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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Epilepsy / October 2006

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quitting meds

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knm956@gmail.com - 20 Oct 2006 06:02 GMT
Hi all,

I've been going through some changes lately in my medications after
basically having the same thing for about 20 years.  I've been taking
zonisamide for the past couple of months, which is something of an
improvement over carbamazepine/lamotrigine, but has its own problems.
It doesn't make me drowsy directly like the carbamazepine, but it's
causing muscle cramps that keep me from getting more than about five
hours of sleep (and may be something serious in themselves).  But I'm
starting to wonder if it's really worth it.

As a scientist, the lack of experimentation in medical treatment - and
the consequent position of ignorance that we are usually in - is often
shocking to me.  For instance, when I was started on the zonisamide I
was told to ramp it up to 400 mg/day, 100 at a time.  No attempt at
trying lower doses to see if they might work (which, apparently, they
do).  One thing that has always bothered me is that I was put on meds
quickly after my first seizure, so I have no idea what the "natural"
frequency is.  Since I invariably had one after missing a dose of
carbamazepine, I assumed it was often but there was always the nagging
suspicion that they might just be reflex seizures due to the drop in
the drug level.  After having a video EEG and going a week without a
seizure (the one time I wanted one!), that suspicion was pretty much
confirmed.

So, when I go in for an appointment next week to discuss how the
zonisamide is going, unless the muscle thing eases off or there's some
way to counter it, I'm thinking about talking to my doctor about just
dropping meds altogether, at least temporarily.  I'm curious to hear
from other people who have decided to stop taking drugs and their
experiences.  Did you stay off?  Start taking them again?  Have bad
experiences?  One thing I want to do is to find out the "natural
frequency" of seizures.  Obviously, if it turns out that I would be
having them every week or so, that wouldn't be tolerable.  But unless I
really want to drive again (something that could actually be possible
with the zonisamide, though I'm not counting on it by any means), if I
have a seizure every three months or so I think that would be
preferable to the kind of impact that the meds have had on my life.  I
suppose there is always the risk of a status attack, and that's
something to discuss with the dr.  But barring that, it seems like
something that's worth trying.

Anyway, thanks for reading this far, and I'd be interested to hear what
people have to say.  One thing that just occurred to me is about taking
"sub-theraputic" levels of drugs; doses that might not be enough to
totally prevent seizures, but blunt some of the effects without causing
side effects.  When I was doing the video EEG, I was taking 100 mg/day
of Tegretol for the whole time, which was probably something like this.
Is anyone taking doses like that?

Karl
Jim59.R@gmail.com - 20 Oct 2006 11:48 GMT
> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> Karl

I developed very bad leg cramps from Depakote ER, so when I saw your
message, I Googled "zonisamide" + "muscle cramps" and it gave the same
infrequent side effect warning as a  a Google search on "depakote" +
"muscle cramps" did. My neuroligist suggested adding 125m.g. of
chelated magnesium twice a day. It took about three weeks, but the
addition of magnesium really helped quell my muscle cramps. It would be
worth asking your doctor if he or she would think that might be
appropriate for you. I worked that out over the telephone with my
doctor. It was an easy solution to a very painful side effect.

I've been on a bunch of different medications since 1984 and I like to
switch meds every five to ten years because of the un-seen side effects
of the different medications. I'm currently taking Lamictal, but
changing or dropping meds is ALWAYS something you should discuss with
your doctor. Hope everything works out for you.

Jim
partials - 20 Oct 2006 15:05 GMT
>> Hi all,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>  
> Jim

I never realized that it might have something to do with the drugs I was taking,
but I also used to get severe painful cramps in the calf of my leg - right leg
mainly - that would require getting out of bed and standing on my toe to pull it
out and also ones in my hand. The solution that has worked for me is 550 mg
potassium gluconate twice daily.

-
G. - 20 Oct 2006 22:42 GMT
> Hi all,
> I've been going through some changes lately in my medications after
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> hours of sleep (and may be something serious in themselves).  But I'm
> starting to wonder if it's really worth it.
**********************************************
> As a scientist, the lack of experimentation in medical treatment - and
> the consequent position of ignorance that we are usually in - is often
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>  Is anyone taking doses like that?
> Karl

  You should tell the Dr., when you see them, as you might? be coming
off the therapeutic levels during the night, and the cramps or pains
could be result of 'thrashing' ? or restless sleep.   The other 2
respondents had better experience with the current meds. you use.  I
was (luckily) able to use Tegretol CR with a second med.   The 100mg
you were worried about (of Tegretol), is 1/8 what I was on at peak--
now I'm at 400mg.
 The dose  of any med. is set based on *your szr. type, your body
weight and expected metabolism (rate you purge a med.)  so while some
of us could give personal experiences, what might work for one of us
perfectly, can be less so/ to useless for someone else.
  Did you look at http://efa.org or other medications site, or even
speak to your Pharmacist (Chemist) to see if that might be a side
effect needing attention?    Even if you had contacted the Dr. by
phone, they could suggest, e.g. spacing the doses differently or
adjusting some up or down as result of your experience.
   Prompt stopping of several of the meds. (including the Tegretol you
once had), can aggravate seizure control, so any dose changes you did
should be done with assistance of the Doctor.
 (When I reduced 2 Tabs of Tegretol to add a second (newer) pill, the
reduction was done over a period of about 8 weeks with the newer one
started around week 4, and bloodwork (!!) at week 9 or 10.  That
transition went extremely smoothly, with no side effects or seizures,
versus your considering stopping something promptly that could
aggravate things  (***s I put at top? ).   **Some of the meds. if
stopped abruptly, as well as causing above effects, might *then be
unable to be Re-used if you decided later that they were doing some
good for you *after all...   That's why I'd rather have a Doctor or the
Pharmacist comment (for you) on which might be side effects of the
pills and what might be something the Dr. might want to look into.
   Keep us 'posted'  -- lots of people read here, and can benefit from
your experiences.  G./..
knm956@gmail.com - 21 Oct 2006 19:04 GMT
>    You should tell the Dr., when you see them, as you might? be coming
> off the therapeutic levels during the night, and the cramps or pains
> could be result of 'thrashing' ? or restless sleep.

Part of the reason I switched to the zonisamide is because it takes a
very long time to be eliminated (half-life of 3-4 days), so if you miss
a dose you're less likely to have a seizure due to a sudden drop in the
level.  The problem I have right now is in the muscles that run
parallel to the spine, which are hard to "thrash", and I also sometimes
get cramps in places like my hip and the arch of my foot.  So I think
it's something with the workings of the muscles.

> The other 2 respondents had better experience with the current meds. you use.  I
> was (luckily) able to use Tegretol CR with a second med.   The 100mg
> you were worried about (of Tegretol), is 1/8 what I was on at peak--
> now I'm at 400mg.

I don't use them any more, but when I was I was taking 400mg Tegretol
CR and 50mg Lamictal twice a day.  I was surprised to find how many of
my miscellaneous health problems turned out to be due to their side
effects, particularly the gross state of my skin, which has now gone
back to normal.  The one thing I would really like, though, is just to
be able to have a normal sleep cycle.  All three of these interfere
with sleep in one way or another (apparently sometimes in opposite ways
in different people), so it would be nice to have a normal night's
sleep after 22 years.

>    Did you look at http://efa.org or other medications site, or even
> speak to your Pharmacist (Chemist) to see if that might be a side
> effect needing attention?    Even if you had contacted the Dr. by
> phone, they could suggest, e.g. spacing the doses differently or
> adjusting some up or down as result of your experience.

The Medline site lists "aching muscles or joints" under "side effects
that usually go away, but check with your doctor if they continue or
are bothersome".  But in the package insert, it says:

"If patients taking zonisamide develop severe muscle pain and/or
weakness, either in the presence or absence of a fever, markers of
muscle damage should be assessed, including serum CPK (creatine
phosphokinase) and aldolase levels. If elevated, in the absence of
another obvious cause such as trauma, grand mal seizures, etc.,
tapering and/or discontinuance of zonisamide should be considered and
appropriate treatment initiated."

No indication of what's actually happening in that case though.  I
already had my CPK level checked and found to be elevated (~900 vs.
200-250 normally).  Unfortunately because this wasn't listed in the
regular drug information I didn't link it to the drug at the time, and
even though I've seen three doctors about the muscle problems and
always told them what I was taking they never showed any curiosity
about it (how much I was taking, when I started relative to when the
other problems started, etc.), which is very irritating.  So I'm hoping
that the two weeks between that CPK test and this appointment in a
couple of days haven't done some permanent damage.  I haven't got
severe muscle pain or weakness, so hopefully they're only talking about
extreme cases of the "aching" side effect.

>     Prompt stopping of several of the meds. (including the Tegretol you
> once had), can aggravate seizure control, so any dose changes you did
> should be done with assistance of the Doctor.

Yes, I'm well aware of that.  I wasn't talking about stopping cold
turkey tomorrow, but tapering off.  Tegretol was actually very easy,
because it's eliminated so quickly; even Tegretol CR is pretty much
gone within 2 days.  Zonisamide has to be tapered at an interval of
about two weeks per 100 mg, because it takes so long to be eliminated.

>     Keep us 'posted'  -- lots of people read here, and can benefit from
> your experiences.

I will; it seems I'm the only one here taking zonisamide, so I'll keep
you informed on how it goes.  Other people have had strange reactions
to it (hallucinations, talking to green worms crawling up the walls,
etc.), but fortunately I haven't had anything like that.

Karl
Sofia - 26 Oct 2006 01:07 GMT
On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 11:04:33 -0700, knm956 wrote:

>>    You should tell the Dr., when you see them, as you might? be coming
>> off the therapeutic levels during the night, and the cramps or pains
>> could be result of 'thrashing' ? or restless sleep.

Well it's certainly true that we're all individuals, as I've been mixing
and matching my meds for over 30 years now, and nowadays am on tegretol,
keppra, and zonisamide twice daily, but I think drowsiness and excessive
sweating, and insomnia have to be the only really horrid after-effects
I've suffered from my meds. I don't think I can't ever remember having
cramps - but maybe because this could be because as Jim pointed out, I
also take a multivitamin pill which contains magnezium!

Sofie

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