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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Epilepsy / June 2006about arguments
Hello all, Partials, I put this in it's own thread so it would be easier for you to read it at your leisure or when you feel you have time. Anyway, the reason I'm writing is that we had stimulating debate. A kind of debate that that seems to have been lost on the Internet. While we didn't agree with each other on many points neither of us used harsh words to make our point. In a debate like that both sides walk away with something of value. Thank you.  SignatureDave Keays Hi Dave - Having not been present for the interchange you refer to, I wonder if you might share some of the more salient points. Thanks, Tim > Hi Dave - Having not been present for the interchange you refer to, > I wonder if you might share some of the more salient points. > > Thanks, Tim The thread "This makes me angry!". My take: * The OP felt he was treated badly by a nurse at an EFA meeting. * Many people sided with the EFA and pointed-out his errors. * Partials felt that the OP was responded to rudely. * In a long sub-thread she and I argued not only about whether there was rudeness in the posts but whether harshness is ever appropriate. SignatureDave Keays Howdy Dave! BTW: GREAT name... Unfortunately, some people consider anything other than a gentle pat on the head and a: "There there deariee... everything will be ok" to be "harsh words. Sometimes a good swift kick in the arse is necessary. There's a BIG difference between "SUPPORT" and "PITY." Sometimes pointing out the STARK reality can be misinterprited as harshness if somebody doesn't want to (or isn't ready to) face the facts. In such cases, all you can say is: "Welcome to the REAL world!" Dave > Hello all, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Thank you. > Howdy Dave! > > BTW: GREAT name... I didn't choose it. Anyway, remember that the reason for this thread is to say I really appreciate the debate. It was a wonderful weekend. The only problem is that I was planning on finishing another chapter in "History of God" by Karen Armstrong. Once I'm finished with the book I'll be posting here some questions about others thoughts on spirituality and nuerology. Now on to your comments. > Unfortunately, some people consider anything > other than a gentle pat on the head and a: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > necessary. There's a BIG difference between > "SUPPORT" and "PITY." Not everybody seems to know how humiliating it is to get pity. But it does make the giver feel good and sometimes I wonder if that is the main motive (sometimes, *not everytime*) The commonly accepted model of charity requires that the person on the receiving end to accept being subordinated and substandard to the giver. In other words, you only get help if you beg well. That is the reason I'm against so many "charitable" organizations. Being on the receiving end of their work has the same effect on your ego as a hammer does not a chicken egg. And you can't scramble anything afterwards 8^). > Sometimes pointing out the STARK reality > can be misinterprited as harshness if somebody > doesn't want to (or isn't ready to) face the facts. As helpful as "Stark reality" has been to me and others, it doesn't work when someone is not ready for it. I would stake a guess that most if, not all, people in this group have gone those stages. It's like mourning and the stages of acceptance. When someone is still in the "black garments" stage of acceptance, I watch my tongue very closely (my neck really hurts afterwards!). For the same reasons I hold the rough words until after I am convinced it is needed, acceptable, and useful. > In such cases, all you can say is: > "Welcome to the REAL world!" You said it before: too harsh for some. > Dave > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> Thank you. SignatureDave Keays > Howdy Dave! > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > to be "harsh words. AGAIN: YOU DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS.. THEREFORE YOU DO NOT KNOW THE REALITY. WHY DO YOU FEEL THAT Y OU ARE ALWAYS RIGHT? GOD YOU ARE SO STUBBORN. >> Howdy Dave! >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > GOD YOU ARE SO STUBBORN. Please don't shout. As I said elsewhere, people are convinced they were helping. You gave enough facts so solicit pointed responses, but apparently not enough for others to respond "intelligently". I'll bet most posters here are human and their posts reflect that fact. Everybody here has to struggle with the temptation to ignore advice, and to hide the facts from both the authorities and themselves. You hit a delicate chord with most by appearing to do the same. The 12-step style only helped me decades ago when I first learned of the limits society and my situation put on my shoulders. It does not help me now and I only use it in a limited way. There are other forms of support and you saw some. If we knew you were in the early stages of depression we would have responded differently. You were angry and we tried to help you take the next step on a path we have walked through. (Another cliche that makes me cringe.) Don't criticize us for avoiding advice we find useless. I personally use that kind of advice when someone is coping with death or a grave loss, but the group I lead ("Living With Seizures") and the cable show I produced ("Coping With Life") did not. Some would say that they focus on making lemonade but that cliche is too cute for me. You were up against personal barriers I have only seen broken with determination. A kind of determination that is sometimes seen as stubbornness since it goes against the grain in many ways. The kind of determination that allowed Lance Armstrong to overcome common feelings about cancer. The kind of determination that allows people without sight to live with humans that rely so heavily on sight. The kind of determination that allowed Carl Brashear to overcome his paraplegia (see "Men of Honor" with Cuba Gooding Jr). I could go on, but you get the message. In conclusion: people did respond with support, just not what you felt was desired and Julie felt was required. Don't say you didn't get support, don't write others off as stubborn, and do consider your anger a temporary coping device. A couple of side notes: 1) I don't think the EFA helps for the exact opposite reasons that you do. However, we both have to admit that it does help some people sometimes. 2) Having a girlfriend means you have advanced further than I did in personal relations. Maybe you should count your blessings. SignatureDave Keays chop > Everybody here has to struggle with the temptation to ignore advice, and to hide > the facts from both the authorities and themselves. You hit a delicate chord > with most by appearing to do the same. I am not one of those people who has to hide the facts. Like I said, I am a safe driver. My driving record proves that. I am not trying to convince a traffic cop. I am trying to convince a group of anonymours readers.....and it does not really affect me whether they believe me or not, does it ? > > If we knew you were in the early stages of depression we would have responded > differently. You were angry and we tried to help you take the next step on a > path we have walked through. (Another cliche that makes me cringe.) I am not sure what you meant by "early stages". But I went thru a lot the past few months, I lost my girlfriend. She keeps sending me mixed signals which confused me even more. So I decided to ditch her forever. It hurts like hell. We have been together for seven years. This has caused me to have a bad attitude toward all women. , i have lost sleep, withdrawn from my co-workers. I have been crying every day......several times. I even thought of suicide. > In Don't say you didn't get support, don't > write others off as stubborn, I feel t hat I am qualified to call someone stubborn, when I repeat the facts over and over, yet they do not believe me. 2) Having a girlfriend means you have advanced further than I did in personal > relations. Maybe you should count your blessings. Dave: that is my point. Those who have not been able to advance their social skills could learn from me. I am not saying that I am a social butterfly, but I do have *some* social skill learned later in life, AND I could have shared with others what worked for me to get some social skills. One I can say right now: Spend as much time as you can with other people. Try to avoid places of employment whee you will be alone....instead, work where you are with others. What I just shared is just the tip of the iceberg. I shared this much just to let everybody know that I could have been an asset By the way, I was a total loner like many others with our condition. until about 10 years ago. ( I am in my 50's. ) I got my first gf at age 43. What I did to get there could have benefited everybody. > chop >> Everybody here has to struggle with the temptation to ignore advice, and to hide [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > anonymours readers.....and it does not really affect me whether they > believe me or not, does it ? I wasn't saying you were hiding anything. I was just saying others have gone through similar thoughts. I might add that any bitterness you saw is probably because of a situation similar to yours. >>> If we knew you were in the early stages of depression we would have responded >> differently. You were angry and we tried to help you take the next step on a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > have lost sleep, withdrawn from my co-workers. I have been crying > every day......several times. I even thought of suicide. I can only imagine how it hurts. Like I said, it is not something I have been through yet. You know more about it than I ever have. By "early stages" I meant the point where someone is still mourning some losses that hurt really bad. I didn't know any details, but after a while I was able to see it was there. >> In Don't say you didn't get support, don't >> write others off as stubborn, > > I feel t hat I am qualified to call someone stubborn, when I repeat the > facts over and over, yet they do not believe me. Please re-read what I said about stubbornness and determination. I have found some stories of stubbornness, er determination, to be very inspirational. > 2) Having a girlfriend means you have advanced further than I did in > personal [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > just shared is just the tip of the iceberg. I shared this much just > to let everybody know that I could have been an asset Those are the reason I wish the Internet and usenet was around 25 years ago. Like you, I have some social skills but they stopped when it got personal. When my seizures were still active, I had choose to work for myself as a consultant/freelancer since I could not hold a job. I think that just getting out and doing something is much better than sitting around doing nothing. I was as extroverted as possible when it came to non-personal issues. When you say "I *could* have been an asset", I assume that was a slip of the keyboard. > By the way, I was a total loner like many others with our condition. > until about 10 years ago. ( I am in my 50's. ) I got my first gf at > age 43. What I did to get there could have benefited everybody. > Definitely. I could still use some dating tips for someone in their 40s. The twenty-somethings around me don't seem to think it is possible. Aren't we supposed to be granddaddy's that can be safely put away in a retirement home? Until recently I was waiting for a friend to decide to take our relationship a step beyond. I would not actively date because I was afraid I couldn't fulfill my part of the partnership. Probably a mistake on my part. SignatureDave Keays > When you say "I *could* have been an asset", I assume that was a slip of the > keyboard. There was not slip on the keyboard. I assume that you mean I should have used "could" when I sould have said "would" TACTFULLY: (is that spelled correctly? ) .... the context of the top sentence should have indicated to you that I meant that I was able, and STILL am able to be a valuabe asset to other patients. . >> When you say "I *could* have been an asset", I assume that was a slip of the >> keyboard. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > . I was not questioning your ability to be a valuable asset in this forum. It looked like either a mistake or a lack of self-esteem. Because of the context I struck the possibility of a lack of self-worth. Colloquially "could" is used as a short for "possibly could" while "would" is used instead of "definitely would". As a Toastmaster I see the communication of doubt or timidness as something that needs to be avoided. That kind of doubt should be reserved for unverified hard-facts. SignatureDave Keays
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