Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Epilepsy / November 2005
Any ideas or advice?
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Pam - 29 Nov 2005 14:04 GMT Hi. My name is Pam and I'm the mother of a 36 y.o. with an interesting history. He had his first seizure at age 18, broke his shoulder and had to have it rebuilt. Since that time he has had five other seizures. Yes, we are talking about maybe five yrs apart. They tend to happen when he is asleep and he wakes with generalized body soreness that can last up to a week. He has, of course, been through all the tests and they all come back normal. Nothing. It is infuriating but he is unwilling to go on antiseizure meds when the events have so far (except the first) been largely harmless and so very rare.
Two days ago he finally had another one. His wife woke and hauled him in to the emergency room where they ran the usual blood tests and MRIs, etc. but still with no abnormality indicated. But he emailed me last night and I'm including some of his comments here.
Since this last seizure, I've been noticing a mild sense of disorientation, which is not a symptom I've experienced with earlier seizures I've felt kind of like a spectator in somebody else's life, observing the half-familiar, half-strange workings of someone else's household, unsure of what my role and purpose are and what I ought to be doing. I'll take the dogs to the dog park or go to the gym or to the grocery store and will recognize all of those places as places I've been many times before and yet it's feeling somehow ineffably different, like it's too dark or too quiet or there aren't as many people as one would normally expect to find there. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but it's making me wonder whether something apart from just muscle strain took place in that seizure.
Obviously, I've encouraged him to report this latest event to his primary physician, but even though it worries him, he's amazingly blasé about medicine's ability to even tell him anything about this, let alone do anything.
I'm just wondering if the story rings bells in anyone's minds in hopes that one of you might have some ideas about seizure disorders that are this rare and intermittent. I feel that if we had a name to call it perhaps we could learn more about its cause, exacerbating factors, likelihood of worsening, etc.
If anyone has any thoughts, I'd be grateful to hear. Thanks fory our time. pam
G.Ross - 29 Nov 2005 15:03 GMT > Hi. My name is Pam and I'm the mother of a 36 y.o. with an interesting > history. He had his first seizure at age 18, broke his shoulder and had [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > If anyone has any thoughts, I'd be grateful to hear. Thanks fory our > time. pam I'm not a Doctor (many of us aren't) but I wondered if they had looked at whether it might be some form of Sleep Apnea? I don't know what the symptoms are of that, but I thought that was related to erratic breathing while asleep. His Dr. should know how to check for that, or what might cause it. (A google might turn something up, if I spelled that correctly, or if others here have experience.) *Many of our seizure types can occur during the night as our guards tend to lower while we're in the sleep phases, while if we were awake we might exchibit no seizures and any auras that might occur we might put off to an aroma at a food court, or a sensation that we've had many times so don't think anything of it. Another choice, if the Dr. thought it would help isolate it, is there's a Sleep Deprived test where he's admitted for 2-4 days, and Wired to a portable EEG device. During that period they will try to keep him awake beyond his normal time he'd go to sleep. That I think works similar to lowering our guards by introducing the extreme tiredness and at that point, under controlled conditions with Medical people around they can watch for any rarely occuring seizure spikes that might present. It's not uncommon for some of us, during a seizure, to tense up our muscles without waking us up, and those would produce the pains and joint stiffness when we awake. The disorientation you mention *could be a form of Absence or Simple Partial type seizure, but it could be a symptom of other things. Do you know the name of any of the medications he's been prescribed. It might not help to post it here, as we're not doctors, but most of the Anti Ep Drugs (AEDs) that are currently in use *someone here will have used and might have comments on. Most of them depend on a consistent dose taken regularly. Tegretol and some of the others don't like being used e.g. for 3 days then skipped for 4 and restarted again. Sometimes they'll produce withdrawal or side effects that are worse than the 'bother' of taking them at the rate the Dr. has prescribed. Also if the Dr. is doing bloodwork, and assuming he's taking it consistently, the results will produce a False Low level and the Dr. might want him to increase the dose when his low level is because of erratic use, not faster metabolizing the pills. I'll repost an older post I have, shortly, that lists about 5 websites I've found useful for general searches etc. The http://efa.org site (for one) has a medications glossary where you can search the particular pills (if they're AEDs) and produce a one page printable summary for use. (Note the efa is a US site and uses pill names common in North America. If you're in a different country, the generic med. name is on the pill bottle and it should find a listing for that, if it can't find the main name. E.G. Tegretol Controlled Release types might include Tegretol Retard if it was in UK or Europe, but they're all Carbamazepine in various forms. His Pharmacy should have given him one with new pills, listing some of this, and if he had questions on their use or side effects, I found the Pharmacist a good source of information on any pills as they get the scripts and potential side effects from the manufacturers. The erratic seizures (or apnea, if it's that) can be hard to trap, mainly because they are so erratic. *Some people here got that type of symptom too, from one of the foods they used erratically, and never related the seizures or reactions to something they had eaten the day before. Keep reading and keep us posted how they're making out. I'll post the older Website List on a separate message thread (as other new people might not have seen the sites also). G./
David Ruether - 29 Nov 2005 17:07 GMT > I'm not a Doctor (many of us aren't) but I wondered if they had looked at whether it might be some form of Sleep Apnea? I > don't know what the symptoms are of that, but I thought that was related to erratic breathing while asleep. His Dr. should know > how to check for that, or what might cause it. (A google might turn something up, if I spelled that correctly, or if others here > have experience.) I'm not a doctor either, but I do have (severe) sleep apnea. The symptoms of moderate sleep apnea are snoring, frequent peeing during the night, and tiredness during the day (but these symptoms are common with many other ailments). I don't think that the described events fit SA at all, though. Using a recording (finger-clip) blood-oxygen saturation meter can give a good idea if SA is an issue (normal levels are maybe 92-98% at night, mine reached 62%, with 58 unaware awakenings per hour to breathe before finally awakening wholly 1.5 hours into the sleep test). I suppose that very low 02 levels could trigger a seizure, but these levels are likely to occur nightly...
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> Another choice, if the Dr. thought it would help isolate it, is there's a Sleep Deprived test where he's admitted for 2-4 days, > and Wired to a portable EEG device. During that period they will try to keep him awake beyond his normal time he'd go to sleep. > That I think works similar to lowering our guards by introducing the extreme tiredness and at that point, under controlled > conditions with Medical people around they can watch for any rarely occuring seizure spikes that might present. [...]
Not a bad idea - it is hard to catch rarely-occurring events otherwise...
--DR
G.Ross - 29 Nov 2005 18:13 GMT >> I'm not a Doctor (many of us aren't) but I wondered if they had looked >> at whether it might be some form of Sleep Apnea? I don't know what [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Not a bad idea - it is hard to catch rarely-occurring events otherwise... > --DR That might not have even been the correct term (Apnea that I used). I was thinking of the condition where someone stops breathing several times during the night, and the drop in oxygen levels causes them to awake with a 'start', then either stay awake or return to sleep and repeat above. Disruption in getting a proper amount of REM sleep, etc. during the night would then make them more tired the next day, and could lower their seizure threshold, even if they wouldn't normally be prone to having a seizure, if they were sleeping through the night properly. That was one reason I thought the sleep-deprived thing could produce waves that would allow the Dr. to isolate the condition as caused by Epileptic events or above disrupted sleep. I assume that treatment of one of those wouldn't necessarily be the same as for the other cause. But it would prevent treating a condition that wasn't there, and missing the one that was. G./
David Ruether - 29 Nov 2005 21:11 GMT >>> I'm not a Doctor (many of us aren't) but I wondered if they had looked at whether it might be some form of Sleep Apnea? I >>> don't know what the symptoms are of that, but I thought that was related to erratic breathing while asleep. His Dr. should >>> know how to check for that, or what might cause it. (A google might turn something up, if I spelled that correctly, or if others >>> here have experience.)
>> I'm not a doctor either, but I do have (severe) sleep apnea. The symptoms >> of moderate sleep apnea are snoring, frequent peeing during the night, and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> awakening wholly 1.5 hours into the sleep test). I suppose that very low 02 >> levels could trigger a seizure, but these levels are likely to occur nightly...
>> [...] >>> Another choice, if the Dr. thought it would help isolate it, is there's a Sleep Deprived test where he's admitted for 2-4 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> conditions with Medical people around they can watch for any rarely occuring seizure spikes that might present. >> [...]
>> Not a bad idea - it is hard to catch rarely-occurring events otherwise... >> --DR
> That might not have even been the correct term (Apnea that I used). I was thinking of the condition where someone stops breathing > several times during the night, and the drop in oxygen levels causes them to awake with a 'start', then either stay awake or > return to sleep and repeat above. Disruption in getting a proper amount of REM sleep, etc. during the night would then make them > more tired the next day, and could lower their seizure threshold, even if they wouldn't normally be prone to having a seizure, if > they were sleeping through the night properly. You used the correct term (it used to be so bad for me that sometimes the sound of the snort for breath every few seconds would wake me totally, making sleep impossible). Normally during sleep apnea one wakes many times an hour to breathe, but without fully awakening and realizing what has happened. This does make for poor sleep (and no REM sleep), and I guess this stress could very well make seizures more likely - but the apnea remains fairly constant over time, so a seizure once every five years or so seems unlikely to be caused by this.
> That was one reason I thought the sleep-deprived thing could produce waves that would allow the Dr. to isolate the condition as > caused by Epileptic events or above disrupted sleep. I assume that treatment of one of those wouldn't necessarily be the same as > for the other cause. But it would prevent treating a condition that wasn't there, and missing the one that was. G./ During a standard sleep test, electrodes are placed that pick up brain waves to see when you are asleep/awake, and what stage you are at in between. It is likely that the same electrodes may pick up at least some seizure activity, if it happens. Electrodes are also placed to detect breathing, arm, and leg motion - and these would also likely show seizure activity. An infrared camera is used during a sleep study to view motion, and a recording oximeter is used to show blood 02 saturation levels during the night.
For sleep apnea, the most common treatment is the use of an xPAP machine while sleeping (surgery is out of favor just now...); for epilepsy, drugs and/or surgery are used, with drugs being far more common than surgery... -- David Ruether ruether@verizon.net rpn1@cornell.edu http://www.ferrario.com/ruether
bugs@bugs.com - 30 Nov 2005 04:03 GMT Haven't they done a normal EEG test on him to see if he is having seziure activity either while awake or while asleep?
 Signature I wish you all the best Tim Wise
www.onepest.com www.askourpros.com
Pam - 30 Nov 2005 14:37 GMT Yes - many times. Even did a walking twenty four hour one, but they all have been normal. I guess you have to just 'happen' to be doing that when a seizure occurs, and with one every five or so years .l . . . Thanks for the thought.
I am going to ask Kev about the sleep apnea thing, though. He has always had insomnia problems and his new wife complains terribly about his snoring - so maybe there is something in that.
> Haven't they done a normal EEG test on him to see if he is having seziure > activity either while awake or while asleep? David Ruether - 30 Nov 2005 16:12 GMT A sleep-deprived EEG is sometimes used to make it more likely that a seizure will occur while testing is being done, as G.Ross noted. Sleep Apnea is an issue on its own, with health consequences if it is serious enough and not treated. Beware of using a full-face mask with the xPAP machine, though, since during a grand mal seizure, one can throw up into the mask and drown. Most people can use the safer nose masks or pillows, unless they are mouth-breathers... -- David Ruether ruether@verizon.net rpn1@cornell.edu http://www.ferrario.com/ruether
> Yes - many times. Even did a walking twenty four hour one, but they all have been normal. I guess you have to just 'happen' to > be doing that when a seizure occurs, and with one every five or so years .l . . . Thanks for the thought. > > I am going to ask Kev about the sleep apnea thing, though. He has always had insomnia problems and his new wife complains > terribly about his snoring - so maybe there is something in that.
>> Haven't they done a normal EEG test on him to see if he is having seziure >> activity either while awake or while asleep?
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