further..
*****************************************************************
LP - 15 Jul 2003 16:49 GMT
>It's very generous of you to 'show us the light' and take time to explain
>how a better world should work and how you'll fix it (if elected).
>Politicians and Phishers do that all the time.

Are you saying that you believe people should not learn critical
thinking skills?

>   But you said you Don't have EPILEPSY.  Why would you register on an
>Epilepsy Support Group and not have anything Positive to contribute except
>running around looking up contra-indicated junk?

I post to many different newsgroups individually addressing subjects
that interest me. Psuedoscience and medical fraud are subjects that
interest me, and I address them where I find them.

Recent posts by me in diet newsgroups have addressed misleading diet
pill commercials.

Recent post by me in the astronomy newsgroups have addressed the
fallacious claims of astrologers.

If there are false statements made about the abilities of "seizure
dogs", then alt.support.epilepsy is one place to address it.

Why you would not want these claims examined scientifically is
something that I do not understand.

>    I listed personal experiences from a talk I went to on Seizure Alert
>Dogs (at an Epilepsy Convention that Toronto runs each Fall) and how they
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Temporal Lobe that affects new learning and recall, it doesn't affect IQ
>*or* 'critical thinking'.

It may effect your learning of new things, but it doesn't prevent it.
We are not born with critical thinking skills, they are learned. If it
is something you prefer not to learn more about, then the links I
posted are not for you.

The links I have posted are for those who understand that it is not in
their best interest to base their decisions on erroneous data or
fallacious reasoning.

Properly exercised, critical thinking skills can help in the discovery
of the truth. This applies to any claim, and in any subject.

>   Right T.Lobe damage exhibits as short to medium-term Memory disruptions
>(those would have been 1993-7 when my seizures were active and not
>controlled). Longer term memory is not affected.
>
>  I think you're in the WAY.  

I am in the way only to those who are trying to spread false
information. I do not believe that you purposely want to spread false
information. I think that you really believe the evidence strongly
supports the abilities claimed for "seizure dogs".  I also believe
that so long as you refuse to critically examine the evidence, you
will never discover the truth about the unreliable nature of that
evidence.
The links I have posted explain why that evidence is unreliable.
The links make no statements about whether "seizure dogs" can do the
things that have been claimed. They only serve as tools to enable one
to overcome the very common mistakes of judgement made by those
without these tools, mistakes that were so graphically demonstrated in
the TV program on "seizure dogs" that prompted these posts.  These
tools are widely available, but they are far from widely used. I am
hoping that will change.

>> How Thinking Goes Wrong
>> Twenty-five Fallacies That Lead Us
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>> >could associate his behavior with. Since I do not have epilepsy, I
>> >will have to find something else.
Kimberly - 21 Jul 2003 18:11 GMT
Hi Tom,

To answer the question you originally posted, I do not have a pet like
that...but...I used to work at a center for brain injured children.
One particularly bad case was of a 15 y.o. girl who had "pattern
seizures".  Her seizures were triggered by specific patterns -
checkerboard tiles, stripes, plaids, etc.  The seizures would cause
her to go into an immediate absence, as though she was "stuck" on the
pattern.  For example, ceiling tiles would cause her to get "stuck"
with her head cocked up at the ceiling.  If she did not quickly break
this visual contact, she would go into a full blown GTC.  While
working with her we would notice her getting "stuck" and procede to
quickly cover her eyes.  When her dog was with her, she would "sense"
her getting "stuck" and bump her enough to break the contact.  Her dog
was a certified trained seizure dog, though I don't know through which
facility.

Hello LP,

Though I whole-heartedly agree that the scientific method should be
applied to all types of treatment options before marketing to the
general public, I do not believe that Tom started this thread with the
intent of discussing that topic.  Perhaps you can start another thread
on the topic of debunking what, in your opinion, is pop science
seizure rx as Tom was merely asking if others who experience seizures
have noticed this in their pets, not whether there has been any
statistical significance to prove the efficacy of seizure dogs.

Take care,

Kimberly
LP - 22 Jul 2003 06:35 GMT
>Hi Tom,
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>have noticed this in their pets, not whether there has been any
>statistical significance to prove the efficacy of seizure dogs.

 And I pointed out that I noticed that behavior in my own dog, and
that I eventually figured out that it didn't seem to be linked to
anything.

 In my first response, I merely suggested that he might want to take
another look at the possibility that he may have fooled himself when
he concluded that his dog could predict his seizures. Scientist have
shown that this type of error in judgment is very common and very
difficult to analyze objectively. I then offered some resources that
describe some of the reasons why people are so easily mislead when
doing this kind of subjective self validation in a non controlled
environment.

 Just now, as I started writing this message about "seizure dogs", my
beagle came up and sat beside me and started staring at me. It was as
if he knew what I was writing about. If I was so inclined, I might
believe that he somehow knows that I am writing about dogs, and that
is why he came over to me.  I might also forget the fact that 20
minutes ago, I was writing about astronomy, and my dog came up and did
the same thing. One tends to ignore those things that don't support
their beliefs, and pay special attention to those things that do seem
to support them. Scientists, while having learned the importance of
looking at things objectively, are unable to do this without help.
That is why double blind studies are required.
 
 In the case you describe above, you are not suggesting that the dog
had some sixth sense.  You are just giving an example of a dog being
very keen to his owners behaviors. This is not that extraordinary of a
claim, and I don't think it would be unreasonable to believe that it
actually happened.
 However, when it is suggested that dogs possess powers akin to ESP,
powers that are beyond anything known to science, that is when you
should step back and ask yourself whether you should require more
substantial evidence. After all, you would be suggesting an
explanation that would win you the Nobel prize if you could prove it.

 The links I posted were not posted just to rain on his parade. The
books and links I posted are valuable tools that can also be used to
help someone determine if a "new miracle cure", can be trusted.
People who are seriously ill will sometimes become very frustrated
with medical science's inability to help them. They will sometime seek
out alternative medicines that could possibly be very dangerous to
them. These people could benefit greatly by learning critical thinking
skills. There is a lot of valuable information in the links I posted,
and in the books that I recommended.  Information that has saved
peoples lives. That is why I use every opportunity I can to bring up
the subject.
Kimberly - 22 Jul 2003 18:37 GMT
Hi LP,

Very well put.  I have to add that your earlier posts came across as
quite condescending (though your last one did not).

Is everyone searching for the truth?  No.  Is it a bad thing?  For me,
I want to know the truth.  However, I do not come here for medical
advice, I leave that up to my epi.  I come here for support and ideas.
I then go to my nearest medical library, read journal articles and
take them to my doctor.  I'm not the only one, and most would know not
to change their routine because someone posted "I stopped my meds
because I meditate, you should too".

There's a difference between posting this to an astrological NG and a
support NG.

>   In my first response, I merely suggested that he might want to take
> another look at the possibility that he may have fooled himself when
> he concluded that his dog could predict his seizures. Scientist have
> shown that this type of error in judgment is very common and very
> difficult to analyze objectively.

If John Doe across the way is content thinking that he resolved a
conflict with his dead father through a near death experience, I'm not
going to say - "you are fooling yourself, scientists say it's common -
read these links and know the truth".

Let him be content.  He's been through enough.

The way you posted and the lack of support turned me off to your
information and your ideas.  I embrace science.  Personally, I love
social psychology and discussing the schools of thought and
consciousness...but I wouldn't come here to do it.

I'm merely trying to say that your information would be better
received if it were not delivered in a way that might be perceived as
condescending (regardless of intent - and I don't believe you were
trying to be malicious) - I believe your intent was to be informative.
As I mentioned before, your posts could be a thread topic by itself,
not that it's not worth reading.  That way, those who want the truth
can have it.  Those that don't, won't read it, thus won't take
offense.

Do dogs have ESP?  Do people have ESP?  Hell if I know.  To be
completely honest with you, LP, if dancing naked around a fire on the
full moon of every month *chuckle* would enable me to go off meds and
shrink my thyroid nodules, I'd do it in a heartbeat.  Granted, I'd
want to figure out why it helps...but I'd still do it in the meantime.

Take care,

Kimberly
*Checking the farmer's almanac forecast for Aug 12 to see if a bonfire
is doable - anyone wanna join me? ;)*
Bob - 21 Nov 2003 04:28 GMT
My news server doesn't' have the original post.  It sound like it was
one of those countless whiny mini-manifestos about the idiocy of others.

Simply put, THERE ARE DOGS that can "predict" seizures. It is not ESP,
it is b/c their sense of smell allows them to detect rapid fluctuations
in sweat, etc (various chemical reactions associated with the onset of
grand mal seizures) Rapid epidermal chemical reactions have been
identified in a variety of different type of seizures. These chemical
reactions often begin BEFORE the actual seizure thus it appears these
dogs are predicting the seizure itself when in actuality they have
identified onset before the actual seizure.

The whole thing is not magical or unexplainable.

Why haven't their been controlled studies about how well these animals
detecting these specific  chemical reactions at the speed necessary ? My
guess is that no one has yet put in the time to identify a group of dogs
to do be able to do this, control for the myriad of other variables,
create an identical control group, etc. I am sure though there are at
least some papers worth reading on this topic if one wanted to do enough
hunting.  I have been involved in the  neurological research community,
specifically at the Brain Research Institute in LA (my area was
specifically dendritic sprouting as a result of neurological damage in
various localized areas of the brain) to know that there is definitely
some work somewhere in this area.

It is important not to assume a conclusion or even a major scientific
theory retains validity only if there has been a controlled scientific
experiment.  No questions Darwin's contribution to science despite his
total disregard for this process.  Also the obvious corollary is not to
expect that there is validity in conclusions from so called controlled
research, b/c of the question of how controlled the experiment truly
was.  In my cases variables that are deemed negligable and are not a
focus for isolation in studies prove to be very important.

My dog does have the capability to detect the onset of a seizure before
I lose consciousness.  I did not teach it to him, I have no idea exactly
how the process works for him, I never expected him to have any useful
skills whatsoever, it just happened. I did help him respond
appropriately before and during the seizure.  He is still working on
this, it is difficult to teach him this for obvious reasons since I am
having a seizure at the moment he needs the most training help.  I have
not tested if he can detect seizures in others w/ a similar diagnosis as
mine; I really don't care so I wouldn't waste my time.

For those who find this topic difficult to believe, they should explore
the idea thoroughly.  Waiting for others to prove the topic via
personally acceptable ccriteria is unfulfilling, it will never be a
substitute for personal education. If everyone did that, where would
research be today?  The most exciting learning and research is that
which opens one's mind to new ideas rather than the droll (but no doubt
necessary) work of just reinforcing old ones.
Bob - 21 Nov 2003 04:40 GMT
where I wrote my cases, I meant to type many cases. Freudian slip ;)

> My news server doesn't' have the original post.  It sound like it was
> one of those countless whiny mini-manifestos about the idiocy of others.
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> which opens one's mind to new ideas rather than the droll (but no doubt
> necessary) work of just reinforcing old ones.
Klenow - 21 Nov 2003 08:30 GMT
Hello,

the rapid changes you talk about might not be that rapid after all.  I
remember seeing a talk by someone a while ago that was looking into changes
that take place hours before a seizure started.  I believe they were called
prodromes although I'm not sure about this since it was a while ago.

There are also labs which are now looking into changes in EEG patterns that
occur before a seizure occurs so that they might be able to develop a device
that can warn people before the seizure starts, kind of like providing them
with their own "aura" so they can prepare themselves.

Also, Darwin didn't disregard the scientific method.  He developed a theory
based on observation, which is what scientists do.  Then future research can
be designed to test specific aspects of the theory to see if it holds up.

> My news server doesn't' have the original post.  It sound like it was
> one of those countless whiny mini-manifestos about the idiocy of others.
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> which opens one's mind to new ideas rather than the droll (but no doubt
> necessary) work of just reinforcing old ones.
Bob - 21 Nov 2003 17:01 GMT
Hello

That is very interesting, but such reactions doesn't invalidate other
rapid changes at the onset of a seizure. It is purely another chemical
released earlier on.  Because one exists doesn't mean the other does not.

Even if this chemical is the only one in question, the release may not
be linear, perhaps more exponential as it approaches the seizure, so
even if this chemical was released hours before, this is the only
chemical in question, it could still be the agent the dogs are noticing.

Now that I think about, if such a measurable agent existed, etc, etc,
the release could be linear, but I really don't think it would be. I
will definitely have to look into this whole thing though.  Thanks very
much for bringing this up.  It's very interesting.  Nevertheless, I
doubt that this is the only agent.

For ex, sweat released before a seizure could easily have a slightly
different pH and hormonal by products than say a person's sweat during
working out.  Even small changes in this way might be noticeable to a
dog, especially as he begins to associate such a change with what he
perceives as a reaction. Or perhaps he is purely noticing elevated sweat.

It would be interesting to see if a guy was working out and sweating
profusely would dogs that normally could detect a seizure not able to do
so.  Even that may purely be the result of the odor masking the
alternative true agent, among a myriad of other thoughts.

I shouldn't marry myself too much to this sweat as the primary agent
thing, it could begin to hinder my perspective on the whole thing I
guess. Problem is I can't remember too much of skin physiology, and so I
focus on the elements that are still salient to me.  It would be very in
seeing a supportable alternative angle; I'd really like to see someone's
fresh perspective.  Not enough work goes into epilepsy IMO

As far as Darwin goes, that was exactly my point :).  Theory by
alternative methodologies often have as much validity as theories based
on controlled research (such as observation which is why I specifically
brought up Darwin).

Whether he respected the scientific method as we define it today is
debatable IMO.  I doubt it held the same place in science in his mind
that it does today in the scientific community in general

.He never attempted to test the theory of evolution by natural selection
himself in controlled research, nor was it clear that he was depending
on future research to validate his ideas, although we might be (I have
doubts about the work done in supporting general evolution theory but
that is a huge topic).

I could be very wrong about Darwin though, as I have not studied his
work in detail.  If anyone knows about this in more detail, please
correct me.  I am not even sure if he just did the evolution part and it
was Mendel that is accredited with natural selection w/ his pea stuff,
or just inheritance, etc.

I don't like to personally to simply all research to eventually
observation.  It really depends on how one thinks of observation in a
scientific context though.  However that's my opinion.

Cheers! great post :)

> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 64 lines]
>>which opens one's mind to new ideas rather than the droll (but no doubt
>>necessary) work of just reinforcing old ones.
Bob - 21 Nov 2003 17:05 GMT
btw I hope my post doesn't give the impression that I am a butthead that
thinks of myself as someone all knowing. sorry if it does; just thinking
out loud.

> Hello
>
[quoted text clipped - 133 lines]
>>> which opens one's mind to new ideas rather than the droll (but no doubt
>>> necessary) work of just reinforcing old ones.
Mary Fisher - 22 Nov 2003 15:17 GMT
> Simply put, THERE ARE DOGS that can "predict" seizures. It is not ESP,
> it is b/c their sense of smell allows them to detect rapid fluctuations
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> this, it is difficult to teach him this for obvious reasons since I am
> having a seizure at the moment he needs the most training help.

Dogs ARE being trained to react to the onset of seizures in their owners,
there's such a unit in Sheffield, England. They use rescue dogs, some of
which have been abused in the past, which suggests that any dog can be so
trained.

They react by forcing the owner to sit or lie down, place their paws at the
side of the head and lick the face until the owner comes round. This makes
sure that the owner doesn't fall and damage him or herself.

The training is based on the dog receiving a reward when the owner recovers,
which means that the seizure itself is linked with a reward.

Mary
Mary Fisher - 22 Nov 2003 15:24 GMT
Look at

http://www.support-dogs.org.uk/content.php?categoryId=17

and

http://www.epilepsyscotland.org.uk/epilepsynews/newsletter_page4.htm

Mary
Mary Fisher - 22 Nov 2003 15:27 GMT
and also at:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/insideldn/insideout/series4/support_dogs_epilepsy.shtml

Mary
 
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